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Buick LaCrosse

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Comments

  • robchemistrobchemist Posts: 37
    Based on the initial quality survey at JDPowers, the Lacrosse did quite well. The 2005 Lacrosse, Accord and Camry were virtually identical. Since just qualitative ratings (among the best, better than most, etc.), as opposed to numerical ratings with standard deviations (XX ± XX problems per vehicle) are given, there may be small but statistically significant differences between the vehicles. Our experience with the Lacrosse (a CX) to date is certainly consistent with the ratings at JDPowers - ca. 2000 miles, no problems.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Hopefully we will have some numbers by tomorrow ;)

    I played with the JD power site a bit more. If you look at the 2001 Century, Accord, Camry for long term dependibiliyt it shows Accord, Regal and Century tied and Camry was quite a bit worse. I do know that for 2001 and beyond a concerted effort was made to improve the quality of the Regal and Century and they improved tremendously for the short term quality measures beating the Camcord. The long term should also show this improvement.

    There is not data of 2002 long term dependibility yet.
  • vanman1vanman1 Posts: 1,397
    Oshawa 1 where LaCrosse/Allure are made just finished 1st in North America in quality with only 85 problems per 100 cars. Nice to know you will get a quality car if you buy one of these Buicks.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewm- - onthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=74&docid=14928

    this is a GM new release on how GM cars did in the latest JD Power Initial quality.

    "Buick LaCrosse Highest-Ranked All-New Redesigned Launch Vehicle; Buick Century Highest in Initial Quality among Vehicles Built in North/South America"
  • dan165dan165 Posts: 653
    I have a 2004 Grand Prix GT I bought when they just came out from Oshawa and it's been virtually flawless and rattle free for over a year and a half. Fit and finish is excellent.

    When I hear people trash GM quality it makes my blood boil because while they may have had some bad apples in the past, their quality over the past few years has risen sharply in every way.
  • 307web307web Posts: 1,033
    Obviously, they are quite lenient with their criteria of "all-new."
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    That is another term that gets bandied about and the domestics seem to take the brunt of the comment.

    How "all new" was the last Avalon? How about the latest version? Just Camry's in new clothing. How about the Lexus ES300/330? Again Camry's. At least the LaCrosse has a new engine. Whoops that was in a Cadillac!!

    Same with just about every new car that comes out. Can anyone give examples of any "all new" vehicles out there in the last couple years? The G6 is an Epsilon so it is not all new. Solstice looks to be all new but no, it has some parts that were on other cars. Darn. Anyone help here? maybe the 300? I do not know. How about the 500? Mustang?
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    You should pick your examples carefully; the 2000-2004 Avalon rode on the 92-01 Camry chassis, the new Avalon uses a modified version of the current Camry platform. The 3.5L in the new Avalon made its debut in that car, and is NOT related to any current Camry engine.

    In my opinion, the 05 Avalon is a good deal more ALL NEW than the LaCrosse is.

    ~alpha
  • 307web307web Posts: 1,033
    The LaCrosse seems like a restyled Gran Prix in many ways.
    I see websites even calling the Saturn Relay on its aging Venture/Lumina APV chassis "All-New!"
    All-new is now a worthless term.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    I think we all agree. There are very few examples of all new cars. I think the old W cars from 1988 were all new except the engine. I'm sure there are other examples but why would anyone spend the money on tools and engineering to come out with 100% "all-new"?
  • 307web307web Posts: 1,033
    Well, I don't think a car needs to have100% all new parts, but it should have at least a signficantly redesigned drive train and platform not shared with older, pre-existing models to be considered all-new. Not simply a restyled body and interior and "refinements" of another similar model that has already been out on the market for years.
  • rwisemrwisem Posts: 96
    No question this term is over used. I disagree that a redesigned drivetrain is required. Good engine and transmission designs can serve well for many years with minor tweaks to take advantage of improvements in engine management systems.

    To me the largest issue is the basic chassis or platform of the car. When this is changed, you have, essentially, a different car

    When talking all new I think the most important comparison is to the last generation of that model. I think a good example is the current Malibu. It was not the first to use the chassis, but it is a completely different car from the '97-03 generation.

    Under my suggestions, the Lacrosse is not all new, but it is significantly re-engineered and my experience is that it is much improved over the models it replaces, something that doesn't always happen in a re-design. ( think Honda Civic and Nissan Maxima)
  • vanman1vanman1 Posts: 1,397
    Lacrosse is all new aside from the base engine and the platform. Body and interior is brand new and the 3.6L is just a year old. It's as new as anything!

    Of course some people like to discredit domestics no matter what and they are usually the same people who will forgive a Toyota engine sludge issue as just an anomaly.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    The distinction between new and non-new designs is related how to the Toyota sludge issue?

    BTW, I think the Malibu analogy was spot-on. THAT is/was an all new vehicle, IMO.

    Vanman1, you state "Lacrosse is all new aside from the base engine and the platform." those are some pretty major components. That's like saying a home is brand new because it has new siding and some interior renovations.

    Frankly, your posts frequently lack objectivity, and I think its insulting that you think "people like to discredit domestics no matter what". Here's a thought- how bout people favor better vehicles over lesser ones, and in many cases, domestics arent the better ones. There are many domestic designs that have a good deal of merit and competitive advantages over others, its just that the General doesnt produce many of them. The LaCrosse is a good car at a too high a price competing against better cars in a very croweded segment.

    ~alpha
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    In the premium midsize Initial quality survey. The first 4 places were:
    Century (Oshawa plant 2-best in America)
    Impala (Oshawa plant 1-2nd best in America)
    Grand Prix (Oshawa plant 2-best in America)
    LaCrosse (Not all new but significantly upgraded :P )(Oshawa plant 2-best in America)

    somewhere below:
    Camry
    Accord
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Actually the seat frames are pretty much carryover also.

    Also the platform is updated with front of dash sandwiched metal for quietness.

    The W platform is a good platform. It has a front suspension almost identical to Camry/Lexus. It now has an all new aluminum cradle. The worst thing is that styling is somewhat constrained due to the need for a longer front overhang than what is "stylish" today. The 3.8L is significantly updated for smoothness and quietness.

    Just the facts, man, just the facts.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Pricing will be adjusted as needed to get the volume it needs. GM is, as we know, revising pricing to have realistic MSRP's with lower incentives.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Just read that 3% of vehicles in the US today have indash navigation at about $2000. Should double in 5 years to 6%.
  • robchemistrobchemist Posts: 37
    "All new" can also be constued as "high risk". Sometimes you get it right, sometimes you get it wrong. I am not going to argue whether the Lacrosse should be called "all new" as opposed to "highly modified", as this becomes an argument on semantics. Regardless of what you want to call it, they certainly seem to have gotten the initial production right. An example of what can go wrong when you generate an "all new", or perhaps "extremely highly modified" vehicle, is the 2005 Honda Odyssey. It had a dismal showing in the Powers report, and a Honda spokesman (Yuzuru Matsuo) even noted that they screwed up the vehicle. Thus, I think that companies have to always balance the risk between something new and "better", but also perhaps faulty, and something well understood. Personally, I am a very strong believer in the axiom "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Although, at a certain point the benefits gained by going to a newer technology will certainly outweigh staying with an older and better understood technology.

    If you have a subscription to the online Wall Street Journal, you should be able to find the article at the link below (make sure there are no spaces in Web address). Or, you can just do a search on articles with the word Honda in it, and choose the Powers report.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB111643165721937012-search.htmlvql_string=honda+%3Cin%3E%28- - article%2Dbody%29&collection=wsjie/archive
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    "All new" can also be constued as "high risk". Sometimes you get it right, sometimes you get it wrong. I am not going to argue whether the Lacrosse should be called "all new" as opposed to "highly modified", as this becomes an argument on semantics. Regardless of what you want to call it, they certainly seem to have gotten the initial production right.

    Completely agreed, and GM should be lauded for nailing the quality of this vehicle from the get-go.

    ~alpha
  • vanman1vanman1 Posts: 1,397
    I was not aiming my comments at you.. but there are many people on this board who will always make up something to take away the credit of quality from GM and it makes me angry.

    What does "all new" mean? It's not defined by any sanctioning body so how can you say I'm wrong in saying the LaCrosse is "all new"? Just because you think it means one thing doesn't mean I define the term in the same way. There are lots of parts and technology in every car that has been used before so I could say there is no such thing as an "all new" car. Certainly on a % of new parts the LaCrosse is a new car also.

    In the end, Buick / GM has done a bang up job here on a new car regardless. Let's just leave it at that.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,376
    I just found in Washington Post.
    Very carefully written. Not by Car & Driver type...

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A8214-2004Dec17&- - - notFound=true

    The author's style is refreshingly honest and straightforward for ordinary drivers.
    His Camry review (03)
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A9337-2003Feb1&n- otFound=true
  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    "but there are many people on this board who will always make up something to take away the credit of quality from GM and it makes me angry"

    my comments may make you angry but it's my honest opinion. i mean i'm not intentionally making something up.

    reliability is only one aspect of quality. it appears that GM has closed the gap in terms of reliability. at least on their models with aging platforms.

    but in other aspects of quality such as assembly quality, quality of materials and refinement i find GM sedans to be lacking. excluding cadillac.

    do you honestly believe the more reliable century is overall a higher quality car than the less reliable passat? not by my definition of quality.

    the drivers of the century, impala and grand prix may have found less problems than those of drivers of the accord, camry and passat but you have a hard time convincing me those GM cars are in the same league as those foreign cars in overall quality.

    how well a car rides and handles, the car's interior ambience, how well panels line up and the refinement of the engine are part of quality too. even something as simple as how the glove box opens.

    in today's market the consumer is expecting a reliable car. it's a given. it comes down to who designs the best overall engineered cars.

    the 300M isn't such a huge hit because consumers believe the car is very reliable. no, i suspect it was the styling and horsepower that did it.

    i suspect you believe consumers drive their accords and camrys because of their reputation for reliability. i counter that this wouldn't matter much if they didn't like how the cars were engineered.

    hence, the impala and grand prix will still need heavy incentives to sell. i don't see the lacrosse doing much better. i think the saturn aura has potential though. i'm also looking forward to the ford fusion.

    hopefully i haven't tuned you into the incredible green hulk because you've gotten so angry!
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 2,119
    You make some good points. I have a friend who thinks he may want to buy a new luxury car. But he dithers because he is bedazzled by the stats that say a Lexus is more reliable than a Benz or a BMW. I tell him its not like any of those will leave him stranded by the side of the road every week, that the reliability stats mean nothing at that level, it's the experience of the car that's important. The Lexus is reliable but soulless. The Benz or the BMW are much more satisfying vehicles. But he thinks that because the stats are so important he will be making a mistake if he buys anything but the Lexus. It's nuts.

    2011 Buick Regal Turbo, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    the drivers of the century, impala and grand prix may have found less problems than those of drivers of the accord, camry and passat but you have a hard time convincing me those GM cars are in the same league as those foreign cars in overall quality.

    I think most would agree the feel and quality of materials in most GM's cars that were developed for cars before the '04 model year are lacking. The Century was designed a loooong time ago. But please look at the vehicles brought out after the CTS. The LaCrosse materials and fits and finishes are 2nd to none in its market. Door closing and glovebox closing efforts and sound have all been benchmarked against the competition. The Malibu and Cobalt, in their markets are also very competitive. The Impala, DTS and LuCerne will also be top notch.

    To go back and revise a carryover vehicle in these areas is prohibitively expensive. You have to wait for a major remodel.

    I only hope the new trucks are much better than what we have today. Trucks are what drives down the overall GM quality numbers and if not for them GM would be #1 for JD Powers quality instead of Toyota.

    I believe and I think the data is/will show the overall quality will be competitive or better. Time will show.

    Fits, finishes, quality of materials, appropriate gloss levels is one area that Lutz will not let the executives cheapen out anymore. He has said many times that he would rather put another $500 in the vehicle to make it competitive and beautiful than $1000 on incentives.

    Do you consider the Malibu an aging platform? It beat out all the respective vehicles from Honda and Toyota.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    JD Power supplies the actual quality data to the companies that pay for it. To the public they only allow press releases w/o these numbers and JD Power does not release them to the public. They also only put generic statements out like "Century #1 in American built cars". To really compare cars you have to do some work on their site and even then there are no hard numbers.

    I went and took a look at LaCrosse vs. the ES330. The LaCrosse did significantly better. Lacrosse beat out the lexus in Mechanical and Feature and Accessory quality. Tied in Body and Interior quality and overall quality.

    Go ahead and compare the data with the vehicles of your choice.

    www.JDPower .com

    Just the facts.
  • vanman1vanman1 Posts: 1,397
    We are not talking about a 10 year old Century model, we are talking about the LaCrosse and it IS absolutely on par with Camcords in terms of fit, finish and quality of materials. I have sat in them back to back and there is not a doubt in my mind.

    Compare apples to apples when you post. The Century, Regal and Impala are all old previous generation models. Lets keep on the LaCrosse vs Camcords and even look at the new 06 Impala rather than make poor and unfair comparisons.
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Hi all,
    How about looking at the long term numbers? The LaCrosse hasn't been around long enough to make a worthwhile comparison. I've had Buick cars before, an 86 Electra (which was horrendous in quality) and a '89 Park Avenue which was pretty decent. I started buying Lexus LS400/430's after. (Not a fair comparison, I know)

    I still have my 1992 LS400 with 94K and haven't had to do much to it. I've done brakes and shocks..Otherwise all scheduled maintenance. Not a rattle anywhere. That's the Lexus difference. I know plenty owners with ES300's that have done well over 150K with few if any problems.

    Mercedes ranks near the bottom in quality. They do have issues that can strand you. (Such as failure of Airmatic Suspension, and a messed up Comand System). BMW has done much better. Lack of soul is a very subjective argument. I'd rather have a car that is near bulletproof in quality.

    I'm impressed with the latest improvements in Buick cars. The Lucerne looks like a winner if it's priced right. A V-8 with FWD is definitely an interesting option. The cabin in the LaCrosse looks quite nice. With a little more spice in styling, I'm sure they'll do well.

    SV
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    OK lets look at long term numbers and facts from the 2004 JD Power Dependability survey of customers. ( not to mention the Consumer Reports Regal being #1 last year)

    The Chevy Malibu, Chevy Tahoe and GMC Sierra HD took top segment awards in the study, and a total of 14 GM vehicles ranked among the top three in their segments – two more than last year. In addition, Buick remains the No. 1 non-luxury nameplate and finished in second place overall among all nameplates.

    These are facts, not opinions (unless you count the customers as only having opinions) :confuse:

    I know it will take time to convince people that the GM cars are better. Remember it took years to convince Americans that the Japanese cars had improved theri quality after that American went over there and taught them how to build quality products. It was our American smugness that would not let us believe that othere countries could build a better product.

    GM has really improved their initial quality numbers in the last few years and in a couple years the long term dependability numbers will greatly improve over past models. The LaCrosse should have a great score, better than the Regal it replaced.
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Hi all,
    I did look at the Long term numbers for the '01 Park Ave and Regal vs the ES300. The Lexus did better, but not by much. I know first hand that Buick makes a good car. My Park Ave was near flawless. (Water pump replaced at 35K and door sensor).

    If you look at that article with the best factory quality Lexus was at the top of the list with the Tahara Japan plant. Having said all of that, I think Buick makes a great car. My '89 Park Ave was a great car, and I would easily recommend Buick to anyone. My only problem is the sharp depreciation these cars take. But the cheaper servicing cost will probably make up for that..It costs $108/hr to service my LS430 and LS400..

    I think Buick is on the right track with cars like the LaCrosse and Lucerne. My son, who is graduating from college is eagerly awaiting this car. If GM is trying to attract a younger crowd, then they are doing a great job with the Lucerne. It has a great interior and an interesting powertrain in the FWD-V8 combo.

    SV
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