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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    "The bottom line for me is that I think you can throw a blanket over these cars in terms of performance in a straight line. "

    In 99% of every comparison I have ever read apples to apples, the 0-100 and the quarter mile went to the G - that says alot. 0-60 can go to anyone on any given day but the real fun and where my purchase decision was made is winding out 3rd..that is well past 60 mph and where my engine and platform shine and seemingly pull away from all competition. I've seen it on the street and I've seen it in the mags. The G pulls hard and leaves many in awe in 3rd gear (i have 5at).

    "As a TL owner it shows me that perhaps the rhetoric I constantly hear about RWD being much better handling isn't necessarily true in all instances."

    No not in all instances but many still. 67 is great for a FWD'er. But since you quote edmunds above here are some other quotes - KDS will enjoy this.."For me, if I'm after a truly sporty sedan, I have to go with the BMW 3 Series" That is from the editor in cheef after testing the new TL.

    Since FWD is for many more than RWD this car should be fine for those folks - there are some more discerning sprts sedan drivers who will avoid this myself included. Driving dynamics are a serious issue in my book and only RWD covers all the performance bases. FWD is too compromising and the reason in the article are stated up front. They are physical laws that cannot be avoided even by japansese engineers at Honda.

    There were other comments on edmunds that the TL is great as long as you dont drive an accord first and get a taste of the platform with about the right amount of power and all the great reason to buy an acura but for alot less.

    And again, why should the G without SP upgrades be compared to 3 with upgrades. I still will take my chances in 5AT form against one on track and god knows i would in 6MT form. Lets see the G35 with a performance package and then we'll compare again.

    Someone mentioned the G was shooting for the stars...dam right and getting there quickly - this is year #2 folks and 5 series has been here for how long. Keep in mind that at 3900 pounds the and similarly sized as G the G is much faster and equally as fast as the 540i. But wait the G doesn't have that intangible no one can explain that only the 5 supposedly has...gremlins? Oh and much more dough and the propeller thingy
  • raherraher Member Posts: 99
    The main point of my post was to emphasize that enthusiasm for the cars we own often clouds reality and opinion is stated as fact. Edmunds didn't say their slalom test result for the TL was good for a FWD car..they said it was one of the fastest they had ever tested.. period. As to race track performance, one of the previous posts said it best...3 series and Integra battle it out for championships in SCCA racing in that class. Your opinion of the G35 is no substitute for facts. Stating that in 99% of the tests you have seen the G35 wins 0-60 and 0-100 doesn't mean anything unless you have an example.
    What tests , where. I am sure the G35 has come out on top in some tests just as the 330i has and the TL. I stand by my original statement..you can throw a blanket over them for straight line performance. The differences are in 1/10's of a second. Having gearing that emphasizes torque or speed in 3rd versus 2nd or 4th doesn't matter if you are measuring 0-60 or 0-100 since elapsed time is what is being measured.
    Gearing is more important on a race track since the car has to be set up to maximize speed within the confines of the circuit. Having a 160 mph top speed doesn't get you much if the straight only allows 140 mph top end.
    I know the G35 is a great car. I would have bought the coupe but my wife couldn't live with two doors. That doesn't mean it is the end all $30K to $40K sedan however as you keep insisting in your posts.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    chris - my take is that you would be very eager to own an EVO. This is the car with uncompromising performance.
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    quoted from Car and Driver Magazine, in a preview test of the new TL, estimated a 0-60 time of six seconds flat.
    0-60 6.00 secs C&D
    1/4 mile accelaration 14.88 secs/100.8mph Car engine
    Chris is right, 0-60 can go to anyone at anygiven days. But 0-100 I havent seen a lot of them, just 2 article.

    TL'04 will start opening those electric spool valve starting on 4700 rpm. that translates into a broader torque curve and significant peak power.--quoted from carguide magazine.

    Since this TL is new, some data is not available and many hasnt tested it yet. Lets wait.

    I cant even test it my self, too much snow out there. Cant wait but I dont want to make it muddy yet.

    Some article said New TL tuned with A-Spec will get 300+ hp, is it true?
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    I would love to own an evo - 10 years ago. If the evo was comparable it would make sense to bring it up. If we are on this board can we not assume that everyone wants a performance entry lux sedan. You are suggesting that performance is very imprtant? You are right which is why IN CLASS I picked the G.

    I am not in the market for a very well placed and put together econo box. Im in my 30's and dont want another car in the driveway.

    Performance; looks; value; size; tortional rigidity; price; and class without tude, and service are my bullets for purchase.

    This is why I turned down a great deal on an A6 - everything was there but performance - oh and the look was getting old and that actually made me not even negotiate further.
  • billyperksbillyperks Member Posts: 449
    Are you insane?

    The G has NOTHING on the 540.

    I am no Bimmer Fan but that 540 is one monster of a car, the G can't even get past the 330.

    Weight or no weight the 540 is a Supreme Car to the G.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Weight or no weight the 540 is a Supreme Car to the G"

    It's not 540 at this point it's 545. :)
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Quoting hp/l figure is completely misleading in our situation. You have to quote the actual hp as realized by the drive wheels! There are tons of efficiency losses. Some marques and models are better than others.

    Real interesting figures are drivewheel HP/l, drivewheel HP/lb, the entire output curve based on drivewheel results, tire efficiency, gearing, and CD. Would be interesting to compare these.

    Too bad manufacturers don't ever quote drivewheel HP! Anyone got a dyno?
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    I have to agree with billyperks about 540/545 but I dont agree G can't even past 330. But that's only from people that I know.

    Some cars are faster than others eventhou they are the same type/model car. Just like my friend's RSX'02, with modified exhaust & intake etc. vs mustang GT but at top speed the rsult is different which hardly can be achieved in street drivings. The results are 2 tickets from IOWA states police. Mustang won.

    How many passenger you have also make a difference during the test.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    "I am no Bimmer Fan but that 540 is one monster of a car, the G can't even get past the 330."

    The 540 is great lets agree on that but as far as actual performance you need to realize what the G can do...and this is outperform a 540 until about 100mph - I've been there and many others have as well.

    As far as the 330 comment you must not have read back very far - even the 330 owners concede much performance and hang thier hat on the intangible BMW is the best driving machine stuff while they admit things like "yeah the G is faster so go get an evo if you want fast"

    330i...puleeeeze - I think the RSX is faster than the auto 330. I'd rather a 325 which is a good value if you want the car and not all the performance - almost what the 330i offers in context of the lastest competition for Infinit and Acura
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    Hey everybody upgrades thier motors when someone in a class behind can keep up. It's aHP war and everyone can add displacement - i thought that went against your values KD - where they just add litres instead of something intangible??

    Let's not forget they are not comparable and the price of a 545 is near 70k...and we are still comparing.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    "Stating that in 99% of the tests you have seen the G35 wins 0-60 and 0-100 doesn't mean anything unless you have an example."

    Example of what? You are suggesting the Acura is no differnt than a G in acceleration. I'd say show me any car in any compo with G where G loses in either stat. gearing, HP, Torque - they all add up to driving exctiement. If you are left behind then just take it for what it is without gearing excuses or some other anomoly I am supposed to have as an excuse as to why the VQ should not be the most respected engine in the 30k car classes.
  • billyperksbillyperks Member Posts: 449
    I understand the love you have for your car as shown in your numerous posts.
     
    I have a TL Type S and not many cars I think can outrun me factory to factory and class for class.

    Last summer a 540 straight out spanked me straight acceleration.

    I know the car is in a differnt class but I thought I could have hanged around with him- NO SIR, HE PULLED AWAY EASILY.

    If you really want to see how the G can go backwards quickly, go up against the 540.

    Remember I warned you. :)
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    260 lbs/ft that has to mean something on street drivings. G35 has been around longer than new TL, so there must have been a lot of test.

    While TL has only been tested a couple times but the result is inconclusive. (All test are based on standard specification no A-Spec)
    0-60
    Edmunds says 6.5 secs
    Car and Driver says 6.0 secs
    An article that I forgot says 5.7 secs

    0-100 by edmund nothing

    1/4 miles
    Edmunds :14.9 secs
    Engine power says 14.88
    Another article says 14.4 secs
    Above that only top speed test but that can hardly be achieved on street drivings.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    I've been there man! It was very even actually - which is my point. I even had the guy ask me what the F I was driving. I have plenty of BMW's in the circle of friends/fam. I know full well what the 5 is about.

    The TL-S is much different than the new TL in gearing and motor and weight and CD. I think I'd expect the results you described for your car. Do you have an auto? Read the stats - none of the 04 cars mentioned (545 notwithstanding) are going to be THAT different really. My points about the G are in context of being the new benchmark as opposed to the 3. These differences are not very big but I will suggest they are consistent and in one direction.

    That said I would expect the new TL to hang with a 540 pretty well. 6.2 is the 0-60 on 540 right guys?
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    Anyway there is no exact comparo between G35, 330, TL, 540. 3.5l engine vs 3.0l engine vs 3.2l engine vs 4.0l engine. All car are good. Depends on who drive it. I used to race a bike Yamaha 250cc but since the accident, I would think twice about going all out. Lets drive safe guys.
  • raherraher Member Posts: 99
    chris..it appears to me you are the one posting that the G can't be beat but don't have any facts to back it up other than it is your opinion because you really like your car. Everyone gets left behind by someone. I am still not convinced that the G is going to consistently leave the other sedans behind since the data isn't out there yet to back up your opinion. That's what those multi car shootouts do. What will you do when you eventually lose one of those stoplight races because your reaction time was a little slow ? Yell at them that the G 35 is faster but the driver isn't ? There really isn't any point to continue to chant the G 35 mantra since you are the only one who appears to believe it. I am willing to admit that they are all nice cars and have different strengths and weaknesses. I am not willing to admit that any of the sedans being discussed is a clear cut winner over the others.
    As to the VQ being the most "respected" engine in the $30K class...respected by who..the owner of the car ? Respect isn't something I give to inanimate objects, respect is for people.
    All I hear is a bunch of bench racing.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "respect is for people"

    And as an aside, I believe prestige is for people, not tires.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    Yes the preacher of 6 speeds. I've put my time in on a 5 speed to understand yout plight in conviving the world that the only cars worth buying are manual. You and KD can spar about that. I dont want to break up with my GF and dont want to sit in DC traffic for 3 hours pushing a clutch whenever I go to NC. If the car was slower by more than .2 seconds or handled less - I'd buy that swamp sale. Get over the manual tranny thing - it's old school now that SMG 8 and 9 speeds are on the drawing boards. Personally I hope that I'll always have the choice to go to personally engaging the clutch or not. You are preaching to someone who used to think that way...as far as troucning me - you'll have to be a much better driver and in our hypothetical world these cars are very even. 0-60 you can have if I can have 0-100.

    0-60 is not a race - you can have your gearing designed to compete directly with the G and then I can get past you to 100 just like the stats show.

    If someone needs me to prove it to them then I'll I have to do is simply READ BACK at all the freaking comps posted already - take a look at each one specifying a 0-100 and quarter. Find any car in class that beats G auto to auto or 6 to 6 and I will concede to you whatever you want. I've been there before and I thought most of you were already there with me. Heres some research - i usually leave it to you guys and believe you guys but am capable I swear.

    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0208_sedan/index4.h- tml

    read the last page KDS - the end of the your "automotive press" says 3's best. This is one of two majors who side with me.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    "What will you do when you eventually lose one of those stoplight races because your reaction time was a little slow ?"

    It happens - a wrx modded got me the other day - to 40 anyway - i tip my hat to anyone with my passion for driving and cars in general. Hey as long as we are free to purchase whatever we want then anyone of us can get the percieved best.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "I've put my time in on a 5 speed to understand yout plight in conviving the world that the only cars worth buying are manual."

    Me too. 12 years worth.

    chris - we know you love your car and if I were you I'd search for every accolade as well. You don't need to convince me, you need to convince yourself.
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    G35 in 0-60
    6.2 secs ->New car test drive.com
    5.9 secs ->Car and driver magazine
    6.2 secs ->JB car pages
    6.1 secs ->coupe Road and track
    5.78 secs ->Motor trend
    5.7 secs ->Motor week
    5.8 secs ->Foster.com
    6.2 secs ->Car Videos

    Acura TL-s
    no data -> New car test drive
    6.2 secs -> JB car pages
    6.6 secs -> Motor week
    6.4 secs -> import-heaven.net
    6.6 secs -> feb 2000 acura CL-S
    6.4 secs -> Car videos
    5.8 secs -> Car videos CL-S

    ACURA TL 04
    5.7 secs -> Car and driver
    5.7 secs -> Fantasycar.com
    5.9 secs -> Modern racer

    1/4 mile
    14.5 secs -> modern racer

    I give up, gtg
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    chris - we know you love your car and if I were you I'd search for every accolade as well. You don't need to convince me, you need to convince yourself."

    I know what I've seen and people here have shown it to me - i'm only magazine racing as we are all over the country and cant actually do it now on the track. I know what my car can do in context of the comepitition..more than I should know. Trust me, I know what I belive and the past year of edmundsing is proof.

    The post above is very nice but the acura is faster and the 3 with SP is faster to 60 - i've agreed. I know someone here has shown the 0-100 numbers so I'll get them and post them while we sit in all the snow they areh hyping tommorrow.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Danny I notice 0-60 times from CR was conspicuously absent.
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Member Posts: 252
    Always the Acura vs BMW vs Infiniti battle. What about the Audi 3.0 Quattro with 6 speed & sport package. The Audi interior and styling alone puts it a class above. Granted the price gets steep 38-40K+ fully optioned, but so does the Bimmer.

    Yes the G35 and the BMW 330 RWD comparison is essential for King of the Sedan honors, but add a few others in the mix. Now we have the G35X, I can't wait to see the G35X vs the Audi A4 Quattro vs the BMW 330XI vs S60 vs Legacy GT (Feb 4th Debut). Great times lie ahead.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Nice car. I drove an S4 wagon last month... kicks some butt. Gotta hand it to Audi for having the brass to do THAT format at $54K. A real stealth performer though.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Don't try to compare the 540i6 to a G35. Automotive press test reports normally had the 540i6 0-60 mph time in the 5.4-5.6 second range.

    Magnificient automobile. 0-100mph-0 effortlessly. Had mine up to 140 mph a few times. She was relaxed and would do it all day long. Not to mention 26 mpg on highway.

    I say this having owned a '98 540i6 and driving it almost 30,000 miles.
  • pg48477pg48477 Member Posts: 309
    I did not said that G35 is pretty fast, but it's not faster than new TL. Engine on G35 does not feel strong after 4000RPM, on the other hand TL has a better feel over 4000 RPM( it feels like it has a turbocharged), it's my opinion so dont get to excited:)
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    I think if I had a 3900# car i would want it to be just what you desribe relaxed. People get bent out of shape at the comparison - that is not to say it belongs in the lux class. The G is not meant to be anything but what it is - a not lux vehicle capable of visceral driving to which the best way I can describe it is by comparing it's visceral nature to that of the old 928's - not the last year or two, of course.

    The G interior was purposefully not too posh - rather industrial and not trying to be BMW while beating the 330i - killing the auto 330i in any timed run, outhandling the 330i, mathcing the 330zhp in handling, beating the 530 matching the 540..and I CAN compare the 5 - the luxury goodies aside the cars have VERY similar sized wheelbases, and displacement. It does not ride as nicely and it's louder and more Z like...thats what i paid for. What do two different cars start with...frame and drivetrain...all else can be stripped out as far as I'm concered except one seat and a steering wheel. What then - cant compare becasue if you get outhandled and outpaced it's not fair.......
  • exb0exb0 Member Posts: 539
    I was driving my wife’s Accord LX 4-cyl on I95 the other day. A 330 and G35 racing each other passed us. The 330 was in front. Two miles down the road both of them were pulled over by a cop. The 330 was still in front. I passed them both.

    So which car is faster? My wife’s Accord. :)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Ok chris you win. I won't debate this anymore because it has become pointless. This has become "a my car is bigger/faster than your car statement." There is room on this planet for all the vehicles in this class, each with a different aspect of prowess.

    The G is faster, despite most automotive magazines opinion that they are at least in the same ballpark. The G can be directly compared to the new 5 series, due to the wheelbase. The G has a more visceral feel than the 3/5 series. And the G outhandles and outpaces every 3 series including the M3. But please take this lightly we are all here to have a good time. :)
  • moejoemoejoe Member Posts: 2
    I am debating between the 2004TL and the lexus es330; I am leaning toward the TL but many of the posts I have read mentions various rattles and/vibratory noises. The ES330 exterior is not very appealing but if the TL really has these various noises, this would be more troubling to me than outer appearances. From those that own the 2004 TL, are theses noises really that noticeable?
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    There is no conclusiveness about 0-60 test. There are many factors that can influence the result. For example road condition, weather condition and driver's weight, timing and reflexes on rowing those gear. Even with the same driver and the same car may not get the same result twice. We are talking about 1/10 second difference. Let alone different driver with different car although it's the same model/type.

    I feel a little vibration also apparently its from the tire. But after 1/2 miles the vibration is gone. I heard we can negotiate the trade with the dealer but I havent got the time. I might do that when snow dissapeared.

    Pg48477, here is the one that you called turbo "TL'04 will start opening those electric spool valve starting on 4700 rpm. that translates into a broader torque curve and significant peak power.--quoted from carguide magazine
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    Sorry, I just aware that I have posted 6.0 secs flat for car and driver magazine. Actually the complete result is on http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_- id=7597&page_number=3

    C/D TEST RESULTS

    ACCELERATION (Seconds)
    Zero to 30 mph 2.2
     40 mph 3.3
     50 mph 4.4
     60 mph 5.7
     70 mph 7.6
     80 mph 9.4
     90 mph 11.9
     100 mph 14.6
     110 mph 17.8
     120 mph 21.8
     130 mph 28.6
    Street start, 5-60 mph 6.3
    Top-gear acceleration, 30-50 mph 10.4
     50-70 mph 10.3
    Standing 1/4-mile 14.4 sec @ 99 mph
    Top speed (governor limited) 152 mph

    BRAKING
    70-0 mph @ impending lockup 189 ft

    HANDLING
    Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad 0.81 g
    Understeer minimal moderate excessive

    FUEL ECONOMY
    EPA city driving 19 mpg
    EPA highway driving 28 mpg
    C/D-observed 20 mpg

    INTERIOR SOUND LEVEL
    Idle 40 dBA
    Full-throttle acceleration 73 dBA
    70-mph cruising 70 dBA
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I agree with the above this is gone beyond the point and scope of my original question. There is no way a G35 is going to outrun a 540i unless the 540i driver doesn't know what they're doing. A 540i automatic driven by someone with poor skills maybe, but a 6-Speed, come on now thats ridiculous. The G35 is like a Porsche 928? Are you serious? Like I said before the G35's interior can be different, but "different" doesn't mean it has to be cheap. That different theory is just a grand excuse.

    M
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    G35
    -------------------------0-60______0-100
    Motor week_____ 5.7
    Motor trend_____ 5.8_____14.28 G35 6mt
    Foster_________ 5.8
    Motor trend_____ 5.8_____14.2__ G35 coupe
    Road&track_____ 5.9
    Car and driver____ 5.9_____14.2__ G35 6mt
    Best stuff.com___ 6.0____14.6__
    Road and track___ 6.1_____14.9__ 6 speed manual
    Nash rambler____ 6.1___________AT
    consumer guide__ 6.2___________coupe leather
    Newcartestdrive__ 6.2
    Car videos______ 6.2
    JB car pages____ 6.2_____16____G35 vq35DE

    Motorweek350z___5.7_____14.4

    BMW330i
    Maximum cars__ 6.0________perf.pkg.
    Motor trend_____ 6.1__14.42_perf.pkg.
    Automotive.com_ 5.4________New perf.pkg No test/bmw claimed
    Automotive.com_ 6.4________non perf.pkg No test/bmw claimed
    Canadian driver__ 6.0________Perf.pkg
    Canadian driver__ 6.5________Non perf.pkg
    Consumer guide_ 6.4________manual
    Consumer guide_ 7.0________Auto
    Consumer guide_ 5.4________manual 330xi
    Consumer guide_ 5.4________M3
    BMWboard_____ 5.9________330ci perf.pkg
    BMWboard_____ 6.4________330ci non perf.pkg
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    So you'd say, "Lincoln is a prestigious person," or "Edison is a prestigious person." But the statement, "Harvard is a prestigious university," is wrong.

    LOL.

    The exact same tires, auto transmission, no brake revving, just stomp on gas and go, 0 to 60. If I had to bet the house, I'd say G, then TL, then 330i, by quarter a car length each. But that's just me.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    ""Harvard is a prestigious university," is wrong."

    Well I consider Harvard to be a "top flight ivy league university".
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    "This has become "a my car is bigger/faster than your car statement."

    Lets remember the original statement that got it all started to put it back into context. I am hypothesizing that BMW 3 is no longer the benchmark or the standard based on performance and "automotive press". Again: The differences as agreed to be minute but the whole argument you have made for a year now or more is that BMW holds the class trophy for sports sedan superiority and nothing comes close. I say based on nothing real anymore ~ your just used to saying it and rightfully so until 2002.

    THings changed when the japanese stopped putting G20's out there and called them 3 beaters. You 3ers got used to having no competition - it doesn't suck for the consumer whose a fan of any competitor.

    "A 540i automatic driven by someone with poor skills maybe" I'm sure it was an auto and I'm sure the poor guy just pressed on the gas real hard and his skills didn't get in the way too bad. Check another stat on the G and compare - 50-70 and 5-60 numbers are very good for the Z car platform. You guys may find value in many things about many cars - I find value in the thrust and handling that no other car can best in class.

    And a G coupe vs a 928 would be very interesting. The z has been compared to the GT3 - anybody wanna get po'd about that - people have been getting po's at nissan since the 240.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "I am hypothesizing"

    I would like to focus on the word "hypothesizing". It is your opinion and I'll leave it at that. Listing the current awards for the 3 series, where the articles still say the 3 series is the benchmark is useless, because you believe otherwise. I'm not out to change your opinion, only to show there is a disconnect betwee your opinion vs. the auto mag industry opinions.

    "A 540i automatic driven by someone with poor skills maybe" I'm sure it was an auto and I'm sure the poor guy just pressed on the gas real hard and his skills didn't get in the way too bad. Check another stat on the G and compare - 50-70 and 5-60 numbers are very good for the Z car platform."

    Let's compare a Cayenne Twin-turbo with a G or Z" This vehicle can dust both of these. On the track/street and off-road. Since it seems not to matter what we are comparing to the G, how much it cost or how much it weighs, let's us this vehicle as a benchmark. Or better yet, let's use an M5 or even an M3, or even a ZHP. Wait, let's even use the new Acura 2004 TL. Since the G/Z platform compares favorably in price, handling, speed, acceleration to every single vehicle, FWD/RWD/NA and forced-air.

    "The z has been compared to the GT3 "

    Show me where chris. A vehicle that can go to 60 in under 4 seconds with a top speed of over 200 mph, has been compared to a vehicle that can get to 60 in about 5.5 slower than an WRX/EVO with a lower top speed than a WRX/EVO, has been compared to a GT3? OK. Doesn't make sense to me. But if someone said it, it's gotta be the case. I read somewhere the ZHP has been compared to the Bugatti, wow am I impressed at BMW for producing a vehicle that gets mentioned in the same breath as a 1000 hp vehicle.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    I'll show you where. In the newest evo, they went to Japan to test drive Nismo'ed 350Z and G35coupe.

    They tested the tamest nismo, and say it's about the rawest you want to drive in the streets. At the end of the article, this is what the say about the Z, and I'm paraphrasing: "it puts the scare to the GT3, at half the price."

    I'm sure they didn't mean in a straight line, because Nismoed Z is not any more powerful than regular Z. But they meant on a racetrack.

    And while you're reading evo, kd, check how they think reg Z is much more of a performance driving machine than Z4 3.0 in the COTY contest.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Nismo'ed 350Z and G35coupe"

    That is not a USA certified street-legal vehicle. Is it? Or is it a USA certified vehicle with modified suspension? If it is I stand corrected. But if not I discount these opinions until tested in the good ol' USA with good ol' USA license plates, not pre-production vehicles. Not only Nissan, but BMW as well. The point is it wasn't said about any vehicle, currently on sale in the US. Not future vehicles, but current vehicles. This is an important point that wasn't communicated in the post.

    "And while you're reading evo, kd, check how they think reg Z is much more of a performance driving machine than Z4 3.0 in the COTY contest."

    I'll pick it up, thanks for the lead.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    NISMO is starting to offer its products to USA for first time, I believe. So yes, they will become US legal soon. And those Nismos rely on suspension and dynamics, because the mod Z only has 291 hp. And strangely enough the mod G35c has less than the US G35c, undoubtedly because the JDM G35c is not as powerful.

    Just to show you, products from Nissan FM platform can hang with much much more expensive German machinery.

    I'd trust testing from those hardcore Brit magazines much more than from individual manufacturers, which has lots of axes to grind.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Just to show you, products from Nissan FM platform can hang with much much more expensive German machinery."

    Correct, with mods ala M. Adding a supercharger to the M3, ZHP, with suspension upgrades, would get a commesurate increase in power/handling capabilities as well. Maybe that's why BMW doesn't offer performance upgrades, it wants you to buy their cars. But Nissan needs to compete, because it only has one model. Acura has is R-spec(A-spec) with 300hp. Everybody's doing it.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    "Correct, with mods ala M"

    What? The mods are suspension only in the GT3 comparison! The platforms, horsepower notwithstanding, are the basis for the argument that the 3 is now bested.

    It's not a stretch to see why when you look at the global accolades this platform gets. I'd take plain z and a carrera to the track anyday and take my chances in either. That car shares 90% of underpinnings with G. The engine HP wars don't mean a dam thing here you are changing the subject. The platforms being compared are in the same class and the accolades falling on the G and her cousins are telling - with non M type of upgrades KD.

    As for the A-spec - still FWD - still low torque - its only another 30hp - another 30 over the accord's that make it 60 too many. I bet those fat sweet tires will help - what are those 295/21's??
  • biggie2biggie2 Member Posts: 45
    Why is everyone so worried about if the G is a tad bit better than the 3 series?

    Simple truth is, the G or Z will never reach the pinacle of true vehicle perfection that the 3 once had. Nothing could touch it for four or so years there. The 3 series is an old car, the G is much newer. The fact that the 3 series kept atop the extremely competitive automobile industry for so long is a testament to just how good this car really is. As long as BMW doesnt screw this car up, i am sure the next 3 series will blow every competing vehicle away once again.

    I personally feel that the advantages of having a G35 over a 3 series is one: price, and two: having a much more rare car. I hardly ever get to see a G, while i probably see two 3 series everytime i go out.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    chris -

    1. It aint anything till it's sold in the US and is approved by the govt.
    2. As mariner said, hp was tweaked also. No problem with that, but as I say, mods ala M.
    3. You are talking about the 350Z, which is two seater and the G35 coupe. Compare the G35 coupe to the 330cic with performance package. 350z to the Z4. The M3 is still untouchable. In your fervor to proclaim the 3 series dead, you are comparing a two seater to a 4 seater and citing references to products not being sold in the US. I guess you need to do that, because it can't happen any other way.
  • billyperksbillyperks Member Posts: 449
    Not even the Auto 540i.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    whatever comp you want KD I'll feel pretty good running even with G auto sedan against a zhp 4 door 6 speed. You want to bring the 2 doors into it feel free - it only gets better. I never crossed a 2 or a 4 door. The carerra and the GT-3 are two seaters compared to a 2 seat Z. Let me know where you got crossed and I'll help you out.

    G is not that much better but it did put the benchmark on its ear and we all reap the benefits....the only point I have ever really been adamant about is the G dethroning 3. The 3 can't deserve the becnhmark as many agree. We dont have to agree - we just have to make sure we are happy with our choices - and they get harder each year. I cant wait for 2007 or 2008. I may be in a BMW then - the whole analysis starts over then on level playing field and I get to enjoy the process again. It may be a Hyundia by then too. The less marquis the better. Sleepers rule.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "You want to bring the 2 doors into it feel free"

    Thanks chris for your help. Let's compare a drag racer against the Z and see who wins. Seems like you like to bring everything into the mix, even though you can't buy it and ride down the street with it. Heck in 2007 I may even be brave enough to go over to the Nissan/Infiniti side of the house. I'm not proud, if BMW can't do it, someone else can. A RWD Acura and better branded RWD Lexus, if done properly, would trounce the Z on the Japan Inc playing field. I hope Nissan is watching, because Lexus knows how to do it and has the cash. That is really the car I want to own, a Lexus "branded" BMW, I won't mind paying a premium for it either.
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