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The Great Hybrid Battery Debate
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First, the battery connection is automatically terminated, stopping flow of high voltage.
Second, the Nimh batteries are non-toxic and non-hazardous.
Third, yes Nimh batteries are recyclable and Toyota has done this, I believe Honda has as well.
Upcoming batteries? Fuel Cell rings in my mind. Prius stands to benefit most from this.
Battery R&D is fast paced and very compeditive, especially these days.
I read the eBrochure from Toyota for the 06 model Prius. There are numerous errors in there, but THIS is not.
They claim that the traction battery will last at least 150,000 miles. This is contrary to what they've stated in the past. In the past, they said they expect it to last the life of the vehicle. Granted it would take me ten years to reach that 150k milestone, but I am wondering what the replacement cost, if needed would be. Granted this has been rehashed many times. If it is ~2k, I can live with that. Anything over that would be pushing it.
As we know now, all eyes in the automotive world are on Hybrids. If Toyota screws up and people have to start shelling out big bucks for batteries, you can kiss hybrids goodbye. Hopefully that will not be the case. Next few years should be interesting.
If the battery lasts 10 years and 150k miles that is not bad. If it only lasts 5 years and 150k miles that is a different story. I don't believe you will ever see a $2000 traction battery. Batteries are not and have not gone down in price while maintaining high quality. You can buy cheap batteries and that is what they are, junk. In the telecommunications business we are paying more now for industrial batteries than in the past. Unless someone comes up with a cheap material for batteries I think it will be the limiting factor for hybrids.
How about the IS250 with AWD? They are really small aren't they? The Prius would be huge along side the IS350.
It's aiming high, but batteries that charge faster, deliver more power for longer periods of time, cost less, and are safer to dispose of or easier to recycle would be the target.
I am in complete agreement. It seems each new battery technology is more expensive. NiMH is more costly than Lead Acid. Li-ion is more expensive than NiMH. Nicad was never considered for hybrids that I know of. A real break through is needed for a company like Toyota to make all their vehicles available as hybrids. They cannot keep up with the demand for parts with just 3 hybrid vehicles.
So they have the "parts issue" well in hand - they are just not "tipping their hand" to the public and thus to their competitors.
The Camry hybrid, being a 4-cyl, will be VASTLY popular, as long as they don't make it high end, which I feel that they will not do, because I think they learned from Honda's Accord Hybrid that the "high-end V6 family car hybrid" is not that appealing to enough people.
They will meet their battery and hybrid parts needs - they are TOYOTA, with 30+ billion DOLLARS in the bank !!! :shades:
Tell that to this Prius owner with his car in the shop for almost a month now waiting on parts.
billkmg, "Toyota Prius Software Problems" #611, 21 Nov 2005 8:44 pm
Means nothing at all in the context of what we are talking about.
http://www.the-best-source.com/Toyota/Toyota-PRIUS-Parts.html
http://www.drivewire.com/toyotaparts/2000-2003toyotaprius.html
http://www.partstrain.com/ShopByDepartment/Exhaust/TOYOTA/PRIUS
Gary... I think Toyota has a good game plan. I'd be more worried about GM and their big parts supplier (delphi) that is threatening to strike. It seems every day I am reading doom and gloom news regarding GM. Surprising coming from liberal press sources.
It means nothing if they give him a loaner for the whole time. From what I hear Toyota and Honda are not big on loaners. You should check your links more carefully. I just pulled up the first one and asked for a few common parts like for brakes and exhaust. They do not have any parts for the Prius. I guess it is back to waiting. You are a lot more patient than I would be. I would be screaming to the state attorney general if they did not have parts for a car that new. There are laws requiring the manufacturer to keep parts for a given vehicle for at least 7 years. I thought the Japanese had gotten better since the 1970s when you had to wait for parts. No improvement.
Not to worry. It is only Japanese dealers that do not have parts. They bought into the myth that their cars don't break.
You blame a lot on the techs. Maybe Toyota & the dealers should be giving them decent training on all this high tech stuff they are selling. I can tell you from experience electronics fail. I don't care how good they are supposed to be. We are getting crap electronics from the best manufacturers. Add to that lousy tech support. I feel sorry for the poor [non-permissible content removed] at the agency trying to fix a car that does not have any symptoms only sporadic failures. And it is not just Toyota or hybrids. It is industry wide, and will get worse as they try to cut costs.
Now back to batteries.....
I wonder how Toyota "bench tested" a battery and claimed it would last ~150,000 miles. Does it automatically just fail or diminish over time? Does it start to diminish around ~150k miles? Is the car still driveable with diminished battery capacity? I still think you're wrong about the battery cost. What will happen to the 100s of thousands of Toyota/Lexus hybrids when their batteries expire? Will people just junk them? I really am looking forward to this.
IS250 AWD... I requested a quote. FYI... 8" LESS legroom than a Prius. Only 13 cubic foot trunk. I still like it.
I would say time is a big enemy of batteries. However we have big lead acid batteries that are 20+ years old and still working good. As long as they do not get totally discharged and or overcharged they may last a long time. It sounds like Toyota will take them back. There has to be elements that are usable again. Freezing a discharged lead acid battery is certain destruction. Not sure about the other types.
And I agree that European electronics are not as reliable as American or Japanese. The problem is very little is actually made in the US or Japan. Look at a printed circuit board sometime. It includes half the countries in the world on the different components.
The needed breakthrough to make batteries cheaper is to use fewer cells but make them larger so that replacement of a failed 7.2v module could be accomplished with screw terminals which is not practical for the smaller modules currently used. Case in point - the 500W UPS which powers the servers in most companies will give 8 minutes of backup @ 110v yet runs off a 6 volt 11AH sealed lead acid.
Systemwise, with cars, it is more convenient (and of course cheaper) to utilize a storage voltage closer to that used by the motors. This removes the potential problem of moving electrical power back and forth from lower voltage storage systems and gives the problem to the battery guys who must now build a high voltage storage system to suit.
Time will tell on that decision. I am not blind to the fact that transforming 22kw will give issues not seen at the 500w level by the UPS designers. But should significant numbers of Prius II owners find themselves forking out $2000 or more because one tiny cell (in one particular module) out of 168 cells just went south, I for one will be going Hmmmm.
T2
It seems every day I am reading doom and gloom news regarding GM. Surprising coming from liberal press sources.
I'm not sure why you say the press sources are 'liberal." When's the last time you saw an editorial defending the unions in your paper? The press is far from "liberal." All we hear from the press is that companies are failing becuase of union costs. I'd hardly call that "liberal."
2) There is some concern regarding batteries and safety. Some go so far as to nix batteries (and hence hybrid vehicles) altogether, but this may be throwing out the baby with the bath water...
3) Replacing batteries, regardless of hybrid model, will not be cheap. But, then again, replacing the engine in a non-hybrid wouldn't be cheap, either.
4) Batteries store energy from braking (along with recharging). One of the big things of the hybrid is to be able to recapture this braking energy that otherwise would be lost.
5) There is further development regarding battery makeup, charge time, etc. that will make future hybrids more economical.
6) Some people are scared of batteries powering hybrids. They fear the toxic byproducts more than they appreciate the long-term benefits of such attempts at conservation.
7) Some people will not like electric cars, period!
the reason i am asking is that there are at least 15 sitting the state motor pool staging lot next to where i work. they have been there for a few weeks.
i'm sure it was part of using up the current budget (use it or lose it).
i would hate to have it cost the state more money to get them 'revived'.
googsie, "Toyota Prius Owners: Problems & Solutions" #409, 4 Dec 2005 5:24 pm
A leak in the high-voltage battery is potentially serious. Electrolyte's main component is potassium hydroxide, a potent base rated as a "high" health hazard by independent laboratories. One measure of the care Toyota tries to exercise over the Prius is the company's Emergency Response Guide, which has 23 pages of information distributed to emergency service personnel. Among other issues, a vehicle fire can emit toxic gases.
Prius fires
:confuse: I was wondering, will that new battery be adaptable for the older models? If so, that would be great! Does anyone know?
The Edrive calcars Prius + plugin hybrid uses a larger battery pack of Lithium batteries to get 100+ mpg.
Jim
Is this true ? my opinion is not all batteries would fail at once. What are you experience with battery changes.
Thanks,
Bob
if someone has an opinion on an issue and tells me "it is gonna be expensive," but they can't quote me an actual dollar amount, that is proof to me that they are simply biased and are blowing smoke. No credibility. (am not saying YOU have no cred, Bob. Just the guys who are spewing without giving facts)
Edmunds has very good search engines
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And the Original model Prius had a production cost of about $37,000. So what the heck does that have to do with the third generation now available?
A handful of Classic model Prius in North America have already exceeded 200,000 miles with same battery-pack they started with. So the worries steming from experiences with deep-discharge devices are proving to have absolutely no merit when it comes to a hybrid that prevents the deep-discharges.
In short, the need for replacement is unlikely.
Also note now the "full" hybrid systems routinely power their electric motors without even using the battery-pack. Electricity is generated for immediate use by the gas engine.
JOHN
"In short, the need for replacement is unlikely. "
This discussion can now finally come to an end, there we be no foreseeable battery replacement required. So the effective cost is ZERO DOLLARS $0.00
A Shifting Man,
MidCow
I think it is just starting. People are getting high mileage on their hybrids and the complexity is rearing it's ugly head.
Brentbridge posted:
139,000 miles- IMA light comes on. Honda says the battery is dying and needs to be replaced.
brentbridge, "Honda Civic Hybrid Owners: Problems & Solutions" #452, 18 Jan 2006 9:02 am