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You're on a roll with that name and heritage thing. Why not take it even further? Perhaps your marketing folks can come up with a catchy advertising theme....like...bring back the guy who designed the 1936 Zephyr in ghost form in fuzzy images with cool, modern lighting, overlooking the shoulders of the current designers of the 2006 model, and have having him making suggestions and comments. Yeah...that's the ticket...that'll get the pulses zooming of the 30-something entry-level luxury buyer!
I hate the thoughts that Lincoln is ok with becoming competition for Buick though....especially with what Buick has now become.
Just another reason to push Cadillac upwards, so GM doesn't have as many brands competing in the same field price wise... (Pontiac, Saturn, Chevy). Saab already has a clear path (copies of Subaru's), Suzuki (rebadged Daewoos), Isuzu (on ICU), etc.
Ford has better direction/plans for their brands. While it's fuzzy sometimes (because as previously mentioned)... each time a new management comes in, new ideas come up. Therefore, plans are altered. And let's take an example of how Ford has been able to keep each brand distictive. Volvo, Jaguar, LandRover, AstonMartin.... Unlike GM who's coming up with Saabaru, Isulet, and Suzuwoo.
Ford has better plans for Lincoln now, than they did 2 years ago... And it'll continue with the introduction of 5 more vehicles within the next 3 years. Just takes time....
ANT14, again, I agree that GM is lost somewhere in the wilderness. No direction. No passion. Way too big for their own good. Cut three divisions (1. Saturn, a joke anyways, and a bad one at that; 2. Pontiac, badge engineering at its very worst; 3. Chevy/GMC truck, few real differences any longer) and simplify the profile. Witness Toyota (Scion on the bottom, Toyota doing the bulk of the work, Lexus the premium brand), where from only three divisions they manage to offer five SUV's and two trucks, as well as all the cars and hybrids you can eat. And they rock like no tomorrow. Hey, I'm not making the story up...the marketplace does.
Sorry, I don't want to get too far off the track there. Let's get back to this particular Lincoln Zephyr concept. Somewhere in this thread, you'll note that one gentleman said his wife finds the FWD to be an advantage -- and that's great! Remember, FWD hasn't made it in this auto-world because no one buys it. To the contrary...people buy tons of FWD vehicles, and many of the offerings out there are very fine machines. However, if Lincoln wants the Zephyr to be a hit, they're keenly aware that in this league, perception is reality, and reality demands RWD at best, or AWD at minimum. And please, let's credit Ford for realizing this and doing something about it -- at least in concept form. Production trim may be entirely a different thing, so as ANT14 pointed out a while back, let the collective auto world hold their breath until the car debuts, then feel free to judge. Or as I like to say, "Let the people judge, and they will." People vote w/ their dollars. They're the only ones who matter in this vote, and Lincoln hopes that my personal demographic is in that crosshair.
Lincoln, I say, nice conept, finely executed. Period.
I guess survival of the brand is first, then refinement of the mission can come second. Not sure if there's a sedan in there for me or not yet - we'll have to see what the next Town Car or equivalent becomes.
Not all AWD systems are the same, and depending upon the system, it can magnify or delute the particular vehicles potential. European Ford Mondeo is a good example...A FWD vehicle. It's platform cousin the Jag X-type utilizes permanent AWD with RWD bias, which allows this original FWD platform, to perform as a RWD/AWD performer.
As for Lincoln much will depending upon the AWD system they'll use. (All are vastly different from one another)... If Ford decides to use a permanent AWD system without the fuel penalties, then it'll be better than RWD, while allowing them to use an already safe/known platform...
Here's an interesting tidbit, Ford produces the highest number of RWD vehicles in the world. Ford produces the highest number of 4x4/AWD vehicles, in the world.
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0407/21/c01-218505.htm
I can tell you that before I buy a domestic luxury car, the perceived quality (the quality of the switches, and leather etc.) inside the car is going to have to be top-notch- Audi-like, let's say. If there isn't a reason for me to switch to domestics, I'm not, and neither will any of my friends. I like the outside of the car, but the inside isn't a kind of retro I find cool. Retro is fine for clothes that wear out after a year but it gets old fast. I might like it for a week but I would never buy it for every day use.
Also, there are a lot of cars in the $30K range which now are players that I would consider. For example, Passat TDI which gets 38 miles to the gallon highway (which I wouldn't have even considered a few years ago- gas mileage meant nothing to me then) or the new Subaru Legacy- these are all in the 30K range and offer a unique package which differentiates you from everyone else. All of these will be competing against Lincoln's Z-car.
One last word- if corporate would let you build a wagon, do it. I think there is a market for an upscale wagon- many of my buddies are now driving outbacks but are moving upscale now.
WRX, that's interesting because that's a common complain I have dealt with... VW/Audi (by survey and research) has the highest "perceived quality" numbers in the industry.... YET, their reliability is almost Kia like. And for the past couple of years, it has allowed them to bring in quite a bit of buyers.
Personally, I had 12 friends who had everything from Passat's to Jetta's, Toureg's, etc... EACH and everyone has, had major issues with them, and have moved on to other brands altogether. Yet, they all stated the same thing... "beautifully crafted materials, textures and presentation"...but like I would tell them (after arguing I was NOT taking the car in to the dealership to have another fight) it's the engineering that counts....
Ironically, flash fast forward a few years.. Same guy who designed for Vw/Audi (J Mays) is now working for Ford. Therefore many of Ford's interiors have received praised because of the great quality of materials and textures implemented. F-150, Expy, Navi, or some examples that have debuted. The Ford 500/Freestyle/Montego will be the next crop that has yet to be judged by the media. Ford has publically stated years ago they will spend 3 times more, on the interior finishing on cars, and we are seeing that now.
Have you seen some interior pics of the Zephyr yet ?
Love the interior design and looks - but also looks like a really high cowl. That would be a deal breaker for me.
The outside mirrors seems very small (Cadillac-like), or maybe I don't have a very clear photo. I like the bigger mirrors like those of the Lexus and Acura.
My personal opinion that the steering wheel might not be very comfortable, but it's very nice, though.
It's a good thing that the photos are released soon enough for consumers to comment, so Lincoln will know what to improve. So folks, voice your opinion! (Unlike Toyota and especially Honda, most of the time they release information on a new vehicle about 2 months before releasing the product itself).
http://www.seriouswheels.com/top-2006-Lincoln-Zephyr.htm
What platform was used for the concept?
How much of the interior chrome will remain in production?
The beachwood is nice but a shade too light.
Side question, does Ford have plans to rework the CrownVic into a sleeker more modern design.
The platform is CD3, which is shared with the upcoming Fusion and Milan, derived from the Mazda6 platform.
Interior trimmings, might be a bit toned down. Chrome while looking nice for some, can constantly cause the sun to shine in your face/eyes, therefore it's tricky to play with it in trim pieces. The actual shape/console etc. will pretty much stay the same, the final trimmings haven't been finalized. Quality control is currently taking place, so if replacing one material, with another to make it feel more solid is needed, so it'll be.
Crown Vic might die at the end of the decade. One last reworking will take place in a few years. If sales continue to fall (as expected), and just be able to serve livery/rental/taxi/police fleets, and a business case isn't justifiable, it might be phased out at that time, but that yet as it be decided.
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=18048
Please! Perish the thought!! Lincoln competing with Buick makes me ill, but with Pontiac? That will drive me out of my bird for sure.....
In my opinion, Buick, the brand and it's customer's will follow Oldsmobile... R.I.P. But GM is really counting on Buick taking Cadillac's spot. From the auto shows I've seen lately, I see it happening much quicker than anticipated.
The seats on the Mountaineer are also softer, and easier to get into than the Explorer. This was made to allow easier ingress for women. Various things were tuned differently, since the vehicle is designed to appeal more to women and make it a bit less truck like.
1. Will it perform like the LS in driving stability/cornering ("the LS smile" factor)?
2. How much legroom is there in the back seat? Is it similar to S Type or LS ?
3. Is this car on same platform as the 500 or Montego? What is the difference besides luxury?
4. Will it have cooled seats in addition to heated seats?
5. Will it have rain sensing wipers like the Jag and LS?
6. Will I really notice much difference in power vs my 8 cyl. Jag S (note: I am not a "racer")?
I want to come back to Lincoln; the Jag $400 oil changes and expensive parts are killing me. I assume this Lincoln will be more reasonable in this respect??
Thanks!
1) Yes, it will almost be as similar. If you've ever test driven a Mazda6, you will notice that even if it's FWD, it doesn't have the deep nose-end plow most FWD vehicles have. The 500 also does this as well, without FWD front-end drama.
Compared to the LS, I would say you might not be as involved as the LS is... For example, when I wish to do a U-Turn on a tight street(and it's wet) I turn off Stability Control system, turn the wheel fully, then after a car has passed on the opposite direction, I slam the gas hard, then let go... That's a trick you can do with RWD on the LS (don't try this at home, if you overdo it, you could be doing a 360 instead).
With RWD your able to stabilize the vehicle, thru sharp turns by gradually accelerating (sometimes stability control will kill this for you AHEAD of time, but for those brave souls that override it).
The Zephyr will have AWD made available soon after introduction which I prefer over FWD as well. Again, this is only for hardcore driver's, 95% might not even know what's driving their vehicle.
2) Legroom wise, your looking at almost similar dimensions. Mainly because the flexible platform makes best use of the structure, and allows for good dimensions in a trimmer (compared to rivals) package. The 500 and Focus, both shows us this example well.
3) The platform is penned CD3, which is derived from the Mazda6 JV platform. Although it'll be bigger than the Mazda6, and being it's flexible, engineers are able to widen, lengthen it, without issues. The Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan will also share this similar platform.
Differences will be the Lincoln versions will be more luxuriously appointed, have more toys than the F/M versions. Best example, what the Camry is to the ES330 and it's pretty much the concept your looking at.
4) Most possibly it will have cooled and heated seats. All depends on the suppliers, option packages, what the consumer clients say they want, etc. But common sense shows us that it's a high probability since most Lincoln vehicles have it.
5) Same as above, not sure yet... It hasn't been an item everyone has been crazy over, so it's still up in the air.
6) Power wise, there's no denying that a V8 will usually have more low torque that might enduce some grins. But as with the Ford 500, even if it has just 200HP, it can outperform Chrysler 300's 3.5L with 250HP and Avalon's 210HP. This is done with a 6 speed automatic that's geared to take full advantage of the engines power at all levels of the RPM range.
The standard engine (for awhile) will be the 3.0L DOHC Duratec, but as in the S-type and LS, it'll be tweaked to produce more power, over it's more economical cousins.
Lincolns maintenence is quite reasonable considering other luxury brands. Although I wasn't aware the S-type maintenence can be THAT expensive. Then again, I go 10K+ miles without changing oil or anything, but again... Don't try this at home, and I usually expire the warranty within the first year anyways.
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2006/2006-Lincoln-Zephyr-Dash-1- 600x1200.jpg
I do agree however, that the 6sp makes the best of the situation, obviously.
~alpha
~alpha
What the Hell is Ford on? Replacing their bread and butter cars in every model line with a rebadged, slightly reworked Mazda? Especially Lincoln- that marque used to mean quality and luxury, now their sales are fading away and they are introducing rebadged Mazda 6's and F150's! Well Ford has made their bed- now they will have to lie in it. Who on Earth would buy a rebadged Mazda 6 over a 3 series, CTS, or G35? Who?
Are you serious? Don't get me wrong, even for someone who thinks Toyota is the most over-rated product under the Sun, I can say that the Avalon is a very decent car. But it is not made for performance, and it's about as much fun as watching Public Access Television. It might have an advantage over the Five Hundred, but a 300 Touring? I doubt it.
And whether or not independent testing has a different outcome or not, I also would rather go with that. Whoever said magazines like Motor Trend are influenced by advertising dollars hit the nail on the head.
Mark8 = Tbird/Cougar
Continental = Taurus
Town Car = CrownVic/Grand Marquis
Recently...
Navigator = Expedition
Aviator = Explorer/Mountaineer (next one won't be)
And it's the same formula that has worked with other automakers....
Infiniti
G20 = Primera (euro)
I30 = Maxima
QX4 = Pathfinder
QX56 = Armada
Lexus
ES330 = Camry
LX470 = Land Cruiser
GX470 = 4Runner
RX330 = Highlander
I can go on and on, and I'm missing a few in there, but you get the idea.
The platform might be the same, but it'll drive very differently from the Mazda6. That's just it's starting point, doesn't mean it'll be a rebadged twin either.
It'll be as different, as the Focus, Mazda3 and Volvo S40 triplets are. And you have test driven each one, you will see they vary within each other in driving feel.
Of course BMW and MB don't share - they have no "parent companies" to share platforms with! They are both luxury brands on their own.
But most other brands do share.
Update: No, it seems it was deleted for a partially censored swear.
Here's the edited post:
ANT14,
I am well aware that platform sharing- even among luxury brands is nothing new. But to base an expensive Lincoln sports sedan on a cheap underwhelming import? Okay, the Mazda 6 may be built domestically but you get the idea. The previous rebadged Mazdas had a questionable reliability record at best. The Probe is a prime example. Then again, so is so much of the crap Ford is trying to sell these days. The only reliable car they make is very likely the Crown Victoria, which is big, and seriously dated. It doesn't even have Rack and Pinion steering! What is Bill Ford snorting? It must be some powerful stuff if he expects people to choose the Zephyr over it's competition without a serious price advantage. Though the exterior design does look attractive...
Second, The Mazda6 got excellent reviews everywhere for ride and handling, though not for reliability (in contrast to the Mazda3 which have excellent reliability), and reliability is nothing related to platform, just other electronics.
Do you think that if (Bill) Ford will built a new platform from scratch will be better than the Mazda6? So far Ford had mostly platforms that was not to the liking of most reviewers... Maybe if they would had the cash Toyota have, to sell that many cars for actual customers (not rental or fleets) and without those huge rebates, you can expect one from Ford.
But so far, it's much cheaper to copy platforms, as they did with the 500 and Montego now which shares the platform with Volvo (FWD as well as AWD), and the new cars and minivans will be shared with the EXCELLENT RATED Mazda6. (Note that I just said excellent rated, b/c I've driven the Mazda6 my self and was not particular impressed).
Add to that what ANT14 said above, that the actual car can feel totally different than the platform shared vehicle, it could make a difference.
I myself always questioned the way people look on vehicle platform. Some people actually believe that some platform are bad, and will not look on the car anymore, but mostly they find surprises. For example, the new Buick LaCrosse sits on an old dated platform, and all forecast on this car was that it will be very outdated - but now everybody is impressed with the platform. And so is with the GM vans. I'm sure if you tell people that a car sits on a Lexus or MB platform, everybody would get the car.
I think that manufacturers should hide (if possible) the platform their cars is built unto, and customers would have no clue whether it's a platform they believe it's good or not. Hence, the Ford 500 sells better than expected due to sharing a Volvo platform.
So take it in your mind: A Platform means very little to the actual car. It can be tweaked in so many ways, that you can turn a plush Buick into a sports car... Well, almost.
My understanding however, is that all 4 cars share a great deal of parts. Correct me if I am wrong, that may very well be the case. I was assuming the transmission would be a Mazda product, and they are usually rather troublesome.
I think the people should expect Ford to develop their own platforms, at least for their major divisions. They don't have enough money because of greed. They cancelled the cars that provided too much for the money, and replaced them with cars that were cheap to make but appealing enough to consumers to sell at a big markup. Now that those cars have a proven record of being pieces of junk they are in a sticky situation. But they made their bed, and they shall now have to lie in it.
I am just saying that sharing platforms among similar segments is perfectly okay, but what they are trying to do is make a grand piano with a cheap keyboard.
Ford is choosing the Mazda6 platform (codenamed) CD3, because as Samnoe stated, it's regarded as one of the best flexible platforms out there. From this platform, 10 vehicles will be spawned. Everything from the new generation of minivans and SUV's, to a few different sedans that will span different brands within Ford.
I dislike FWD sedan, but was very impressed with the engineering, sophistication and flexibility of that platform. There's no need to use any other platform other than the D3 platform (Volvo's P2).
Ford has made much more money on the platform of the CV, GM, TC, than pretty much any other vehicle in recent time. That is the companies cash cow since the tooling and engineering have been paid off. Some of the platforms that were VERY sophisticated, yet expensive to produce have been the DEW98 (which is now being used Exlusively for Jaguar, sans Lincoln LS and Tbird), and the MN (90-98 Tbird, Cougar, Mark8).
You can take a simple platform that's flexible and alter/improve it so much, that it's quite different than it's predessesor. And I've spoken about this in another forum which someone mentioned how the Camry (last time it was refreshened, was totally new) and it's really just a carry over, but much improved. Unfortunately there's no legal guidelines that state "Well, after you change a platform 30%, you must classify it as totally new"... as an example.
If such a guideline were implemented, the 500/Montego would receive a totally different desgination (apart than Volvo's) as well as the new CD3 (Mazda6 based) sedans.
Platform sharing also doesn't mean your taking a $12K Focus platform, and dressing it into a $30K Volvo S40. It just means there's a $20-25K quality platform, that will require them to build MANY $15K Focus', for it to become profittable. And that's a good thing, because it allows them to stay focused (pun intended) and continue to improve the platform and vehicle, so the upper sedans based on the same platform, are improved too.
This isn't the detroit of 10 years ago, things have drastically changed in regards to engineering.