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'99 Silverado/Sierra vs. F-150
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Comments
True, heat can weaken the metal. But bolting requires drilling which creates microfractures around the hole, which can lead to failure. Most bolted metal structures I have encountered have a flat metal plate welded to one of the components, so there would be little advantage to bolting, would just create another reason for failure. Again, I am no expert on the subject, so I may still be wrong.
2sly,
I too am on my second late-model F-150. Wanna know why? I leased the first, and the lease was up this summer. I really wanted to keep it, but I also wanted 4wd, so I got the exact same truck, with 4wd. I was happy with the first, I am happy with this one. Is that a good reason to be on my second Ford? Also, scientific magazines within the automotive field do exist, and just like most truely scientific journals, you can't buy them at a magazine stand. I forget the names now, but I know they are out there. I haven't seen one devoted to trucks though. And I thought you did buy Fords for the last ?? years. Did they all suck, or was this just a "I got a lemon so now all will feel my wrath" thing?
Put the 5.4 in the F-150 with a 3.73 axle ratio for towing, and you're going to have power to spare. Run it against the 5.3 in the Silverado with the 3.73 towing an equally heavy trailer and there aren't you're not going to see the Chevy running away from the Ford on extended tow runs through mountainous terrain. It just ain't going to happen.
And don't start comparing the 6.0L to the 5.4L, because the 6.0 is a bigger, higher rated engine. I'm sure you'll bring up the test of the 6.0L vs the V-10 that you read in a magazine (that you say you don't read), but we've already had that discussion. Take a 3/4 ton Silverado and strap on the heaviest 5th wheel it is rated to carry. Strap on the exact same size 5th wheel to a similiarly equipped F-250 Superduty with the V-10 and the same axle ratios and run a few thousand miles together through the Rockies. You'll notice the torque advantage.
It's also ridiculous to say that the current line of Ford trucks is crap. They are bigger, stronger, and faster with higher tow ratings, GVWRs, GCWRs and better mpg than the models they replace. The engines are more efficient and will last longer because of the better technology. There is nothing inferior about the new trucks compared to the previous lines of Ford trucks unless its a personal preference for the appearance.
GM is headed for a government bailout in the near future due to so many clone models and poor quality (check the Consumer Reports used cars to avoid list sometime, it seems like a reasonable list)
I like GM trucks but I like Ford trucks better I have had Rangers and F-150s and they have all been good.
So there!
It was published on the 9th of November page 1A. But I guess since this is not Scientific Journals then you probably doesn't read it because it is SO biased. The Dallas Morning News is probably more like a comic book, huh? Just for laughs.
FACT: Chevy had way more reported problems than Ford!!!
TSB's are bulletins sent out to dealers based upon customer complaints. Basically, they are to let the mechanics know what people will come in complaining about and to let them know they should fix it, if it is reproducible. As for recalls, issuance is still based upon, to some degree, the manufacturer claiming responsibility for and willingness to correct problems. Neither of these has any bearing on how many problems occur. It only reflects the company's willingness to help a consumer who purchased a car that was defective. Chevy has a long track record of not owning up to mistakes. Do we need to mention side saddle gas tanks? It took many DEATHS and lawsuits before they actually did anything. At least Ford will help a guy out and fix minor problems.
welded vs non welded frames
welds are stronger, but the heat caused by welding causes transformation of the steel just outside of the weld. commonly called the "heat-affected" zone. this zone is heated and cooled very quickly creating "martensitic steel", a very stiff and brittle condition. can be cured by heat treatments, but usually isn't because after you weld it, its too big/complex/developed to stick in an autoclave. drilling holes in a frame does not cause microcracks, or weaken it, other than the fact it removed material.
hydroforming, there is no welding, so there is no need to stamp out the material in a forging die. hydorforming uses ~30%(?) less raw material than forged frames because the process is more efficient. no welding also takes out alot of production time. In the end: cheaper production costs becuase it was done in a fraction of the time, and with less raw material. Stronger because there are no heat affected zones ,and there is continous material.
The frame rails on my truck are straight. I don't know where any corners would be that seacrow mentioned.
the fact about the crack stopping at the weld was correct, but had NOTHING to do with the strength of the weld. the weld was an interruption in the rupturing material. it was a physical block. just like if you tape the ends of 2 pieces of paper end to end, with single piece of tape running the length of the touching edges: tear one page toward the tape and slowly rip it all the way, you will be able to tear it up to the piece of tape. you cannot tear pass the tape. BUT, do it again, and instead of tearing it, just pull the papers in opposite directions, the tape turns loose long before the paper tears.
I stand corrected. Thanks for the help.
SM
I wonder if the fewer TSBs and recalls by Chevy compared to Ford are directly related to the significantly higher level of complaints by Chevy owners compared to Ford owners. Problem occurs, issue a TSB or recall.....or don't and get your customers complaining. The Dallas Morning News was the second source quoted in this forum that indicated Ford had higher customer satisfaction. In the J.D. Power & Associates Quality Study report, the Ford F-Series ranked #1, the Dodge Ram ranked #2 and the Superduty ranked #3. They only listed the top three. Although we can all find studies to support our views, I haven't heard a counter with anything recent concerning quality, customer satisfaction etc. in support of Chevy. You can only go on quoting 10 year studies for so long. How about a quality and/or consumer satisfaction survey in support of Chevy that covers the period since Ford introduced their new "wimpy" redesigned F-150 line in 1997? I'm sure the reports are out there. Dig a little.
I challenge 2sly to provide a list of the top 20 bass fishermen in the US and the truck they drive.
If you tow a 7,000 pound bass boat with a 5.3L Chevy Silverado 1/2 ton extended cab with a 3.73 axle ratio and auto transmission and you put the same size bass boat behind a 5.4L F-150 extended cab with a 3.73 axle ratio and auto transmission, you're not going to see any dramatic differences.
As far as IQ, mine is somewhere over 300. Then again, in addition to being a Ford owner, I'm also Polish, so we use a different scale.
And as I've said before, my handle is Brutus, not Bubba.....
This whole topic cracks me up.
and i agree with brutus about comparing the bass bout of similiar origin, with the two truck(silverado, F-150) that there would be little difference.
BTW i drive a '99 silverado Z-71
I dont agree that ford builds better "packages" or whatever
They are both very good trucks, they are neck and neck in comparison. I chose my chevy because the gas mileage, the back seat, but most of all because i have been chevy all my life and in my opinion chevy looks the best.
Im not knocking the F-150, but thats my opinion.
They are both damn good trucks
Bill is that 25mph on the loop(610 during rush hour or just anyways??)
I am in brenham, just down the road from you
It is nice to hear from you guys. I am new to the board and was worried that 2bla bla 4 whatever was the cream of the crop, apparently not.
I guess in general, I like trucks (the Tundra does not count) and I like debate.
I still think OHC engines are the better way to go but I do not think that Chevy's new engines suck. I also hate most of GM's vehicles overall with all of the cloning and stuff, but the trucks are one of their better ideas in a while.
See ya
"The new three-section frame is engineered for maximum performance, allowing improvements in components that attach to it as well as exterior fit-and finish. The hydroformed front section is exceptionally rigid, eschewing rivets for welds to provide strong joints. The end result is tighter fitting front sheetmetal and a less-stressed frame. Hydroforming, a process that uses high-pressure fluid to mold steel into shape, also results in a lighter structure because fewer welds and pieces of steel are necessary to attain the requisite strength."
I'll have to dig a bit more, but I am assuming this three-piece frame consists of front, middle and rear sections. I may be interpreting it wrong, but I would guess that the three sections are hydroformed, then welded together. Question: if one section is damaged past the point of repair, say the rear section in a rear end accident, and the other two sections are fine, do they (Chevy) replace the damaged section or scrap the whole frame?
The rear section of the truck is 'C' stamped steel. Chevy uses hydroformed cross members and close out plates to join the two rear sections.
The middle section is made of roll-form high strength steel lipped into a "C" section and then shaped into the mid frame.
The front section is all hydroformed. I hope this helps. I found this at the Chevrolet web site.
Initially, the Tundra was going to be called the T-150, but I think there were some grumblings about a potential lawsuit from a competitor. Either that or they were concerned about being labeled a copy cat. A few topics up (Look out Ford, Dodge, Chevy, here comes the T-150), someone posted his opinions of a recent auto show where he got to scope out some of the recent offerings from the Ford, Dodge, Chevy and Toyota.
Are they ever going to change the body style? People who worry about repair costs, tire costs should be riding a bicycle, or a car that they can afford to do repairs and replacments on. Oh yes Z the last letter in the alpha.
I suspected the use of high strength steel. The use of this product has certain advantages and disadvantages. It's lightweight (costs less) because less material is required.
The frame can be very flexible if not enough corner bracing is used (flexing is bad for slide-ins campers and caps). This is not an indication that the frame is weak but just not braced well enough. So far, I have only heard the frame is a lot stiffer than previous models.
There is two dangers though, High strength steel requires more carbon. More carbon means the steel can be more brittle and therefore can yield in the form of cracking or bending (more than just flexing) once the strength threshold is exceeded.
The flexing is good in an accident, it absorbes the impact energy. As long as the strength threshhold is not exceed, the frame should return to the original shape.
Knowing the above, any bent high strength probably would best be recycled. Same thing for the F-150 frame which is all high strength steel. Too much impact force could bend the entire frame.
GM is betting that the mid section is stiff enought to survive, meaning only replacing the damaged end sections. Time will tell.
Sorry for this sidebar but do you live in Vegas? I was just there earlier in October and stayed at Bally's. What a cool town!! I was expecting a more glamourous AC but boy I was wrong!
How long has chevy used this technology for frames? Is it new to the trucks they build or have others done this??
Back to my F150, it towed a 5000lbs. boat with no problem in the 120+ degree heat. What I thought at the time was most impressive was that after recovering the boat we would wipe the boat down, dump all the trash, use restrooms etc. all the time with the truck idling with the air on and the temp gauge never went above half.
Hey Roc, what did you mean by "more glamorous AC"? I know I got carried away with my post but this place(Vegas) rules!
AC=Atlantic City. I thought Vegas was a wild town. I don't know if I could live there for the long haul but a great place to visit.
I have towed many boats, mostly with my 98 F-150 I had and never had any problems. To stay on topic, the ratio of Ford to chevy trucks present at local boat ramps is about 3-to-1. As a matter of fact Ford dominates this area. the roads are filled with F-150s, Explorers (I also have one of these), Expeditions, and Navigators. My hometown of Carrollton, Ga. is the opposite with chevies leading the way. I guess local demographics play a huge role in truck sales. Those folks in Ga. will buy chevy just because they had a chevy something or other in 1937 and never bothered looking at anything else, very old-fashioned.
My boats hull was laid up by Howard Custom Boats in Valencia Ca. The mold was bought from Warlock boats. It's almost 23' long with what they call a Mod VP Tunnel Hull. I had the deck cut out and made into an open bow. when it was done in early '95 it was believed to be one of the few if only 100 mph open bow boats in existence. I "try" not to exceed 80 with passengers in the bow. Actually with much weight in the front because of the air entrapment hull it slows the boat anyway. The motor is the S/C 502 which I actually had some trouble with burning the #2 exhaust valve due to a lean condition(twice) I pulled the S/C off this last summer and I think I found what was causing the problem. I might throw the S/c back on next spring.
Will most likely order my F350 CC 4x4 S/B this winter to get it by spring. Even though I never have a shortage of friends with tow vehicles when it comes time to go to the lake.
Take it easy all.
carlady/roving host
I follow and agree with you.
mzn,
I thank you.
Roc
Lets face it both trucks are the cutting edge of what America has to offer. The only winner is the consumer. Each manufacturer took the latest technology available to them and assembled it into the truck that we have today. And looking at the information here, many of the Ford and Chevy owners put a sincere effort to convey their experiences whether they are good or bad with these new trucks.
When searching for a truck, many consumers will hit this topic and research these trucks. I know I did. I was fortunate to make my decision before things got out of hand.
From what I am reading from the recent posts it appears that many of us would like to see the topic return to one of information instead of name calling. Maybe we should create a new topic designed just for brand bashing and name calling. All of those users here that generate posts such as those can hang out there.
Bonnie Rick
Town Hall Community Manager, Edmunds.com
This people and brand bashing isn't helping anyone.
I have to say, that on the highway or in town, this damn truck will find EVERY single whole or bump or whatever you call it, but when it gets "offroad" its like a caddy
even though it is rough on the highway, it is a truck, thats what trucks do and are, ROUGH, but a pleasant rough, lol
I'm not sure what you're trying to stir up with your recall post. The speed control thing on the Explorer is old news. My son brought his in to the dealer, they gave him a Taurus to drive over night and returned his Explorer the next day, fixed.
I would be very interested in legitimate, documented problems that aren't being addresses through TSBs or recalls.
Rich
583 was probably mine. It seems that Edmunds objected to me using the first letter and a series of nonsensical punctuation to "disguise" some words considered offensive. (A stronger version of "heck" and a word that means to complain but commonly refers to a gender of canines.) This one will probably get pulled too. Oh, well, such is life in an open boat!
Rich
You stated "I'm not sure what you're trying to stir up with your recall post."
My short answer to you is I have no intent to stir up anything.
I was hoping for some intelligent discussion and thoughts on the subject of recalls as per the subject of both the topic and my post. If that is above you, then your comeback will surely be a another larger flame.
Just thought I'd share some factual information with others who may visit this topic to see, compare, and do their own analysis on. I started gathering the info months back to while researching a new truck purchase. I have since followed up with the NTSB site for updates and to keep informed.
The recall information is just one small but important area of many that I looked at in purchasing a new truck. I also looked at TSB's, Prices, resale value, recommendations / experiences of others, actual test drives of the big 3 trucks, actual number of new trucks in the service depts's for repairs, etc. I also looked at quite a few topics on edmunds as well as other web sites. After finally determining the truck I would purchase then it took another week to find a dealer that would sell one at a fair price. I drove 70 miles for the purchase of a new Chevy Silverado.
I believe that all 3 make good vehicles. I also currently own a Ford (139,000 mi)and Jeep (121,000 mi) as well, so please no flames. I've also owned trucks in the past from all three.
Any discussion / thoughts about recalls and trends from post # 582 would be appreciated.
Tony
-powerisfun
GM having less of them than the other two domestics for the last 10 years only proves that GM trucks have had less problems.
Also, the same JD Power that rated the Dodge and Ford so good on initial quality, just recently rated the Silverado and Sierra the "most appealing trucks" of all three domestic trucks and the Toyota Tundra based on polls of 87,560 people.
Keep trying.
Tony
1999: (I haven't seen it yet)
1998: Dodge Ram
1997: Dodge Ram
1996: Dodge Ram
J.D. Powers Initial Quality:
1999: Ford F-Series
1998: Toyota T-100 (a fullsize?)
1997: Ford F-Series
1996: Chevy C/K
The higher number of recalls certainly doesn't appear to impact the consumers opinion of Initial Quality or Apeal.
If recalls equal problems equal complaints, I guess we can assume that Chevy will soon be issuing a recall to fix the squeak in the third door that many Chevy owners have been complaining about for years.