Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

buddhabman

Don't you think people see their car as projecting their lot in life. Or is there a disconnect for most people? Philosophy of consumerism!

chrisboth

I dont know about that...we just all want the biggest &^@! and want to brag we have it.

IMO the people who have biggest baddest cars - way more than we are paying for entry lux sedans - are the ones who if they hadn't spent all the $ would be millionares and look like they are while the ones who drive an accord may just be millionaires as they have been prudent but seem to be the avg joe.

The wealthiest people I know act like they are poor and drive VW's and vans. The best looking cars I can point to in any friends garage, well, that guy is buying gas on his credit card so he can afford the payment.

And some in my fam think i'm an asss for buying a 35k car...to them I say - it's 3k more than the loaded passat i thought was prudent...and I get 10 times that in value from the pleasure it gives me to drive it...Most of us on a board like this probably actually are nuts about cars..

kdshapiro

"way more than we are paying for entry lux sedans - are the ones who if they hadn't spent all the $ would be millionares "

Not true..I waited long time before I got my car and I could have afforded one back in the day due to smart investing.

"The wealthiest people I know act like they are poor and drive VW's and vans"

Some of the ones I know drive Rolls....to each their own.

aciampi

One friend of mine owns 11 car dealerships and one bank. He is very wealthy and drives a 1999 Chevy S-10 pickup truck.

Another friend of mine can't rub two nickels together and at the time of purchase he was unemployed. He has a 2001 BMW M3.

I actually did a research project on this same topic for a psychology class with test subjects between the ages of 18 and 50 and the only hard conclusions I could come too was that the younger drivers made their purchases based on the status that particular name brand brought them. And the older drives were more apt to makes their purchases based upon performance and driveability.

Personaly I want looks, performance, handeling and every possible toy inside for a reasonable price. Which is why I purchased my 04 TL with Nav

kdshapiro

"It can go either way "

It goes all different ways all of the time.

I wanted a BMW for the longest time and finally got one. There is no turning back and no substitute. It may be not be the most luxorious or fastest. But what it does, it does best and that's what I love about it.

jmess

I too thought I wanted a BMW but bounced on the price and lack of LSD in the 330. I could have easily dealt with the price but I couldn't forgive BMW for leaving out the LSD. So it was pretty easy to buy the IS300 where things like HIDs, premium sound, and metallic paint are standard equipment. The LSD was a $330 option; quite a bargain.

blueguydotcom

Don't you think people see their car as projecting their lot in life. Or is there a disconnect for most people? Philosophy of consumerism!

I hate what my BMW represents to too many people. I drive an 03 Pro most often and only use the bimmer on the weekends. Even then I've had many people ask me if the 330i is my car as I'm loading things into it and such. Guess my usual weekend dishevled appearance doesn't jive with the concept of a bimmer owner.

Shirt with holes, unshaven, barely brushed hair and frayed/worn shorts/jeans fits my usual weekend look.

BTW, someone mentioned paying cash for gas. That's just silly. Credit cards give you cash back and or rewards for using them. Using the card is free, the expenses will be incurred anyway, so why not get something for your expenditures? I use cash as little as possible because the return on cash is nothing but the product.

Lastly, I'd agree with KD. I've wanted a Bimmer since 98 when the current body/setup hit the streets. I drove everything and ended up with the car that I think fits me perfectly. Nothing quite like loving your car.

kdshapiro

"I hate what my BMW represents to too many people."

Let's extend that concept. I hate what Rolls is to many people, I hate what Ferrari is to many people, I hate what Maybach is to many people, I hate what Mercedes is to many people...oh well I could go on.

LIke it or not it's a diverse world, thank the Lord, the amount of money any one person has, does not affect the handling of any one car. That is what we are really discussing here right?

One car vs another? Not one car buyers money vs another car buyers money? Or one car buyers snobbishness vs another car buyers snobbishness?

It makes you feel really good to say (due to jealously IMHO), there's a person worth a fortune, driving a 10 year old Hyundai. Some people flaunt it, some don't. Either way, it's theirs to do with as they want, and I'll do with mine what I want, buy the car I want, for my own reasons.

kennyg5

KD, you are right, as always. Different strokes for different folks, and different people buy and drive different cars for different reasons. Just as some guys prefer blondes but others prefer brunettes. But you got to get rid of your 10 year old Hyundai example, because that is a cheap, unreliable, unsafe POS, which IMHO, is not preferred by anyone except for those who cannot afford something better :-)

shenkar

"kd...you got to get rid of your 10 year old Hyundai example, because that is a cheap, unreliable, unsafe POS, which IMHO, is not preferred by anyone except for those who cannot afford something better.)

Now, that's what I'm saying. Thank youuu, kennyg5. {;->

kdshapiro

“If you are intensely aware of the difference between what is simply good and what is genuinely excellent, if you love to drive yet are constrained to run a four- or five-seat vehicle...then BMW 3-Series cars are the perfect answer.” BMWs best-selling offering, the 3 Series, is available in Coupe, Convertible, Sedan and Sports Wagon versions."

The above quote was from a press release from BMW, featuring a quote from Automobile magazine as the 3-series racked up another all-star award for the 12th year in a row.

chrisboth

Wanna see some G35 press releases? Are we supposed to be impressed by BMW's marketing people? If there's any doubt who the new leader is read some independent press.

kdshapiro

"Are we supposed to be impressed by BMW's marketing people?"

This quote did not come from BMW marketing. This quote was taken from the Feb. 2004 issue of Automobile. BMW marketing was just quoting this snippet from the article in their press release.

raher

Press releases ARE marketing. Ever seen a press release by an automobile manufacturer talking about how another car is better ? Acura could use the CR article in it's press release and Infiniti could use an article talking about the G35. Take them for what they are worth. They are worth the writers or the editors opinion. What really matters is are they selling the car. Acura is apparently selling the TL better than any of their previous TL's even without an endorsement from Automobile magazine.
I would pay to see five people in a 3 series..it must look like one of those circus cars where all of the clowns get out of a very small car.

shipo

I would pay to see five people in a 3 series..it must look like one of those circus cars where all of the clowns get out of a very small car.

Hmmm, I don't know about that, I had five adults in my former 3-Series any number of times. I'm not going to lie to you and say that they had all the room in the world, however, they claimed to be comfortable enough.

Best Regards,
Shipo

kdshapiro

"What really matters is are they selling the car."

Isn't that the point. It doesn't matter for example, why people don't understand why BMW sells boat loads of their 3-series, just that they do. However, in the pursuit of automotive excellence the press provides a function in determining in a more unbiased fashion, than you or I debating the merits of a particular vehicle or aspect of a vehicle.

The reason I posted that information, is to show in contrary to some other opinions that the 3-series is a has-been, the automotive press still regards it as a benchmark in the world of entry level luxury sport sedans. This is not in one magazines opinions, but others as well. Looking at automotive opinions is just one way of level setting the conversation.

Now you could go say you don't believe that vehicle is for you or that it doesn't have any value to you, or other vehicles do some aspects in the world of sports sedans better. I would more than agree. But you can't discuss sports or sporty sedans, while ignoring the obvious, which is the overall handling and not focus on one set of numbers.

riez

Pretty much anytime the automotive press (rightly) touts the 3 Series, they normally are talking about either the M3 (a most awesome car!) or non-M cars with (1) manual transmission and (2) Sport Package.

A 325i automatic without Sport Pkg is a rather expensive and somewhat mundane car. There is really nothing unique about it other than the marque badging. But it lacks those critical features (1) and (2) that create the "difference between what is simply good and what is genuinely excellent."

If you LOVE to drive there is only one way to get a 3 Series: Sport Package and manual transmission. All the others are pretenders as serious all around sport sedans.

And IF BMW was so serious about the love of driving and creating the true existential difference between good and excellent, where is LSD??? That speaks volumes. Only M3 and M5 have LSD. Does BMW think the other buyers aren't smart enough to figure it out? Or do they know something about their buyers that we don't?

But guess what percentage of 3 Series, esp. sedans, are sold with automatics? Bet it is at least 60 percent. And what percentage of 3 Series sedans have Sport Package? Doubt it is over 25 percent. And what percentage of sedans are both manual transmission and Sport Package? Doubt it is over 15 percent.

So the vast majority of 3 Series sedan owners must be willing to settle for a heck of a lot less than they could have purchased and could be driving?

kdshapiro... Forget what your 3 Series is. Automatic? Sport Pkg?

kdshapiro

"If you LOVE to drive there is only one way to get a 3 Series: Sport Package and manual transmission. All the others are pretenders as serious all around sport sedans."

Sorry riez gotta agree&disagree on this one at the same time. Practicality rears it ugly head here and I wouldn't drive a manual sitting in the traffic I sit in every morning. I do not have the luxury of an M3 as a weekend car at this point, so my non-manual non-sport equipped vehicle will have to do.

If that makes me a pretender so be it. If it makes chrisboth a pretender also, so be it. If the vehicle doesn't have LSD makes it a pretender, so be it.

Even if I purchased a less expensive vehicle an auto tranny would be sure to follow, except when I can get that M3 as a non-snow, non-traffic weekend car.

igiban

is a very good driving machine but not a decent riding machine. It's small in rear and hard on all seats. The again, most pure sports cars are not very comfortable. TL may not be as good a driving machine but is more practical than B3 as a 'sedan' if you are not the only one in the car all the time.

riez

kdshapiro... You are kidding, right? You bring up the existential difference between good and excellent and then say: "practicality rears it ugly head here...sitting in the traffic I sit in every morning"???

That may mean you have to have an automatic non-Sport Pkg but that does NOT mean that said car is "excellent". It is good. But it can't hold a candle to a manual Sport Pkg 330i. (Just compare the tires. And have you ever looked at the base tires on a 325i non-Sport? Garbage.)

While a great philosopher said "Hell is other people", he might have said "Hell is being stuck in traffic." NO car stuck in traffic is doing what it is meant to do. Provide driving pleasure. It is then just a mere vehicle.

If you sit a lot in traffic, buy 2 vehicles. Get yourself a Honda Civic 4-cyl for traffic and a Honda S2000 or Mazda Miata for fun. Might cost you as much as a loaded 330i.

kdshapiro

The thing is I would rather forgo the sit in Civic mentality with an excellent weekend car, than have a nicely equipped all-around model. I just had a ride in a Civic, no thanks, I'll keep mine.

It's one of those little compromises one makes in life. The M3 is the ultimate GT and we all know it, yet $63K is a little high for me for a car that cannot be a daily beater.

The great thing about BMW is that they recognize the purchaser might want to make compromises like I did and provide options for every occasion.

riez

The M3 costs as much as a loaded 530i. Seems worth it.

kdshapiro

Ragtop is about $63K.

riez

you want a $63 near super-car and you drive a 330i automatic non-Sport? Makes no sense to me.

But I can't explain people. They pass up the excellent for the good.

I couldn't imagine spending $40K on any vehicle, let alone one that spent a lot of time stuck in traffic. (I might either move or buy another car.) But then my work commuter car is a FWD Hyundai Sonata GLS V6 5-speed manual loaded with leather, sunroof, etc. and I paid about $18,000 for it.

kdshapiro

"you want a $63 near super-car and you drive a 330i automatic non-Sport? Makes no sense to me."

I thought my car was a perfect daily commuter. Let's say the middle of the road between a Civic and M3. What's wrong with that? Had the ZHP been available at the time, I probably would have gotten that.

chrisboth

"All the others are pretenders as serious all around sport sedans" re 3 over a g

I hope feeling "not pretending" is consolation for being left behind in performance...even the ZHP handles almost exactly the same as a sports sedan G and the G is faster in quarter mile and to 100. The only real truth anywhere around here should be gleaned from actual comparisons. The FM platform has been recently compared to the GT-3 porsche...and often compared to the 5 series...who really is worried if the everyman 3 driving public gives credence to the car that actually performs better than the 3 the 5 the boxster the audi a4 and a6 the mercedes 320 in any model and.........

blueguydotcom

I used to commute 90 miles a day in my ZHP. I snatched up an 03 Protege ES manual for that duty now. Every weekday I miss my ZHP but for practicality's sake I couldn't see putting 25-30k miles on the bimmer every year.

Of course, all my cars are manuals and I don't it a lick in traffic. I'll take the tired left leg over being in a car that doesn't keep me involved - ie automatics.

Someone mentioned 5 adults in a 3. Done it many, many times. But these aren't cornfed midwestern or bundled up northeasterners. The size of the adults makes a difference. Two petite females and an average adult male fit back there just fine.

kdshapiro

"3.2l M3, nissan 3.6l v6, accord 3.0 v6 are among the 10 best engines. but the dominant V-6 benchmark is nissan 3.5l v6"

Not the way I read it.

speedracer3

Nissan's VQ series is one of the best V6 engines you can buy. BMW's I6 is the one of the best inline 6 engines you can buy.

kdshapiro

I read it this way. Those 10 engines are the ten top engines you can buy. From frugal to gas-hog.

chrisboth

Look you cant have everything in every engine - Some enjoy power and some enjoy eco-friendly. I'll take the power.

Esentially KDS will say the VQ isn't as good since it uses more gas or isn't as smooth or whatever will get you to forget that simply is the faster motor with more power...if you want to buy an economy car, many cars in this class will let you down - get the ever mentioned Hynduia. I'd guess if you spent 10k more for a car than the rest of the class you'd need to save for gas.

kdshapiro

"Esentially KDS will say the VQ isn't as good since it uses more gas or isn't as smooth or whatever will get you to forget that simply is the faster motor with more power..."

I won't say anything except like the I6 it's on the 10 best list.

Sounds like BMW envy.

danny1878

TL or G35 envy. Chris believe me BMW M3 does have one of the best engine. So does accord 3.0l v6. It is the 10 best car engine. But your friend forgot to read "but the dominant V-6 benchmark is nissan 3.5l v6. No need to bring in a lot of different engines (for comparison), either. Power, torque, brake-specific fuel consumption, just about any attribute you're looking at, the Nissan's at the top of the list.”

chrisboth

The m3 has a fantastic engine - but not for reliablity - they lose like 1% of them as the stroke is too long for a 9000 rpm car. Great motor but you can see the issues it brings.

Also lets keep in mind that the VQ in the G is detuned - there's another 10-40 hp or so more in there depending on which platform gets it. That m or a 330 is pushing its hp limit already.

igiban

It seems that when you have a 'near' in front of the car category, and the price tag trying to stay below $40K, you either get more L or more P, but not both all out at the same time. Arguably B3 is the best in terms of performance but also most expensive (to cover the badge and RWD).

But there're people who are willing to trade a bit less performance/RWD handling for a bit more luxury (the interior settings, conveniences, amenities, and room/comfort). Other than ES in that price range, which is simply a luxury (no P) sedan, it seems that the new TL wins on that L department. Agreed?

kdshapiro

"But there're people who are willing to trade a bit less performance/RWD handling for a bit more luxury (the interior settings, conveniences, amenities, and room)."

I would think that is a fair statment.

riez

Had to do an emergency business trip today. 120 miles on state 2-lane roads. 10 1/2 inches of snow fell in past 18 hours. Snowed all time I was driving. Temps around 15 deg. F with below 0 deg F wind chill. Blowing hard at times. Got there and back with no problems.

My '04 IS300 5-speed manual had no trouble. Having manual transmission, snow-mode throttle, LSD, ABS, and TC does help. But just driving prudently for the conditions is key. Don't think I ever went faster than 50 mph and likely averaged only about 40 mph.

Saw a new Nissan Maxima (FWD) and an older Dodge Stratus (FWD) in ditch along with an older Chevy Camaro (RWD) and a business Chevy full-size utility van (RWD). When I drove back a FWD Chrysler 300M followed behind me.

blueguydotcom

there's another 10-40 hp or so more in there depending on which platform gets it. That m or a 330 is pushing its hp limit already.

I'm a fan of Nissan but I'm not impressed by the size of the VQ v. the power output. Over 115 HP per liter without a turbo or supercharger is impressive engineering. Anything else...

And the M3 CSL puts out over 350 HP.

Then again, some of the hybrids displayed will do even better. We'll get torque that's instantaneous and better mileage. Yummy. 600 lb-ft of torque instantly and 35 mpg. That's what I call heaven.

chrisboth

The VQ is no 3.2 from bavaria, agreed. The VQ is amazing becasue of the torque at low rpm - not that low but the #'s for the current m3 and g coupe for torque output are roughly the same. The cars would both take off and hang together I'd imagine until the M hit 6 to 6.5 /1000 rpm. Then the extra 20-30 k starts to make sense maybe but the rest of us who buy a japanese or otherwise affordable car are lucky to have the VQ. 115 per/litre is a beaut and the vtec is another great engine when looking at that metric of performance.

pg48477

G35 is a good car but lets not carried away and compare it to M3. M3 is better in every way including engine, trany and suspension.

TL has 270HP 3.2 that is 84.3 HP per litter and G35 260hp 3.5 is about 74.3 HP per litter. I drove G35 and it feels like the engine is dying after 4000 RPM, that is not what you want if you want to experience performance of a RWD at high speed, on the other hand TL 3.2 comes alive after about 3500 RPM, to me it makes all the difference.

blueguydotcom

If honda would make the TL a RWD car, I'd all but guarantee it'd replace my BMW in 2006. A butter sweet 6 speed manual, with that nice 6 and honda quality. I don't even think I'd pause when leaving the BMW at the lease return and I do love my car. I just don't think my BMW is a well made car.

merc1

I've been reading this thread for a while and I'm curious to know your reasons as to why you say the G35 has just run over the 3-Series. The way I've seen it written over and over is that the G35 is the best alternative to the 3-Series, but still hasn't matched or beaten the 3-Series in everything. The BMW is still more than being merely competitive, even with less power. Are you saying the 3 is no longer the benchmark and that MB, Audi, Jaguar and others are studying the G35 now?

Despite my fascination with German cars, the G35 Coupe is a strong contender for my next car, but the interior is downright cheap for this class of car. Whether or not it's trying to be different is open for debate, but that still doesn't mean it has to be cheap feeling/looking.

The reason I bring this up is because I'm reading your posts and they read like the 3-Series isn't even any competition for the G35. Thats hardly the case.

M

chrisboth

"I drove G35 and it feels like the engine is dying after 4000 RPM, that is not what you want if you want to experience performance of a RWD at high speed."

The tourque peak is at around 4 - did you actually drive it. The end of the fun is around 6k if you look at the curve and actually drive one it;s quite apparent. Lets not forget the TL v G 1/4 mile and 0-100 numbers....

At 4 grand with WOT the G IS as fast as an M3 until 6K This does not make it a better car than an M3. The bang for buck is exactly where you say it isn't in the G. When you go for another drive notice it has almost a turbo lag until about 3200 rmp - and then thrust city. Your statement is quite absurd IMO. At 4k the thing is worth BMW money and I may have paid it.

"TL has 270HP 3.2 that is 84.3 HP per litter and G35 260hp 3.5 is about 74.3 HP per litter. I drove G35 and it feels like the engine is dying after 4000 RPM, that is not what you want if you want to experience performance of a RWD at high speed, on the other hand TL 3.2 comes alive after about 3500 RPM, to me it makes all the difference. "

Take a look at torque numbers per litre for each. While you are waiting to come alive I've been thrusting down the pike and showing you my led's!

"Are you saying the 3 is no longer the benchmark and that MB, Audi, Jaguar and others are studying the G35 now?

I doubt the germans will ever emulate the japanese - too bad for many reasons too but I am saying the G35 is teh benchmark now. Look at the New GS lexus shows at the detriot show I believe for 2006. Looks like the G has had an impact for the next generation in design. Did you see the rear quarter - they may get sued.

Look at the numbers look at the design and the reliablity. Hell if you dont like the interior as much as i love my willow leather and titanium then wait 12 months and see what happens. The benchmark should not lose to a first timer in performance, be smaller and cost more while in the same class and be considered anything but playing catch up ala the 3.8i v8 3 series coming soon (with a G competitive price too).

Is there that much of a difference in G over three - NO NO NO. It's simply my argument that that 3 being a benchmark is yesterdays hype still rolling with powerful marketing intertia. The 3 is great no G owner want to take that away from anyone...it's just not the only one anymore and not the best by the performance numbers. If there is something else besides great numbers and looks to pay for I'm not sure I'm going to pay BMW prices for it. I think some people just like that germanic intangible - you get it in a Golf too and to me it conjures up reliabillity issues that seem to pervade every german automaker relentelessly and consistenly. See Bllueguys comments as a 3 owner.

Also the benchmark should not be overlooked by a comepitors cross shopping as the 3 is when G cross shopppers look at the 5 as an alternative.

I'd say the 5 is the benchmark the G strives to become over the next five years and the 3 becomes more inline with the is-300 and accord and saab. Is it pricing or size that matters when class comparing?

Audi and Jag could stand to learn from someone. The audi4 is a passat and the Jag is a mondeo.

Caddy is better than all but 3 and G. And CTSV - look out...new sherrif in town

kdshapiro

"Caddy is better than all but 3 and G. And CTSV - look out...new sherrif in town "

Well if we're aribtrarily going to $50K lets arbitrarily go to $90K. Watch out for the new M5 0 to 60 in 3.9. Better yet lets go to an Enzo at $600K.

I'm glad the G is striving for the 5, as I like the philosophy shoot for the stars and hit the moon.

raher

Performance Acura 3.2 TL Type-S - Audi A4 3.0 - BMW 330i - Cadillac CTS - Infiniti G35
Zero-to-60-mph acceleration, sec. 7.0 - 7.4 - 6.3 - 6.9 - 6.7
Quarter-mile acceleration, sec. 15.4 - 15.8 - 14.9 - 15.3 - 15.1
Quarter-mile speed, mph 93.5 - 88.5 - 94.6 - 90.7 - 93.5
60-to-0-mph braking, feet 128.5 - 117.74 -116.66 -118.34 -128.96
600-ft slalom, mph 61.3 - 63.4 - 63.6 - 59.7 - 59.2

The data above is from the Edmunds 2003 sedan comparison test. I apologize for the formatting but it was a copy and paste.
My point here is that sometimes we get overly enthusiastic about what we own and start quoting what we believe to be true in terms of performance, etc. All of these are fine cars and we all have different reasons for buying them.
These are 2003 models. The TL stats have improved for the TL because of the new model. I believe the 330i and the G35 are consistent with the 2004 models as they are running the same motors as 2003 in 2004 ?
The recent Edmunds test for the 04 TL had 0-60 in 6.5 and 1/4 mile in 14.9. G35 for 2004 was 0-60 in 6.1 and 1/4 mile in 14.7. I know the 330i 0-60 was almost identical to the TL. There were some 5.7 times reported for both in recent articles.
The 2003 comparison showed the 330i with the fastest 0-60 time of 6.3. You can find different reviews of these cars with different 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. I believe this is explained by track conditions, tires and skill of the individuals doing the driving. The bottom line for me is that I think you can throw a blanket over these cars in terms of performance in a straight line. It will depend on who is at the wheel. I guess I am disputing the post above which states everyone else will be seeing the LED's of the G 35.
A really interesting part of the test which I had not seen before was the run through the 600 ft slalom course. The 330i won by edging out the A4 and both of these were 2 mph faster than the others. The G35 was last. I don't know if the G35 made changes to suspension or tires for 04.
I just re read the Edmunds test for the 04 TL and the TL went through at 67 mph this year. Quite an improvement from the 03 TL-s 61.3 mph. Edmunds said it was "one of the fastest cars we've ever taken through the cones". As a TL owner it shows me that perhaps the rhetoric I constantly hear about RWD being much better handling isn't necessarily true in all instances.
I am looking forward to the "shoot out" articles that are surely coming in the auto mags. At least it frames the conversations in facts and data and away from opinion.

kdshapiro

raher - just to cite an example. Cars improve every year, so it would be no surprise a FWD of 1980 would be bested by a FWD of 2004. However, having said that, I would like to see how the new ZHP stacks up with the G35 with the SP against the new TL. In the same comparo. Chances are they will best the FWD because of the weight distribution.

It is my belief that the average driver can get more out of a FWD than a RWD. But a RWD driver who has taken performance classes can extract more out of the RWD than a skilled driver can extract out of the FWD.

So to your point, there are advantages and disadvantages of each.

billyperks

That test did not do justice to the Type S.
Emunds compared apples to oranges.

The Type S was an automatic while the Bimmer and the G were rowing their gears manually.

If all the cars were automatic across the board the TL would have won hands down.

I am only standing up for the car I own, not trying to make any point.

Justice served.

jrock65

"I drove G35 and it feels like the engine is dying after 4000 RPM, that is not what you want if you want to experience performance of a RWD at high speed, on the other hand TL 3.2 comes alive after about 3500 RPM, to me it makes all the difference."

The converse of this would be that the G35 comes alive as soon as you press the gas, while the TL feels dead until 3500 rpm. Not that I truly agree about either car feeling "dead."

qbrozen

It is my belief that the average driver can get more out of a FWD than a RWD. But a RWD driver who has taken performance classes can extract more out of the RWD than a skilled driver can extract out of the FWD.

Results of grand prix championships would tend to disagree with you. 3-series and Integras were always fighting for top honors.

kdshapiro

I actually agree with you in the light HP duty class. That is one of the advantages of FWD. But the horsepower race is on: 400 hp to front wheel? Not sure about that. No problem with RWD. But we are talking Near Luxury, not GP. In the world of Near Luxury street legal cars, it's a different story.

So yes, cars like the mini will shine in certain situations due to it's overall small chassis, which is aided by the fact FWD has a smaller footprint. But they are inhertently hp limited.

In terms of the topic, I stand by my assertion talking Near Luxury sport(y) sedans.