My wife and I took a test drive in a 2004 Prius yesterday. We currently own a 2002 Prius, and are considering trading up to the 2004 Prius.
Things we liked:
Thank God they fixed the brakes! The 2002 brakes are grabby, almost dangerous if you're not used to them. The 2004 brakes are perfect-- a vast improvement.
They fixed the instrument panel! On the 2002 the digital read-out panel (speedometer) is dead center, on the 2004 it's directly in front of the driver (although it feels farther away from you than on the 2002)
The 2002 feels a little like driving an enclosed golf cart. The 2004 feels like your average car. Thank you Toyota for making it bigger!
The 2004 has more room in the front wheel wells to accommodate chains, and they are normal tires! We've had constant problems with the 2002 small hard tires.
The starter battery is much easier to access on the 2004, than on the 2002-- although we never had to jump start our 2002, even after leaving it at the airport's long term parking for three weeks.
The storage room of the 2004 hatchback is great compared to the 2002. But of course, the 2004 is a larger car and a hatchback.
The back seat passenger room is great, and headroom is fine unless you are a "big hair" type.
What we didn't like:
The controls are more cluttered, counter intuitive and distracting on the 2004 than on the 2002. There are a lot of changes from the 2002 to the 2004, but the end result is still confusing and distracting-- even for former Prius owners like ourselves. The 2002 has manual and touch screen controls. The latter are passable, but the manual controls are not laid out ergonomically and are counterintuitive. The 2004 now adds steering wheel controls (too many, in my opinion-- SAAB and BMW have got the balance right here) and even more manual controls on the dash and around the touchscreen itself. Rather than improving the 2002 controls mess, the 2004 additions and options actually worsen the situation.
Rear view visibility is worse on the 2004 than on the 2002. If you've ever driven a newer style SAAB hatchback, you know what I mean. Parallel parking is more difficult in the 2004 as a result.
The increase in power from the 2004 hybrid engine is not as great as we would have liked. It's true that the engine is more powerful, but the 2004 is also heavier, off-setting much of the power gains. The 2002 actually feels "zippier" than the 2004 because it's lighter. Also, the great storage room of the 2004 hatchback just begs to be loaded up with cargo, and any power gains may be lost entirely. More power please!
The 2002 has better handling than the 2004 because it's lighter and shorter. I would not get a 2004 without the "Vehicle Stability Control (VCS)" option of package #7 (AM). For 2005, Toyota should increase power and add better control and stabilization for a sportier ride.
We would like more seat adjustment controls-- vertical controls, lumbar, and a greater number of incremental horizontal positions.
Toyota needs to get out of the "civil servant" or "commuter pastel" rut and offer better solid color options. The red is great, but what happened to the great navy blue available on the 2002s?
In the dumb and gimmicky department:
Some of the steering wheel and dash controls (see above). No need to reinvent the wheel here. Controls should be simple, ergonomic, intuitive, and enable you to use them by feel and not sight.
The key "thing." Try getting the key fob out of the dash with gloves on. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Two glove compartments? One is fine.
The tiny front quarter panel windows are useless. For style not function.
Bottom line:
We're still undecided as to whether we'll trade up this year.
Question:
What happens if you accidentally push the "Park" button while you are driving at full speed? I was tempted to push it during our test drive, but chickened out. Anybody know the answer?
Talk about two different experiences! I decided to drop by a local dealership (Bay Area, CA) on the way home that happens to actually have their sales folks on salaries, not commissions. They had a few 2004 Prius in stock to drive (and quite a few on the lot with the 'sold' stickers in the windows). I felt no pressure when I asked to test drive the car, and no pressure during or after the ride. The sales guy did say that even if I put down a $500 deposit today there would be a 2 month wiat for the car. The $500 is 100% no-questions-asked refundable so I figured why not? I am lucky enough to have a sporty car for weekends, and the power in the Prius seems more than adequate for my commute during the week. My very short lived experience with another dealership right down the road. I have a friend who I got interested in the Prius, so I decided to call to see if they had any to test drive. I was asked immediately for my name, then was told to hold. The the sales person got back on the phone and asked for my name again AND my number so she could call me back in 10 minutes (I have caller ID blocked- I wonder if that had something to do with it). I said it was a pretty simple question- "do you or don't you have a Prius to test drive?" She said she wanted to call me back because the one they had was out being test driven at that moment. I told her that was OK, since I now knew they had one there i would just come on down and wait my turn to drive it (well, for my friend to drive it). After I said this, she then asked me to hold again! I did- I 'held' the cradle button down to hang up the phone to call my friend to let him know we were going to the no-commissioned Toyota dealership! I think one reason I hold on to the cars I drive so long is the excruciating feeling I get when I have to face car salesman! There is such a difference when someone knows they'll get a bonus on customer satisfaction as opposed to sales! Question- has anyone else had worries about the 'tan' intereior color getting dirty too easily? The car I test drove had the Tan, and there were already some spots on the arm rest. I think I like the Red ext color the best (really a maroon), but it only comes with the tan interior. The only 2004 Prius that come with the opt of the grey interior is white and black. I thought the black Prius would look super cool, but is it ever hard to keep black cars looking clean! They did have a white Prius on the lot and it did look pretty good, tho I could do without the black door pillars. Man, if Toyota had only made it in their pearl white (like on their Solaris) it would be a no brainer. Has anyone seen a white Prius on the road? Did it look any good? Finally- is it just me, or is the Prius colr 'tideland' the greyest looking 'green' in the world?
Lots of positive comments, that's always nice to read; however...
> Rather than improving the 2002 controls mess, > the 2004 additions and options actually worsen > the situation.
Are you considering it a mess now that users have a choice of 3 different ways (feel, sight, voice) to adjust items?
> off-setting much of the power gains
125 pounds is a lot? And an increase in 2.4 seconds isn't?
> Parallel parking is more difficult
Really? Now you can actually see the very back corner of the vehicle, and the back window is a little lower.
> The 2002 has better handling than the 2004
Perhaps with city driving in snow, but surely not on the highway. The larger wheels and longer wheelbase offer a nice improvement at high speeds.
> what happened to the great navy blue available on the 2002s?
Marketing. Color options are cycled over the years.
> Controls should be simple, ergonomic, intuitive, > and enable you to use them by feel and not sight.
The steering-wheel controls *ARE* all carefully marked with unique identifiers to make them usable by feel. Some bulge out, some bulge in, some have a pinpoint, and some have a line.
> Two glove compartments? One is fine
The one is so large, small items disappear into its depth.
> What happens if you accidentally push the "Park" button > while you are driving at full speed?
Nothing. The benefit of drive-by-wire is the fact that the computer can intercept illogical requests.
there was a lively discussion on the center mount digital speedo anda few posts back. a few posts were passionately against it.. i took another test drive on the mini (my area doesn't have the new prius yet) and compared it against my '02 prius. as you know, the mini has a very large center mount speedo but it is in analog readout. let me say i don't like that setup at all because for one, it is too close to the driver's eyes so i have to slightly look down to see the number and two, the speedo is old fashion analog so it takes me a little longer to see what my speed is because the spacing of the numbers are all different for every car. what i mean is that some car has a lower speed limit so the its speedo has the number spacing farther apart so you can see more number (i.e. 40 line 45 line 50 so on). on the other hand, sporty car has their spacing closer together so you see more of the lines in between numbers (i.e. 40 line line 60 line line 80 so on). on the prius, the speedo is center but it is farther away so i don't have to look down to see it and ..wow the digital speedo has no learning curve. what you see is what you get. a few posts argued against the digital numbers because it might not show all the number if you were to hit the brake hard (ie. 35, 34, 33...). i did the test on my prius and it does show all the numbers as i decelerate hard...it only skips a few digits at a very low dec speed (ie. 10, 6, 5, 3, 0). in an emergency or panic stop, you are not looking at the speedo anyway to gauge your speed so it does not matter that a few digits were skipped. anyway, my reason against the mini's speedo wan't sufficient enough for me to order one. so in 6 weeks i should get my mini. and maybe the prius will be in my part of wood for me to try one out. hopefully i have made a right decision. thanks everyone for very informative posts.
Talk about two different experiences! I decided to drop by a local dealership (Bay Area, CA) on the way home that happens to actually have their sales folks on salaries, not commissions. They had a few 2004 Prius in stock to drive (and quite a few on the lot with the 'sold' stickers in the windows). I felt no pressure when I asked to test drive the car, and no pressure during or after the ride. The sales guy did say that even if I put down a $500 deposit today there would be a 2 month wiat for the car. The $500 is 100% no-questions-asked refundable so I figured why not? I am lucky enough to have a sporty car for weekends, and the power in the Prius seems more than adequate for my commute during the week. My very short lived experience with another dealership right down the road. I have a friend who I got interested in the Prius, so I decided to call to see if they had any to test drive. I was asked immediately for my name, then was told to hold. The the sales person got back on the phone and asked for my name again AND my number so she could call me back in 10 minutes (I have caller ID blocked- I wonder if that had something to do with it). I said it was a pretty simple question- "do you or don't you have a Prius to test drive?" She said she wanted to call me back because the one they had was out being test driven at that moment. I told her that was OK, since I now knew they had one there i would just come on down and wait my turn to drive it (well, for my friend to drive it). After I said this, she then asked me to hold again! I did- I 'held' the cradle button down to hang up the phone to call my friend to let him know we were going to the no-commissioned Toyota dealership! I think one reason I hold on to the cars I drive so long is the excruciating feeling I get when I have to face car salesman! There is such a difference when someone knows they'll get a bonus on customer satisfaction as opposed to sales! Question- has anyone else had worries about the 'tan' intereior color getting dirty too easily? The car I test drove had the Tan, and there were already some spots on the arm rest. I think I like the Red ext color the best (really a maroon), but it only comes with the tan interior. The only 2004 Prius that come with the opt of the grey interior is white and black. I thought the black Prius would look super cool, but is it ever hard to keep black cars looking clean! They did have a white Prius on the lot and it did look pretty good, tho I could do without the black door pillars. Man, if Toyota had only made it in their pearl white (like on their Solaris) it would be a no brainer. Has anyone seen a white Prius on the road? Did it look any good? Finally- is it just me, or is the Prius colr 'tideland' the greyest looking 'green' in the world?
The 2004 Coopers have, in addition to the center analog speedo, a small digital speedo on the tachometer which is directly in front of the driver. The numbers are small though.
In both cars, I'd take conventional analog instruments directly in front of the driver over these split systems in a heartbeat. But we've already beat this to death.
Hi! Which car performs better the 2004 Toyota Prius or the 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid? This may have been discussed before but I'm new to this message board and I didn't want to search all the prior pages. Thanks in advance.
My response to JOHN (john1701a) “the Toyota PR guy’s” comments on my 2004 Prius Test Drive:
> >Rather than improving the 2002 controls mess, > >the 2004 additions and options actually worsen > >the situation.
>Are you considering it a mess now that users have a choice of 3 different ways >(feel, sight, voice) to adjust items?
Yes. “Voice” is for DVD mapping only. “Feel” only applies to the steering wheel controls, which are overdone—not the dashboard controls, which are the worst part of the “mess.” Lastly, all “sight” controls on a car are inherently dangerous because they take your eyes off the road.
>> off-setting much of the power gains
>125 pounds is a lot? And an increase in 2.4 seconds isn't?
Test drive both the 2002 and the 2004 back to back (which we did since we own a 2002 Prius) and you’ll see for yourself that the 2004 power gains are not that impressive.
>> Parallel parking is more difficult
>Really? Now you can actually see the very back corner of the vehicle, and the >back window is a little lower.
The 2002 rear view is better than the 2004. Try it and you’ll see.
>> The 2002 has better handling than the 2004
>Perhaps with city driving in snow, but surely not on the highway. The larger >wheels and longer wheelbase offer a nice improvement at high speeds.
I mean precisely at highway speeds. Our test drive was at 70+ weaving in and out of psycho Los Angeles freeway traffic. At high speeds the 2004 body rolls too much when you take evasive action—hence the need for the VSC option of package #7.
>> what happened to the great navy blue available on the 2002s?
>Marketing. Color options are cycled over the years.
Then Toyota Marketing screwed up.
> >Controls should be simple, ergonomic, intuitive, > >and enable you to use them by feel and not sight.
>The steering-wheel controls *ARE* all carefully marked with unique identifiers >to make them usable by feel. Some bulge out, some bulge in, some have a >pinpoint, and some have a line.
As I said, there are too many controls on the steering wheel, and there are no “feel” usability features for any of the dashboard controls, and the layout for the latter is a very counterintuitive and distracting mess.
>> Two glove compartments? One is fine
>The one is so large, small items disappear into its depth.
Nothing prevented Toyota from just making a single smaller glove compartment.
>> What happens if you accidentally push the "Park" button >>while you are driving at full speed?
>Nothing. The benefit of drive-by-wire is the fact that the computer can intercept >illogical requests.
I’d still like to hear from someone who has actually pressed the button while the car was traveling at speed.
All of the following commands work too, and they have nothing to do with mapping: 65 degrees, 66 degrees, 67 degrees, 68 degrees, 69 degrees, 70 degrees, 71 degrees, 72 degrees, 73 degrees, 74 degrees, 75 degrees, 76 degrees, 77 degrees, 78 degrees, 79 degrees, 80 degrees, 81 degrees, 82 degrees, 83 degrees, 84 degrees, 85 degrees, Radio, AM, FM, FM1, FM2, CD, CD changer, Cassette, Audio, Seek up, Seek down, Fast forward, Rewind, Play, Reverse, Next track, Previous track, Skip backward, Track up, Track down, Previous track, Disc up, Disc down, Automatic air conditioning, Raise temperature, Lower temperature, Next CD, Next track
> “sight” controls on a car are inherently dangerous
Yes, I agree. But the fact that you rarely need to use them helps a lot. That climate control is *AUTOMATIC* even in the base model means, you just set the temperature and leave it.
> Test drive both the 2002 and the 2004 back to back
I drove my 2001 for 59,827 miles over the last 3 years. The pep increase in the 2004 is quite obvious. Perhaps you should qualify what you mean by "impressive".
> Then Toyota Marketing screwed up.
Most automakers have been cycling color selections for decades. It helps to draw attention to new model years and to better control inventory. The very same thing is being done with Prius.
> there are too many controls... very counterintuitive
Reevaluate this after you've used them for a few months.
> Nothing prevented Toyota from just making a single > smaller glove compartment.
There are 9 storage areas spread throughout the new Prius. Toyota put them there because people are always requesting more places to put their stuff (like the return of the storage tray under the front seat).
> I’d still like to hear from someone who has actually > pressed the button
The owner's manually clearly states this is a dangerous thing to do. When you look in the tech manual why, you'll find that holding it for a few seconds will in fact cut the power. But that's not something you could ever accidiently do, especially in that location. The chances of bumping a traditional shifter or traditional ignition are higher.
Darn...I read these threads and wonder if any car is worth its price. I've been a happy Honda and Toyota owner for many years...usually keep a car for at least ten years. Just put $500 down to order a 2004 Prius...drove it and really liked it. Like the mileage. But what about this: "Park" button, while you are driving at full speed?"
___Thanks for all the first hand personal reviews ...
___John1701a, here is an Edmund’s 04 Prius Review quote: Cons “Less power and room than other midsize sedans, center-mounted gauges not intuitive.”
___I have to keep reminding myself that you are the final say on the new and old Prius’ no matter anyone else’s own personal experiences with them.
___Remember these ...
> The 2004 Prius battery pack cost is about $4300
>> That's in LOW-VOLUME early introduction $$$. Many, many years & miles from now *IF* you actually need to replace some modules or the entire pack, production volume will be significantly higher. That will drive the price down.
___With the 01-03 Prius being available in Japan for ~ 7 years, what does the 01-03 Prius battery pack cost INSTALLED? I am sure you know the answer given in 7 years and with the cost of technology falling as fast as it always has ... In other words, someone that changes vehicles every 2 to 3 years with 60,000 or so miles won’t have to worry about it in terms of a non-warranty repair but they do pay for it in depreciation costs.
___On another note, the Edmund’s TCO estimates have been released for the 04 Prius. Notice anything in particular? Given the bath you recently took, maybe you should consider this before you purchase your next new car as well?
Which is a meaningless comment once you've figured out the interface. That's no different many other software interfaces.
FYI: the speedometer is not in the center anymore. It got slid over to the left a few inches to enable the new reflective view, which pushes the display even further forward for even easier viewing. That also literally eliminates any possible washout from sunglare.
> I have to keep reminding myself
And I remind myself that you prefer the short-term perspective... no opinion, just a fact.
> maybe you should consider
No one else will ever be in that position I was in, not even me again. What's your point?
I looked at that the other night, and a few things surprised me, such as the huge depreciation estimate (over $5000) for the first year and a huge repair cost in year 5. I'm trying to figure out these numbers, given that the '04 Prius is a brand-new design with no resale track record, and it appears to be an extremely popular model based on the long waiting lists only a few days after it came on the market. And why such a large repair cost in year 5? Does Edumunds think the engine going to fall out of the car in Month 53? Did they take into account that many of the synergy drive parts are covered for eight years and 100k miles?
If you check other cars, there are similar spikes in maintenance costs around year five. I think Edmunds assume around 12K/year and 60K is usually the big hit on the factory maintenance schedule, typically running $800-$1600 if you just go to the dealer and say "do a 60K check", especially if it requires a timing belt replacement. Combine this with a few replacables like struts, brakes, tires, battery, etc. which Edmunds probably assumes needs replacement then and you've got your cost spike.
It's not unique to the Prius and the average owner probably will find his costs distributed over a few years, not all at once.
I do think one should be careful about getting a Prius if they think they might flip the car in a few years.
Anytime you invest in brand new, emerging technology, you are going to see relatively rapid advances in the first few years. We already have seen this in hybrid technology, and I'm sure current Prius owners are looking at a very soft resale market now that a much more advanced replacement has appeared with little or no increase in cost. I think the same thing will happen with the current model in a few years as the technology is likely to continue advancing rapidly, and Honda (and perhaps others) are not sitting idly by.
If you plan on driving it for five years or more, it probably doesn't matter much.
___Now Edmund’s itself is making meaningless comments? Hmmm. I forgot, you are the Prius answer man and the only one might I add.
___As far as where the speedo is located on the 04 Prius, I posted Toyota’s own Dashboard pic link if you have forgotten so what were you saying?
___I am short term? I guess that is why I am NOT trading in an 03 Corolla LE with just 48,500 miles on it for a new car this month? You can keep taking a bath with the short term trade in value of your Prius’ given the short term view that you apparently have. The last I checked from Black Book, TIV for your 01 was in the $9,000 range. That was a very expensive Prius you owned, wasn’t it? Of course you wouldn’t answer that question the same as you wouldn’t answer how much a battery pack for an 01-03 Prius cost either?
___Backy, I can’t say that Edmund’s own numbers aren’t skewed one way or another as my own 03 Corolla LE w/ 48,000 miles on it says Edmund’s depreciation numbers in particular are unusually high ...
Depreciation: $4,290. This includes my $15,200 purchase price and a 48,000 mile/Clean/Black Book (TIV) of $10,910 vs. Edmund’s $4,033 in depreciation with just 15,000 miles. Financing: $51.00 because it was paid off in 3 months vs. Edmund’s $668. Insurance: $225 every 6 months vs. Edmund’s $402 every 6 months. Taxes and Fees: $1,063 vs. Edmund’s $1,464. Fuel: ~ $1,245.00 for 48,000 miles vs. Edmund’s $2,206 over 45,000 miles. Maintenance: $99.00 vs. Edmund’s $399. Repairs: $40.00 vs. Edmund’s $0.
___What Edmund’s is apparently doing is coming up with some type of averages based on a new model with a history from the old. There is no history other then estimates but those estimates weren’t pulled out of the sky for the 03 Corolla when it was first released in 02 either. As far as Maintenance and Repair costs, they appear to be in line with what the Corolla’s do as well ... Look at year 5 with a maintenance bill of the 03 Corolla = $1,329? That is an expensive tranny repair or worse and I don’t expect that kind of damage to be seen at 75,000 miles nor would I suspect to see it at 250,000 mile either. On a Prius, eventually, the battery replacement is going to be a factor whether that is at 100K, 120K, 150K, or even 200K. At some point, it will be prohibitively expensive to repair both the ICE and the Battery Pack together vs. an ICE of a std. automobile. This apparently is not factored into the listings shown given at 75,000 miles, that HW is still covered under warranty. A possible explanation for a higher repair cost was presented in this Sunday’s Chicago Tribune – Transportation section. A reader asked about the Prius’ maintenance being performed at a local Auto repair shop. The editor said anything of a more serious nature, Toyota is the only place you will probably be able to get it fixed. Going to a dealership is probably the most expensive labor rate you will find on whatever repair.
Just comparing the Prius to some vehicles that *I* feel are in the same ball park as the Prius, the Hyundi Elantra/Sonata, Camry (4cyl), and Honda Accord (4cyl), the Prius TCO doesn't seem all that bad to me. TCO's after 5 years: Prius $28,434 Elantra $29,443 Sonata $31,980 Camry $29,956 Accord $30,933 So not so bad, hmm, am I missing something? BTW, I've sat/test drove the Corolla and Civic, they aren't quite in the same class IMHO, but... Civic Hybrid $27,685 Civic $27,158 Corolla $25,675
Also, I suspect that my TCO numbers would make the Prius look a bit better, as I typically drive close to 20K miles a year....
I found the 04 Prius controls to be a complex solution looking to solve a nonexistent problem. Toyota should have just stuck with the otherwise excellent controls that they have in their conventional cars.
Also agree with the idea that there could be a steep falloff in value as the warranty expires.
___Not that we have been over this a number of times but here is just one bad 04 Prius idea ... Since Smart Start isn’t a std. feature and most Prius’ will not come so equipped, how is placing a FOB into a slot and pushing a button somewhere else to start the car intuitive or more ergonomic? I also still here you saying Edmund’s lied in their own drive of the 04 Prius as well as many here that have said the same thing? Intuitive? Fumbling around for anyone in a new Prius is ridiculous given the usability has already been tweaked over the last 100 years and it works quite well as has been mentioned by those that have driven the new Prius more then once in this thread. What is wrong with a much simpler analog gauge with max RPM’s to the top as well a 60 mph to the top of the gauge(s). You don’t even need to look down given the needles standing straight up give you all you need to know. That is just one intuitive idea.
___Gpsiir, I drive ~ 50,000 miles per year and the Corolla has a much cheaper TCO then either the 01 – 03 or the 04 Prius. This is why Toyota really needs to bring the HSD down in initial cost or it won’t reach the masses. As for comparisons, make the Prius a sedan and it’s a Corolla sized sedan. Make the Corolla a Hatchback and it’s all of a sudden almost an 04 Prius sized hatchback. It’s the initial cost that is the killer. Anyone of us here can purchase a Corolla LE loaded up to the nines including Leather and a Sunroof for < $16,500. Any one of us can also purchase a much larger and much more comfortable Camry XLE w/ Leather, Sun Roof, Wood, Powered and Heated seats, Auto climate, Auto dim, etc ... for < $22,900. The same cannot be said of the Prius even with a minor number of options added.
___Suvppl, what are you doing posting your request here? Please go to an SUV forum ...
many items you can purchase from your dealer parts' department (owners's manual, repair manual, New Car Features guide, etc.), or you can call Toyota Publications at 800-622-2033.
You can also get a day pass to the http://techinfo.toyota.com/ site (if you're in the US) for $10. all the manuals above, TSBs, and other literature there.
or, if you have a good relationship with your dealer, you can get onto the TIS site through them.
The "not" got dropped from the sentence. The point is the same.
> even the first Prius's only very few have reached > that mileage yet
That is HERE. There is an extra 3 years of data in Japan. THERE they have been driving around Prius since 1997.
> it is my understanding in the design, that the battery > pack does not have to be replace in toto only the weak > cells.
That is correct. An owner here actually found that out firsthand too. When having a stereo system installed, a screw was forced through the protective level of metal it punctured a module. (You'd think they'd question what was causing the resistance... duh!) Anyway, the battery-pack continued to function just fine. If it wasn't for the warning by the computer, it may not have been noticed until quite awhile afterward. The damaged module was just ignored.
> complex solution
Prius is the showcar. The one loaded with all the tech goodies. So naturally, it is complex and offers non-traditional interfaces. If you want just a basic hybrid, purchase a Camry or Corolla hybrid a few years from now instead.
> how is placing a FOB into a slot and pushing a > button somewhere else to start the car intuitive > or more ergonomic?
It eliminates the HOLD & TWIST motion that some people have difficulty with. Pushing is easier for them.
> Intuitive?
I also *AGREE* that it isn't intuitive. My point is that once you get past that brief introduction fumbling, it makes sense and becomes easy to use.
> What is wrong with a much simpler analog gauge
They work fine. And if you want one in a hybrid, don't buy Prius, buy a Camry or Corolla hybrid instead. The point with this is that the digital is an improvement, not a necessity.
I am presuming it works like our new 2004 Solara. There is a way to reset it and it is in the manual. Increase your tire pressure and follow the instructions....the bad news: Our 2004 Solara is going back to the dealer for the 5th time because the sensor is malfunctioning again.
___As for your statement about digital being an improvement, not a necessity, you are truly full of yourself. An analog gauge is much easier to comprehend then a numeric digital readout for a tach or speedometer no matter the lighting or ergonomics. That is unless the digital readout is also a circular gauge ala Acura MDX - which in the case of the Prius, it is not. The lighting and ergonomics are also better in most vehicles vs. the new Prius from my limited vantage point but I have not driven one yet either.
___And what about some people finding it harder to place the key in the switch and turn the key then to place the fob into a socket and push a button somewhere else? Who have you been driving with for the past 30 to 40 years? A monkey? I bet even a monkey could start a car with a key vs. the two step - two location process used in the new Prius. Even former Prius owners have had a hard time figuring out how to start the 04 Prius on the dealer’s lot! What don’t you get, it is a huge step backward in both cases, period.
> is fairly easy to gauge the relative magnitude between two > different readings
Really? The needle is wide and the numbers are small. 1 or 2 MPH variances can be easily go unnoticed unless you are stare at it closely (not a safe manuever). But with a digital, it is obvious. It's a number, not a pointer.
> with digital it is impossible
That's just plain not true. It's a number, remember? A more appropriate slam would have been "harder".
Regardless, I win anyway. If analog is preferred, than an emulated software readout (high resolution digital display) in that fashion will likely emerge. The point is that the computer interface doesn't have any moving parts, an old-fashion needle & spring does... which wear out eventually and aren't cheap to replace. (I know this well. My Taurus speedometer developed a bounce over time. It was really annoying.)
that in the article linked above, the Toyota engineer states no Prius battery pack has ever been replaced, except for ones that were defective out of the box. That's not bad.
How about that Thermos thing? Coolant kept near boiling point as long as overnight is instantly pumped to the engine head to warm it for reduced emissions. It can keep coolant at 176 degrees for three days! So basically, after the first time a Prius is ever started, the engine is never cold again. Complicated? Yes. But interesting too, and I would say innovative.
Plus, it means that even when the engine is first turned on, cabin heat is instantly available, and now you have A/C available without the engine even being running (it is electric). Transmission-less, brake-by-wire, electric operation up past 30 mph...the new gen is a tech tour-de-force.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
'cowboy, the "120,000 miles" on the battery replacement was from the service manager at John Elway Toyota, (sorry, should have stated that), I don't know where he got his source, but I figured he's more of an expert on Prius repairs than I am....
xcel: "Gpsiir, I drive ~ 50,000 miles per year and....", I believe the numbers I put in my post says that the Corolla has a TCO less than the Prius, but you and I have to agree to disagree that the Corolla is equal too or better than the Prius. I drove the Corolla, and while I stated I wasn't thrilled with the Prius on the highway (compared to the Camry), the Corolla is a bit worse. The Camry or the Accord are much better as highway cruisers, so.... 'suppose I could wait for the rumored hybrid Accord that is suppose to be out next summer ;-) (or win a lottery and go for the gusto with a hybrid RX400) BTW, the 50,000 miles you drive would add about $1500 to $2000 to the TCO for the Corolla (assume 40mpg for Corolla, 50mpg for Prius), so $27175 verses Prius's $28434. Also, the environmental damage that you would add by driving the Corolla verses the Prius is a bit hard to quantify, and while I know many people don't think much about that (this is the "me first" era after all), it is a consideration for some (me anyway). So, if you could add that to the TCO, wouldn't that make the Prius and the Corolla seem to be closer to the same cost? Then it is a matter of preference (I like the Accord over the Camry, but they are both great vehicles).
___Cost to repair an analog gauge in comparison to an all-digital cluster? If that digital cluster shows up dead as many have in the past, you are going to spend some real big bucks to repair because you cannot drive without it.
___And 1 to 2 mph variances are not what is needed for comprehension to occur. It’s the rate of movement and/or the ability to comprehend the ~ speed or RPM that you are at that is crucial. I can’t remember a car mag that didn’t blast the use of numeric digital readouts for RPM and Speed given the inability to see a rate at which these two parameters are changing. Temperatures, voltages, some pressures, and even direction are unimportant and can be digital-alpha numeric because they don’t change that fast. Tachometers and speedometers do and that is why it is so important to keep a std. round dialed gauge there irregardless if it’s digital or analog and the new Prius screwed the pooch in this regard. The new Corolla tachometer redlines at ~ 6250 RPM. That particular point is shown with an almost directly vertical needle. 60 mph is also almost directly vertical. I don’t use the tachometer that much but speed is always being processed in my drive and I don’t have to even look at the gauge to comprehend that I am traveling at 61 mph given the vertical needle.
analog displays - they're not consistant from car to car - one may list speeds up to 100MPH, the other 200MPH, in the same circular arc space. One may use the 8 to 4 o'clock listing, another 7 to 12. The line spacing may be every 5MPH, 10MPH, 10MPH...
I've never personally seen the need for a tachometer on an automatic transmission. On a Prius with the eCVT, if you had a tach, what could you do with the added information? It'd be as distracting to me as the Energy Monitor is to someone who just started driving the Prius and hasn't learned to turn it off or not pay much attention to it.
The only real complaint that I've seen is that the new reflective placement of the digital spedometer in the new 2004 Prius isn't well placed for tall people - my husband is in the 6'1" range, and the very top of the display is cut off for him. (The spedometer is not affected - it's lower.)
___I cannot comment on other cars but the 03 Corolla’s straight up is 59 mph. Since the Corolla is what I drive 97% of the time, I know where 61 mph is. The 03 Ford Ranger’s straight up is 65 and the 03 Acura MDX’s straight up is 72 mph. As for the Tach’s, all are approaching redlines at the straight up needle position. This is why you don’t have to look at them to figure out what is going on. For many that have either experienced or read about a bad transmission/drive train, the tach can show you signs of drive train trouble before the car is actually un-drivable or dead as it will begin to jump around at a constant speed for example.
___On another note, I do use the tach on the Corolla but only when accelerating. When leaving stop lights, signs, or other reasons for a complete stop as an example, I do not let the Corolla accelerate faster then 2K on the tach unless someone is on my @$$. I have found it not only saves on fuel but makes for seamless gear changes throughout its 4 speeds and OD lockup.
___As mentioned previously, Car Mag’s reviewers have blasted Digital - Numeric readouts since they were first introduced because you cannot judge nor see the rate at which the speed or RPM’s are changing. There is nothing other then an analog or digital round readout that I know of that can change this. The Acura’s Instantaneous has the round digital and is quite pleasant as well as very easy to comprehend ...
I think this digital vs. analog display thing has been evaluated by human factors people for some time.
The concensus of the experts is that it is absolutely vital to have an analog representation in situations where the quantity being measured is changing rapidly and the rate of change is important. That's why you almost never see digital tachometers. It is very easy to time when to shift at redline with an analog tachometer and very hard to do with a digital tachometer. (Note that a instrument that uses an analog representation, even if the underlying data is bars or ticks on a digital LCD panel, is still an analog represetation.)
For speedometers you can make arguments either way. Rate of change isn't typically that fast (especially in a car like the Prius) nor is ROC very important when trying to capture a target speed. And digital speedos are more precise, although this advantage is mitigated a bit by the 5%-10% fudge factor built into most car speedos, analog or digital - they're precision advantage is there only if you go to the trouble of calibrating them and making the calibration adjustments to your driving. OTOH, a glance at a well-designed analog speedometer requires less visual interpretation than a digital one.
Several people have mentioned aircraft instruments. Most modern aircraft use both representations. An analog representation is better for "at a glance reading" - your visual center will build a pattern for what the gauge should look like for a normal reading whereas a digital number has to be interpreted almost every time it is looked at which adds workload, something critical to pilots. When you're glancing across a panel with 30 different instruments to be monitored, this is important! But digital numbers are superior in precision and can't be misread as easily - for example, large aircraft have a digital display of altitude because it is so easy to make a 1K or 10K mis-read of a conventional analog altimeter.
So there is no right/wrong answer here. For car applications, I think is is clear that analog representations are much superior for tachometers and for monitoring instruments like fuel and temp gauges. For speedos, I think it is more a preference thing, in the same way that people prefer analog or digital watches. And I VASTLY prefer analog, whether in a watch or a car.
___I have been receiving ~ 42.5 mpg average over the last 25,000 miles so the extra 10 mpg on the hwy the new Prius might achieve is not even close to the extra $6,000 or so I would have had to pay for it if I would have waited and purchased a new 04 Prius instead. I will agree to disagree as to what is more or less comfortable on the hwy given the Corolla has a poorly designed seat/steering wheel arrangement for most but is very quiet in comparison to the 01-03 Prius’ in particular. Fortunately with the seat height adjuster, it is very comfortable for my 6’-0” frame for my 3 hour + daily commute. As for being better, I would give the 04 Prius the nod in that regard but it most certainly is not worth an almost 50% increase in cost better! The Camry and Accord on the other hand are truly comfortable hwy cruisers and from the 04 Prius’ personal experiences and reviews posted to date, I haven’t heard that the 04 Prius is even close to being better then either the Camry or Accord on the hwy in particular.
___As for TCO, the 04 Prius isn’t even close where gas mileage is concerned vs. a Corolla either. The initial loss of $6,000 (04 Prius above that of an 04 Corolla) cannot ever be made up in my uses.
___Here are my real world numbers so far ...
It costs ~ $7,850 in fuel to travel 200,000 miles in an 03/04 Corolla (42.0 mpg @ 1.65/gallon). I have been averaging slightly higher then this over the last 25,000 miles but the cold weather season is coming ... I am currently paying $1.49 per gallon but have paid as high as $1.75/gallon earlier this summer.
It costs ~ $6,175 in fuel to travel 200,000 miles in an 04 Prius (53.5 mpg @ 1.65/gallon). I might even be able to do better on that hwy number.
___The battery pack will have to be replaced somewhere in that 200,000 miles so the gain of $1,700 with lower fuel consumption in the 04 Prius vs. an 04 Corolla can never be made up given the $6,000 the 04 Prius costs over and above the 04 Corolla (initial purchase price) in my situation. The cost equation shows the 04 Prius in an even worse TCO relationship as the miles climb up to where the car is truly junk. 300K, 400K, 500K miles? Whatever amount. The battery pack replacement cost is far higher then the fuel savings over 200,000 miles thus making it a far higher TCO from its initial purchase to the time I give it away as a donation in my almost all hwy use.
___As for pollution, the 04 Prius outputs ~ 20% less CO2 over those 200,000 miles then the Corolla and I don’t have a number on HC and NOx. The Corolla is a ULEV based automobile however ... I think I will stick with the $6,000 + in my pocket over those 200,000 miles. If you were to consider lowering your own pollution output, you might consider getting rid of everything but the Prius and purchase a PZEV based Ford Focus for your other driving needs.
___As has been mentioned in the past, the 04 Prius will never pay for itself in fuel consumption alone in comparison to an 03/04 Corolla nor does it have the size or comfort of the Camry. Until its initial costs come down, you aren’t going to see it sold in similar numbers as the Camry/Corolla anytime in the near future IMHO.
I wonder how Toyota reasoned that Prius buyers might want nav, xenon lights, and keyless entry, but not power seats or leather seats. Seems crazy to me. Seems like they can't decide whether it's an economy car or a luxury car.
My question is the need for a tachometer in a car with an automatic transmission, especially one with an eCVT like the Prius, since even if the engine RPMs are high there's nothing that you can do about it. I understand that a tachometer is needed in a manual transmission automobile to know when to shift.
unfortuantely, my 2004 Prius is still in transit, and I have not taken delivery yet. it was supposed to arrive at the port of NY today.
my understanding of the tire pressure monitor on the 2004 Prius is that it is similar to that on the Sienna. I think that's a rotationally-based one. There's some procedure to change the computer settings should you change your tires. I think it only warns you if you're dangerously under pressure - it's still best to check it yourself often. I also understand that in a few years all cars sold in the US are supposed to come with tire pressure monitors of some form...
Personally I feel that the only Camry that can be compared to the Prius is the California-only PZEV engined one...
At least then the emissions are at about the same level.
It's usually difficult to put a dollar amount on the price of clean air, and fewer respiratory disease flare-ups.
(MPG is directly related to the amount of greenhouse gas forming compounds released from the vehicle, but has nothing to do with the emissions rating which is based on the amount of smog-forming compounds released from the vehicle.)
>I wonder how Toyota reasoned that Prius buyers >might want nav, xenon lights, and keyless entry, >but not power seats or leather seats. Seems >crazy to me. Seems like they can't decide >whether it's an economy car or a luxury car.
This is exactly how I'd want the options in a car to be. I'd definitely pay for stuff that's convenient such as smart entry/start, bluetooth, navigation, etc. However, I wouldn't be willing to pay much more for power seats or leather. I mean, how many times do you really need to adjust your seat?? I guess if you have multiple people driving the car, but even so, doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I'm glad that I can have the hi-tech options that are normally found on a luxury car without having to pay for all that other stuff that's normally found on a luxury car (such as leather and power seats). I'm sure if I feel this way, some others must feel the same. Doesn't mean this will be desireable for a majority of consumers however.
How come there isn't a "Toyota Prius - Prices Paid & Buying Experience" type discussion like there is for other vehicles?
How come people on here are not willing to state what they paid, and what they got for their last gen Prius trade (was it really that bad??)? I've heard pricing in the upper $20k's out the door for the new Prius...is that right?
> What's wrong with the old vehicle categories, > but with better gas mileage?
Toyota wants to increase market-share.
Simply pushing more of the same configuration of vehicle won't accomplish that. But offering different configurations IN ADDITION TO the current ones (which will be available as both traditional & hybrid) will.
Greater selection means there's a greater chance of matching consumer desires. That's something the competition can't compete with, hence a gain for Toyota.
To achieve their 5% increase goal in 10 years (by 2012), more than just adding hybrid guts is needed... especially when the appeal for traditional drops.
So, as I understand it, omitting such popular options as power seats should be considered as an innovation that will increase market share? Reminds me of the Pacifica, where the public was supposed to consider an overweight, large, underpowered, 4 seat station wagon to be an innovative new category of vehicle.
Comments
Things we liked:
Thank God they fixed the brakes! The 2002 brakes are grabby, almost dangerous if you're not used to them. The 2004 brakes are perfect-- a vast improvement.
They fixed the instrument panel! On the 2002 the digital read-out panel (speedometer) is dead center, on the 2004 it's directly in front of the driver (although it feels farther away from you than on the 2002)
The 2002 feels a little like driving an enclosed golf cart. The 2004 feels like your average car. Thank you Toyota for making it bigger!
The 2004 has more room in the front wheel wells to accommodate chains, and they are normal tires! We've had constant problems with the 2002 small hard tires.
The starter battery is much easier to access on the 2004, than on the 2002-- although we never had to jump start our 2002, even after leaving it at the airport's long term parking for three weeks.
The storage room of the 2004 hatchback is great compared to the 2002. But of course, the 2004 is a larger car and a hatchback.
The back seat passenger room is great, and headroom is fine unless you are a "big hair" type.
What we didn't like:
The controls are more cluttered, counter intuitive and distracting on the 2004 than on the 2002. There are a lot of changes from the 2002 to the 2004, but the end result is still confusing and distracting-- even for former Prius owners like ourselves. The 2002 has manual and touch screen controls. The latter are passable, but the manual controls are not laid out ergonomically and are counterintuitive. The 2004 now adds steering wheel controls (too many, in my opinion-- SAAB and BMW have got the balance right here) and even more manual controls on the dash and around the touchscreen itself. Rather than improving the 2002 controls mess, the 2004 additions and options actually worsen the situation.
Rear view visibility is worse on the 2004 than on the 2002. If you've ever driven a newer style SAAB hatchback, you know what I mean. Parallel parking is more difficult in the 2004 as a result.
The increase in power from the 2004 hybrid engine is not as great as we would have liked. It's true that the engine is more powerful, but the 2004 is also heavier, off-setting much of the power gains. The 2002 actually feels "zippier" than the 2004 because it's lighter. Also, the great storage room of the 2004 hatchback just begs to be loaded up with cargo, and any power gains may be lost entirely. More power please!
The 2002 has better handling than the 2004 because it's lighter and shorter. I would not get a 2004 without the "Vehicle Stability Control (VCS)" option of package #7 (AM). For 2005, Toyota should increase power and add better control and stabilization for a sportier ride.
We would like more seat adjustment controls-- vertical controls, lumbar, and a greater number of incremental horizontal positions.
Toyota needs to get out of the "civil servant" or "commuter pastel" rut and offer better solid color options. The red is great, but what happened to the great navy blue available on the 2002s?
In the dumb and gimmicky department:
Some of the steering wheel and dash controls (see above). No need to reinvent the wheel here. Controls should be simple, ergonomic, intuitive, and enable you to use them by feel and not sight.
The key "thing." Try getting the key fob out of the dash with gloves on. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Two glove compartments? One is fine.
The tiny front quarter panel windows are useless. For style not function.
Bottom line:
We're still undecided as to whether we'll trade up this year.
Question:
What happens if you accidentally push the "Park" button while you are driving at full speed? I was tempted to push it during our test drive, but chickened out. Anybody know the answer?
My very short lived experience with another dealership right down the road. I have a friend who I got interested in the Prius, so I decided to call to see if they had any to test drive. I was asked immediately for my name, then was told to hold. The the sales person got back on the phone and asked for my name again AND my number so she could call me back in 10 minutes (I have caller ID blocked- I wonder if that had something to do with it). I said it was a pretty simple question- "do you or don't you have a Prius to test drive?" She said she wanted to call me back because the one they had was out being test driven at that moment. I told her that was OK, since I now knew they had one there i would just come on down and wait my turn to drive it (well, for my friend to drive it). After I said this, she then asked me to hold again! I did- I 'held' the cradle button down to hang up the phone to call my friend to let him know we were going to the no-commissioned Toyota dealership! I think one reason I hold on to the cars I drive so long is the excruciating feeling I get when I have to face car salesman! There is such a difference when someone knows they'll get a bonus on customer satisfaction as opposed to sales!
Question- has anyone else had worries about the 'tan' intereior color getting dirty too easily? The car I test drove had the Tan, and there were already some spots on the arm rest. I think I like the Red ext color the best (really a maroon), but it only comes with the tan interior. The only 2004 Prius that come with the opt of the grey interior is white and black. I thought the black Prius would look super cool, but is it ever hard to keep black cars looking clean! They did have a white Prius on the lot and it did look pretty good, tho I could do without the black door pillars. Man, if Toyota had only made it in their pearl white (like on their Solaris) it would be a no brainer. Has anyone seen a white Prius on the road? Did it look any good?
Finally- is it just me, or is the Prius colr 'tideland' the greyest looking 'green' in the world?
> Rather than improving the 2002 controls mess,
> the 2004 additions and options actually worsen
> the situation.
Are you considering it a mess now that users have a choice of 3 different ways (feel, sight, voice) to adjust items?
> off-setting much of the power gains
125 pounds is a lot? And an increase in 2.4 seconds isn't?
> Parallel parking is more difficult
Really? Now you can actually see the very back corner of the vehicle, and the back window is a little lower.
> The 2002 has better handling than the 2004
Perhaps with city driving in snow, but surely not on the highway. The larger wheels and longer wheelbase offer a nice improvement at high speeds.
> what happened to the great navy blue available on the 2002s?
Marketing. Color options are cycled over the years.
> Controls should be simple, ergonomic, intuitive,
> and enable you to use them by feel and not sight.
The steering-wheel controls *ARE* all carefully marked with unique identifiers to make them usable by feel. Some bulge out, some bulge in, some have a pinpoint, and some have a line.
> Two glove compartments? One is fine
The one is so large, small items disappear into its depth.
> What happens if you accidentally push the "Park" button
> while you are driving at full speed?
Nothing. The benefit of drive-by-wire is the fact that the computer can intercept illogical requests.
JOHN
i took another test drive on the mini (my area doesn't have the new prius yet) and compared it against my '02 prius. as you know, the mini has a very large center mount speedo but it is in analog readout. let me say i don't like that setup at all because for one, it is too close to the driver's eyes so i have to slightly look down to see the number and two, the speedo is old fashion analog so it takes me a little longer to see what my speed is because the spacing of the numbers are all different for every car. what i mean is that some car has a lower speed limit so the its speedo has the number spacing farther apart so you can see more number (i.e. 40 line 45 line 50 so on). on the other hand, sporty car has their spacing closer together so you see more of the lines in between numbers (i.e. 40 line line 60 line line 80 so on).
on the prius, the speedo is center but it is farther away so i don't have to look down to see it and ..wow the digital speedo has no learning curve. what you see is what you get. a few posts argued against the digital numbers because it might not show all the number if you were to hit the brake hard (ie. 35, 34, 33...). i did the test on my prius and it does show all the numbers as i decelerate hard...it only skips a few digits at a very low dec speed (ie. 10, 6, 5, 3, 0). in an emergency or panic stop, you are not looking at the speedo anyway to gauge your speed so it does not matter that a few digits were skipped.
anyway, my reason against the mini's speedo wan't sufficient enough for me to order one. so in 6 weeks i should get my mini. and maybe the prius will be in my part of wood for me to try one out. hopefully i have made a right decision. thanks everyone for very informative posts.
My very short lived experience with another dealership right down the road. I have a friend who I got interested in the Prius, so I decided to call to see if they had any to test drive. I was asked immediately for my name, then was told to hold. The the sales person got back on the phone and asked for my name again AND my number so she could call me back in 10 minutes (I have caller ID blocked- I wonder if that had something to do with it). I said it was a pretty simple question- "do you or don't you have a Prius to test drive?" She said she wanted to call me back because the one they had was out being test driven at that moment. I told her that was OK, since I now knew they had one there i would just come on down and wait my turn to drive it (well, for my friend to drive it). After I said this, she then asked me to hold again! I did- I 'held' the cradle button down to hang up the phone to call my friend to let him know we were going to the no-commissioned Toyota dealership! I think one reason I hold on to the cars I drive so long is the excruciating feeling I get when I have to face car salesman! There is such a difference when someone knows they'll get a bonus on customer satisfaction as opposed to sales!
Question- has anyone else had worries about the 'tan' intereior color getting dirty too easily? The car I test drove had the Tan, and there were already some spots on the arm rest. I think I like the Red ext color the best (really a maroon), but it only comes with the tan interior. The only 2004 Prius that come with the opt of the grey interior is white and black. I thought the black Prius would look super cool, but is it ever hard to keep black cars looking clean! They did have a white Prius on the lot and it did look pretty good, tho I could do without the black door pillars. Man, if Toyota had only made it in their pearl white (like on their Solaris) it would be a no brainer. Has anyone seen a white Prius on the road? Did it look any good?
Finally- is it just me, or is the Prius colr 'tideland' the greyest looking 'green' in the world?
In both cars, I'd take conventional analog instruments directly in front of the driver over these split systems in a heartbeat. But we've already beat this to death.
- Mark
There really isn't much to discuss. The 2004 Prius is cleaner, more efficient, more powerful, and bigger... all for the same price.
JOHN
> >Rather than improving the 2002 controls mess,
> >the 2004 additions and options actually worsen
> >the situation.
>Are you considering it a mess now that users have a choice of 3 different ways
>(feel, sight, voice) to adjust items?
Yes. “Voice” is for DVD mapping only. “Feel” only applies to the steering wheel controls, which are overdone—not the dashboard controls, which are the worst part of the “mess.” Lastly, all “sight” controls on a car are inherently dangerous because they take your eyes off the road.
>> off-setting much of the power gains
>125 pounds is a lot? And an increase in 2.4 seconds isn't?
Test drive both the 2002 and the 2004 back to back (which we did since we own a 2002 Prius) and you’ll see for yourself that the 2004 power gains are not that impressive.
>> Parallel parking is more difficult
>Really? Now you can actually see the very back corner of the vehicle, and the >back window is a little lower.
The 2002 rear view is better than the 2004. Try it and you’ll see.
>> The 2002 has better handling than the 2004
>Perhaps with city driving in snow, but surely not on the highway. The larger >wheels and longer wheelbase offer a nice improvement at high speeds.
I mean precisely at highway speeds. Our test drive was at 70+ weaving in and out of psycho Los Angeles freeway traffic. At high speeds the 2004 body rolls too much when you take evasive action—hence the need for the VSC option of package #7.
>> what happened to the great navy blue available on the 2002s?
>Marketing. Color options are cycled over the years.
Then Toyota Marketing screwed up.
> >Controls should be simple, ergonomic, intuitive,
> >and enable you to use them by feel and not sight.
>The steering-wheel controls *ARE* all carefully marked with unique identifiers >to make them usable by feel. Some bulge out, some bulge in, some have a >pinpoint, and some have a line.
As I said, there are too many controls on the steering wheel, and there are no “feel” usability features for any of the dashboard controls, and the layout for the latter is a very counterintuitive and distracting mess.
>> Two glove compartments? One is fine
>The one is so large, small items disappear into its depth.
Nothing prevented Toyota from just making a single smaller glove compartment.
>> What happens if you accidentally push the "Park" button
>>while you are driving at full speed?
>Nothing. The benefit of drive-by-wire is the fact that the computer can intercept >illogical requests.
I’d still like to hear from someone who has actually pressed the button while the car was traveling at speed.
Nope.
All of the following commands work too, and they have nothing to do with mapping: 65 degrees, 66 degrees, 67 degrees, 68 degrees, 69 degrees, 70 degrees, 71 degrees, 72 degrees, 73 degrees, 74 degrees, 75 degrees, 76 degrees, 77 degrees, 78 degrees, 79 degrees, 80 degrees, 81 degrees, 82 degrees, 83 degrees, 84 degrees, 85 degrees, Radio, AM, FM, FM1, FM2, CD, CD changer, Cassette, Audio, Seek up, Seek down, Fast forward, Rewind, Play, Reverse, Next track, Previous track, Skip backward, Track up, Track down, Previous track, Disc up, Disc down, Automatic air conditioning, Raise temperature, Lower temperature, Next CD, Next track
> “sight” controls on a car are inherently dangerous
Yes, I agree. But the fact that you rarely need to use them helps a lot. That climate control is *AUTOMATIC* even in the base model means, you just set the temperature and leave it.
> Test drive both the 2002 and the 2004 back to back
I drove my 2001 for 59,827 miles over the last 3 years. The pep increase in the 2004 is quite obvious. Perhaps you should qualify what you mean by "impressive".
> Then Toyota Marketing screwed up.
Most automakers have been cycling color selections for decades. It helps to draw attention to new model years and to better control inventory. The very same thing is being done with Prius.
> there are too many controls... very counterintuitive
Reevaluate this after you've used them for a few months.
> Nothing prevented Toyota from just making a single
> smaller glove compartment.
There are 9 storage areas spread throughout the new Prius. Toyota put them there because people are always requesting more places to put their stuff (like the return of the storage tray under the front seat).
> I’d still like to hear from someone who has actually
> pressed the button
The owner's manually clearly states this is a dangerous thing to do. When you look in the tech manual why, you'll find that holding it for a few seconds will in fact cut the power. But that's not something you could ever accidiently do, especially in that location. The chances of bumping a traditional shifter or traditional ignition are higher.
JOHN
___Thanks for all the first hand personal reviews ...
___John1701a, here is an Edmund’s 04 Prius Review quote: Cons “Less power and room than other midsize sedans, center-mounted gauges not intuitive.”
___I have to keep reminding myself that you are the final say on the new and old Prius’ no matter anyone else’s own personal experiences with them.
___Remember these ...
> The 2004 Prius battery pack cost is about $4300
>> That's in LOW-VOLUME early introduction $$$. Many, many years & miles from now *IF* you actually need to replace some modules or the entire pack, production volume will be significantly higher. That will drive the price down.
___With the 01-03 Prius being available in Japan for ~ 7 years, what does the 01-03 Prius battery pack cost INSTALLED? I am sure you know the answer given in 7 years and with the cost of technology falling as fast as it always has ... In other words, someone that changes vehicles every 2 to 3 years with 60,000 or so miles won’t have to worry about it in terms of a non-warranty repair but they do pay for it in depreciation costs.
___On another note, the Edmund’s TCO estimates have been released for the 04 Prius. Notice anything in particular? Given the bath you recently took, maybe you should consider this before you purchase your next new car as well?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
Which is a meaningless comment once you've figured out the interface. That's no different many other software interfaces.
FYI: the speedometer is not in the center anymore. It got slid over to the left a few inches to enable the new reflective view, which pushes the display even further forward for even easier viewing. That also literally eliminates any possible washout from sunglare.
> I have to keep reminding myself
And I remind myself that you prefer the short-term perspective... no opinion, just a fact.
> maybe you should consider
No one else will ever be in that position I was in, not even me again. What's your point?
JOHN
It's not unique to the Prius and the average owner probably will find his costs distributed over a few years, not all at once.
- Mark
Anytime you invest in brand new, emerging technology, you are going to see relatively rapid advances in the first few years. We already have seen this in hybrid technology, and I'm sure current Prius owners are looking at a very soft resale market now that a much more advanced replacement has appeared with little or no increase in cost. I think the same thing will happen with the current model in a few years as the technology is likely to continue advancing rapidly, and Honda (and perhaps others) are not sitting idly by.
If you plan on driving it for five years or more, it probably doesn't matter much.
- Mark
___Now Edmund’s itself is making meaningless comments? Hmmm. I forgot, you are the Prius answer man and the only one might I add.
___As far as where the speedo is located on the 04 Prius, I posted Toyota’s own Dashboard pic link if you have forgotten so what were you saying?
___I am short term? I guess that is why I am NOT trading in an 03 Corolla LE with just 48,500 miles on it for a new car this month? You can keep taking a bath with the short term trade in value of your Prius’ given the short term view that you apparently have. The last I checked from Black Book, TIV for your 01 was in the $9,000 range. That was a very expensive Prius you owned, wasn’t it? Of course you wouldn’t answer that question the same as you wouldn’t answer how much a battery pack for an 01-03 Prius cost either?
___Backy, I can’t say that Edmund’s own numbers aren’t skewed one way or another as my own 03 Corolla LE w/ 48,000 miles on it says Edmund’s depreciation numbers in particular are unusually high ...
Depreciation: $4,290. This includes my $15,200 purchase price and a 48,000 mile/Clean/Black Book (TIV) of $10,910 vs. Edmund’s $4,033 in depreciation with just 15,000 miles.
Financing: $51.00 because it was paid off in 3 months vs. Edmund’s $668.
Insurance: $225 every 6 months vs. Edmund’s $402 every 6 months.
Taxes and Fees: $1,063 vs. Edmund’s $1,464.
Fuel: ~ $1,245.00 for 48,000 miles vs. Edmund’s $2,206 over 45,000 miles.
Maintenance: $99.00 vs. Edmund’s $399.
Repairs: $40.00 vs. Edmund’s $0.
___What Edmund’s is apparently doing is coming up with some type of averages based on a new model with a history from the old. There is no history other then estimates but those estimates weren’t pulled out of the sky for the 03 Corolla when it was first released in 02 either. As far as Maintenance and Repair costs, they appear to be in line with what the Corolla’s do as well ... Look at year 5 with a maintenance bill of the 03 Corolla = $1,329? That is an expensive tranny repair or worse and I don’t expect that kind of damage to be seen at 75,000 miles nor would I suspect to see it at 250,000 mile either. On a Prius, eventually, the battery replacement is going to be a factor whether that is at 100K, 120K, 150K, or even 200K. At some point, it will be prohibitively expensive to repair both the ICE and the Battery Pack together vs. an ICE of a std. automobile. This apparently is not factored into the listings shown given at 75,000 miles, that HW is still covered under warranty. A possible explanation for a higher repair cost was presented in this Sunday’s Chicago Tribune – Transportation section. A reader asked about the Prius’ maintenance being performed at a local Auto repair shop. The editor said anything of a more serious nature, Toyota is the only place you will probably be able to get it fixed. Going to a dealership is probably the most expensive labor rate you will find on whatever repair.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
Intuitive means "unclear at first". Once you learn the interface, it's no big deal... or meaningless.
> short term
Short term means "first model year in a still developing market". It did not mean keeping it for just a few years.
JOHN
Many thanks.
TCO's after 5 years:
Prius $28,434
Elantra $29,443
Sonata $31,980
Camry $29,956
Accord $30,933
So not so bad, hmm, am I missing something? BTW, I've sat/test drove the Corolla and Civic, they aren't quite in the same class IMHO, but...
Civic Hybrid $27,685
Civic $27,158
Corolla $25,675
Also, I suspect that my TCO numbers would make the Prius look a bit better, as I typically drive close to 20K miles a year....
Also agree with the idea that there could be a steep falloff in value as the warranty expires.
___Not that we have been over this a number of times but here is just one bad 04 Prius idea ... Since Smart Start isn’t a std. feature and most Prius’ will not come so equipped, how is placing a FOB into a slot and pushing a button somewhere else to start the car intuitive or more ergonomic? I also still here you saying Edmund’s lied in their own drive of the 04 Prius as well as many here that have said the same thing? Intuitive? Fumbling around for anyone in a new Prius is ridiculous given the usability has already been tweaked over the last 100 years and it works quite well as has been mentioned by those that have driven the new Prius more then once in this thread. What is wrong with a much simpler analog gauge with max RPM’s to the top as well a 60 mph to the top of the gauge(s). You don’t even need to look down given the needles standing straight up give you all you need to know. That is just one intuitive idea.
___Gpsiir, I drive ~ 50,000 miles per year and the Corolla has a much cheaper TCO then either the 01 – 03 or the 04 Prius. This is why Toyota really needs to bring the HSD down in initial cost or it won’t reach the masses. As for comparisons, make the Prius a sedan and it’s a Corolla sized sedan. Make the Corolla a Hatchback and it’s all of a sudden almost an 04 Prius sized hatchback. It’s the initial cost that is the killer. Anyone of us here can purchase a Corolla LE loaded up to the nines including Leather and a Sunroof for < $16,500. Any one of us can also purchase a much larger and much more comfortable Camry XLE w/ Leather, Sun Roof, Wood, Powered and Heated seats, Auto climate, Auto dim, etc ... for < $22,900. The same cannot be said of the Prius even with a minor number of options added.
___Suvppl, what are you doing posting your request here? Please go to an SUV forum ...
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
department (owners's manual, repair manual, New
Car Features guide, etc.), or you can call Toyota
Publications at 800-622-2033.
You can also get a day pass to the http://techinfo.toyota.com/
site (if you're in the US) for $10. all the manuals
above, TSBs, and other literature there.
or, if you have a good relationship with your dealer,
you can get onto the TIS site through them.
The "not" got dropped from the sentence. The point is the same.
> even the first Prius's only very few have reached
> that mileage yet
That is HERE. There is an extra 3 years of data in Japan. THERE they have been driving around Prius since 1997.
> it is my understanding in the design, that the battery
> pack does not have to be replace in toto only the weak
> cells.
That is correct. An owner here actually found that out firsthand too. When having a stereo system installed, a screw was forced through the protective level of metal it punctured a module. (You'd think they'd question what was causing the resistance... duh!) Anyway, the battery-pack continued to function just fine. If it wasn't for the warning by the computer, it may not have been noticed until quite awhile afterward. The damaged module was just ignored.
> complex solution
Prius is the showcar. The one loaded with all the tech goodies. So naturally, it is complex and offers non-traditional interfaces. If you want just a basic hybrid, purchase a Camry or Corolla hybrid a few years from now instead.
JOHN
> button somewhere else to start the car intuitive
> or more ergonomic?
It eliminates the HOLD & TWIST motion that some people have difficulty with. Pushing is easier for them.
> Intuitive?
I also *AGREE* that it isn't intuitive. My point is that once you get past that brief introduction fumbling, it makes sense and becomes easy to use.
> What is wrong with a much simpler analog gauge
They work fine. And if you want one in a hybrid, don't buy Prius, buy a Camry or Corolla hybrid instead. The point with this is that the digital is an improvement, not a necessity.
JOHN
___As for your statement about digital being an improvement, not a necessity, you are truly full of yourself. An analog gauge is much easier to comprehend then a numeric digital readout for a tach or speedometer no matter the lighting or ergonomics. That is unless the digital readout is also a circular gauge ala Acura MDX - which in the case of the Prius, it is not. The lighting and ergonomics are also better in most vehicles vs. the new Prius from my limited vantage point but I have not driven one yet either.
___And what about some people finding it harder to place the key in the switch and turn the key then to place the fob into a socket and push a button somewhere else? Who have you been driving with for the past 30 to 40 years? A monkey? I bet even a monkey could start a car with a key vs. the two step - two location process used in the new Prius. Even former Prius owners have had a hard time figuring out how to start the 04 Prius on the dealer’s lot! What don’t you get, it is a huge step backward in both cases, period.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
> different readings
Really? The needle is wide and the numbers are small. 1 or 2 MPH variances can be easily go unnoticed unless you are stare at it closely (not a safe manuever). But with a digital, it is obvious. It's a number, not a pointer.
> with digital it is impossible
That's just plain not true. It's a number, remember? A more appropriate slam would have been "harder".
Regardless, I win anyway. If analog is preferred, than an emulated software readout (high resolution digital display) in that fashion will likely emerge. The point is that the computer interface doesn't have any moving parts, an old-fashion needle & spring does... which wear out eventually and aren't cheap to replace. (I know this well. My Taurus speedometer developed a bounce over time. It was really annoying.)
JOHN
How about that Thermos thing? Coolant kept near boiling point as long as overnight is instantly pumped to the engine head to warm it for reduced emissions. It can keep coolant at 176 degrees for three days! So basically, after the first time a Prius is ever started, the engine is never cold again. Complicated? Yes. But interesting too, and I would say innovative.
Plus, it means that even when the engine is first turned on, cabin heat is instantly available, and now you have A/C available without the engine even being running (it is electric). Transmission-less, brake-by-wire, electric operation up past 30 mph...the new gen is a tech tour-de-force.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
xcel: "Gpsiir, I drive ~ 50,000 miles per year and....", I believe the numbers I put in my post says that the Corolla has a TCO less than the Prius, but you and I have to agree to disagree that the Corolla is equal too or better than the Prius. I drove the Corolla, and while I stated I wasn't thrilled with the Prius on the highway (compared to the Camry), the Corolla is a bit worse. The Camry or the Accord are much better as highway cruisers, so.... 'suppose I could wait for the rumored hybrid Accord that is suppose to be out next summer ;-) (or win a lottery and go for the gusto with a hybrid RX400) BTW, the 50,000 miles you drive would add about $1500 to $2000 to the TCO for the Corolla (assume 40mpg for Corolla, 50mpg for Prius), so $27175 verses Prius's $28434. Also, the environmental damage that you would add by driving the Corolla verses the Prius is a bit hard to quantify, and while I know many people don't think much about that (this is the "me first" era after all), it is a consideration for some (me anyway). So, if you could add that to the TCO, wouldn't that make the Prius and the Corolla seem to be closer to the same cost? Then it is a matter of preference (I like the Accord over the Camry, but they are both great vehicles).
___Cost to repair an analog gauge in comparison to an all-digital cluster? If that digital cluster shows up dead as many have in the past, you are going to spend some real big bucks to repair because you cannot drive without it.
___And 1 to 2 mph variances are not what is needed for comprehension to occur. It’s the rate of movement and/or the ability to comprehend the ~ speed or RPM that you are at that is crucial. I can’t remember a car mag that didn’t blast the use of numeric digital readouts for RPM and Speed given the inability to see a rate at which these two parameters are changing. Temperatures, voltages, some pressures, and even direction are unimportant and can be digital-alpha numeric because they don’t change that fast. Tachometers and speedometers do and that is why it is so important to keep a std. round dialed gauge there irregardless if it’s digital or analog and the new Prius screwed the pooch in this regard. The new Corolla tachometer redlines at ~ 6250 RPM. That particular point is shown with an almost directly vertical needle. 60 mph is also almost directly vertical. I don’t use the tachometer that much but speed is always being processed in my drive and I don’t have to even look at the gauge to comprehend that I am traveling at 61 mph given the vertical needle.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
analog displays - they're not consistant from car
to car - one may list speeds up to 100MPH, the other
200MPH, in the same circular arc space. One may
use the 8 to 4 o'clock listing, another 7 to 12.
The line spacing may be every 5MPH, 10MPH, 10MPH...
I've never personally seen the need for a tachometer
on an automatic transmission. On a Prius with the
eCVT, if you had a tach, what could you do with
the added information? It'd be as distracting to
me as the Energy Monitor is to someone who just
started driving the Prius and hasn't learned to
turn it off or not pay much attention to it.
The only real complaint that I've seen is that the
new reflective placement of the digital spedometer
in the new 2004 Prius isn't well placed for tall
people - my husband is in the 6'1" range, and the
very top of the display is cut off for him. (The
spedometer is not affected - it's lower.)
___I cannot comment on other cars but the 03 Corolla’s straight up is 59 mph. Since the Corolla is what I drive 97% of the time, I know where 61 mph is. The 03 Ford Ranger’s straight up is 65 and the 03 Acura MDX’s straight up is 72 mph. As for the Tach’s, all are approaching redlines at the straight up needle position. This is why you don’t have to look at them to figure out what is going on. For many that have either experienced or read about a bad transmission/drive train, the tach can show you signs of drive train trouble before the car is actually un-drivable or dead as it will begin to jump around at a constant speed for example.
___On another note, I do use the tach on the Corolla but only when accelerating. When leaving stop lights, signs, or other reasons for a complete stop as an example, I do not let the Corolla accelerate faster then 2K on the tach unless someone is on my @$$. I have found it not only saves on fuel but makes for seamless gear changes throughout its 4 speeds and OD lockup.
___As mentioned previously, Car Mag’s reviewers have blasted Digital - Numeric readouts since they were first introduced because you cannot judge nor see the rate at which the speed or RPM’s are changing. There is nothing other then an analog or digital round readout that I know of that can change this. The Acura’s Instantaneous has the round digital and is quite pleasant as well as very easy to comprehend ...
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
The concensus of the experts is that it is absolutely vital to have an analog representation in situations where the quantity being measured is changing rapidly and the rate of change is important. That's why you almost never see digital tachometers. It is very easy to time when to shift at redline with an analog tachometer and very hard to do with a digital tachometer. (Note that a instrument that uses an analog representation, even if the underlying data is bars or ticks on a digital LCD panel, is still an analog represetation.)
For speedometers you can make arguments either way. Rate of change isn't typically that fast (especially in a car like the Prius) nor is ROC very important when trying to capture a target speed. And digital speedos are more precise, although this advantage is mitigated a bit by the 5%-10% fudge factor built into most car speedos, analog or digital - they're precision advantage is there only if you go to the trouble of calibrating them and making the calibration adjustments to your driving. OTOH, a glance at a well-designed analog speedometer requires less visual interpretation than a digital one.
Several people have mentioned aircraft instruments. Most modern aircraft use both representations. An analog representation is better for "at a glance reading" - your visual center will build a pattern for what the gauge should look like for a normal reading whereas a digital number has to be interpreted almost every time it is looked at which adds workload, something critical to pilots. When you're glancing across a panel with 30 different instruments to be monitored, this is important! But digital numbers are superior in precision and can't be misread as easily - for example, large aircraft have a digital display of altitude because it is so easy to make a 1K or 10K mis-read of a conventional analog altimeter.
So there is no right/wrong answer here. For car applications, I think is is clear that analog representations are much superior for tachometers and for monitoring instruments like fuel and temp gauges. For speedos, I think it is more a preference thing, in the same way that people prefer analog or digital watches. And I VASTLY prefer analog, whether in a watch or a car.
- Mark
___Sorry I missed your earlier post ...
___I have been receiving ~ 42.5 mpg average over the last 25,000 miles so the extra 10 mpg on the hwy the new Prius might achieve is not even close to the extra $6,000 or so I would have had to pay for it if I would have waited and purchased a new 04 Prius instead. I will agree to disagree as to what is more or less comfortable on the hwy given the Corolla has a poorly designed seat/steering wheel arrangement for most but is very quiet in comparison to the 01-03 Prius’ in particular. Fortunately with the seat height adjuster, it is very comfortable for my 6’-0” frame for my 3 hour + daily commute. As for being better, I would give the 04 Prius the nod in that regard but it most certainly is not worth an almost 50% increase in cost better! The Camry and Accord on the other hand are truly comfortable hwy cruisers and from the 04 Prius’ personal experiences and reviews posted to date, I haven’t heard that the 04 Prius is even close to being better then either the Camry or Accord on the hwy in particular.
___As for TCO, the 04 Prius isn’t even close where gas mileage is concerned vs. a Corolla either. The initial loss of $6,000 (04 Prius above that of an 04 Corolla) cannot ever be made up in my uses.
___Here are my real world numbers so far ...
It costs ~ $7,850 in fuel to travel 200,000 miles in an 03/04 Corolla (42.0 mpg @ 1.65/gallon). I have been averaging slightly higher then this over the last 25,000 miles but the cold weather season is coming ... I am currently paying $1.49 per gallon but have paid as high as $1.75/gallon earlier this summer.
It costs ~ $6,175 in fuel to travel 200,000 miles in an 04 Prius (53.5 mpg @ 1.65/gallon). I might even be able to do better on that hwy number.
___The battery pack will have to be replaced somewhere in that 200,000 miles so the gain of $1,700 with lower fuel consumption in the 04 Prius vs. an 04 Corolla can never be made up given the $6,000 the 04 Prius costs over and above the 04 Corolla (initial purchase price) in my situation. The cost equation shows the 04 Prius in an even worse TCO relationship as the miles climb up to where the car is truly junk. 300K, 400K, 500K miles? Whatever amount. The battery pack replacement cost is far higher then the fuel savings over 200,000 miles thus making it a far higher TCO from its initial purchase to the time I give it away as a donation in my almost all hwy use.
___As for pollution, the 04 Prius outputs ~ 20% less CO2 over those 200,000 miles then the Corolla and I don’t have a number on HC and NOx. The Corolla is a ULEV based automobile however ... I think I will stick with the $6,000 + in my pocket over those 200,000 miles. If you were to consider lowering your own pollution output, you might consider getting rid of everything but the Prius and purchase a PZEV based Ford Focus for your other driving needs.
___As has been mentioned in the past, the 04 Prius will never pay for itself in fuel consumption alone in comparison to an 03/04 Corolla nor does it have the size or comfort of the Camry. Until its initial costs come down, you aren’t going to see it sold in similar numbers as the Camry/Corolla anytime in the near future IMHO.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
> or a luxury car.
They are intentionally trying to establish a new category of vehicle.
So no matter how hard you try, it won't fit into the old definitions.
JOHN
with an automatic transmission, especially one with
an eCVT like the Prius, since even if the engine
RPMs are high there's nothing that you can do about
it. I understand that a tachometer is needed in a
manual transmission automobile to know when to
shift.
unfortuantely, my 2004 Prius is still in transit,
and I have not taken delivery yet. it was supposed
to arrive at the port of NY today.
my understanding of the tire pressure monitor on
the 2004 Prius is that it is similar to that on the
Sienna. I think that's a rotationally-based one.
There's some procedure to change the computer settings
should you change your tires. I think it only warns you if
you're dangerously under pressure - it's still best to check it yourself often.
I also understand that in a few years all cars sold
in the US are supposed to come with tire pressure
monitors of some form...
compared to the Prius is the California-only PZEV
engined one...
At least then the emissions are at about the same
level.
It's usually difficult to put a dollar amount on
the price of clean air, and fewer respiratory disease flare-ups.
(MPG is directly related to the amount of greenhouse
gas forming compounds released from the vehicle, but
has nothing to do with the emissions rating which
is based on the amount of smog-forming compounds
released from the vehicle.)
This is exactly how I'd want the options in a car to be. I'd definitely pay for stuff that's convenient such as smart entry/start, bluetooth, navigation, etc. However, I wouldn't be willing to pay much more for power seats or leather. I mean, how many times do you really need to adjust your seat?? I guess if you have multiple people driving the car, but even so, doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I'm glad that I can have the hi-tech options that are normally found on a luxury car without having to pay for all that other stuff that's normally found on a luxury car (such as leather and power seats). I'm sure if I feel this way, some others must feel the same. Doesn't mean this will be desireable for a majority of consumers however.
How come people on here are not willing to state what they paid, and what they got for their last gen Prius trade (was it really that bad??)? I've heard pricing in the upper $20k's out the door for the new Prius...is that right?
> but with better gas mileage?
Toyota wants to increase market-share.
Simply pushing more of the same configuration of vehicle won't accomplish that. But offering different configurations IN ADDITION TO the current ones (which will be available as both traditional & hybrid) will.
Greater selection means there's a greater chance of matching consumer desires. That's something the competition can't compete with, hence a gain for Toyota.
To achieve their 5% increase goal in 10 years (by 2012), more than just adding hybrid guts is needed... especially when the appeal for traditional drops.
JOHN
Only seen from the SHORT-TERM perspective.
In reality, you'll get those popular options... just not in the current hybrid and just not yet.
If you want the options that are available in a Camry, then you buy the hybrid version of a Camry... which will be available in the LONG-TERM.
JOHN
> will be obsolete.
How? HSD will be used in *BOTH* vehicles.
JOHN