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Mike
story (not sure is true): one salesperson said he brought an offer for sticker on their last hybrid, his manager said, "no way, we want at least 1k over sticker since they are flying out." (having sold previous ones for sticker) sure enough, 2 days later, they sold it for 1k over sticker to someone else.
for this reason, my wife and i opted for the 2003 Accord. yes, a very different car, but it cost us less than the Hybrid would have cost.
We are also thinking about a CIvic EX, and will take a close look at the Jetta. I have looked at the Mazda Protege and liked the 0% interest and the pretty good ranking in its class, but the car still does not have the refinement of the Civic or the Jetta.
Tell me more about the 03 Accord you bought. Was it easier to make a deal more in your favor since there are lots of Accords out there (unlike HCHs which not being delivered in great quantities)?
MEC
the price you have on the Hybrid is good one. if it were offered to me, i may have given the Hybrid a more serious look [which dealer, btw, do you have this offer from?].
rough prices we had on the board in considering the different cars were:
Accord EX auto : 20.8k
Civic Hybrid CVT: 21k
Civic EX Auto: ~17k
the problem with the Civic EX is it is harder to find one on the lots with side airbags; hence, again, there seems to be less room for negotiation.
but as you can see; the Civic EX and Accord can be had for close to invoice pricing while we were only able to find Hybrids at MSRP and above. Definitely, low volumes of Hybrids make it tough to get a great deal. maybe this will change in the future...
my wife and i both liked the Hybrid a lot: not quite as peppy as the EX, but quieter, better mileage, and a MUCH smoother transmission. [aside: i normally drive 5 spd, but this is primarily my wife's car] At the same price, i think the Hybrid is a better car than the EX.
BUT, we didn't think the Hybrid was 4k better: that was too steep a price differential for our pocketbooks [even with the small gas savings and tax write-off and feeling good about being green].
Then, after driving the EX Civic and comparing it with the Accord, we were quickly won over:
For the Accord...
pros:
- much quieter, refined ride.
- cleaner car: SULEV/PZEV vehicle
- still decent mileage [we've already gotten 35 mpg driving 75 mph on a highway trip and it isn't even broken in yet!]
- much more amenities: nice alloy wheels, 6 disc in dash changer, overall interior is better quality, 4 wheel disc brakes, side airbags standard.
- smoother, more effortless engine
- FABULOUS automatic 5 spd transmission: this is very smooth and is 10x better than the one found on the Civic. although i still like driving 5 spd, i don't mind driving this automatic at all. BTW, the CVT on the Hybrid is also very nice. a big improvement from the discrete 4 spd automatic on the EX Civic.
cons:
- lower mileage than Civic EX
- costs about 4k more
the bigger size: toss-up: both a plus and a minus.
If we could have gotten the Hybrid for 17-18k, it probably would have been the car we had chosen. but with a 4k difference between the EX and Hybrid Civics, we ruled it out the Hybrid and were left comparing the EX Civic and EX Accord.
good luck in your decision process. like i said, 20k is a better deal than i came across; but after having the Accord for 3 weeks, i have no regrets buying it instead of either of the two Civic models. it is a *much* larger car than either Civic, though. that has some positives and negatives associated with it.
Second, what about a hybrid Camry? I was under the impression Toyota might be a little farther along.
Thanks again.
Thanks for the comprehensive answer. It will help me a lot in my decision. When comparing the EX to the Hybrid in terms of cost and gas mileage, you only save about 350 bucks in gas over 5 years. Not a good payback.
Coincidentally, the price of the HCH put me in the mood to start looking at Altimas, Accords, and Camrys as well as the Civic EX.
I am glad you are so happy with your Accord. It is a fine car and was improved this year with the new design.
I received pricing of 20.3K from San Leandro Honda and about 300 bucks less from Dublin.
Michael
If you go to the Toyota site and input you zip code for the nearest dealer, you could see how many cars they have in their inventory. Dealers will low inventories will not deal too much below MSRP.
Getting about 42.5 MPG on highway
from the looks of your post and others, the prices of the Civic Hybrid may have just come down. that's a good sign. interestingly enough, while going by Honda of Stevens Creek the other night, i noted that they still do not have any Hybrid's in stock. But perhaps Capitol, Dublin, and San Leandro Honda have more frequent shipments of the Hybrids.
If you have a source that says that Honda will be offering a hybrid Accord in the next 18 months, I would be happy to be corrected. No one I know in the business thinks it will happen that soon. I got the impression you wanted this information because you needed to buy a new car in this timeframe - if so, you'll have lots of choices, but a Hybrid Accord will not likely be one of them.
By the '06 model year, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Hybrid Accords and CR-Vs, and possibly even the Pilot/MDX offered with such an option. But not much sooner than the end of calendar year 2005.
Nobody holds their new car plans more closely than Honda, so speculation is all most of us ever have until the last 12 months or so before a new model appears.
Greetings from sunny Miami.
About the battery. It is warranted for 8 years/ 80,000 miles. Honda says it should actually last 100,000 miles. Present cost is about $2,000, but by the time it is ready to be replaced it should be about $500 to $700.
I have been considering trading it in and buying a Honda Civic Hybrid.
I know it will be a big adjustment in terms of comfort and ride, but I think i can deal with it.
I live in Texas, so currently there is no incentive to purchase a hybrid vehicle. With the Federal tax incentive expiring by 2006 - I'm not sure I can wait for the Accord Hybrid to come to market and how much more expensive will the Accord hybrid be than what is available now?
How close are FCV vehicles to a reality. I ahve seen stories about the vehicles that use liquid hydrogen, but I have also heard of vehicles that will convert gasoline to hydrogen.
I don't want to buy the Hybrid technology if it is just a stop gap approach until something better comes along.
Also, does anyone think the Accord Hybrid will show a reduced cost for the hybrid technology and will the tax incentives be re-established?
I think hybrids are here to stay for a while.
Are we talking Model year 2006 or possibly sooner?
Does anyone think Honda will come out with multiple hybrids at the same time or will it be model by model?
Or if they do, they aren't talking!
I'm curious what others have set ther tires to, and the results. Thanks.
Mike
George
Not only that, your car will dribble down the road like a basketball.
And for what? Another 1/16 of a mile per gallon?
> air pressure reccomendations or you could have
> a blowout!...And for what? Another 1/16 of a
> mile per gallon?
Heck, for another 1/16 of a mile per gallon, I'd drive with the windows open in the winter! ;-)
Not really, of course, but this car really sucks you in and makes you want to get the very most out of it!
There's an important distinction between the *car* manufacturer's recommended air pressure (30 psi) and the *tire* manufacturer's rated maximum (44 psi for the Bridgestones on my 5-speed).
The car manufacturer may have a variety of reasons for specifying a certain pressure--one is that they want their prospective buyers to feel that the ride is smooth and comfortable. (Remember the Ford debacle, where the manufacturer recommended *under*inflating tires so the customers wouldn't think their trucks rode like trucks??)
The *tire* manufacturer gives a max. pressure based on safety (and probably with a wide margin, since the primary definition of safety these days is safety from liability suits!).
So, while I wouldn't recommend exceeding the max. pressure for the tire, there's no reason not to experiment within this limit. I initially raised mine to 36 psi and found that my 5-speed handles noticeably better (less oversteer), gives a better "feel" for the road and gets better mileage (at least 2 mpg for the same route and conditions). Next trip to the gas station (still weeks away...), I'm planning to try 40 to see if it makes a difference.
I noticed Honda does not offer the hybrid Civic in UK and has gone a different direction to achieve minimum fuel usage.
The diesel in Civic (CTDi) is an Isuzu unit, and Honda plans on releasing its own (first) diesel in 2003 Accord next year. Now, it would be interesting to watch if Honda decides to experiment with diesel-electric motivation.
didn't really notice a decrease in the battery performance, they seem to get recharged just as quickly. however, my mileage has been dropping consistently ever since the onset of freezing temps. got the car in july, average mpg ~50. am now at ~40 mpg and holding steady. most likely due to fact that idle stop does not activate until car warms up, and my commute is barely five minutes. even so, it appears as though the temps are making the idle stop feature work erratically, especially when the heat is on, and the 'econ' setting is chosen.
anyone else with opinions on hch and cold weather?
No argument, though, on the general cluelessness one encounters at the typical dealership.
I had it checked out at the dealer and they said it was fine. I have received no explanation in my mind to justify such low mileage. Some comments/explanations I've heard:
* Different gasoline is available in winter that gets lower mileage
* Auto-stop doesn't work with heat on (this happens with temps below 41 degrees)
* Not being a "conscious" driver and watching MPG
* The cold weather (I'm in Chicago where it's been snowy and cold).
Now, it seems to me that 30 is unreasonably low. It should average 48, so to me maybe 40 would be reasonable given these conditions. Has anyone else had this problem? I know it will increase over time, but did anyone else start out so low??
I’m starting to wonder if I should try and swap for a LX, as my friend is getting 35 MPG after one year.
Thanks for any quick responses!
At least your mileage gauge is accurate. Mine is always 5% to 10% higher than the true mileage.
Bob Wolf
My dealer can find a blue automatic but I think I might be happier with a manual since I will be driving on icy rural northern CA highways.
Any knowledge of the color issue out there?
Any thoughts on manual vs automatic related to snow and ice...I'm used to all wheel drive vehicles...manual subaru and automatic toyota previa in the past.
It sounds like you have been fed a line by the dealer. Look at the honda web page and you will see that it does come in blue. Just confront your dealer or better yet go to another one. I'm upset by the limeted color choices in this car too. Why not just offer it in all the civic colors. Only three choices, that's lame. Anyway, I'm in the San Francisco Bay area and test drove the hybrid and the dealer totally lied to me to get me to buy the car. They didn't even have a window sticker, just a dealer applied sticker that had the price of the car $1000 over msrp. This was a way to hide added markup I guess. I'd guess y0our dealer doesn't have the color option combo you want and are only trying to get you to buy what they have.
Bob Wolf
The second CVT is the one my employer has as a pool car. It is probably driven about 30/70 city/highway. But people always leave off the econo.
Both cars always have the air conditioner on (this is Texas).
Our area Honda dealers are adding $1,000 - $1,500 to the MSRP and they won't budge. I cannot blame them because most are sold before they arrive at the dealership. Sometimes stories like these are nothing but urban legend, but in this case it is true. The Northern Virginia area is "commuter hell" except for those who qualify to use the High Occupancy Vehicle lanes. The state has removed the '3 0r more passengers' restriction for Hybrids. This added incentive has them selling like hotcakes.
I bought a brand new 1999 Accord V6 from a salesman at our local dealer who has been a personal friend of mine for 20 years (kids on the same teams, same schools, same church, etc.) When I went back to him to trade the Accord for a Hybrid, he let me walk with a sales price for a CVT of about $22,000 and a book-value trade in allowance.
I went to southern New Jersey for Thanksgiving with my family. I was telling them this story when my sister-in-law, who works at a Honda dealership there told me "we can't give them away".
I went to the dealership where she works on the Friday after Thanksgiving. They had three CVTs on the lot (none were blue). All had a 'no haggle' price tag of $18,999 hanging from the rear-view mirror. I had them look at my Accord, and their offer was net $1,500 better. I wanted a blue CVT. They called the next dealership up the line and traded something. They had the blue one on the lot within 90 minutes. They had it prepped and ready a little after 5pm. They really, really wanted me to take this car!
I would never have driven 160 miles to save a few bucks. I only looked in New Jersey because I was there anyway. Had I known that I would have $1,500 in my pocket, I would have driven to North Dakota!
I will not mention the name of the particular dealership. I doesn't matter. It seems that once you get 100 miles away from DC you can save significant coin.
P.S. I absolutely love this car -- even after the top-of-the-line Accord I had been driving. My commute is 20 minutes faster each way.
The other major contributing factors to higher mileage are driving style and hill....
If you accelerate around the city a lot, the state of charge goes down. Use less boost in town by driving more gently. For 5-speed, make sure that you do not depress the clutch until nearly stopped. The battery regeneration does not work with the clutch in.
The state of charge is important because when you hit the highway, the battery recharges during steady cruising. During the first many miles of cruising, while the battery is getting recharged, my instantaneous mpg indicator was steady around 30 or 40 mpg (I forget which). Once the battery was fully charged, my instantaneous mpg indicator went way up, reaching a lifetime average of 54 mpg by the time I finished my 134 miles.