Story is titled "Hobson's Choice: Value versus charisma? Go figure."
Overall rating was $40,628 330Ci= 97 and $33,180 CL Type-S= 96; however, the sum of the 12 individual pointed categories favored the 330Ci by 4 points (styling advantage to 330Ci by 3 points). CL-S won 4: engine, transmission, ergonomics, and value. They tied in 3: handling, ride, fit/finish. 330Ci won 5: brakes, driver comfort, features/amenities, styling, and fun to drive.
Keep in mind this CL Type-S had a 6-speed manual (vs the BMW's 5-speeds) and LSD (not available on non-M 3s). As they put it, the LSD "produces an amazing transformation that conceals any suggestion that it is a front-driver."
I couldn't convince anyone I've helped buy a car to ever drive a CL. I thought they were a nice bargain for the content. Every person I took to see one would exclaim something about Buicks or other bland vehicles. Shrug.
Yeah they were vanilla...but they had nice engines!
Say what you will about the WRX and Evo, at least they evoke a response. Ugly, garish, just something that calls forth more than someone making references to dead GM companies.
Z4 is a flat out bomb. Bangle will be BMW's undoing if he's allowed to continue to contribute his "design philosophy."
As for 3 sales off 25%...ouch! My guess is BMW needs to sweeten the pie and do something about prices. 35-37k for a 325i is silly when one can buy a G35 with the same equipment and more performance for 32k. BMW needs to wake up and do something about the value proposition. They don't have one!
mariner7... You have to keep in mind the impact of SUVs. Just look at Lexus. They sold a bit over 250,000 cars last year. About 52% were SUVs. Their sales of cars plummetted, esp. cars like SC430 and IS300. The GX470 SUV had huge growth. The RX330 is the big seller (something like 92,000 units.) In less than 5 years Lexus' SUVs went from about 0% to over 50% of sales!
Huge reason BMW is pushing X3 and X5. BMW reportedly seriously looking into some minivan-like SUV (which they give a fancy sounding use designation).
riez good points but that's just toyota with bad cars in thier lineup. SUV popularity is falling and cars are in again with overall industry trends moving away from SUV's. That may be short lived if the RX hybrid and others take the world by storm like minivans did in the 80's.
I can't think of a single reason not to buy a suv that gets 35mpg and is faster than a gasoline only counterpart...for the same money
Here's a quote from another automotive website that was posted a couple of weeks ago, on the all new 2005 Acura RL:
"We've learned that Acura will not only go against conventional wisdom and NOT make a RWD, 8 cylinder car, but create a new revolution with the first 300HP, 6-cylinder HYBRID engine!! Wow! Imagine no performance compromise AND 40MPG! Forget the Prius, this will be the car to own if these rumors are true...
The car will be shown to dealers at their meeting in August and be available in the October/November time frame."
That's why I mentioned both G35 & TL went up in Jan. If anything, I was expecting TL to take bite out of G, because both are Japanese. At least so far, that's not happening, because G sales went way up.
Does anyone have numbers for C and A4? I don't expect C to be as affected because it's not perceived as performance machine like 3/G/TL.
TL is brand new so hard to see trends. G35 just added the AWD version. That should boost sales in winter.
BMW, MB, VW, and Porsche are living proof that SUVs are in their futures. Just check out Porsche sales, cars and SUVs!!! Notice how many SUVs coming out or have come out from these marques? Heck, even Porsche is bringing out a V6 Cayenne priced in the low $40,000s and they expect it to account for 1/3 of Cayenne sales. Marques like Jaguar and Audi hurting for lack of product in this area. Saab is even going to the Subaru-part of GM to get their new 9-2 and 9-7. And you don't think SUVs are where almost all the action has been, is and will be for some time?
Hi all, I have been a very very happy driver of a 2001 330i - from the very first batch. Harman Kardan and power seats were options then. ( I got the HK, but kept the manual seats). I have been driving it through my 4th winter now, and never had problem so far (even with the performance tires).
However, there is one thing I have noticed especially when the winter's are colder (below 30F). The Service Engine soon light comes on and stays on. When the temp goes to upper 30s the light comes on when I start the car, but goes off, after a few minutes! I talked to the BMW service guy and he asked me to check if the gas cap is loose (which surprised me, and it wasn't). Has anyone seen the same problem with the 330i's?? I am getting concerned now, since it's been this way a while now.
Re: SUVs and sales. All true for Audi, BMW and Jaguar, but not Mercedes. Mercedes does the impossible by posting all of their sales gains on their car, almost across the board. The C, E, S, and CLK were up 3.1, 30.7, 8.6 and 11.5 percent respectively for 2003 vs 2002. If only they'd get the SUV thing right!
I can't post the link (Edmunds rules), but it's germancarfans.com. MBUSA.com used to do it monthly, but they've gotten incredibly lazy as of late, no press releases from Jul to Dec!
If you add up X5 & X3 sales, they stayed about flat. So SUV sales didn't take away from 3 sales.
The fact is TL just had the best sales month in history in Jan, and this is the 3rd gen TL. For a time it was the best selling entry luxury car, and the new one got the record right out of the gate. I'd call that a trend and an exceptionally good start.
G35, in two years, it only went from nothing to rivalling 3 as the best selling rwd car on the market.
mariner7... My only points are (1) SUVs have become a clear trend even in premium marques like BMW and Lexus, (2) there can be intra-marque sales competition (e.g., the X3 and 3 Series take sales from each other as do the RX330 and ES330), (3) there is inter-marque competiton (potential buyers who didn't like the new 7 Series might go for the S Class or people who think the 330i is too expensive might buy a G35), and (4) you have to take into account general economic and social trends (e.g., in general recessions cause sales to fall and buyers have moved away from sedans and station wagons into SUVs and light trucks).
All four factors must be evaluated when comparing a particular marque's sales over time as well as a specific model within that marque over time.
I am looking forward to driving the new Volvo S40 T5. The car looks great and if it delivers as advertized it could join this group of sport sedans in a hurry.
the Mazda 6 is bigger than the 3-series and the new S40 is almost identical to the 3-series. I'll just list the outside measurements to start, but the inside matches up as well.
330i 176L x 68.5w x 55.7h
m6 186.8L x 70.1w x 56.7h
s40 175.9L x 69.7w x 57.2h
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Wow - they re-positioned the car..what happened to the 60? The 60 was barely recognized in the class so this could be good for volvo. THe old 40 was a joke for even Volvo fans.
THe mazda 6 is big as a 3 but the 3 is small. The 3 is in the Entry lux category and smaller than a passat but the passat nor the 6 will ever be in the same class as 3. So will the 40 be entry lux is the question I have - are the statements simply conjecture?
Below is a website with interior and exterior photos of the 2005 Infiniti M35. I have a 2000 I30 and was hoping that Infiniti would come out with a car larger that the G35 to "replace" the I series. While I like the G35, I was looking for something a little bigger and more 'near luxury' than sporty. I hope they have one at the NY auto show in April.
Anything you see on Hollywood Extra is utter bunk. Some guy set up that site years ago and he's been wandering around since posting doctored photos and such as insider info.
G35 Coupe outsold 325Ci + 325Ci convertible + 330Ci + 330Ci convertible by 2100 to 1500 in January '04. However, I assume that January is not a popular month for convertible sales.
Any word as to whether Nissan will build a G35 convertible?
yeah, they increased the interior size on the 40 quite a bit. They say its almost as roomy as the 60 now. I'd imagine that means a redesign of the 60 to increase that size, then the 80. we'll see.
At the price the 40 is coming in at, and based on the ammenities, I'd have to say its definitely in the entry-lux class. The base model starts at $24,190 and the T5 starts at $26,990 and gets into the mid-30s for the FWD model (AWD info is not yet available).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
So a madza 3 is as big as a BMW 3 and the 40 is now a Entry lux sports sedan at 24K. I think there should be some consistency in the classes so I am not so confused.
They do, it's called the Z Roadster. Not sure there's enough volume for two competing models.
I read on Nissan enthusiast forum that Infiniti dealers want a product to compete with MB SL and Lexus SC, way up market! They also want a smaller SUV to compete with X3.
Malibu...embarassing to the Saabys to say the least. The FM 350Z platfrom should be sold to all manufacturers so thier cars are actually worth all that money.
They do, it's called the Z Roadster. Not sure there's enough volume for two competing models.
That's ludicrous. The G35 ragtop would compete with the 330cic. The 350 roadster doesn't really compete for the same buyers as the 330cic. 350z is performance and performance and wind. The G35 would go after the hearts and wallets of people who want luxury and performance.
A g coupe would look great topless - maybe alot like the Z tho. THe sedan would look like canoe with out a top tho. Audi and BMW make it hard to compete in the convertible niche market for sedans. How many 3 sales are convertible as a % of all 3 sales? It's gotta be hard to make any money...
"Saabys" aren't phased. We embrace the Malibu, as many of us live there. ;-D.
Here is another platform sharer.
Some quotes from www.carkeys.co.uk
Road Test Subaru Legacy 3.0Rn
No Longer An Outcast by Ross Finlay (10 Nov 03)
In previous years, Subaru's suggestion that with the latest Legacy it's targeting the "leading prestige European marques" would have seemed like PR spin from Cloud Cuckoo Land. But since the 2004 model range offers smoothed-out exterior styling, greatly improved interior presentation, a more powerful top-of-the-range engine and even more precise handling, you'd better believe it.
Subaru may not be the class of the field when it comes to premium badge recognition, but the lighter-weight 2004 model, which goes on sale this month, sits even more four-square on the road thanks to its wider track, modified suspension and lowered powertrain.
Together with revisions to the steering and brakes, lower front and rear roll centres, and the advantage of four-wheel drive, all this means that the top-rated 3.0R feels to have similarly priced European saloons and estates beaten hands-down for handling.
I can't think of any immediate competitors at prices in the mid-£20,000 to £30,000 range which could match them for poise and traction on winding or hilly roads.
The three-litre Legacy is the best-balanced car in its class. Driven briskly, it's stable and precise on corners, and there's no need to throw it about rather than hold it on line. Out on the open road, anybody who feels the VDC cutting in - unless during an emergency attempt to miss the tractor - ought to blush at being so ham-handed.
As I said before, if you have driven a Legacy you know you don't have to worry about keeping up with Audi's, BMW's, G35's or TL's in the twisties. The 3.0r might be getting the 6spd MT from the STI according to Subdriven.com
Audi and BMW make it hard to compete in the convertible niche market for sedans. How many 3 sales are convertible as a % of all 3 sales? It's gotta be hard to make any money...
Audi? rofl. Audi's A4 Cab is a joke. It's straight up not a sports sedan/coupe. BMW is the only player in the entry level sports coupe convertible market. With everything from the underpowered 325cic to the monsterous M3 convertible, they have the market to themselves.
I'll be amazed if Infiniti doesn't show off a G convertible for the 2005 MY. It's a no brainer given the way the G sells vis a vis the 3.
BTW, if you've seen any artist conceptions of a G35 convertible, it looks nothing like a canoe (see the impotent Solara convertible for that).
Comments
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Overall rating was $40,628 330Ci= 97 and $33,180 CL Type-S= 96; however, the sum of the 12 individual pointed categories favored the 330Ci by 4 points (styling advantage to 330Ci by 3 points). CL-S won 4: engine, transmission, ergonomics, and value. They tied in 3: handling, ride, fit/finish. 330Ci won 5: brakes, driver comfort, features/amenities, styling, and fun to drive.
Keep in mind this CL Type-S had a 6-speed manual (vs the BMW's 5-speeds) and LSD (not available on non-M 3s). As they put it, the LSD "produces an amazing transformation that conceals any suggestion that it is a front-driver."
0-60 mph: 330Ci (5.8 secs), CL-S (5.9)
0-100 mph: CL-S (15.2 secs), 330Ci (15.5)
1/4 mile: 330Ci (14.4s/97mph), CL-S (14.6/98)
5-60 mph: CL-S (6.2), 330CI (6.5)
Top Speed: CL-S (149 mph), 330Ci (135)
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 330Ci (7.8 secs), CL-S (10.2)
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 330Ci (7.8 secs), CL-S (10.2)
70-0: 330Ci (167 ft), CL-S (178)
Skidpad: CL-S (.86g), 330Ci (.85g)
Lane change: 330Ci (63.9 mph), CL-S (60.5)
Obs. fuel economy: 330Ci (25 mpg), CL-S (22)
But guess which car is still with us (330Ci) and guess which car is no longer sold in USA (CL). The market spoke much louder than this test report.
Yeah they were vanilla...but they had nice engines!
Say what you will about the WRX and Evo, at least they evoke a response. Ugly, garish, just something that calls forth more than someone making references to dead GM companies.
My point is taste, style, fun are purely subjective.
CL-S is only 1 point behind, those rating by C&D seems useless.
http://www2.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=2593
3 went down 25%. G35 & TL both went sharply up. 3 might need upgrade to fend off young guns?
What's with Z4? Went down 75% in one year.
As for 3 sales off 25%...ouch! My guess is BMW needs to sweeten the pie and do something about prices. 35-37k for a 325i is silly when one can buy a G35 with the same equipment and more performance for 32k. BMW needs to wake up and do something about the value proposition. They don't have one!
Huge reason BMW is pushing X3 and X5. BMW reportedly seriously looking into some minivan-like SUV (which they give a fancy sounding use designation).
I can't think of a single reason not to buy a suv that gets 35mpg and is faster than a gasoline only counterpart...for the same money
"We've learned that Acura will not only go against conventional wisdom and NOT make a RWD, 8 cylinder car, but create a new revolution with the first 300HP, 6-cylinder HYBRID engine!! Wow! Imagine no performance compromise AND 40MPG! Forget the Prius, this will be the car to own if these rumors are true...
The car will be shown to dealers at their meeting in August and be available in the October/November time frame."
Does anyone have numbers for C and A4? I don't expect C to be as affected because it's not perceived as performance machine like 3/G/TL.
BMW, MB, VW, and Porsche are living proof that SUVs are in their futures. Just check out Porsche sales, cars and SUVs!!! Notice how many SUVs coming out or have come out from these marques? Heck, even Porsche is bringing out a V6 Cayenne priced in the low $40,000s and they expect it to account for 1/3 of Cayenne sales. Marques like Jaguar and Audi hurting for lack of product in this area. Saab is even going to the Subaru-part of GM to get their new 9-2 and 9-7. And you don't think SUVs are where almost all the action has been, is and will be for some time?
I have been a very very happy driver of a 2001 330i - from the very first batch. Harman Kardan and power seats were options then. ( I got the HK, but kept the manual seats). I have been driving it through my 4th winter now, and never had problem so far (even with the performance tires).
However, there is one thing I have noticed especially when the winter's are colder (below 30F). The Service Engine soon light comes on and stays on. When the temp goes to upper 30s the light comes on when I start the car, but goes off, after a few minutes! I talked to the BMW service guy and he asked me to check if the gas cap is loose (which surprised me, and it wasn't).
Has anyone seen the same problem with the 330i's??
I am getting concerned now, since it's been this way a while now.
Thanks in advance
-Solomon Movva
M
Thanks.
M
The fact is TL just had the best sales month in history in Jan, and this is the 3rd gen TL. For a time it was the best selling entry luxury car, and the new one got the record right out of the gate. I'd call that a trend and an exceptionally good start.
G35, in two years, it only went from nothing to rivalling 3 as the best selling rwd car on the market.
All four factors must be evaluated when comparing a particular marque's sales over time as well as a specific model within that marque over time.
330i
176L x 68.5w x 55.7h
m6
186.8L x 70.1w x 56.7h
s40
175.9L x 69.7w x 57.2h
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I have a 2000 I30 and was hoping that Infiniti would come out with a car larger that the G35 to "replace" the I series. While I like the G35, I was looking for something a little bigger and more 'near luxury' than sporty. I hope they have one at the NY auto show in April.
http://thehollywoodextra.com/infiniti/infiniti.html
Lets hope that the car has a cloaking device installed
It's bunk, move on.
Any word as to whether Nissan will build a G35 convertible?
At the price the 40 is coming in at, and based on the ammenities, I'd have to say its definitely in the entry-lux class. The base model starts at $24,190 and the T5 starts at $26,990 and gets into the mid-30s for the FWD model (AWD info is not yet available).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
And Nissan better make a G35 convertible. A car that sexy must be topless.
I read on Nissan enthusiast forum that Infiniti dealers want a product to compete with MB SL and Lexus SC, way up market! They also want a smaller SUV to compete with X3.
Question if the Mazda 3 platformed S-40 is a entry luz sedan what it the mazda 6?
look at it like a Nissan Maxima vs. an Infinity G35. One is considered luxo and the other not.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
That's ludicrous. The G35 ragtop would compete with the 330cic. The 350 roadster doesn't really compete for the same buyers as the 330cic. 350z is performance and performance and wind. The G35 would go after the hearts and wallets of people who want luxury and performance.
Here is another platform sharer.
Some quotes from www.carkeys.co.uk
Road Test
Subaru Legacy 3.0Rn
No Longer An Outcast
by Ross Finlay (10 Nov 03)
In previous years, Subaru's suggestion that with the latest Legacy it's targeting the "leading prestige European marques" would have seemed like PR spin from Cloud Cuckoo Land. But since the 2004 model range offers smoothed-out exterior styling, greatly improved interior presentation, a more powerful top-of-the-range engine and even more precise handling, you'd better believe it.
Subaru may not be the class of the field when it comes to premium badge recognition, but the lighter-weight 2004 model, which goes on sale this month, sits even more four-square on the road thanks to its wider track, modified suspension and lowered powertrain.
Together with revisions to the steering and brakes, lower front and rear roll centres, and the advantage of four-wheel drive, all this means that the top-rated 3.0R feels to have similarly priced European saloons and estates beaten hands-down for handling.
I can't think of any immediate competitors at prices in the mid-£20,000 to £30,000 range which could match them for poise and traction on winding or hilly roads.
The three-litre Legacy is the best-balanced car in its class. Driven briskly, it's stable and precise on corners, and there's no need to throw it about rather than hold it on line. Out on the open road, anybody who feels the VDC cutting in - unless during an emergency attempt to miss the tractor - ought to blush at being so ham-handed.
As I said before, if you have driven a Legacy you know you don't have to worry about keeping up with Audi's, BMW's, G35's or TL's in the twisties. The 3.0r might be getting the 6spd MT from the STI according to Subdriven.com
Audi? rofl. Audi's A4 Cab is a joke. It's straight up not a sports sedan/coupe. BMW is the only player in the entry level sports coupe convertible market. With everything from the underpowered 325cic to the monsterous M3 convertible, they have the market to themselves.
I'll be amazed if Infiniti doesn't show off a G convertible for the 2005 MY. It's a no brainer given the way the G sells vis a vis the 3.
BTW, if you've seen any artist conceptions of a G35 convertible, it looks nothing like a canoe (see the impotent Solara convertible for that).
The A4 Cab is a beautiful car, and it is more of a cruiser, I think if I wanted something more sporty from Audi, I'd look for something called the TT