Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

11112141617435

Comments

  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    I've driven a Passat and own an A4, and they drive nothing alike, so while they share platforms and engines, please don't throw them both in the same category. One is a family car, the other is a sporty sedan.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Drive a passat isn't like driving an A4. Same platform does not equate to same road feel.

    2001 A4 v. 2001 Passat...

    A4 is 50 lbs lighter, 8 inches shorter and has a 3 inch smaller wheelbase.

    The smaller car will definitely handle differently.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    qbrozen... I buy what I love. I might like other things, but I would've bought 'em if I had loved 'em. I love I6 engines, manual transmissions, RWD, IRS, and LSD. Prefer a sedan due to family. Needed something with great reliability and great crash test results. Other than M3, there isn't anything that meets my criteria. And the IS300 meets them and is reliable and "safe". (M5 would, too, as I also love V8s, but way out of my budget!)
  • pg48477pg48477 Member Posts: 309
    I was talking about cars, it does no matter that FX is a crossover, it still not a car.
    I meant new M45, we all know that current M45 is a bust, just like Q45.
  • moeronnmoeronn Member Posts: 34
    You can say that again... and again... ;)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "It's hard for me to see prestige when I see more BMW's than Tauruses on the freeway."

    Hard for me not to agree with that. But I will say no matter how many more BMWs than Tauruses are on the road, each and every BMW is still a premium ride while the Taurus is not.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Who cares about "prestige"? Heck, we can't even truly define it in a way most of us could agree on.

    Isn't the point to spend your hard earned money on a car you love to drive? So what if others also enjoy it. Maybe great minds think alike? Or at least great drivers?

    Think there is nothing sadder than car buyers who worry more about how they'll be viewed or what their neighbors drive or how many are on the road rather than on what is really important: whether the car meets their needs, is something they can afford, and brings a smile to their face when driven hard.

    Heck, I'd rather drive a late 1980s or early 1990s Taurus SHO with the Yamaha-derived 3.0L V6 and manual transmission than most E46 323i/325i.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Heck, I'd rather drive a late 1980s or early 1990s Taurus SHO with the Yamaha-derived 3.0L V6 and manual transmission than most E46 323i/325i."

    But as I recall, you did just that. :)
  • pg48477pg48477 Member Posts: 309
    sedans don't have prestige, but car makers do. 3 series and C-class cost more, partially because of prestige factor(or how ever you want to call it) of the car company BMW and MB. Why else you think they make M5, M3 and AMG? I'm sure BMW makes much more money on 325 than M3, M is there just to keep up the brand name.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    kdshapiro... I couldn't afford to get a then new Taurus SHO with the Yamaha-derived 3.0L V6 and manual transmission. Back then I could only afford one car and my wife couldn't drive a stick. The '00 323ia was her's. I'd never get an automatic and I'd only have Sport Pkg. Around 1990, I'd have taken the SHO over the 3 Series. It was a great sleeper performance sedan. Too bad Ford let it die a horrible death. But then the new 5 Series reminds me of that way of dying. I fear for the next generation 3 Series. I'm waiting to see the 1 Series.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "M is there just to keep up the brand name"

    M is a way to differentiate the super higher performance vehicles from the flock. It's a successful marketing opportunity that has produced the best in world class sports sedans.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    M just didn't happen. BMWs were hot in the 1930s. The 507 is a super classic from the 1950s. BMW has long been involved in motorcycle and automobile racing. M has nearly 25 years of history. Didn't the M1 come out around 1979? Prior to that great tuners like Hartage, AC Schnitzer, and Alpina worked closely with BMW to build "hot" cars. M wouldn't have happened without the prior history and racing history.

    Audi learned how hard it is to create a high-performance marque. MB did it by buying out AMG. Cadillac will learn this with its V. Acura is trying with its new A-spec cars. Heck, even Saturn is trying with its Red Line! Shows you there is either money in them thar hills or they know the "presitge" turns into sales down or up the rest of the line.
  • pg48477pg48477 Member Posts: 309
    Yes, but dint forget that any company is there to make money. As we all know M is one of the best performance vehicles, but it is not very profitable for BMW. so all I am saying is that BMW build it to promote the brand.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "but it is not very profitable for BMW"

    Is this info in their annual report? How would one know that?
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    "Who cares about 'prestige'?"

    "...they know the 'prestige' turns into sales down or up the rest of the line."
  • pg48477pg48477 Member Posts: 309
    I don't have a link, because I read it in news paper. We all know it's true and there is nothing wrong with that.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "We all know it's true and there is nothing wrong with that."

    I didn't know it's true and I find it very interesting. Doesn't bode well as a business model for other manufacturers then.
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    Magazines and newspapers really have many ways to improve it's sales. There is nothing wrong with it. But in the end facts that can be compared, measured and tested will reveal its truth like :
    1. Performance like speed, accelaration
    2. Size
    3. Luxury features and amenities
    4. Price, Cost etc.
    5. Sales figures
    6. Tecnology
    7. Mpg
    and many other which can be measured by anyone and easy to measure. I believe evryone can see, measure, compare them and the most important thing is agreeable easily by most people.

    Fun, excitement,etc. are hard to measure. Just like Go-kart, bumper-car, its fun.

    If they put TL in the comparo, they should have known that tail-out sensation is a gotta have factor but they still did. And it still won third place. And it will really boost the sales of the magazines. People will start thinking "how, why, what's wrong" etc. and people will start buying the magazine. Very smart indeed.

    Btw there are many magazines that make such comparison and these magazines usually have ads. as other source of profit.
  • lil302000lil302000 Member Posts: 149
    These cars are built to supply an income based market. I have never had the money to purchase such vehicles three teenage kids at home, but I have taken rides in some of them. They are truly nice vehicles. But are we getting the real story with them? Are the owners going to fill out a subjective JD Powers survey on a car they love and paid so much for? Are magazines going to give you the real dirty poop on a car they are paid to advertise? I don't know. They have suffered from time to time with reliability issues. But you are still getting premium features for your dollars. I can only imagine what it would be like to ride in a hand built car with fine leather and premium hardwoods it has to be a great feeling. But I do think that the Japanese are world class when it comes to reliability through out their lines.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Are the owners going to fill out a subjective JD Powers survey on a car they love and paid so much for?"

    I depends, I've always thrown out the JD Powers surveys, even though I have had some vehicles that in the end were super, and in the end were soup. I think if you have a problematic vehicle you have more of an axe to grind. In fact I asked a number of people recently how many JD Powers or CR surveys they ever submitted. The answer didn't surprise me. 0.

    "Are magazines going to give you the real dirty poop on a car they are paid to advertise?"

    I hope they are impartial. That's why I don't based a buying decision on a magazine article. It's just another data point. A first hand reference, others call them anecdotal evidence, means more than the article.

    "But you are still getting premium features for your dollars."

    A truer statment was never said.

    "But I do think that the Japanese are world class when it comes to reliability through out their lines."

    All in all in my experience out of the 5 in a row Japanese vehicles I owned. 1 I had for 2 years, 1 I had for 12 years, and the other 3 were always going back to the dealer for something or another. I'm glad I got rid of them in 3 years. Actually I'll be glad to get rid of the Bimmer. Can't enjoy it lately. Too much traffic and deteriorating roads make it impossible to drive the car 10 feet without hitting fairly large potholes. While I really like the X3, it'll be more of the same with the impossible roads, maybe get a cheap FWD Saturn and take the $18 grand that's left over and use it as a downpayment on a cheap vacation home.

    "Fun, excitement,etc. are hard to measure. Just like Go-kart, bumper-car, its fun."

    Fun and excitement is what I live for. I live my life for the intangibles, how much did I enjoy the food? How much did I enjoy the vacation? While it's all nice to know the subjective attributes, it's the intangibles that make life worth living.
  • raherraher Member Posts: 99
    Motor trend has an article reporting BMW sales increasing 4.5% over last year. The sales increase was spearheaded by sales of the MINI.
    The article also mentions that MINI is bringing a 200 HP version to the US market. I have never driven a MINI but I did sit in one and it reminded me of my CRX si days. It should be a very fun car to drive. Maybe when I finally get tired of feeding my 5.9 liter V8 SUV I will go back to something that is pure fun. We don't have the same kind of weather in the Northwest as the east and midwest..mild winters most of the time so the roads don't take as big a beating.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    CRX si's rule - wish they had an AWD turbo back in '89 with 150 hp.
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    "Too much traffic and deteriorating roads make it impossible to drive the car 10 feet without hitting fairly large potholes."

    Most urban areas suffer from this and it's getting much worse. Some of the benefits to owning and driving today's advanced luxury performance cars are lost to horrendous road conditions. And yet, some of the automakers are designing more cars as if we all drove on race track like roads every day. Here's a good example taken from a recent Car & Driver road test of the new BMW Z4:

    "The one major flaw is the way in which the steering wheel dances wildly in your hands from road undulations. This is the downside of the Z4's newfound handling acumen. The taut tuning and unyielding run-flat tires of the Sport-package car mean every truck trough, pavement cyst, and chuckhole takes a yank at the front wheels and, hence, the steering wheel. Versions with the standard suspension should have less bump steer, but all Z4s come with run-flat tires. Sharp-edged pavement will still send a solid enough thwack through the structure to make you wish you'd swerved around the nasty patch.
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    My point is I prefer a non biased report which doesnt accept ads. which buy it's own product for a test like that. CR is the only one.

    Nothing wrong with G35 being on top but 325i makes me laugh.

    Fun and excitement is a plus but not wise for mature people. It ends quickly in life dont you think lol.
  • pg48477pg48477 Member Posts: 309
    You right about magazines they are getting paid by manufacturers. One source that is not getting paid is Consumer Reports, and they had 2004TL over other 15 cars in this class, like 330 G35 and others.
  • pg48477pg48477 Member Posts: 309
    Why you think Acura makes NSX?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Most urban areas suffer from this and it's getting much worse. Some of the benefits to owning and driving today's advanced luxury performance cars are lost to horrendous road conditions. And yet, some of the automakers are designing more cars as if we all drove on race track like roads every day.

    I only drive my bmw on weekends now so I probably enjoy it 1000% more. I crave the chance to get into it after a week tooling around in a banal Mazda.

    That said, even driving daily in rush hour with my BMW, I never tired of the car's rougher ride, sloppy stickshift and my bellicose demeanor.
  • lil302000lil302000 Member Posts: 149
    I agree shapiro it is getting hard to take an enjoyable ride. If it's not the potholes it's the traffic. I just posed the questions as food for thought I don't claim to know the answers but they seem to have a muddy side to them. I have filled out only one JD Powers survey on a new vehicle, but I am pretty hard on all products vary rarely giving tens to even top notch brands, I feel that we pay to much for most anything we buy anyway so it better be stellar. Toyota and Honda have made a lucrative living on Reputation. I understand that you have had problems with your Japanese cars so maybe this reputation is media built or grounded in some fact. I have owned Toyota before and I did not experience the problems you have had.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "I have owned Toyota before and I did not experience the problems you have had."

    It wasn't the Toyota or the Honda I had problems with, it was the Nissans. However, having said that, with the Toyota, it was the water pump, the generator, the radiator, the water pump, the generator, the power steering pump etc, windshield wiper motors, etc. But all in all over a 12 year period I can't complain too much.
  • lil302000lil302000 Member Posts: 149
    On your Nissans, did you have fuel injection problems? Just was wondering my mom and dads took a crap on their Maxima. Anyway if you decide to go with the property enjoy it, it is a better investment after all is said and done.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Wow, the 325i (43,693) outsold the 330i (9,422) by almost 5 to 1 in 2003. Most 3-series buyers are passing up on what many have argued is the "benchmark" and opting instead for a rather underpowered car in its class, especially since most 325i's are automatics.
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    Most people who buy a BMW 3-Series buy it for the propeller emblem on the hood and truck lid and not for "benchmark performance".

    riez said Who cares about "prestige"?. Obviously, 325i buyers do.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Most people who buy a BMW 3-Series buy it for the propeller emblem on the hood and truck lid and not for "benchmark performance"."

    Actually the benchmark 3-series vehicle is the M3. What does that tell you that the 325 outsold the M3. Why don't you personally ask the 3-series buyers, including my friends why they bought their vehicles. Not because of the propellor, but because of the what engineering the propeller represents in said vehicle. It's a fact folks, lower cost items outsell higher cost items. Look at the ratio of Kias sold to Ferraris.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    The 325i 5-speed manual with Sport Pkg is a wonderful car. The 330i is just that much better.

    Yes, it is too bad that so many buyers buy BMWs with automatics and without the Sport Pkg. But at least these are available.

    But the problem with automatics is pandemic in USA. Europeans buy a much higher percentage of their cars with manual transmissions. But their gasoline is also about 3-5 times more expensive per gallon. What is it, about 90% of all vehicles sold in USA are with slushboxes? BMW does sell a significant portion of 3 Series with manual transmissions. Thankfully, the M3 and M5 are manual only (technically, even the SMG is still a true manual, no torque converter).

    But do I care what others buy? Nope, buy what you love and forget about everyone else.
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    ...that the majority of the 43,693 BMW 325i buyers bought the car "because of the what engineering the propeller represents". There's at least a half dozen cars that can out-perform the 325 for less money, including the V6s Accord, Camry, Altima, the list goes on.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "...that the majority of the 43,693 BMW 325i buyers bought the car "because of the what engineering the propeller represents". "

    You better believe that's why they bought it. You have a better reason? Snobbishness maybe? Ah, I forgot, nobody knows the heart of the BMW buyer like yourself! :)

    BTW none of the cars outhandle the 325, outperform yes, outhandle no.
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    Tough to beat BMW handling capabilities for sure. I guess my real point is that most BMW buyers (especially at the entry level) don't really appreciate BMW engineering and all its attributes. They buy for status and that's just too bad.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Most people who buy a BMW 3-Series buy it for the propeller emblem on the hood and truck lid and not for "benchmark performance".

    I agree that most 25 buyers are emblem chasers.

    There's at least a half dozen cars that can out-perform the 325 for less money, including the V6s Accord, Camry, Altima, the list goes on.

    That's ludicrous. The various V6 sedans (except for the slow Camry) can pull to 60 faster than an auto 325i but their handling is lightyears behind a 325i. Sorry but there's far more to performance than straight line acceleration. I'd rather an auto 325 than to ever suffer daily with a FWD piece of junk like an Accord, Camry or Altima. Power's not worth much if the car understeers into corners and lacks the ability to leave a corner at WOT.
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    Let's see... Who's opinion should I take seriously? blueguydotcom's or the more than 800,000 people who bought Accords and Camrys last year?

    H E L L O !!!
  • cjs2002cjs2002 Member Posts: 341
    question ....

    anyone know the dates of the Chicago Auto show... I'm thinking of taking a run down there?
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    Friday, February 6 to 15, 2004.

    http://www.chicagoautoshow.com/
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    M3 sales for 2003 4687 while in 2002 5625
    330i sales for 2003 is 9422 units while in 2002 11479 units
    What does it mean?

    TL and accord 2004 with VSA(vehicle stability assist) and TCS(Traction Control System) manage to make TL to weave faster through the 600-feet than it's competitor.

    "This makes the TL one of the fastest cars we've ever taken through the cones" quoted from edmund (John diPietro)

    600 feet slalom test result
    TL '04 67.5 mph edmund full test drive
    330i__ 63.6 mph
    G35___ 59.2 mph
    quoted from 2002-2003 Entry-Level Luxury Sport Sedans Comparison Test
    Specifications and Performance
    By John DiPietro

    Honda accord 2004 60.2 mph
    Toyota camry 2004 61.8 mph
    quoted from 2003-2004 Family Sedan Comparison Test
    Specifications and Performance
    By Erin Riches

    These test result proves Acura engineer has done a bit too far for a FWD in a NON-STRAIGHT-LINE test.

    Is this what you mean by handling? or is it just your feeling?
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    Nice work Danny.
  • jmessjmess Member Posts: 677
    Outside of badge chasers, the price delta for the 330 puts it outside the sweet spot for the market ($30-$35K). Base MSRP for the 325 4dr is $28,795 and the 330 4dr is $35,895 and it is pretty hard not to end up with $3K-$4K of options on either car.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    For daily city and highway driving, I'd take the Accord V6 over the 325i. The 325i just feels too sluggish, much like a four-cylinder Accord. In the twisties, the 325i is definitely more fun.

    I wouldn't say that the Accord, Camry, and Altima are pieces of junk, but that's just my opinion.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    How does anyone in here know what the main reason was for over 40K people to buy a 325i?

    As some have said the 325i is only lacking in go power compared to a much lesser "cars" like an Accord or Camry.

    None of these lesser cars will ever "drive" or "feel" like a BMW. Straight-line numbers are not the sole indication of performance. Slalom numbers (not knocking the Acura TL) say nothing about how these cars perform these tests.

    Why is it that these same people couldn't have bought the car for other reasons other than snob appeal, how about they like the size/style/nuances a BMW provides?

    M
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    It is hard to see or compare intangible remarks like feels, looks, style, nuances, pride, prestige.
    Hard to compare and hard to be agreed on by everyone.

    Numbers can be proven by everyone, feelings? I dont feel the same like other cuz everyone is different.

    Size of the TL is bigger especially the back seat.

    I dont even know why 800k people chosed Accord and Camry in the first place. These 800k people might think their car is better than ferrari, who knows? besides people know about BMW for years and bias is a huge factor. They still feel good in them while never set foot in another car.

    For me right is right, good is good and bad is bad. I wont say "this car is a bit slow but it's a famous brand" no offense.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Speaking of the Altima, here are some photos of the 2005 version with a much needed, upgraded interior.

    http://www.nissannews.com/multimedia/nissan2005/altima.shtml

    This bodes well for the supposed interior upgrade in the 2005 or 2006 G35. We'll see.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Pretty darn good. If they're willing to change the Altima's interior that much, I can't wait to see the G35 Coupe. The interior is the only real fault I find with the G35 Coupe.

    I guess the Maxima has to soldier on for a few more years with it's awful interior since it was a new model just last year.

    M
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    BMW completed one if it's best years ever. So to say January sales are down, who cares?

    As far as through the cones yes it's a good figure for the TL. Braking is all over the place look at the C&D result. What does CR quote for it's emergency handling. If all I did was drive the TL through cones, that is that car I would get.

    While CR is the most impartial of the bunch, those numbers don't make any sense to me. My guess is there are some apples to pineapples comparison with the equipment. I fully would expect the G35 to dust everybody in the slalom, which is what I've seen in every other comparo except the CR. That is because CR did not rereview these two models as a magazine would, when doing a real comparo.
Sign In or Register to comment.