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Comments
Nope. That post is based on a tidbit of misinformation that ended up getting been blown way out of proportion. You'll find follow-up details on the big Yahoo group clarifying the misunderstanding.
JOHN
> John said: “How rapidly do technology costs fall? The answer is, so fast that the quote is no longer accurate. Where did it say "drive train" only? That technology actually includes all the computer components and the Multi-Display too. So the song I've been singing of "now less than $3,000" is quite realistic now, especially if you eliminate the Multi-Display.
___Hi John, I just pointed out what it said. You received a car smaller than the Echo that you should have paid just $3,500 more for it + the amenities. Then you are asking me what it costs? From late 01 when the Toyota engineer made the statement to today, the Prius technology may cost even less. I believe we are both agreeing here. So why would it cost so much more to place that technology in the recently redesigned Corolla that many more could afford in stead of a more expensive recently redesigned Prius?
> John said: “It doesn't cost that much anymore. The latest & greatest CAD systems allow amazing new designs to be tested at much, much lower costs. Also, how do you know that the budget quotes for the classic Prius didn't also include this development step? Remember, the Japanese culture is based on long-term effort, quite different from the mindset on this side of the world.”
___I don’t know really what it costs but with every single part being redesigned and manufactured, A billion dollars seems about right given all the testing and reg’s as well as new HW on the line and in the dealerships ... I don’t know what it costs exactly but I haven’t seen anyone else make even a relatively good guesstimate either?
> John said: “That's why the system is *MODULAR*, which allows it to be installed in other vehicles. And guess what. You'll find it in many other hybrid vehicles starting next year. So the volume goal, which is actually 300,000 units, can be achieved.”
___Again, the public and TOYOTA has to pay maybe another $2,500 just because? Toyota had to spend the money on the newly redesigned Prius when they didn’t have to are my thoughts. I am still waiting to hear the justification if it did in fact cost a Billion dollars for the new platform. This should have been in the consumers and Toyota’s pocket. Than we would see more adopters.
> John said: “They will. Patience. Regardless of how you feel, the reality is that Toyota is progressing much faster than all of the rest of the competition... COMBINED! So the rate of progress is actually rather swift.”
___You aren’t seeing my point. Less Green automobiles will be purchased over the next few years because Toyota decided to redesign (2) platforms instead of just one. Toyota would have won, the consumer would have won, and the earth would have one if they had instead designed just 1. There was no swift about it. They designed the 04 Prius from scratch the same way they did the 03 Corolla. I don’t see any swift at all. Just spend the design money wisely and it’s a Win Win instead of a low production high cost platform that many cannot afford but should.
> John said: “The oldest generation will typically ask one of their children for help before making such a significant purchase decision, too much money is at stake to not ask. They are well aware of the fact that the label indicating "cleanest" is something they aren't familiar with. They are also far more interested in what the impact of our current actions will have on the future than the oldest generation ... THEY ARE VERY CONCERNED!”
___So you asked your family, friends, co-workers, and neighbors if they are willing to spend $5,000 + more for one of the cleanest automobiles available when just two seconds before they didn’t even know what the differences were? Again, go ask your co-workers if they are/were willing to give Toyota another $5,000 dollars for a cleaner machine in 01 or even today? America as a whole speaks with their pocket book unfortunately.
> John said: You are assuming that the redesign isn't capable of supporting a hybrid drive train, why? Waiting until that newly redesigned model is already common makes a whole lot more sense than introducing it immediately; otherwise, people would assume it was designed to be a hybrid rather than a traditional vehicle adapted to be one afterward. Make note of how well that worked for Honda. The concept is ALREADY established. Waiting so the same thing could be done makes a lot of sense.
___As I said before, the redesigned Corolla could have been designed as a larger, smaller, or the exact same size as the Prius without the additional cost of an entire platform. Both Toyota and the public now pays. As far as fit of the Hybrid drive train into a Corolla, the Prius is already 3.8 “ shorter and just 1” wider. I don’t think there would have been any trouble whatsoever given the planned design of the exterior size of either vehicle.
> John said: “All of the reviews compliment about how much more spacious the interior of the new Prius is. Continuing to insist that the car is still a "compact" is totally inappropriate. It is bigger.”
___Every First drive I have read mentioned the 04 Prius is not as large as the Camry so why do you consider it a midsize? If it were a sedan, it would have been a compact. If the Corolla would have been a Hatch, it would miss the Mid-size designation by a foot and a half (cu ft). As reviewed in Canadian Driver online - Prius First drive. “Although slightly smaller than a Camry, it is now classed as a mid-size sedan.” Remember the hatchback design? They are also comparing [non-permissible content removed] to the first Prius which was quite small by comparison. As reviewed by Edmunds, “Cons
Less power and room than other midsize sedans ...”. Also, “It's still not as big as a Camry, but two adults can sit comfortably in back.”.
> John said: WRONG! The "AI" package ...
___Since I was speaking to Mr Djasonw about the additional features he was asking about, $4,000, is what it ~ costs for most of those extra’s, not just the Keyless start. I only wish Bluetooth, DVD based NAV, and Keyless start, cost just $1,100 ... All of this is in a $4,000 option package if I remember correctly?
> John said: “You are basing your "facts" on a brief test-drive a reporter took. That's not the best of ideas. Their data is extremely limited. Ask actual owners what their real-world data is after having driven for a couple of years, that is far more useful information. You'll find that the midpoint for efficiency is around 45 MPG, which is quite a bit higher than what a reporter unfamiliar with the vehicle got.”
___What I am basing TCO on is YOUR Prius. I can’t change the fact that you are about to take a $8,000 to $9,000 hit and I am being quite generous with my figures if Edmunds or KBB can be trusted. A car with 60,000 miles is not Excellent by any sense of the imagination. On the other note, If the average Prius owner is receiving ~ 45 miles/gallon today, I am sure glad I am receiving 41 in the Corolla now and saved the initial $5,000 +, and will take less of a hit at trade in time. If you want to see what many are receiving on trade in, look at what I posted about what your car is worth? I didn’t make these numbers up but obviously Edmunds and KBB must have according to you, right?
> John said: First, you can't consider the sale of a first year model of a brand new type of car "typical". Later as people become familiar with what the hybrid has to offer, the value will become more competitive so I'd get a higher return on my investment. Second, my Prius is in excellent condition. Not just good. And the dealer agrees. Third, you are forgetting that I don't have to pay taxes on the trade-in value for my old Prius when purchasing the new one. That means I will immediately save an additional $800.
___So what about the 02’s and 03 Prius’? Same rules apply ... You said Higher return? You have got to be kidding me. You own a smaller 01 car than an 01 Corolla with less performance and you are about to get murdered on trade because you were an early adopter? I don’t get what is so hard to understand about TCO here? The 04 should be a little closer given the extra amenities will save some but the high initial cost and that battery replacement still looms in its future.
___As for American’s spending money, I believe the 04 Prius will be a great success. The only problem being is that it could have been made $2,500 cheaper where the economics do work out better and that many more would be buying them thus saving the emissions of all the Ford Focus’, Chevy Cavalier’s, Nissan Altima’s, and yes, even Toyota’s own Corolla.
> John said: A grim reality that more and more people have to face nowadays is the fact that their high-mileage vehicle, which still runs great, does not pass the emissions test. They end up having to spend hundreds of dollars unexpectly to have the vehicle tuned to be cleaner.
___Another BS statement ... I owned an 87 Mercury Sable w/ 172,000 miles on it and it passed its last emission test. I own a 92 Toyota Previa with 176,000 miles on it and it still passes its emission tests. I also own a 91 Honda Accord w/ 165,000 miles and it still passes its emission tests. The only vehicle that hasn’t passed in my lifetime is a 97 Nissan P/U I paid just $7,200 brand new. I was hit from behind at a light ($5,000 in damage repair) and the Cat failed. That truck is gone. On your side of the equation, if the emissions fail on a Prius, what is that going to cost? I haven’t looked at recent Emission failures but even a CAT for the Nissan was only $720.00 on a car with 102,000 miles on it. I would hate to think what the battery replacement is going to be on your 01 or 04 Prius when you hit 176K, 172K, and 162K like I have ... Throw the car away is what you are going to do.
___Jchan2, I don’t know why it is only $13,995 (dealer retail) w/ only $4K on it but I have seen it in person and it looks great! Same thing with that new 03 Prius on E-Bay for $16K. It was practically brand new!
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
> in fact cost a Billion dollars for the new platform.
I have already stated the same reason countless times now.
TOYOTA WANTS TO INCREASE THEIR MARKETSHARE IN THE UNITED STATES TO 15% BY 2010.
Simply adding a hybrid option to an existing car isn't enough, especially since people will simply just buy that instead. But creating an entirely new car (a large hatchback) offers an additional draw to the Toyota selection.
> You aren’t seeing my point. Less Green automobiles will
> be purchased over the next few years
I see your point, you want things now, in the short-term (the next few years).
My goal is to help with the long-term (the next decade). That insures sales will continue beyond just the short-term you are focused on.
> go ask your co-workers if they are/were willing to give
> Toyota another $5,000 dollars for a cleaner machine in
> 01 or even today?
I already did. They said, "YES!"
They stated that as soon as the technology was available in a minivan, they'd jump on the opportunity. They've seen how well the Prius has worked for me. So they are more than willing to spend the extra (which isn't $5000, by the way) to get it for themselves.
Just watch, when the hybrid version of the Sienna becomes available, sales will be quite impressive.
> is not as large as the Camry so why do you consider it
> a midsize?
"Midsize" is not an exact measurement, it is a range. Prius fits within that range... which is larger than "Compact".
> What I am basing TCO on is YOUR Prius.
Why?
That doesn't help anyone. You should focus on what is currently available, not a vehicle that is no longer in production.
I wish to help others. So I see no need to further spend time just repeating the same facts over and over and over again to you. Feel free to ask something new; otherwise, goodbye.
JOHN
Exel: what price would the average buyer REALLY pay for a Corolla LE with option combination #2? What about a Camry? What is the "mean mileage to failure" of a Corolla/Camry? I can put these numbers in my comparison spreadsheet and come up with a more accurate comparison.
John: what price will the average buyer pay for the Prius? I assume they will pay MSRP. What is the expected lifetime range of the battery pack? Unfortunately, I will have to assume the battery will fail at the lower number, given my luck.
Going by the new numbers, it looks like the Prius is not a smart purchace.
As far as environmental stuff, the Prius will not help because its cost/benefit ratio is too high for the average buyer. Also, most people in our country don't care about environmental stuff...otherwise they wouldn't buy big SUV's for city driving and commuting...they'd buy civics or corollas. So what would make them buy a Prius?
When the back-orders are finally filled, prices should return to what they were previously. That's about $500 below MSRP.
> What is the expected lifetime range of the battery pack?
The pack is expected to last the LIFETIME of the vehicle in normal conditions, if you read the engineering & research papers. If read documentation that could be considered a liability later, you'll find a quote of only 150,000 miles.
The reason for the withholding is simple, not everyone will achieve lifetime use. Hot extremes (+115F temperatures) is one sure way to shorten the life of any type of battery. Another is intentional deep-discharging, like driving several miles *AFTER* running out of gas.
> So what would make them buy a Prius?
They won't! That's why HSD (Hybrid Synergy Drive) is modular, so it can be adapted for use in other vehicles.
Forcing someone who wants to drive a SUV into a Prius is wrong. Instead, you should force them to drive a HYBRID SUV instead. And with HSD, you can. Everybody wins, especially when you take into account the fact that high-volume production of HSD will help to drive costs down.
JOHN
You said that the battery was designed to last the lifetime of the Prius...well...what is that lifetime?? That is the critical issue! If the lifetime is similar to a Corolla/Camry, than the cost of replacing the battery pack does not have to be added to the TCO comparison with the Corolla.
But if the average Corolla can go 200k or 250k miles before needing major repairs, and the Prius can only go 150k or 175k before battery replacement, then the Prius becomes much more expensive to own!
According to your last post, there was a report that the expected life was only 150,000. This would mean that we would have to add the cost of a battery replacemant to the TCO comparison. This would mean that the Prius is not cost-competitive with the Corolla/Camry.
Please understand I have nothing against hybrid technology. It just might take a little longer before they "break even" with the cost of owning a similar non-hybrid car. Like you have said, it takes time for new technology to emerge. Personally I think hybrids are a good idea for making gasoline vehicles more efficient, even if they are still expensive at this point in time.
Earlier, I concluded that the new Prius had reached the "break even" point with a similar non-hybrid car. But recently it has been pointed out that some of my pricing data was innacurate, as well as my estimation of the expected lifetime of a Corolla/Camry. So, if you can give evidence that the average new Prius is expected to last as long as the average Corolla/Camry w/o needing a battery replacement, this will restore some of my former confidence that the new Prius is close to breaking even.
> that the expected life was only 150,000.
NO! Please read more carefully.
I said it is only LISTED to last 150,000 miles. Some will in fact need to be replaced then, others with last much much much longer.
Basically, the 150,000 mark is where the data becomes flakey and the consistency is lost, making it inappropriate to claim anything beyond that distance. So they don't.
It's no different than any other component on a vehicle. After a certain age, length of service begins to really differ based on specific driving habits, specific road conditions, specific temperatures, specific etc... So just like an accountant has to do, you choose a value and that's what you use for all your "break even" calculations. Then just count the miles past that as "extra".
2 Prius that I know of have already PASSED 150,000 miles without any trouble, the battery-pack continued to work fine.
JOHN
Prius-2004
RX-400
Highlander
Sienna
The 1 common factor in these vehicles is that they all have 5 doors and with rear seat folded, they offer a lot of space. No wonder the vehicles that come under SUV, SUW, Sport Wagon, Mini-van, CUV segements are capturing share from traditional 4-door sedans. This is the type of vehicle that are in demand all over the world.
Toyota is correct in following that route.
Here in Minnesota, it's pretty sweet. The battery-pack appreciates the cold. NiMH batteries generate a lot of heat, operating in a cool environment helps out.
So expect those that live in the North, who just drive normally and never abuse the pack (ex: driving after you run out of gas), should be the ones to set distance records well past 200,000 miles. But how many is nearly impossible to predict, since routine use of the pack helps promote longer life too.
JOHN
From the looks of things, it may be just time for some of you to agree to disagree. However, if any of you choose to take issue with someone's message, thereby continuing an ongoing debate..., you must use civil/friendly language.
Otherwise, your only other option is to ignore the comments you don't agree with. Keep in mind, that continuing to respond to posts you don't like... will only bring more unwanted posts; sometimes it's not such a bad idea to let the other person have the last word.
Lastly, regardless of the circumstances, members should not be telling other members how to conduct themselves in these discussions. You are feel free to email me if you see any posts here that you think are in violation of our Town Hall guidelines.
And let's get back to the subject of this discussion. Thanks!
Revka
Host of Hatchbacks & Wagons
Just wanted to share this anecdote because the 150,000 miles listed in the warranty is probably as far as Toyota's engineers & lawyers will let them go. But like many performance claims, it is almost certainly conservative to avoid the potential for litigation.
Looking forward to ordering mine...
Actually, Vancouver (small world, eh?) holds the North American distance record currently.
322,000 kilometres is how far a driver used a Prius as a cab before he parted with it. (That's over 200,000 miles!) Toyota ended up buying it from him so they could study the real-world effects of high-mileage use.
JOHN
You'll probably *never* find out. The lab tests can't provide that data. And the real-world won't either... since by the time enough owners drive far enough to exhaust a pack to determine an average, the technology would have improved so much that there won't be any doubt about them lasting well past 200,000 miles anyway.
So we basically have no choice but to use the accounting method and only work the numbers up to 150,000 miles for now... which provides another reason why Toyota hasn't introduced a hybrid Corolla yet. By the time they do, there won't be a battery life question anymore.
JOHN
JOHN
___Kpoeppel, if you are speaking of the Prius option pack number 2, it is not available on the Corolla LE just as a Sun Roof and Leather aren’t an available option on the Prius. What it appears is that the Corolla could have had the EXACT same features and amenities (exact same Hybrid Drive-train w/ exact EPA ratings - PZEV/SULEV, exact same layout – Hatchback) for possibly $2,000 - $3,000 less from what I can deduce? Maybe Toyota is promoting the Prius as an upscale automobile for pure profits sake and won’t offer the varying features in any Compact/Midsize automobile they manufacture in the near term? As for Mean Mileage to Failure, there are thousands to tens of thousands of much older Camry’s and Corolla’s with > 200,000 miles on them. On the cost saving side of the equation, the Camry/Corolla combination mainly includes mechanical drive train components whereas a Hybrid of any manufacture has both the mechanical and electrical drive train to maintain. The battery pack replacement is the weak link and one Toyota is apparently burying given I still haven’t seen the cost of a battery pack replacement? As a data point, www.Insightcentral.net has a forum with Honda Insight end user experiences. Of all the Honda Insight’s I have read about over the last 5 days, 2 have needed a battery pack replacements. 1 of these appears to have had a pack replacement under warranty when it possibly wasn’t needed – mis-diagnosed whereas the other was a true failure at 84,000 (just after the 80,000 mile warranty mark unfortunately for that owner
___John you mentioned in an earlier post about friends, family, and co-workers paying a particular price (~ $5,000) for lower emissions capability. I asked this same question amongst my co-workers last night and here are the responses I received. I first mentioned the Corolla, Camry, and Prius as far as costs (15K, 18K, 20.5K relatively well equipped), sizes (Compact, Midsize, and Compact/Midsize because of the hatchback), and drive trains (IC, IC, and a Hybrid consisting of a lower powered IC and a low powered Electrics given only slightly less performance than the std. IC in the Corolla). Here is what I found.
- A mid 40 year old female said she would pay upwards of 5% or $1,000 on a $20,000 automobile for a cleaner and greener vehicle. At anything above that, she said she would rather place the money towards more efficient household amenities and appliances like more efficient and clean A/C and Furnace.
- A 27 yr. old male said he wouldn’t pay a dime. His reasoning is that there are so many large Semi’s on the road that his contribution wouldn’t make any difference no matter the vehicle he drives.
- 2 other males, mid to late 40’s <-- (I am guessing on their respective ages because I didn’t ask?), said they would pay nothing.
- The most intelligent response came from a mid-level manager (male) in his late 40’s. He paused. He then said, (I am paraphrasing since I did not take this down word for word) “I am ashamed not to have picked the cleaner vehicle because in my mind, it is the right thing to do. On the other hand, I as well as most other American’s don’t use our heads, we use their pocket books so No, I wouldn’t pay anything for the cleaner, greener vehicle”.
___The demographics of the above individuals include wages in the low 60’s to maybe 120K for the mid-level manager and all are extremely intelligent given the past and present training they have all received and the fact that they run two of the best performing Nuclear plants in the world for a living.
___As for myself, I would pay $2,000 - $3,000 more for the mileage first and foremost with the green capabilities as a great bonus.
___A few other points.
- You mentioned above that I shouldn’t base the TCO on the 01-03 Prius because it is no longer in production. What did you want me to base TCO on? A $20,500 initial cost Hybrid or something else?
- You also mentioned the TCO for an IC based automobile has a looming emission test failure in its future. From what I gather, the Prius’ TCO would be much more suspect given it has two sets of power trains, brakes, and controls to maintain, not just one. What happens when the regenerative braking control fails? Can you go to Midas and have that fixed? What about the regenerative motor itself? What about the Electric power controls portion of the IC engine. Can you take it to the local shop with a $40.00 to $50.00 charge out rate or the Toyota dealer with a $75.00 or more charge out rate? These are actual shop costs in my locale. My local Acura dealer charges $90.00 per hour so you can well imagine they will never see any of my business other than for warranty repair if I could possibly help it.
___Finally, you mentioned that if the Prius’ Hybrid drive train were an option available on the Corolla, no one would buy the Hybrid but would purchase the std. Corolla w/ IC instead? Why would that be? The extra $2,500 - $3,500 in price? The slightly lower performance? A looming battery pack replacement? This is where the 30% to 40% increase in mileage comes into the mix to make the TCO work. The cleaner, greener ratings are just an added bonus that not many are willing to pay given my brief question and answer period yesterday afternoon.
___An OT data point that you may be interested in ... This morning I received a record high 44.542 mpg in the Corolla LE w/ Automatic over a 580.9 mile hwy commute cycle. I increased tire pressure from 32 to 37 for the last 180 mile loop (something I learned from fellow Hybrid owners ... Thank you) and only needed A/C for 3 of the 6 trips to work and back. I can see a 45 to 46 mpg high coming in the next 3 or 4 days hopefully
___For all. Please check and consider raising your tire pressures (within a safe range of course) as soon as possible. Not only will you save fuel, you will help save the environment even if just a small amount with the slightly overall lower emissions that the better mileage will provide over a given distance.
___Good Luck to you all
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
Thanks for the info about the battery, as well as the info about the mileage of Corollas/Camrys. That helps me get a better idea of costs.
I guess the Prius might have a market right now for people who do a lot of stop-and-go driving in conjested metropolitain areas. In that situation, the stepless acceleration, electric-only driving, larger passenger/cargo volume, and environmental performance might be enough "icing on the cake" to make it worth spending a the extra money vs. the Corolla.
> were an option available on the Corolla, no one would
> buy the Hybrid but would purchase the std. Corolla
> w/IC instead?
That is the exact opposite of what I said.
When a hybrid version of Corolla becomes available (a configuration with all the technology concealed and no frills whatsoever), it should be less than $2000 more than the traditional version. That will be so appealing that many people will simply buy it instead, which won't help boost sales volume if they were planning on buying a Corolla anyway.
JOHN
___As you have mentioned time and again, patience ... Patience what? Toyota ALREADY has the drive train and they ALREADY went through the redesign. How much longer should they wait? Toyota instead decided to create a $20,500 platform from scratch instead of a $17,000 - $18,000 one that would have received the same mileage or better, have the same emissions, be far less costly to produce, ability for more of the American buying public to afford, and they could manufacture it by the millions without so much as having a high level manager giving the signal to “GO”? At $20,500, the 04 Prius Hybrid isn’t close enough to working out economically for many but at $17K to $18K, it is close enough that many including myself would have said yes.
> John said: “(a configuration with all the technology concealed and no frills whatsoever)”
___When you say a no frills, are you speaking of the ability to add a sun roof and leather (not available on the Prius with any option package?) on the $4,000 - $5,500 less expensive Corolla LE with all of the std. features of a std. Prius except for the ability to adjust climate and radio from the steering wheel, insert the Key fob into a hole and then push the button vs. inserting key and turning, and a touch screen LCD? The only upgrade I see on the base Prius is TRAC although EBD is a similar feature found on any Corolla equipped w/ Anti-lock brakes for an additional $260.00. I had better not forget to add the Aluminum wheels as a $320 option either ... Did someone mention a $150 to $600 rebate on the 03/04 Corolla? You can see all of the std. options included with both automobiles by looking at the list of std. features of the Toyota Prius and Corolla websites as shown here: http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/specs/specs.html and here: http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2004/corolla/models.html. For anything else, you start paying big time.
___There are probably a few more that I haven’t discovered but if you want to list every single std. feature of the Prius and compare to every single std. feature of the Corolla LE, feel free. I would say they are very comparable. All except for the $4,000 to $5,500 price difference when looking at std, features alone.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
> ability to add a sun roof and leather
Features that are available to Corolla now will remain available. It's only the hybrid propulsion system that will be added, to keep the added cost to a minimum. If you want the extras that only Prius offers, you'll have to buy a Prius.
Also, Toyota wishes to increase their product-line. So arguments about only using existing vehicles don't make sense.
JOHN
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=6430
The 2004 is doing really well in Japan (where it's been on sale since Sept. 1)
Today, Ford announced yet another delay with the introduction of the Escape-Hybrid. They showed off their prototype at last year's 2003 Auto Show kickoff. It was already late then. Now it looks like it will take an additional 2 years more from that point to consumer delivery.
So it basically it will end up taking 4 years to re-engineer their vehicle to use pre-existing hybrid technology (Ford signed a deal with Toyota to use what was already in the classic Prius).
Toyota is waiting for the rest of the industry to catch up. In the meantime, they are improving the technology, refining the manufacturing process, and educating their salespeople & mechanics, while also building a reputation for the HSD system.
JOHN
Thanks,
Car Guy
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When that happens, Bastien acknowledged, the Prius no longer will stand out as Toyota's hybrid halo. At that point, he said, the Prius could become a Toyota showcase for newer cutting-edge technology.
"It's something we've talked about, wondered about," he said. "But we can see it taking on a role as sort of a technology standard bearer."
> cutting-edge technology.
Well realistically, that is what is already beginning to happen.
And this is nothing new. Intel has taken full advantage of name marketability by milking the term "Pentium" for all it's worth.
JOHN
According to the Prius brochure, VSC is included in Package #7 and Package #9. #9 does have nav, but #7 is just rear-wiper, extra airbags, Smart entry, HIDs, fog lamps, and VSC. Sounds like the one you want. It is also called the "AM" package and runs around $2300 if I recall correctly.
If the dealer is telling you otherwise, I'd guess they're trying to push you towards a higher-priced car than you want.
- Mark
Deliveries won't begin until October 15, at the earliest.
I'm expecting to among the first to get one. My order was placed on July 2, the day after the special early opportunity began. Wish me luck... then stay tuned for real-world driving reports.
JOHN
john1701a - Congratulations! I knew you owned a 2001 Prius, but I didn't realize you were also purchasing the 2004. We look forward to hearing about your delivery experience.
To Everyone - So just curious, does anyone else here have a Prius on order? Thanks for sharing any details.... ;-)
Also, if you come across anyone that's interested in discussing the 2004 Prius, please send them to this discussion. Here's a direct link that you can copy/paste: /direct/view/.ef169e3
Happy motoring!
Revka
Host of Hatchbacks & Wagons
Around October 15, this will be order of websites that I will be hitting
http://www.john1701a.com/
http://www.evworld.com
http://www.evrental.com
and then to others.
Hope you allocate sometime to update your website.
Almost all my info comes from forums like this. The catch is, I get also private emails that help confirm whether what we here is true & accurate or just a rumor. You'd be amazed at the friendships you can build online, without ever actually meeting the person. So we try out best to help each other out.
There actually isn't anything more formal than that. Taking advantage of the internet by sharing info about something that will ultimately revolutionize the automotive industry (for that matter, the way people perceive technological advances) is a rather new concept.
JOHN
My mother owns a Brilliant Blue Pearl 2002 Prius.
My husband has on (Pioneer) order a Black 2004 Prius.
Just need to talk someone else in my family into picking up a 2003 Prius, and we'll have the whole set! ;-)
Thanks to John1701a I have been able to find out more about the 04 then even Toyota knows. My wife and I are retired and live in Andover, MN. In the next two months this web site should be the hottest site around when the Prius owners start getting their cars.
dupie61
51 MPG highway
60 MPG city
For details on how they determined those numbers, refer to http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml
JOHN