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Poor Detroit carmakers...they say a mid-size, safe and well appointed four door with practical performance and 60 mpg can not be built and sold for $20,000. Yeah, right!
http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-prius- 15oct15,0,7228836.story?coll=la-class-autos-highway1
the seat moves forward and back from the steering
wheel.
the seat back folds back and straight up.
the headrest moves up and down.
as I'm 5'2", I didn't notice any problems with
view. but, I don't know how your wife is built
compared to me (longer/shorter legs vs. torso vs. neck...),
then I don't know how things will work for your
wife. a few over 6' tall people also got to sit in
the car, and they didn't report any problems...
demo/TRAC 2004s have already arrived at dealerships.
some people have taken delivery already. call
around, you might be able to get a test drive!
dealerships, and being able to walk out with a
2004, and they're not Pioneer orders.
some 2004s have been reported on dealer lots with
huge over MSRP markups on them already.
meanwhile, most of us Pioneer order people still
don't have our car, and some of us don't even
know when it'll come in...
weren't the Pioneer orders supposed to be filled
first? why can people walk into a dealership,
never having placed an order, and get a car?
Some comments on your points:
* A couple of hundred pounds of extra weight in the Camry will only make a difference if it was used effectively to increase crash-worthiness. You don't know if this is the case. Consider: Camry got worse NHTSA crash test scores than some vehicles that weigh several hundred pounds less (although you are not supposed to compare frontal collision scores of vehicles that have a weight difference of more than a couple of hundred pounds). But it is telling IMO that Camry got worse side impact crash test scores than many smaller, lighter cars. So some extra weight doesn't automatically translate into superior crash-worthiness.
* I think you have a good point on the frontal profile of the Prius and what would happen if it hits a tall vehicle like an SUV. I can envision the sharp, short prow of the Prius sliding under the SUV, moreso than the taller front end of the Camry. There is a move afoot in Europe to force automakers to raise the hoodlines of cars--but I think it had more to do with helping pedestrians survive collisions with cars than the danger you cited. This risk would not stop me from buying a Prius, however. Assuming the Prius' crash test scores are good, I am willing to depend on that plus the braking power of the Prius (which I understand is quite good) and good defensive driving skills to keep me alive. There will always be vehicles out there taller than the front end of a Prius, or a Camry. If this issue bothers you that much, you might sleep better with the Camry--or maybe with a Hummer.
dealerships, and being able to walk out with a
2004, and they're not Pioneer orders.
some 2004s have been reported on dealer lots with
huge over MSRP markups on them already."
"why can people walk into a dealership, never having placed an order, and get a car?"
I think you just answered your own question. Dealers, in general, profess it till they are blue in the face that they do not profit much from the sales of a car, therefore, they are doing what any good business would do. Capitalize on the supply when there is an outrageously huge demand.
J
Word was that the Pioneer orders were supposed to be filled before regular allocation cars.
Now, some dealerships that don't have any Pioneer orders, nor a TRAC program, are getting 2004s, and selling it to people off the street. Those are cars that could have (and should have) gone to waiting Pioneer orders (or non-Pioneers that also have been waiting as long...).
Seems like the Toyota allocation system is screwed up, sending cars to the wrong dealers, and is really peeving off the Pioneer orders.
(Pioneer ordered in July, car won't be in until Nov., yet someone who just walked into a dealership to look around can pick up a car that I have on order? doesn't make sense.)
the only good thing about the preorder process is that the car is MSRP or less.
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Jeannine Fallon
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Edmunds.com
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This is an impressive car for its intended mission: safely and comfortably carrying a reasonable load of passengers and gear while using very little fuel. It is smooth, quiet, adequately quick, and the hybrid system is unobtrusive.
It makes virtually no compromises for the hybrid system. Other than the weird startup/shutdown drill, it drives just like other cars with only subtle clues that you're driving something different. I was really impressed how transparent the hybrid operation was.
The design is very efficient. There is a ton of room inside and the car looks like I'd expect the next generation of cars to look. Toyota did a great job on the styling. The fit/finish is typical Toyota, although I don't think anyone would confuse it with a Lexus.
The salesman and I had trouble "starting" the car - we had to pull out an info card to figure out that you MUST depress the brake WHILE pushing the Start button to get it "booted". (I was surprised that there was no dash indicator or warning system to let the driver know what they're doing wrong.)
Once this was out of the way, I was immediately struck by how smooth the car was and the solid feel of the steering. This does not feel like a flimsy car at all - in fact, it felt more rigid and solid than many conventional small cars like the new Corolla. I never drove the car aggressively as it was raining cats and dogs, so I can't comment much on the handling other than the steering felt very good.
The drivetrain is so quiet, you really don't notice when the gas engine comes on line, although there are occasional hesitations and light jerks as you transition between modes. Between the transmission shifts and the hybrid system working, you're never really very sure what is going on and I think Toyota wants you to think of it that way - you don't need to know - just press here to go faster and here to go slower and let us worry about it.
Acceleration is adequate but no more and I suspect grades and a load could get things to a point where you would want more power. The salesman said the performance was comparable to a 4-cyl Camry, but I think this is stretching it a bit. When you floor it, it feels about like a ten-year-old 100-hp Civic would feel - not bad, but not super quick either. This would not be my choice of vehicle for passing on two-lane roads, but for moderate speeds trundling along in traffic or merging onto a freeway, it's fine.
The interior was pleasant and very comfortable, but the materials and styling did little for me. The fabric on the seats is a mouse-fur velour-like material that looks like it would show dirt like crazy, especially in the ivory color. The center console with the cup holders seemed cheap and flimsy and there is tacky black plastic trim piece around the sound system that looks like it came off a $69 VCR. No one is going to confuse this interior with an Audi.
I am a traditionalist when it comes to instrument panels and I just don't grok what is going on with the center-oriented panels on many small cars these days. The Prius supplements the main display in the center with a small digital panel set way up at the base of the windshield with speed, fuel, gear shift indicators, etc., but I would still have much preferred a conventional set of instruments and controls directly in front of the driver. This is something that was never broken so I don't understand why the car companies keep trying to fix it.
This is a very cool car, but it is very antiseptic and appliance-like. I suppose one might get some fun out of flinging it around, but I don't think the car would ever encourage me to do so.
I would caution anyone in the market to be sure to take a lengthy test drive, even if you have to work to find a dealer willing to let you do so. The car is very different. I liked it, but realized I'm looking for something simpler, more traditional, and sportier. So, at the other end of the scale, it's off to the Mini dealer tomorrow to try a Cooper. I'll probably end up somewhere in-between these extremes.
- Mark
> 100-hp Civic would feel - not bad, but not super quick
> either
But in reality, it is surprisingly quick.
You can't go by FEEL.
When you punch the pedal all the way to the floor, the entire acceleration is initially provided exclusively by electricity... which is completely SILENT & VIBRATIONLESS. You don't actually feel anything until the engine kicks in later.
Try it again basing your assessment on what the speedometer displays. You'll be surprised.
JOHN
> understand why the car companies keep trying to fix it.
Taking your eyes off the road and being forced to refocus has always been a problem. True, it wasn't "broken", but it wasn't a good design either. The relocation above the steering-wheel, which blocked the view for people of particular height, and pushing it further way is a real improvement.
And of course, the switch to digital helps to significantly reduce moving parts... which do break. Just ask people you know if they've ever had an analog (needle) speedometer bounce at certain speeds or be non-responsive until warmed up.
JOHN
> lengthy test drive, even if you have to work to find a dealer
> willing to let you do so
I totally agree. There's simply way too much to absorb if you only get a quick drive around the block. Seek out hills & highways, the acceleration is much more than people commonly believe. Then of course, find some 30-40 MPH roads to try play on; Stealth (electric-only) driving is a blast.
Most dealers are getting TRAC 2004 Prius. So you can rent one for a day.
JOHN
- Mark
Any Clarification?
electric motor only, or a combination of the two,
whatever the car feels is more appropriate for the
power demand that you're asking for.
Outside of the North American market, there is a
little "EV only" button on the 2004 Prius. You
press this to force the Prius to run on the electric
motor only (for short distances) and not turn on
the gasoline engine. You'd probably use this if
you're just doing a VERY short trip (like taking
the car out of the garage, or changing parking
spaces).
So yes, the 2004 US Prius has stealth (just like
the 2001-2003 Prius), but the 2004 US Prius does
not have the EV-only button (for manual override
to use electric-only driving).
First, I'll say I was very impressed overall by the car. It exuded quality, and although no one will confuse it with an Audi, it looked well worth its $20-25,000 target price (a little less than Audis go for these days). Even the hard plastic parts, such as the inside door panels, were of good quality. It also felt very solid, with no squeaks or rattles. I thought the interior fabric was comfortable and looked durable--if it's mouse fur, at least it's top-notch mouse fur.
The salesman had just been to training and was therefore pretty knowledgeable about the car. He knew, for example, that I had to step on the brake before starting the car. About the only thing he didn't know was how to bring up the engine display. After he fiddled with the display for quite awhile, I found it accidently by pushing the Info button on the steering wheel.
The ride was comfortable and quiet, but not floaty. The only bumps were over some tall tar strips, and even those bumps were well-controlled. The only significant noise when cruising was some A-pillar wind noise, which was surprising to me given the .26 CD, the fact it was not a windy day, and it showed up at as slow as 50 mph.
It took a little while to get used to the CVT, with no perception of gear changes, but after awhile I forgot about it. I did feel the engine kick in, kind of like the feeling when the a/c compressor kicks in on a small-engined car, but it was not really noticeable when underway. I too thought acceleration was only adequate, but should be more than acceptable for the target market (p.s. I pesonally would never compare the Prius with a Mini Cooper S, as I see them as totally different kinds of cars, but to each his own.)
Inside, I was glad to see the display with speedometer, gas, drive mode etc. right in front of me--I thought all the displays would be in the center. I thought the driving position was just about perfect (5'9", 32" inseam) except I wanted to raise the front of the seat cushion a bit--but could not as there is no height adjuster. That's quite an omission in a $26,000 car. Even Hyundai Accents have dual-knob seat height adjusters. Otherwise the driver's seat was comfortable enough, but I think I'd want a little more lumbar support for long trips. Both arm rests were cloth-covered and comfortable. I thought the center console was actually pretty nice, with the fold-out cupholders and HUGE amount of storage space. I like the slide-out CD tray below the cup holders. The power point was a little hard to reach, on the lower right of the center stack, and there was no power point in the rear for GameBoys etc. (c'mon, Toyota, this is a gas/electric car--share the power!). I thought it was interesting that with all the high-tech controls on the Prius, Toyota still uses the quaint stalk for the cruise control. Maybe there was no room left on the steering wheel! I played the (upgrade) JBL stereo for a few seconds; it sounded fine--not a big deal for me. The two glove boxes ala Sienna was a nice touch.
The rear seating position (on the side) was just about perfect for me, very comfortable and tall, with tons of legroom. However, there's only about 1" of head clearance--anyone over 5'10" may have problems back there. I'll have to have my oldest son check it out before I place my order. There was a center armrest and two cupholders, plus a separate overhead light for the rear--not as nice as individual reading lights, but better than nothing. The rear is very easy to get into and out of, with large doors. The assist grips are damped--a nice touch.
There's lot of room in the trunk, and I found out you can remove the cover over the tools and gain a few inches of height. The pull-out cargo cover seemed a little flimsy to me, like a K-mart roller shade, and I had trouble stowing it neatly.
Outside, the standard wheels look very sharp. I noticed no exterior flaws, and the paint was smooth. I think the car looks much better in person than in pictures--futuristic without going over the top. The tan color was fine, and I like that color, but I already have one tan car so I'll probably go with something else, red or silver perhaps, on the Prius. I noticed the folding mirrors--thank you, Toyota!
The salesman was very accomodating and showed me all around the car after the drive, pointing out the jumping point in the fuse box ("for those cold Minnesota days when you haven't run the car for awhile.") The engine compartment looked tidy, but I sure would not want to work on that engine. "Professional mechanics only" I think.
So the Prius is definitely tops on my list. I'll need to have the whole family go for a drive to see how we all fit, and see how the DW likes it (she would be the main driver), but she think's its cute, and the more a car is an appliance for her, the better. I think she'll like it. And I don't mind that there isn't much power there, since my 15-year-old son will be driving soon.
I pretty much agree with everything, although I still despise the split instrument/dashboard layout. Just personal preference I guess, along with years of flying airplanes on instruments where you avoid, at all costs, looking across the panel to the center of the stack - it is just a bad place to put information. But the sub-panel showing speed works fine and I have to admit that it is easier on my eyes which are starting to have more and more trouble focusing on near objects.
And I agree 100% with your comment about a Mini Cooper and a Prius not being comparable - I'm cross shopping only because they're in the same price ball park and I'm looking for a relatively economical and small 4-seat car with some pizazz beyond the typical Corollas, Sentras, Focuses, etc. In the case of the Prius, it's the mileage and high-tech features (along with a good feeling about doing my part in the planetary climate experiment we're all participating in), and in the case of the Mini, it's the sportiness, handling, and retro look. BTW, I just drove the Cooper S, and wow, that thing is a hoot. If you have a dealer in your area, schedule a test drive, just to see the other side of a $23K small car coin. If the Prius is built on Venus, the Cooper is built on Mars.
To be shopping these two cars is totally irrationale, and Peter Egan explains it well in his Nov 2003 column in Road and Track where he is shopping for a sensible commuter car and ends up almost buying (for the same money) a 1987 C4 Corvette convertible. I think car buying should, to some extent, involve some emotion and passion, and I think one can be passionate about both a Prius and a Mini, while I just can't work up any passion for a Corolla or Focus.
- Mark
I agree the Prius does not inspire passion like the Mini, but there is something about it that is exciting nonetheless--maybe it's the unique, slipstream styling, or maybe it's knowing I'm saving tons of money on gas and am doing one little thing to help the ecology by driving a Prius instead of buying another 15-mpg-in-the-city minivan.
Oh, and about the Prius' displays--I really don't like the touch-screen display. I'd much rather have simple, conventional controls, like on my Elantra--boring but foolproof. It took the salesman and me five minutes to figure out if the a/c was on or off (it was a cool day, and all I wanted was fresh air). I told him, this is defintely a case where new owners will want to read the owner's manual cover-to-cover as soon as they get home from the dealership (although I do that with all my new cars anyway...). Now if they'd add effective voice-activated controls, that would be cool, and useful.
I do agree that the cruise control is some what not to my liking in the position that it is in.
Fit and finish are typical Toyota, good with out going over board to make a Lexus out of it.
If you flow in the main streem of traffic this is an excelent car, not a speedster but comfortable and at a price that fits many budgets across this country. My 04 Toyota Prius and I will have a long term relationship for some years to come.
Thanks to John 1701a and others in the Prius grups I found a car that works for me.
dupie61
By the way I have a $ 50,000 dollar Corvette if I want to go fast.
Other observations (if you care)...
It was pretty tight on headroom up front for me. I'm 6'3" and I probably only had a quarter of an inch or so between the top of my head and the "roof". On the other hand, my vertically challenged wife (~ 5'2") felt like she was part of the dashboard when she pulled the seat forward to a comfortable position. Something we always struggle with when trying to find a car that fits us both.
I test drove a Package7 (AM) today in Kansas City and the upper-right steering wheel where the NAV controls are on a fully-loaded BC was brushed "stainless" like the trim around the left-side controls.
Can anyone tell me what the "B" does on the gear-shift. The Prius cheat sheet for starting and parking only said it's an engine brake but no salespeople or other consumers could figure out actual functionality - even when we pulled down to "B" in park and while driving.
Awesome vehicle.
-Seth
You can always order a Prius with fewer options. Package 3, with the rear wiper (yes, it should be standard on a car with a rear window like that) and side/curtain airbags is my favorite. Nav systems are fun, but MapQuest is free.
Has anyone here actually disabled the reverse beep? I haven't found the procedure online, and I haven't found '04 Prius repair manuals at auto stores. Where can I get a repair manual? I understand that other Toyotas beep in reverse as well. Is the procedure the same for those cars? If so, it might be possible to pick up a manual for something more common, like the Celica, and go from there. What do you think?
i don't think the salesman is right about the "b" being the brake assist down a steep hill. his explanation sounds like what is on a land rover discovery where the car actually brakes for you while you're going down a steep hill. the "b" on the prius is for battery charging mode when you going down an incline. it is very similar to the one on the classic prius.
It works much like a Jake-Brake on a big rig. The engine is forced to spin even though fuel isn't being fed to it anymore. That causes drag, which results in deceleration assistance.
It does not change the gearing. In fact, there aren't any gears in a Planetary-CVT, so it doesn't work like 1 or 2 in an automatic.
It does not increase battery recharging either. In fact, it slightly reduces it.
JOHN
Yes, the instructions have been tested and proven correct.
JOHN
Re beeping, there was no beeping when I put the Prius I drove into reverse, so there must be some way to deactivate the beep.
I thought it was odd 3 years ago when people had a hard time choosing between an Insight and a 2001 Prius. The only thing they had in common was that they were both called "hybrid", even though the technology between the two was totally different.
The only thing I can think of that they even remotely have in common with a Mini is that they are both currently rare vehicles. But based on the 2004 Prius sales & orders so far, that won't last long.
JOHN
I supposed one could call my comparison of the Prius to the likes of the MPV, Sienna, Quest, and Passat wagon to be absurd too--but that's just what I'm doing.
eandlcubed, to cut to the chase, I drove both back-to-back and have a Mini Cooper S on order arriving late this year. I'll try and be objective, but take everything with a grain.
They are polar opposites in virtually every way. I think you need to go as far as it takes to find a Prius to test drive before you decide.
The Mini handles like a sports car (the slalom figures for the car consistently beat Ferraris and Porsches), it incredibly fun to drive, is funkily styled (some thing overstyled) which will attract a lot of attention when you're driving (which can be good or bad depending on whether you like the attention), is overstated and playful, and makes you giggle when you're driving it.
The Prius is smooth and comfortable, mentally entertaining in the sophistication of its powertrain, gets incredible gas mileage, and is understated and somber. The magazines use the term "antiseptic" and I think it is the best one to describe the Prius.
I think a good way of looking at this is that if you would order your Cooper with a CVT, then get the Prius. If you would order your Cooper with the five-speed, then get the Cooper. The transmission choices is sorta the litmus test of whether you want a sporty car or an economy car and I think a CVT would greatly diminish the fun value of the Cooper.
Final thought: The Cooper has had a LOT of reliability problems. It's a German-designed car made in England in a new factory with a new engine made in Brazil. So far, this has been a prescription for a lot of quirky reliabliity issues. Some are sorta bizzare, like coolant changing to a mud color and super-frequent windshield replacements - the windshield on the Cooper are very far forward and relatively vertical so risk of stone injuries is MUCH higher than it would be in a car like a Prius with its much more raked windshield. Some folks have replaced six or more on the Cooper.
Quality of the new Coopers appears to have improved considerably, but no one really knows whether the 2004s made now have turned the corner or not. The Toyota OTOH, is likely to be a very reliable vehicle, although I think there is some enhanced risk of the hybrid technology still being a little new and causing more problems than normal down the road. But if you are the type that really get bent out of shape dealing with car repairs (even under warranty), I wouldn't take a risk on the Cooper until another year or two have passed. And I'd want a dealer fairly close. I'm mechanically handy, flexible about things, and willing to put up with some aggravation, so I'm accepting the risk. But I never kid myself that it's not a risk. It is about the same situation I was in four years ago when I bought a Mercedes ML320 SUV. And I love the truck, but it has had more than its fair share of problems. I'm just willing to put up with more problems to get German vehicles. I like their feel and style.
- Mark
Are you talking about the classic Prius?
2004 Prius has bigger & wider tires along with a longer wheelbase, plus it's more aerodynamic. That makes for a big improvement in highway cruising.
JOHN
Go up to www.miniusa.com and play around with the website. Build a few cars and explore the options. Try some of the fun stuff.
(There's a lot more stuff in the Owner's Lounge, but you need a VIN or production number. I was pleasantly surprised to see that on the day I ordered a car, I was immediately able to see my car in the production process and can not track it to arrival, similar to the way Dell does order tracking. I think BMW wants to make Mini their trial balloon into the area of custom ordering of cars where you can build cars down to the last details, order them at a fixed price, and then go down and pick them up at a delivery center, never dealing with a salesman. I also applaud Mini for setting up, on their web site, the ability for owners to talk to one another on problems, including bitching/whining if they so choose. It would seem to me that such forums would provide mfgs with valuable information on product improvement if they would endorse it rather than fighting it. With all the problem with the Coopers, a lot of customers say that Mini has been VERY aggressive in fixing things quickly once they come up. This is encouraging.)
Now go and explore the Prius at Toyota's web site.
Which web site appeals to you? The two web sites, to me, feel just like the two cars feel.
- Mark
- Mark
That's extraordinarily vague.
From that I can't even tell if you are making a reference to handling or the comfort of the seats.
Detail please!
JOHN
- Mark
The best way to avoid that is to simply ask explicity for detail.
I'm all for constructive sharing of information. So feel free to share that.
JOHN