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Nobody said VW doesn't have quality issues. They do, but I don't think their product is as bad as you are making it out to be. VW has an older product line and they are not discounting their cars, and that is why they are being taken to the cleaners by the American and Japanese manufacturers. I was very familiar with VW/Audi products way before I owned one (I hang out at VWvortex a lot). I chose Audi because they are better made and more reliable than their VW counterparts. So far I've had a terrific ownership experience with my A4. Sorry to hear that you had a bad experience.
Differnt values at each co I agree. BUT the new GS and the new IS will change that as well as the cool hybrids and LX470 trucks that youger blingers want. Style is subjective. They sell em without a discount so the ugly aspect isn't there if objectively speaking...and performance will change in fact those co's that put hybrid front drives with gas rear drives in the same car will outperfrom everyone.
I'm not convinced Infiniti has gotten lexus credibility just yet - they just found a young buyers niche only 2 years ago...those weren't young people in those Q's and I's that I saw over the last decade..maybe g20 and then most young people went right to the sentra and saved 15k!
Got worse? Based on what is this claimed? The edmunds review bashes them at times but overall they still find the car more fun to drive than its counterparts.
Two of their complaints I can't get my head around: idrive and lack of nav. iDrive is a snap to use in the 745i (yes I've driven them and used it without a problem) and the new version in the 5 is even more simplistic. Push a direction for a control...oops, wrong way, it's down for X control. Now you know, problem solved.
As for the navi thing...whatever. It's a fairly useless toy. But then again, like iDrive I like to explore and discover things on my own.
Point is, generally speaking (meaning not everyone agrees), people in the auto media believe Infiniti cars are more appealing to the crowd who find BMW appealing. Both have strengths in style, performance and youthful appeal.
Now I know some Lexus fans believe Lexus is best at everything. I don't believe for even a second.
The driving experience is the same apparently - ALL GOOD but the downgraded look plus the money they want...not so sure the market will accept the 5 for that money in 3 years...maybe now but the last 5 may have been the holy grail and may never be reproduced in terms of success. I think the editor thought it would at least drive differently and better. The a-6 for 05 should be an interesting attempt to best the 5 - well see!
And navs are the worst for a car - why o why should a car with 250 bucks in hardware be worth another 2k - I'll never know.
"Point is, generally speaking (meaning not everyone agrees), people in the auto media believe Infiniti cars are more appealing to the crowd who find BMW appealing. Both have strengths in style, performance and youthful appeal."
I think the nissan corp has had this one down for a while actually (recanting here) and capitalizes on what honda and toyota seem to neglect - style and inexpensive performance. At least with the Z car and the maxima..
Too bad the Maxima is no longer inexpensive.
If you want high tech a prius is the way to go IMO!
For those of you with the upgraded bose in a G the tweeters suck and when replaced with polk ex's for $50 and half hour the sound system becomes alive and the imaging is much better. The effectively drops the crossover from 8k to 4k and makes for much better highs with that thumping bass (in the sedan anyway).
PS
I should have bought Best Buy stock on the ipo - those electronic gadgets get a huge markup and just the few that have to be first to get something new support the lower prices later on for me. This desire transcends into car options and premiums paid for them. What would people pay for the TL no blutooth or 5.1? LESS since they wont have bragging rights!
Tek nuts hate me - I still have windows 98 and a glass tube tv!
Exactly. When CR placed the TL over the ES in the Feb issue, they totally missed the mark as these two cars offer different "user" experiences. Not that people won't cross-compare or seriously won't cross-shop them, but - I can't imagine any person getting into an ES330 and thinking they are getting a sports sedan like ride. Nor can I imagine anyone getting into a TL thinking they are going to have a boat-like isolated ride.
The TL is not better than the ES, it is different. Both are high ranked above their common name baseline counterparts, but the ES doesn't even offer a sporty like ride.
PERFORMANCE
0-60 –> 5.7 secs, 0-100 –> 14.2 secs, 1/4 mile –> 14.4 secs, slalom 600 feet –>67.4 mph, 270 hp, top speed 155
Only better than G35, 330i, ES
LUXURY OR STANDARD FEATURES
Xenon headlights, fog lights
Leather upholstery
Real aluminum trim,
10 way power and multi level heated seats with memory seats for 2 drivers. Driver’s power lumbar
Tilt and telescopic steering wheel
8 speaker and an industry first 225 watt 5.1 surround sound system that play DVD and CD (6 in-dash disc changer)
Satellite/ XM radio, steering wheel audio control
One touch windows and power moon/sun roof
Reverse tilt dual side mirror and heated side mirror
Auto dual zone climate control, trip computer, memory side mirror for 2 drivers
Embedded remote control for garage, universal remote for home link security feature.
Automatic dimming mirror
Drive by wire, LSD, Vehicle stability Assist(VSA), Traction control, ABS.
17x8 inch wheel with 235/45 (wider) tire.
COMFORT
Almost every instrument in TL can be operated by voice command available in man/woman voice. For example:
just say to computer “ Radio on”, “DVD play previous disc”, “Climate control off”, “rear defrost”, “temperature up” or “down”, etc.
If the computer didnt hear what you said, it will say “Pardon”
If you say “Dial 123-4567-890" and the car will say “dialing”
If you say “phone book, store” and the car will answer “What name would you like to store”
If you say “list” then it will say “John...Mary....Jim” and if you say “call” then it will ask you “Would you like to call Jim”
If you say “Display current location”, it will say your current location
If you say “Go home” it will say when to turn/ where to go from your current location in voice
If you say “Display nearest ATM/Restaurant/Gas station/Shopping/bank etc” then it will lead the way how to get there.
RIDE QUALITY
The new design and usage of high tensile steel (ding resistant steel) makes TL more quieter than 530i, G35 and ES300
POPULARITY
Consumer report rank TL #1 over 330i in 2004
Motor week named TL “Best sport sedan 2004"
Yahoo news named TL “Best high-tech car 2004"
Leading consumer named TL “Best performing upscale sedan 2004"
Motoring TV 2004 named TL “Best sport sedan 2004"
Car and driver rank TL third but 325i second
Sales report jan 2004 : ES330 -> 5254 units, TL –>5036 units, G35 sedan->3382 units, 330i ->less than 1000 units
Cadillac CTS jan 2004 sales is 3278 units
Folks, feel free to suggest any other category adjustments - take a look at the "What is this discussion about?" line at the top of the page.
I absolutely DROOL when I see TLs, they are beautiful. But the RWD choices (CTS, 3 series, G35) are more fun to drive and substance wins over style for -me-, I know that's not everyone's opinion.
Brian
I too prefer RWD to FWD for any and every driving condition, that said, with enough engineering, most any problem can be solved. Regarding the new TL, it does indeed seem that Honda has gone a very long way to do just that, cure many of the ills that plague FWD cars.
If my 530i were destroyed today, would I opt for a new TL? Hmmm, tempting, but probably not, more likely to go to a new 3-Series, G35 Sedan or even a C320 Sport Sedan.
Best Regards,
Shipo
1. All-around performance (which is a lot more than just acceleration)
2. Price/value for money (what is std and optional, for how much)
3. Reliability
4. Safety
5. Resale/depreciation
6. Ownership costs/Fuel economy
7. Simplicity (no Nav systems for me)
8. Comfort/practicality (I do have two small kids)
I do NOT care a whit about sales figures, keeping up with the Jones, popularity, voice-activated anything, etc.
That is why I drive an '04 Lexus IS300 manual. Heck, it has RWD, LSD, HID, and other things I need to get the most smiles per mile! That is what counts. Affordable, reliable, performer.
The reason I brought this up just to make some people to see what is in TL which is not just bluetooth and 5.1
About category, I think TL has :
1. ownership cost / fuel economy
True cost to own between IS(42k) and TL(41k)
Fuel economy IS 18/24 and TL 19/29
2. safety
5 star crash safety rating with 2 side, 2 front rear head airbag, front side mounted air bag, passengers sensing air bag
3. Reliability
Eventho the car has only been around for 4 months, but Acura/Honda cars mostly to last forever.
4. All around performance (subjective issue but to me TL is more than just acceleration, slalom 600 67.4 mph). In fact I dont do any of the above just to test my guts, but I know what this car has, so it's kinda comforting thought
5. resale value
Dont know yet, Acura/ honda always has a good resale value but with all the improvement I think it would be better. with the car's demand is so high, do you think resale value would be bad?
6. Value / what's standard or optional.
TL comes with 2 prices, 1 with nav and the other without. everything else is standard.
7. simplicity
I guess TL is about simplicity, just voice command it, its faster than having tons of buttons to press
I think we're all familiar with a tire's contact patch. All forces work through it. When you expect the front two tires to deal with lateral forces of turning AND acceleration/decceleration, the tire becomes overburdened more quickly than with RWD where the fronts just have to roll along and steer.
This type of performance handicap doesn't show up in most performance tests. Acceleration numbers are all straight-line. Skidpad g's are maximized under light throttle adjustments, so it doesn't show up too much there. In slalom, a car's "normal" transient behavior is explored and how quickly it can shift back and forth, but the driver is hardly turning left and right in a way that fully collapses the suspension. More importantly though, just like the skidpad tests, the slalom is done with just enough throttle to maintain a smoothe constant speed.
If you want to see where RWD reigns superior over FWD, look at track lapping times. This is where the driver must brake hard, turn in, and blast through and out of the corner. The RWD will be able to get on the gas earlier and harder and gain tenths through the corners. This mimics aggressive street driving more closely than any skidpad/slalom.
Brian
Yes, do that.
look back through the discussion. As I pointed out before, real sanctioned races between cars like the Integra and 3-series don't support your assertion. Search the web and you can find past seasons of ... well ... here's one for you:
http://www.sccapro.com/wc/99/limerock/touring-results.html
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
As one Sports Car International writer noted (Ted West, 1/02 issue, p. 19): "in the presence of anything more than puny horsepower, [FWD] torque steer is just plain abominable and something had to be done about it. As with Audi, Volvo believes the answer is [AWD]."
Very powerful FWDers can reduce, but not completely eliminate, torque steer.
As far as the lapping times are concerned, I don't have much data here at work with me, I will have to take a look at home. I would be willing to bet that the Integra you cite did not have the same power to weight ratio as those RWD cars. My point was -all else being equal- a RWD chassis will be faster around a track.
When super-car builders (Ferrari, Ford GT, Lambo) set out to build an exotic high end sports car, they do so with very little concern for cost. If FWD was inherently equal to or better than RWD, why wouldn't one of them have tried it already? Is Honda on to some sort of voo-doo front wheel drive that nobody else knows about?
And reading over C&D's comparo, it sounds like Acura still has a ways to go till they have the TL handling at its full potential. It finished third because of a wonderful interior and much more power than anybody else. For -me-, the interior is almost irrelevant, any car in this class is good enough. The straight line power is intoxicating and enticing.
I smell a mild suspension update in the next year or two for the TL.
Brian
I think i have found my soulmate!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
In my mid 30s, I prefer half sport and half comfort, but if I am over 45, I might go for a total comfort/luxury car.
If you try Nissan maxima or Integra GSR you will feel a noticeable understeer. I am not saying that understeer doesnt exist in a TL but you cant hardly feel it unless you really go too far. "This time Acura has done a bit too far for a FWD car" quoted. Do you know what they meant by saying that? I tried Nissan maxima and 2000 Integra GSR (and its nothing compared to TL), and it's totally a different experience but still better than the previous altima. There are 5 current report that gave the nod to the new TL, do you think they all dont know about understeer?.
Performance rating in a scale of 1 to 10, RWD may get a 10 while normal FWD usually get 6. If a FWD can get an 8 (G35=10,BMW=9, TL=8), for me that's more than enough while it gets more rating for luxury/comfort/styling/acceleration/snow/mpg/resale value/ maintenance cost, considering that people dont take on corner very often in their life or doing it in a race track. Besides road styles, traffics in everyday's life dont support those kind of adventure.
I buy a car according to my need just like everyone else. 96% normal driving with less than 5% taking on corners which is hardly to find in these days without getting into trouble or heavy traffic on it.
Btw I like the new G35 coupe.
If you wanna buy those sports car like Porche, Lambo, Ferrari, you will see mostly low mileage on it, perfect condition, polished. It shows us that the car was rarely driven and mainly for showing off(self-actualization need). "I am still young and energetic"
Hmm I might drive an EVO/STI when I am 60, I wonder what those gals think?
Come on - if it wasn't for beatuiful women the economic world wouldn't even turn...women are indirectly reposnible for everything going on this planet right now...thus anyone driving an even reomotely "sexy" car has ambitions of impressing someone beyond themselves - even if just a little...
Age? I wouldn't touch an STi or Evo because I find the interiors scary cheap.
Come on - if it wasn't for beatuiful women the economic world wouldn't even turn...women are indirectly reposnible for everything going on this planet right now...thus anyone driving an even reomotely "sexy" car has ambitions of impressing someone beyond themselves - even if just a little...
Chris, to each his own. I bought my car because it's fun. I loathe people who talk to me based on my car. When a golddigger approaches me and asks a question about my car I give a quick answer and leave. At parties I will admit to my Protege if asked what I drive and I will deny the existence of my BMW. The things I own are my business, not theirs.
But that's just me. I would buy the current M45 if it were enough fun as it has exactly the image I prefer: totally unnoticed.
Ever see a Porsche interior?
Quite the opposite - the woman i love almost left when i sold the passat and got the G. Things are better now that I allow them to go places together...
Like the bluguy - I am not out there to impress anyone, i call my car a nissan on most occasions where the person doesn't know me as a car nut. The things blueguys says are the reasons I avoided the 3 altogether. Alot of attention is not what i need...and the passat got way too much i might add...
but I will add that if there were no women there would be no 3 series in the first place
Suffice it to say that these gross over-generalizations about women could not BE any further out in left field.
Could we just talk about the cars and not devolve into this sort of silliness?
By what logic?
Design: Ever see a Porsche interior?
Oh yeah and I love it. Yes, love it. The doors, the console, the seats all feel just right. But remember I'm a BMW person and I adore the way the Germans put together interiors. I don't like the Buick-like interiors of Lexus and Acura. If anything the only Japanese brand I like for interiors is...<gasp>...Infiniti.
Austere is fine. Cold and detached is fine. Doors that are super light (like the nasty BMW X3) or trim that feels brittle (like the Nissan Altima's dash) don't do it for me.
It's all subjective. But to me I couldn't live with a WRX or Evo daily as I'd feel like I was driving a suped up version of my 03 Protege ES with its bargain basement interior.
So back to the TL. 0 to 60 in 5.8 is tremendous. Is there potential for more? What's the CR on that engine? Is that timing set for 87 or 91 octane?
I am eager to see what the 3.6L CTS does with a 6 speed manual in a few months....
Brian