Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Most popular vehicles
Popular New Cars
- New Acura MDX
- New Acura RDX
- New Audi Q5
- New BMW 3 Series
- New BMW X3
- New Buick Enclave
- New Cadillac Escalade
- New Chevrolet Equinox
- New Chrysler 300
- New Dodge Challenger
- New Ford Edge
- New Ford Escape
- New Ford Expedition
- New Ford Explorer
- New Ford F-150
- New Ford Focus
- New Ford Mustang
- New Honda Accord
- New Honda Civic
- New Honda CR-V
- New Honda Fit
- New Honda Odyssey
- New Honda Pilot
- New Hyundai Elantra
- New Hyundai Santa Fe
- New Hyundai Sonata
- New Hyundai Tucson
- New Jeep Compass
- New Jeep Grand Cherokee
- New Jeep Wrangler
- New Mazda 3
- New Mazda 6
- New Mazda CX-5
- New Nissan Altima
- New Nissan Maxima
- New Nissan Rogue
- New Porsche Cayenne
- New Ram 1500
- New Subaru Crosstrek
- New Subaru Forester
- New Subaru Impreza
- New Subaru Outback
- New Tesla Model S
- New Tesla Model X
- New Toyota 4Runner
- New Toyota Camry
- New Toyota Corolla
- New Toyota Highlander
- New Toyota Prius
- New Toyota RAV4
- New Toyota Sienna
- New Toyota Tacoma
- New Volkswagen Jetta
- New Volvo XC60
- New Volvo XC90
Popular Used Sedans
- Used BMW 5 Series
- Used Chevrolet Impala
- Used Chevrolet Malibu
- Used Chrysler 200
- Used Dodge Charger
- Used Ford Fusion
- Used Ford Taurus
- Used Honda Accord
- Used Honda Civic
- Used Hyundai Elantra
- Used Hyundai Sonata
- Used Tesla Model S
- Used Toyota Camry
- Used Toyota Corolla
- Used Volkswagen Jetta
Popular Used SUVs
- Used Acura MDX
- Used Acura RDX
- Used Ford Edge
- Used Ford Explorer
- Used Honda CR-V
- Used Honda Pilot
- Used Hyundai Santa Fe
- Used Jeep Compass
- Used Lincoln Navigator
- Used Mazda CX-5
- Used Nissan Rogue
- Used Subaru Crosstrek
- Used Subaru Forester
- Used Tesla Model X
- Used Volvo XC90
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
They might be doing that in Europe, but there's no need to do it here in the USA.... Consider the 5-series is always right at the top (with the E-class) every month in sales, BMW doesn't need to compensate dealers here.
Thank you Chris Bangle for one heck of a great coaching job.
Come on... Why do you have to diss BMW like that? (USC loooooooooses!)
I would love to see that dvd. Do you think they have it at a dealership?
Great news about the pricing, that will hopefully be my wife's next ride. Little less than 3 years to go on her FX35
{which has been a great car BTW} I hope that pricing holds up when it's actually releasd.
Viva La Audi
PS If ya don't drive one, you'll never know.....
Hmmm, can't take much of an issue with that statement. ;-)
I am now almost a year since the lease ended on my last LPS (2002 530i 5-Speed manual), and while I prefer LPS style of cars, I've sort of come to the conclusion that my next ride would not be an LPS, it would instead be the hot little A3 2.0T SP 6-Speed. So, from a bona fide LPS to a potential mini sport wagon? Score 1 for my fickleness.
Then I found out that Audi has inexplicably decided to make Xenon headlights and the Convenience Package (required before you can order the Bluetooth Package) mutually exclusive. I cannot for the life of me understand that move. :confuse: Since I've been sitting on the sidelines wondering what to do about the A3, I've had lots of time to consider other cars. Recently I've been hearing rumors of a new Dodge Challenger and last night I saw a number of pictures and read the specs of the new 2007 Hemi Challenger (as in 6.1 liter 425 horse Hemi) and noticed that it will not only be RWD, and not only monster V8 powered, but it will also come with a 6-Speed manual transmission (and that stupid pistol grip shifter which I didn't like it in my 1970 Challenger and I still don't like it) with three honest to God pedals under the dash.
Given just how incredibly tasty that new Challenger looks, I may find myself swinging all of the way from very fine German road cars to a testosterone infused American Pony car. Score several more for my fickleness. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
The Prodigal Son has returned! Welcome home, son! :P
I've seen those pics of the orange Challenger and I must admit, it looks pretty sweet. A 6.1L V8 Hemi... *insert drool smiley here*. If DC does it right and keeps true to the word on the Net, then it may indeed surprise a few people.
Too bad they won't let it be stronger than their beloved Viper.
-Paul
Funny you should mention that. I think that I saw on http://www.allpar.com last night that they were indeed considering an optional 500 HP mill. Yikes!
Best Regards,
Shipo
Wonder if Z06 owners are going to start wondering about that car yet?
-Paul
A new STS, "$11 down and $11 a month, and if you don't have the $11 we'll loan it to you. Cash's CadillacTown just a mental-block and a bridge from downtown Porkopolis; bring the kids, bring your family, bring your mother-in-law to Cash's Big Cadillac Bargain Barn, where you save cash with Cash!"
Sheesh!
My buddy's BMW X5 turned 49,500 today -- had it for 3 years (and he bought it.) His wife says, "it's too small, time to trade. . ."
I know some of you folks here in LPS land are cash buyers, but with lease deals this heavily subvented, it is really getting hard to feel good about personally taking on the depreciation hit and with these ludicrously low money factors, buying seems to be exactly what THEY hope you don't go for.
I need to read the fine print, but it looks like my car today could be had for about the same lease payment as I got in June 2005 -- but the term would be 24 months NOT 36.
Hard to turn these kind of deals down -- perhaps they "make it up in volume."
:confuse:
5-series 45,610
E-class 45,104
GS 31,008
STS 28,600 (est)
M 23,685
A6 15,601
RL 14,789
Infiniti was hoping to sell 24,000 Ms annually - the fact that they did it 10 months means they were a little conservative in their estimates and might increase production - dealer inventories are still lean around these parts. Lexus wanted to sell 36,000 GSs annually so they are right on target - however GS sales have a history of tapering off big time.
March-December sales were almost identical. The impressive thing about E-Class sales is that MB doesn't subsidize their lease programs to move cars like BMW does. So either more people are buying E-Classes than 5-series or they are willing to pay more for the monthly lease payment. In either case quite impressive given MBs well documented quality issues plus their less than stellar comparison results.
Maybe there are two camps of owners - those who love their MB and wouldn't consider another brand or those who have had problems and will never own another MB again. The latter group is much smaller than the former but much more vocal. Unfortunately I'm (and many of my friends) in the second camp but still like MB designs.
My main point re hybrids is illustrated by another poster who said that "hybrids represent a lifestyle statement, not something that saves resources." I completely agree. But that isn't any different than why ANYone buys ANY vehicle. EVery SUV purchased in a lifestyle statement. Every mustang purchased is a lifestyle statement. Every CAMRY is a lifestyle statement. (OK, maybe 25% of vehicle purchases are not lifestyle statement.) It is not fair to hold hybrid buyers to a different standard than we hold non-hybrid buyers to. People buy cars for many many different reasons. Some people buy cars because of the SEAT!!! Or the COLOR. Or the TV campaign. Very few people make a car-buing decision on only one factor. Hybrid buyers are no different.
Now, I admit that most hybrid owners, when you say "why'd you buy your hybrid?" will ALL say, "Oh, the mpg is great." But when you push them, they get real geeky and start talking about gauges, and how it's so quiet, and all sorts of stuff that most of us don't care about.
How do you think all YOUR car purchases would hold up if we only evaluated them based on ONE Factor? People buy cars for a NUMBER of reasons. Efficiency is NOT the only reason one buys a hybrid. Just as "great 0-60" time is not the only reason a person buys a particular sports car.
That said, my comment was not so much about emissions, which hybrids obviously generate. Any gasoline engine will. THAT is a fact. Emissions, or lack thereof, are important to consider.
My initial comments were more about the left overs/consumables that are taken out of the hybrid when batteries are recycled. How much do those batteries weigh? I honestly don't know how much is reusable and how much ends up in a dump/cannister/whatever. I admit that. Please enlighten us on how much of the battery packs are recycled and how much is left in the dump/cannister/whatever. References would be appreciated as well. Please dispell that red herring.
As an aside, how do emissions ratings compare for a vehicle like a Prius to a SULEV vehicle?
As for safety, in the absense of personal experience, yes I do look at crash data from multiple sources and from multiple impact points, just as you do. I applaud your driving record if you have little or no personal experience with accidents and resulting injuries. But when a family member survives an 80+ mph crash and WALKS away with NO scratches, no bruises, no soreness, and no cabin intrusion, that will leave a serious impression in your mind.
THAT is the personal observation/experience to which I was referring.
Hybrids are not a bad thing, but they aren't the holy grail of automotive perfection either. I will again say hybrids and current gas power-engines are not the long-term answer as they consume essentially non-renewable resources. Renewable energy sources may be the way of the future and will hopefully have less harmful emissions such as water favor or french fry-smelling exhaust.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
-Paul
The LPS cars as a group often are the laboratories or first to market with cool and new features and technologies. Hybrid I assume is one LPS feature or technology and as such it probably deserves to be brought to market in the LPS car class.
Other, some might say, easier to justify (some might not) features and technologies, too, seem at first blush to make sense (to me at least) yet they are not apparently as cool or whatever and therefore they seem to be put on the back burner.
I am thinking the articles I read that "argued" not so much AGAINST hybrids as FOR diesels coupled to CVT transmissions were in the "op ed" pieces in Car and Drive and Motor Trend and the "what's up" sections of Popular Science and / or Popular Mechanics (I read so many magazines over the Christmas holiday, they have blurred into one.) After reading a "look what can be done with diesels (and it was largely lauding their talents as could be applied to PERFORMANCE cars) article in one followed by a "the economic case against hybrids" (which did suggest there was at least in the near term no ecological negative) in another, it just got me to thinking as I watched endless Ford (and other) commercials chest pounding about the hundreds of millions of dollars that would be spent on hybrids as if hybrids (alone) were THE holy grail.
Nary a nod to the diesel supporters who don't have to make a case for the future or rely on tax incentives to explain and persuade.
Hate to use the "fair and balanced" phrase since the Ford communications were MARKETING, but are all the folks who write and contribute in the magazines (for instance) that I noted all wack-o's with ideas that don't merit insertion into our current topics table of contents?
Unless those folks who write with such great passion about the "hot rod" (performance) allure of diesels (and Oh By The Way they add, you get better economy too) are spouting nonsense and gibberish, it seems we are being told in and by the "mainstream" media that hybrids are "it" without even giving a nod to other apparently viable alternatives (that seem to make more sense financially.)
We need a multi pronged approach to alternative "motivation" for our vehicles. LPS cars would be THE logical place to begin bringing these new technologies to market.
In 1985 my friend got a new BMW it had a wonderful and new technology in it -- it was called ABS. It is my belief that virtually all new cars no matter how tiny their MSRP's now have this. It rarely, if ever, works the other way around -- dual airbags seemed to be first in the LPS crowd, now its stability and lane departure systems and Xenon and bi-xenon and who knows what's next quad-xenon, etc. These new convenience, fun, safety, performance and lux oriented "features and content" often are accompanied by technologies that improve reliability and economy; then they trickle down.
Hopefully, we can be informed and edumacated to the alternatives in addition to hybrids is the whole thesis from my perspective.
Putting them in LPS cars is my subtext. :shades:
It really is out of place here.
Thank you for your consideration!
Dids you mean my use of the word "pinhead?" That is his/her screen name. I didn't mean it as a term of derision.
by pat HOST Jan 05, 2006 (12:45 pm)
er...I guess you are forgetting about the Lexus GS350H ("H" is for Hybrid.)
agreed that the Prius and Civic don't belong here
whether the Accord Hybrid belongs here is a matter of interpretation
I still don't think your "personal experience" re surviving an accident is relevant. Even if you say "I survived a rollover in my F-150," that rollover is only ONE data point. Perhaps had the rollover occurred just a bit differently, you'd have been squashed like a bug.
But I agree with you that that is how most people make such decisions. A buddy of mine saw a friend's kid get T-Boned by a pickup. The kid was driving a Volvo. The Volvo got blasted, but the kid was fine. Shaken, but fine. My friend is now completely sold on Volvos. Can't talk to him about anything else.
I agree that hybrids aren't the Holy Grail. Problem is I can't wait for the Holy Grail, if there even is one. I have to drive a car TODAY. I may have to buy a car today. I can't wait and wait. Hybrids can help,. and they are cool, if you are into that sort of thing. Yeah, emissions might be better in a Civic. But if you don't like how the Civic FEELS.....
Again, it is not FAIR to hold environmentally-driven buyers to a higher standard than we hold "normal" buyers. If a guy buys a Prius just because he likes it, but he wants to justify his decision based on mpg, so what? Why do we spend time criticizing hybrid buyers, but not Mustang buyers? But not Charger buyers? What kind or fool buys a Charger? That's just as easy to say, maybe easier, than "What kind of fool buys a Prius?" Don't you think?
If a hybrid owner says "I bought my hybrid because it gets great mpg," then, sure, light into him about how much money he would have saved if he bought a Corolla. Hopefully he is smart enough to have more of an answer for you. But maybe not. I have one friend who owns a Prius and she really has no ability to persuade anyone. Then again, she DOES get to drive in the HOV lane, which is reason enough to buy one, depending on your commute.
Now, if you want to talk specifically about the Lexus GS hybrid, go ahead. The Accord definitely does not belong here.
And you need to check your email.
Hook 'Em (Do you think either BMW or Infiniti will add Burnt Orange to their color options
You (the collective, the Borg) seem tolerant that I bought almost the least popular LPS car discussed here. You seem to allow me to spend my $50+ large despite the almost certain lack of financial benefit when compared, say, with a $35K Chrysler 300C.
Ditto the hybrid dollars anyone may spend.
I do not think buying a $50K car is "easy" to justify -- but probably most of us do not convince ourselves we are buying "basic and competent" transportation.
If the list of cars remain LPS and we somehow began discussing them as if they were economy cars, I would think we were all a bit "off" -- that is to say in a difficult to defend position.
Likewise my friend's wife's sister bought a new Lexus SUV Hybrid (at first claiming it was for "fuel milage and cost" reasons.) Yet my friend's wife says that despite the tax break the money reasons and fuel reasons didn't compute. They love the hybrid cause it is "really quiet," sorta gets better mileage (but really has better peppiness more than longer time between fill ups or lower cost fill ups.)
Typical?
Beats me. The Today Show had several families drive from the west to the east in a HUGE SUV and an Accord Hybrid, etc. Of course the Hybrid won the daily cost of gas contest -- but it was pitted against a Lincoln Navigator.
I do not suspect this indicated there was a compelling gas saving reason to get the Hybrid Accord. More a confirmation that Navigator's use more gas to go from west to east.
All this is to support "your" right to buy any car at any price you want with your money. I don't even mind when "we" spend bytes and bytes explaining (rationalizing?) what we did.
The case for hybrids certainly exists at some level -- and so does the concept of a "bargain" or economical LPS car (at some level.)
What is in the pipeline, I wonder, for the next generation of LPS cars (2008?) since most of us here have 2005 or newer LPS cars and I assume there will be little change in them for at least a year or two.
I consider myself "trained" to spot differences, but I kid you not, my dealer had two A6's on the showroom floor and one of them had a big yellow sign in the window that said "I'm a 2005" -- without that sign the differences that could be seen even from behind the wheel of the not running samples were virtually impossible to detect.
What is next, then, for this group of cars that usually come out with the manufacturer's latest and greatest tech and new and hot content.
Interesting time to be buying and very interesting time to be speculating.
Since the Prius and Insight were around much longer than any other hybrid, I think most people tend to lump all hybrids into that "super-saver" catergory, and are then shocked when a 2-ton SUV with a 3.3L V6 cant get 50mpg like the Prius's 76hp atkinson cycle 4-cyl. Part of the problem I think may be Lexus' marketing of the 400h. They are advertising the fuel economy, (which really isnt much better than the 330). What they should be focusing on is that in terms of power, its reasonably comparable to the ML500, SRX V8, and Toureg V8, and it absolutely trounces those SUVs on fuel economy. Buying a 400h because of the extra mpg compared to a 330 doesnt make much sense.
That said the E hasn't done that bad in comparisons either. The last time out at C&D it came in higher than either BMW or Audi. Its hardly the loser some here try to imply because it doesn't ace the sports-sedan test.
M
M
Here goes.
I do not disagree with the statement that everyone isn't looking for the sportiest car in the segment. But I must -- on behalf of some of the other makes -- take umbrage that ONLY BMW and Infiniti would be able to sell well.
Much as I hate to say this, I took the comparison test between the STS w/Sport package and BMW 5 with standard suspension (and I was with a group of 3 other people, two of them folks I had never met.) The Cadillac was sportier in 12 tries around a closed course test track.
The Automobile Magazine test of the LPS cars ranked the A6 on top overall (and yes I know the Automobile test was one of the few that did NOT place the M at the top o' the class.)
I test drove the Mercedes and although I did find it less sporty than the BMW, it was still a very competent performer.
I can only comment on the Lexus and Acura based on what I have read (my Acura drive was in the TL, my Lexus GS rental was of the prior generation) -- the Lexus alone (in this group) seems to be ranked as the somewhat less sporty Japanese LPS, while even the Acura with the left handed compliments about it NOT having a "proper engine" (whatever that means) is certainly given some good marks for sportiness.
From testing, test driving, reading what we amateurs and the "pros" alike write, virtually all of these cars are on a continuum of sportiness.
In Germany, for instance, the A6 and 5 run neck and neck in sales (unlike here in the US) -- were there a huge performance difference, I would suspect to see more lopsided sales. The US sales may be in part a reflection of sportworthyness, but there does seem to be ample evidence from all kinds of sources that the differences are relatively subtle in everyday driving.
Audi for some time and now Infiniti more recently have been pushing their "dynamic" premium side, Mercedes (excluding the AMG) seems to push classic premium luxury, etc.
I am almost becoming convinced that we who buy these LPS cars are really buying LpS cars -- and until a breakdown of these cars with their optional SPORT packages could be made available, I suspect that I too have fallen into the category that de-emphasizes performance (this despite my only regret in the way I optioned my current A6 which was with the 18" wheels from the sport package but NOT the extra $250 sport suspension.)
My BMW dealer (my wife's) says sport packages are generally "sold" options, they don't regularly inventory these big tire, lower and stiffer versions for the fact that they "sit" rather than "sell."
The image is sport, the rubber hits the road however on luxury. Overall, then I do agree -- yet I felt it was perhaps somewhat of a slight to suggest that ONLY BMW and Infiniti can offer a sporty premium car. It would seem that only Lexus (based on the car magazine's reviews and opinions) can fill that slot, and even so, it is an imperfect fit.
That the A6 won that Automobile comparo only proves what I stated in my first post. Some people want a car that doesn't constantly remind them of how sporty it is and/or can be.
I drove the M45 Sport and I could see where some would tire of car that never puts the sporting badge away - ride, noise etc. For someone that likes this kinda tactile feedback, they've found their car.
I do think the A6 is sportier than the E-Class to a degree. BTW, Mercedes now offers a true sport package for the E-Class.
You did know that the A6 is like my second favorite in this class right?
M
I did feel the A6 over the M35X was still "more Germanic" (Doh!) and I think (hope) you take my meaning, get my drift, etc -- for I certainly know that one is from Japan and one from Germany. Yet, I felt the M35X at the time was the most German-like (within my choices -- and even though I remain impressed to a degree with the STS w/AWD and the luxury & sport packages, but NOT at $64K and at the time the V6 AWD was NOT on the market) next to the Audi.
I must add to not get into a "is not, is too" discussion the key TLA "IMO."
I was happily going down the path with the thought process that the M35X was a worthy entrant into the LPS ranks even though perhaps 18 months ago I would have said ONLY German cars need apply if the "P" is capitalized in LPS.
2005 has changed everything. I would not be regretting the acquisition of the M35X had the deal played out for that one to be the "higher perceived (by me) value."
The 2005/2006 versions of all of these cars (OK virtually all) are quite similar. Style, perhaps some content (but even that can be manipulated to be "so close" to each other) and perhaps personal, subjective, preferences are far more compelling this (2005 MY) and 2006 MYears. But to this day, I do not feel the A6 takes much of a back seat to the M35X in terms of sportiness.
Now, if there is a test of an A6 4.2 SLine vs an M45 w/sport (but I would contend the AWD would still sway me and since the A6 alone in these two offers AWD, well. . .) that certainly could demonstrate the M45's more sporting intentions. But, speaking as a majority of one, on the street the two cars would be both considered "sport-ING" and probably of similar composure and demeanor in normal "American" driving.
I'd also like to see a test between an Acura RL, BMW 530xi, Chrysler 300C AWD, a Cadillac V8 STS/AWD, the M35X and the Lexus also w/AWD -- and, of course, the aforementioned SLine 4.2 A6 (each with as many sport option boxes ticked off as possible, too.) Now THAT would be entertainment (but I'd wager few would be swayed, or as the saying goes, ". . .many would be called, but few would answer. . .", "Man" -- circa 1970.)
Yes I know the 6 cylinder versions might be at a power disadvantage but since at this time most of these guys DON'T offer AWD + V8 power, well we would have to let the chips fall where they may and just take the editor's remarks with our personal spins (intact, probably.)
To those currently shopping: "what a great time to be doing so." Drive it like you live. :shades:
QE2.
How do they expect me to get around over there?
I wonder if there is JD for the Infiniti and Lexus folks?
Yup, I can think of lots of less enjoyable types of trips. ;-)
The only fly in the ointment that I can think of is the whole driving on the wrong side of the road thing. I once drove a continental car in the U.K. and trust me, driving on the wrong side of the road is initially hard enough. Coupling that with having the steering wheel on the left side of the car simply compounds the issues. :-/
Best Regards,
Shipo
I have driven on the Autobahn between Ingolstadt and Garmish anyway -- WHAT A RUSH!
I've heard good things about the DC factory delivery, but more good things about Volvo's.
I've never heard of factory delivery for Japan.
Best Regards,
Shipo
P.S.
The BMW ED program is nothing to sneeze at either. ;-)
BMW takes Nissan Canada to court over the letter M
Nissan is benefitting from the high-end reputation carve out by BMW's M Series cars, something that will confuse purveyors of pricey automobilies, BMW argued in Ontario documents filed in August.
BMW does not object to Infinitis equipped with its trademarked M35 and M45 labels. But BMW objects to a Nissan advertising campaign that featured commercials carrying the tagline "the M is coming" and showing cars with the letter next to a smaller Nissan logo.
This behavior of BMW reeks with insecurity. I am kind of disappointed that BMW would behave in such a thin-skinned petty manner.
Interestingly I heard Nissan was considering legal action against VW because of their use of the letter Q for their new Audi SUVs.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I've heard that owners of M's, 6's, and 7's, get invitations to Spartanburg for a driving school centered around their new car. From what I've found, it includes a road drive in the twisties of the area, some track time, some skid pad time, and meals/lodging. Sounds pretty cool to me.
Going with LPS type cars, though these are paid for through the price of a car, it is cool to see automakers offering unique delivery options and events focussed on their vehicles. Helps with marketing big time!
-Paul
I imagine some flush German going into his Baden Baden Caddy dealer and saying, "Ich würde Detroit Lieferung bitte mögen" (approximately, "I would like Detroit Delivery, please.")
Ich spalte mich selbst auf ("I splam myself," literally -- "I crack myself up," approximately.)
:surprise: DOH!
BMW Performance Center Delivery
-Paul