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2005 Passat

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  • Is there any recent information on the scheduled release of the redesigned 05 Passat?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I'm starting to think this whole forum has gotten ahead of itself. I seriously doubt where will be a totally new Passat in 9-10 months. Unless it debuts at the Geneva (March), Chicago (Feb), or New York (April) autoshows it isn't going to happen for 2005 at least not for the U.S. market. They just added a another engine option (diesel) for the current car. I think spring of 2005 at the earliest is more relistic, that model of course would likely be a 2006. How knows they may just ship the car this fall without an autoshow debut, but it's highly unlikely.

    M
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,036
    When I spoke to VW representatives at the Boston auto show this past November, I was told that North America will not see the new Passat until the 06 model year. Something like sedan early summer 05 and wagon late fall 05.
  • I'm a bit confused here. If VW and Audi are "related" by blood, why does VW insist on going "upscale" and stepping on Audi's toes? A $30,000+ Passat has a name...it's called A4. To make the Passat "upscale" and give it Audi-like warranty and features just makes it another A4. Let's be honest, too...most people would rather have the Audi badge on their car than VW.

    It just seems like duplicity to have VW offer equivocal models in both the VW and Audi names. So why would VW offer a $36k Passat when you could buy a 3.0Q A4 for the same price??? Heck, for $9k more, get the S4!!!
  • The models in the future will not be "as equivalent" as they may appear to be today.

    The strategy is Audi guns for BMW and VW guns for Mercedes.

    VW will -- according to VW management -- offer 90 - 95% of Mercedes classic luxury at 80 - 85% of the price (plus be all wheel drive, which adds big bucks to the Mercs).

    This may or may not prove anything or sway your opinion -- it is more or less a statement of market positioning plans that will, apparently, become more visible with the 2005's. By the 2007's the differentiation should be considerably stronger. As many have noted, the success remains to be seen.

    I am delighted at the prospect of more upscale VW's -- and also delighted at the prospect of more dynamic Audis.

    I suspect there will still be less than $20K VW's -- heck even Audi is bringing the A3 to market in the US.
  • You suggest that VW wants to become more upscale, but what was great about VW was that it was affordable, not cheap but affordable. I like it most because it doesn't make me feel pretentious. If VW wants to be comapred to Mercedes Benz, they have to make the new VWs at least impressive in order to raise prices. The Phaeton and the Touareg are impressive.
    Right now they are just nice cars, more often compared to Toyota and Honda. They have to make luxurious features available. The only popular features that are not available today are a navigation system and keyless ignition. I just think being able to start your car without sticking the key in the ignition is impressive and being impressive is what luxury is all about.
  • snjaysnjay Posts: 1
    Nissan - Infiniti
    Toyota - Lexus

    I wonder why VW didn't follow and launch a new brand for upmarket cars. I'm not a marketing genius but it seems to me that it would be easier to repackage an upscale jetta/passat/toureg/phaeton with a new brand name rather than try and convince the richest 3% that VW is a player in the big leagues... Toyota prettied up a camry as an es300 and sold tons of them. I know Audi is the upmarket of VW, but it seems that Audi is geared more toward sporty cars...If VW is going after Mercedes with their new VW's, why couldn't they call them something else and leave the current VW's to the remaining 97% that can afford the current lineup.
  • I wonder this myself. Perhaps Phaeton will be the new "implied" name.

    But, look at it this way, Aurora didn't save Oldsmobile and didn't make people, who bought their Aurora's at Olds dealerships forget that they were buying a car from the Oldsmobile dealer.

    You have a very interesting point -- VWGUILD, care to opine?
  • wstevecwstevec Posts: 126
    Has anyone found any updated pictures of the 2005 Passat? Thanks.
  • Just wanted to add a few comments to this interesting discussion...

    VW offering new upmarket models (Phaeton) and higher content/cost versions of current models (Passat W8) does NOT automatically mean that it will soon be impossible to purchase a VW for less than US$20K... from reading a few of the prior posts, some folks actually BELIEVE that this IS/will soon be the case. As all-too-few voices of reason pointed out, GL versions (which include power windows and other amenities) of the Golf and New Beetle CAN be had for for WELL under $20K, and given that such vehicles share lots of content from their more costly VW and Audi brethren, these 'low-end' VWs represent excellent value IMHO. True, they're not quite as inexpensive as 'comparable' Japanese and American offerings, but they have their own appealing qualities that differentiate them from the pack and justify their added cost to many buyers, myself included. Whenever I'm driving around in my satin silver 2000 Golf GLS TDI fully optioned automatic (which is more of a $21K+ car pricewise, though I bought it one year old for $16K) I'm DELIGHTED with the quality of the car in almost every respect... both in the things very visible to the eye (instruments, dash materials, switchgear) and in the things that are less apparent (panel fit and finish, weight and closure of door/hood/hatch, overall solidity, etc...). Is it perfect? No of course not, but I feel that it's a very good value all things considered. And even at today's prices, a manual gas Golf GL with all of that tactile goodness will come in for a fair bit less than $20K with change to spare.

    Just because VW already offers $80K+ Phaetons (W12) and will likely offer $40K versions of the B6 Passat (even if the W8 doesn't make it into the new model lineup) there's no reason to assume that new, decent near-future (A5) versions of the Golf, New Beetle and even Jetta won't continue to be available for $17-$24K (excepting specialty models like the R32, etc...). Profit margins for vehicles at that part of the market might not be as juicy for VW as $40K Passats and $50K Touregs, but there's still money to be made there, and even more importantly, it's vital for a manufacturer with such a wide range of price points as VW has to provide attractive 'entry-level' offerings for younger customers. To think VW would simply START it's model lineup with $30K Passats (let alone Jettas) in the future is just unrealistic IMHO. Of course, prices and content creep up over time, but manufacturers usually slot a new entry-level offering in at the bottom of the lineup eventually (as with Toyota's Echo and Scion brand) or offer passable 'base' models despite very thin profit margins (Nissan's Sentra and base Honda Civics). I personally wouldn't be surprised to someday see VW bring a sub-Golf car to the US market if it made economic sense to do so (a revised Lupo or Polo-class car, or maybe something from Seat or Skoda).

    A few more thoughts:

    Folks lamenting/cursing VW for not offering cars at the same relative price points as the original Beetle and bus: that was decades ago... the world, car markets, and buyer expectations have changed vastly since then. If you feel that VW is being too greedy charging $16-17K for a Golf or New Beetle, you're free to vote with you dollars and buy something else. Korean manufacturers now provide a number of choices in the $9-13K price range, and the quality of their products has been improving steadily.

    Of course I agree that many VW dealers leave much to be desired in terms of service, and that if VW wants to cater to an increasing number of more affluent customers, they're going to have to improve customer service by several notches. Let me add that I've received crappy service from Mercedes dealers too, and the most disappointing, problem-prone (and expensive) new car I ever owned was a $50K Mercedes CLK. And of course, the nonchalant customer service of Toyota dealers is legendary, despite their reliable products. San Juan Capistrano VW has pretty good service btw, in case any of you live in SoCal. They're especially adept with TDIs, which many other VW dealers know little about.

    Yes, a VW isn't as trouble-free as a Camry or Accord, I know. But bear in mind that this fact in and of itself shouldn't stand in the way of VW getting into the thick of it with Mercedes... according to CR surveys and my own experiences, MBs, Audis and BMWs are no more reliable in general than VWs are right now, yet folks still line up to shell out $30-80K to buy them.

    BTW, I'm always amused when folks talk about Jettas as if they were something inherently different (better) than Golfs. Doesn't everyone savvy enough to read forums like this already KNOW that the Jetta and Golf are just about identical in every respect? The Jetta IS a Golf, except for the fact that it has a trunk instead of hatch, has differently shaped headlights, provides less rear-seat headroom, costs more, and can be had with some snazzier options/packages courtesy of VW's decision to market their small sedan as 'uplevel' from the more 'utilitarian' hatchback Golf to Americans. And this business of folks talking about the '04 Jetta like it's a new model is just as silly... just because VW ads tout it as 'new' doesn't actually mean that it's substantially different than the 2000-2003 Jetta. The NEW (A5) Jetta comes out NEXT year (as an '05 model, possibly buyable in late '04). Mechanically, the New Beetle too is very similar to the Golf and Jetta too btw, albeit with a different body/interior and a firmer base suspension.

    Other interesting new/ish cars in/near the Golf/Jetta/Passat class that I saw at the recent LA autoshow: Mazda's 3 (especially the 5 door) and 6 wagon: very nice interiors and attractive price-points; Toyota's new Prius (drives amazingly well, though of course you pay a premium for the costly options packages) and Solara (sort of ugly, but even more of a poor-man's Lexus coupe at only $21-25K than the first gen Solara); Acura's new TL (I also like the smaller TSX which is based on the European Accord platform), Honda's V6 Accord coupe with 6 speed and their Element (I'm hoping for a hybrid version); Saab's 9-2 (a Subaru Impreza WRX in Saab clothing). And Scion's new tC coupe also looked very interesting too (it has the Camry's larger 4 cylinder engine, not the smaller Echo engine used in the Scion xA and xB).

    Finally, I for one am very much looking forward to the new (B6) Passat. I liked the original slimmer, smoother B5 better than the current face-lifted B5.5 which is a bit too heavy on the chrome for my tastes, but it's a good car. A B6 Passat Wagon with a torquey TDI engine could very well be in my future when I'm ready for a change from the Golf and my other car (a '00 Miata with the factory sport suspension package). Of course by that time, a nice used Phaeton 8 might not cost much more than a new high-zoot Passat, so you never know! ;-)
  • I have been one of the soldiers marching to the beat that proclaims VW is moving "up market."

    I have also stressed, to define the point, the VW company line as I have read it in many magazines from both sides of the Atlantic and on several web sites.

    The VW blueprint seems to be to "offer 90% - 95% of Mercedes content (generally PLUS all wheel drive) at 80% - 85% of the price.

    This IS NOT inconsistent with sub $20,000 cars from VW.
    First, this master plan does not suggest that -- in the US for example -- that VW will only have available cars that compete with Mercedes on a model by model basis. If there is NO US Mercedes sold for $20,000 it does not automatically translate to the end of $16,000 VW's in this market.

    And, even if that were the case, there certainly will be a transistion period of several model years.

    On the other hand, Mercedes over the past years has been bringing lower priced cars to market (some in the US market, some not). The "C" class for example when run through the VW master plan will yield an "equivalent" C class VW at 80% of Mercedes price.

    Even Audi is going to bring the A3 to our market and all of these German manufacturers offer lower (down market) models and configurations.

    The master plan as it has been written about is NOT a US only plan.

    I can't quote chapter and verse the Mercedes global line up -- but it is possible with some time on the web to find Mercedes that when discounted 20% will produce price points within VW's targets and within a range that approximates the current price scheme.

    Over time -- 5 years perhaps? -- VW overall expects to move up market and up price. Will VW ultimately "start" their bottom prices over $20,000 (adjusted for inflation and exhange rates)? Beats me.

    My interpretation of the articles written is for VW to create "S" class competitive products -- they are already doing that with the Phaeton. There will be supposedly a car in-between the Passat and Phaeton (a sort-of "E" class?). And there will be some more sporting cars (some already shown as concept cars) brought to market.

    The V10 diesel Tourareg could easily top $60,000, too.

    So, "we're all correct." The average price of VW's is heading north -- but there is at least circumstantial evidence that this is more from additions to the top end, rather than subtractions from the bottom end.

    Many here believe this move up market will fail miserably. I am not one of those, but I am in the "we'll see" camp.

    The other area is the divergence of VW and Audi much more so than has been the case historically. Despite the Phaeton's stated target (Mercedes) and Audi's target (BMW), the current generation of VW and Audi do seem to share much.

    Between now and calendar 2005 and model year 2007 there is "supposed" to be a more rapidly developing Audi and VW identity as "separate" cars, aimed at disparate buyers.

    Again, we'll see.

    Don't fret, for the time being, that there will be no VW's under $30K -- even if this happens, it will not happen overnight.
  • Can anyone verify if the new Passat wagon TDI will come with an AWD/4 motion option?
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Posts: 2,363
    No, the only configuration for this go-around in the US market will be sedan/wagon with Tiptronic in FWD.

    When the redesigned car ['06 model] finally arrives here, then I wouldn't be surprised to see more variety. Given the short life left on the current body, it seems VWoA decided to certify only the one drivetrain combination for now.
  • avenger1avenger1 Posts: 90
    Well, VW wanted to go upscale, blah blah. Unfortunately, by focusing all their attention on bringing out vehicles that thumb their noses at the very audience they built through building the "peoples car", they neglected the area that brings them profits (high volume).

    Hopefully this will be a wakeup call to VW and second think the "upscale" move and focus on bridging the gaps they created....Hey VW, get working on the Sfero, and quickly!

    See article below:

    Volkswagen's U.S. strategy of maintaining high residual values while avoiding generous incentives is coming unglued.

    The German automaker this month sharply increased incentives to $2,000 per vehicle after suffering a disastrous 25.9 percent U.S. sales decline in January.

    VW had sharply reduced incentives that month to what Edmunds.com estimates was $420 per vehicle - down from about $1,100 in 2003 - to stem sliding profits. But the automaker reversed course after dealers demanded action last month and Volkswagen of America Inc. President Gerd Klauss lobbied corporate parent Volkswagen AG for help.

    "The programs in January and February were absolutely 100 percent uncompetitive," says Al Gossett of Gossett Motor Cars, a multibrand dealer in Memphis, Tenn. "We had nothing to talk about with customers. We didn't have anything to advertise."

    VW on March 2 began offering:

    >>> Lower lease payments on Jettas and Passats

    >>> 0.9 percent financing for a broader range of models

    >>> 1.9 percent financing for certified used cars

    >>> $500 loyalty coupons to current owners and lessees

    >>> Cash bonuses for dealers who meet sales goals.

    The program runs through April.

    Volkswagen of America is pouring on the incentives even as Volkswagen AG struggles to cut $2.5 billion in costs. The automaker is reducing capital spending and will eliminate 5,000 jobs by 2005.

    The company announced the cost-cutting plan after disclosing that its first-quarter earnings would be miserable.

    Even with the new incentives, dealers and company executives concede that 2004 will be a tough year. Volkswagen of America hopes to sell 300,000 units, down from 302,686 last year and 355,648 in 2001.

    The problem is product. High-volume products such as the Jetta, Golf and Passat are almost 7 years old. VW won't introduce redesigned versions until 2005. So Volkswagen of America has launched its most costly incentives package since it began rebuilding its brand image a decade ago.

    VW's U.S. sales began to drop in mid-2002 after reaching a 28-year high in 2001. But this year's plunge horrified dealers, and they demanded action at last month's National Automobile Dealers Association convention in Las Vegas.

    The automaker responded. Leases account for about 40 percent of VW dealer sales, and VW has sweetened lease deals to promote the Jetta and Passat. Consumers can obtain a 39-month lease for a Passat GL for $219 a month. A Jetta GL is available for $179 a month.

    Dealers say the new incentives already are helping sales. "This past weekend we had our best weekend probably in the last six months," says Eddie Lee of Lewisville Volkswagen, north of Dallas. "I can't imagine a dealer not being satisfied with what they put out there right now."

    Lee likes the lower finance rate for certified used cars. "VW gave us nearly new-car rates on pre-owned cars, which makes a huge difference," he says. "Our used-car business has increased dramatically over last year."

    Lee added that he is examining his operation with an eye to cutting costs, and is counting on other profit centers such as parts and service to weather the sales slump. "That's how we're surviving," Lee said.

    But dealers didn't get everything they wanted. VW refused to accelerate the U.S. introductions of the redesigned Jetta and Passat, scheduled for 2005. VW plans to launch the Passat in Germany this year.

    Some dealers accept VW's decision. Gene Langan, chairman of the VW national dealer council, says the slower launch will ensure vehicle quality.

    "I think it's paramount that we launch these new products right," Langan says. "I would rather us do it right than bring them ahead three or four months and not be ready. Let's make sure we're ready - the quality's there, we have an adequate parts supply and we have a good mix of cars at launch."

    Dealers say sales appear to be stabilizing. But VW's new incentives carry risks. Previously, the automaker had avoided the unrestrained price wars triggered by the Big 3.

    Last year VW's incentives averaged $1,103 per vehicle, according to Edmunds.com, a consumer information service in Santa Monica, Calif. That was lower than the average of $1,648 for European automakers and substantially lower than the industry average of $2,426 per vehicle.

    By sacrificing some sales, VW maintained some of the industry's highest residual values. Among high-volume brands, VW's residual values are second only to Honda and Toyota.

    Residual values are calculated by subtracting the estimated resale value of a vehicle at the end of its lease from its original list price. Automakers and banks use this calculation when they set lease rates for new vehicles.

    Residual values are affected immediately when an automaker offers big cash rebates, says Jeremy Anwyl, Edmunds.com president.

    While VW has not resorted to big cash rebates, the company is starting to compete on price. Says Anwyl: "If you throw a thousand dollars on a car you will see an impact on residual values - particularly on 2-, 3- and 4-year-old vehicles - almost immediately."

    VW's troubles are beginning to soften the market value of its dealerships. Overall, blue-sky values for VW stores are declining at a time when other franchises are enjoying increases.

    Blue sky is the price of a dealership beyond the value of physical assets. Typically it is the value of intangible assets such as location, franchise strength, reputation, customer base and profit potential.

    Sheldon Sandler, founder of Bel Air Partners, an investment firm servicing dealerships in Princeton, N.J., says blue-sky values of VW dealerships have slipped to three times pre-tax earnings, down from four times earnings before sales started to slide.

    Even if sales recover, a VW dealership is not likely to command the blue-sky valuations of a Toyota, Honda, or BMW franchise, Sandler says. "But I'd still like to be a Volkswagen dealer," he adds. "They still make money."

    Source: Auto Week
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    What does this have to do with the 2005 Passat? Specifically?
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Posts: 647
    Not much....don't know why it was posted here.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Sounds like dealers sorely need new product.

    -juice
  • avenger1avenger1 Posts: 90
    the new releases by VW (including PASSAT) will move upscale in terms of pricing. Previous posts by others and myself, stated that the passat will leave behind the target audience they built in order to rebrand themselves as a "luxury" brand.

    Some of us argued that this move will hurt VW, and my post is an example that VW is neglecting it's base to shoot for a goal overnight that most people will not accept right away.

    I say, what's wrong with the passat competing with the camery/accord/etc? Why the need to move upscale so quickly (other that easy profits)?

    any comments?
  • avenger1avenger1 Posts: 90
    welcome the the chat....
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Posts: 647
    The article you posted had more to do with current sales, current models, current incentives, and VW's current dilemma than it did with what VW is doing in 2005 to help the situation.
  • machaanmachaan Posts: 30
    My VW dealer was begging me to take home a Passat $1000 below invoice. I suspect the re-sale values will plumment soon becuase of
    1) well publicised coil-recalls
    2) new redesign around the corner
    3) Huge incentives which are only going to get bigger in the coming months
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Well, if you think the existing model is all sorted out by now, it might make for a good value purchase.

    -juice
  • rickroverrickrover Posts: 602
    It's been sorted out for awhile - Passat has been on CR's recommended list for some time now. I had a 2000 Passat that never gave me a single problem in 60,000 miles. Now I have an 03 Jetta diesel wagon that's carrying on the same tradition - 14k miles without a single issue. VW's are as or more reliable than a Honda or Toyota in my experience.
  • machaanmachaan Posts: 30
    Read the post "3 Week-old '04 Passat GLS Failed to Start" on "Volkswagen Passat Owners: Problems & Solutions"
    This completely unexcusable. They have been making the current model for the last 4 years. One would imagine they would have sorted out the bugs buy now. There are plenty on '02 complaining already.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,107
    Does the Passat W8 "sport" -- my personal choice for the best bang for the buck (in the Passat family) -- get the kind of push from VW and its dealers suggested in the last few pushes?

    And, is it true that the next gen Passat will no longer offer the W8, opting instead for a mildly turbo-charged 3.2 V6 which will provide great torque at sub 2K RPM's?

    And, if this IS true, is the reason not due to the W8's "badness" but more due to the packaging considerations of the W8 vs the V6 (under hood area is limited by the new Passat body, i.e.)?
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,678
    It's my understanding that the W8 takes no more space under the hood than a V6. I hear, never seen, that it's like a big box.
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Posts: 647
    A mechanic at my local VW dealer said that the W8 has had relatively frequent problems with oil seals leaking.
    Any W8 owners care to comment?
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,576
    Owned one for a while.
    Very interesting vehicle.
    No problems with oil leaks.
    No significant problems aside from more depreciation than I'd hoped for - largely due to VWoA marketing efforts and support (or more precisely, the lack thereof) IMHO.
    - Ray
    Owned 2 VWs - '61 (classic?) Beetle and an '02 W8 . . .
  • rickroverrickrover Posts: 602
    Not every car a manufacturer makes is perfect. I'm sure there are 02 Honda Accords and Toyota Camry's that have had starting problems. Passats have been on Consumer Reports recommended reliability list. Nothing is perfect, although my VW's are close.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Posts: 690
    Looks like most of the manufacturers are slipping a bit in the quality/reliability department - based on the NHTSA recall bulletins I've read in the past few weeks..
This discussion has been closed.