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It makes me think of the window closers which on all new LS vehicles, slow down at the end of a movement to reduce noise.
There was also this other article which suggested that the body panels are shaped in such a way to affect airflow, that the car can be compared to a 'giant noise-cancelling headset.' Not sure if this is hyperbole or not.
I would love to ride in the LS 600h L and LS 460 and see if I can hear the difference. Of course, to be truly accurate, I'd have to be blindfolded.
I think it would be very obvious, IMO.
My recent test drive of the LS430 revealed a little more noise than I had expected, given all the publicity about how quiet it is supposed to be. I'm not saying it wasn't pleasant, but it was not whisper quiet like I thought it would be.
Now the LS600hL on the other hand, I will bet the ranch, WILL be whisper quiet, almost silent, and the difference will be astounding.
Blindfold not necessary.
TagMan
On the flight back from Seattle to the Midwest this afternoon, I picked up a copy of Motor Trend at the Minneapolis Airport. I found the article on the LS quite complimentary on all aspects of the vehicle. This includes the driving dynamics as compared to the German cars. For example, it states, "By halfway up the mountain, the big sedan seems to shrink, and corner-entry speeds rise along with driver confidence. With excess confidence comes miscreant behavior that, if not encouraged, is at least condoned by this new LS."
I also read the Motor Trend article too--seems they beat Car & Driver and Road & Track to the punch here. I was pleasantly surprised by how complimentary the article was. It, like several other car reviews out there, concludes that the LS should give its competitors a run for the money. I was a bit surprised they let the drivers tear up the road around Eagle's Nest though; parts of that area, based on my travel experience, are pretty dangerous. But apparently they knew what they were doing--as we haven't heard of any wrecked test cars from the Salzburg event!
I don't quite see it that way, with regards to the current model, that is. The LS430 has some noises that I find a little bothersome at certain higher freeway speeds. Around town . . . no problem, but get up to serious speed and the irregularities in the freeway surface coupled with the wind noise at high speeds are noticeable enough.
The LS600hL, as I mentioned is being touted to be quite possibly the quietest car ever produced. Something therefore that none of us has ever experienced before. This is a dramatic difference, IMO, than the current car.
Different animals entirely.
TagMan
Although I wonder how the LS 600h will perform vs. the 600h L...?
im just here to ask for suggestions! I'm really interested in the new mercedes S600 but can anyone give me suggestions for which car i should get, the S600 or the LS 600hL? I currently own a 750 Li and I think that it is pretty noisy compared to my other Lexus i currently bought.So im very interested in Lexus because of the quietness in the cabin.
NOTHING.... It should easily take back the crown in 2007, and put even more distance to its nearest competitors by end of next year, in total sales. Add in the 600hL (April '07), AWD on MY2008 LS460 (Oct '07), and you'd see some serious sales for Lexus by year's end.
The question that remains is this: will this be 1989 all over again ? Time shall tell.
And it's a given IMO that the LS will retake its sales crown in the world's biggest luxury market, the US. IMO Lexus has got its formula down right--the US market is all but 'locked up' as a Lexus success (but never say never--keep at it!). The point of the New LS is to do more than 1989 in some ways--it's to expand Lexus globally. Of course, the ES is the trendsetter for Lexus is some countries such as South Korea, Taiwan, setting sales records in those nations...the LS is supposed to introduce Lexus to the rest of the world as a global luxury brand.
The LS 600hL is like the cherry on top--but it's a lot more than that. We'll have to wait and see if it can deliver, but I predict this will be one hot car...one that celebrities will want, and it will be in short supply. Of course, the LS 460 will do the heavy lifting, but the 460L, 600h, and 600hL will add to the overal LS series cachet. It's nice to say "LS series."
The S600 is a certainly a superb vehicle and I might suggest, as our HOST has indicated, that the HELM forum is the appropriate forum to discuss comparisons between these two (and other) vehicles in greater detail.
One member of the HELM forum just purchased an S600, so you can get some good feedback.
TagMan
But when the ICE is on, it isn't clear to me that it will be any quieter than the 460. It does have a different ICE, 5 liter instead of 4.6. Who knows whether that part will be quieter or noisier in the 600? And from an acoustical engineering perspective, do we really know that the non-ICE parts of the 600 will differ from the 460?
Terrific perspective and question. I've been wondering that myself. I'm going to bet that the engineers have gone the extra mile to add even more sound-isolation to the LS600hL, but that begs the questions . . . how? and why not in the 460?
The answer might be to distinguish this vehicle as even more exclusive. But . . . at this point . . . ????????
Interesting, indeed.
TagMan
TagMan
That having been said, I don’t know what all the fuss is about, especially the talk about “tomb-like” in a derogatory manner. As far as a pure luxury car is concerned, I want quiet. Leave the noise to the real sport sedans and especially the sports cars. However, there should be a certain amount of sound to enable the driver to keep in touch with the engine.
But in general with pure luxury cars, tomb-like quiet and womb-like comfort is better IMO.
As syswei astutely realized earlier, the LS600hL may change all that. The only connection to the engine may be intermittent (depending upon when the ICE is running), and with its unparalleled level of quiet, I think that there will be less feedback from the powertrain in the LS600hL than ever before on ANY car.
The driver of the LS600hL will need to feel the speed of the vehicle . . . which will likely be so incredibly smooth, it will be all too easy to get a speeding ticket.
TagMan
I would say “may” is an understatement. Hybrids change our perceptions and expectations in many ways, not only with regard to luxury but also with performance. As intrigued as I am about them, I can honestly say that I don’t know how I am going to react to them as a buyer. I can see myself either loving them, hating them or anything in between. If one of these cars fit my buying plan and preferences I would have no problem getting one based on the adventure alone. Too bad it’s probably going to be really tough to get a test drive in the 600hl for a while.
For the younger people, don't you ever have one of those days when you woke up in the morning and could not turn your body/head to the side? This condition maybe permanent for older people whom are the prime target audience for this vehicle.
As I understand, the self-parking feature only requires the drives to run it from the center console and therefore no need to twist and turn the upper body.
So I don't think this is gimmicky feature, but it is something that people can actually benefits from.
Smoking tires is not the Europhiles definition of performance that you refer to. Besides, most cars can smoke tires if you know how. But, yes, the performance is, of course, important.
BTW, wasn't it frequently you that underscored the greater importance of the LUXURY features of these cars, so why complain about the attention to the luxurious quiet ride? You would think you would be loving it.
Don't you also have a history of posting the irrelevance of "handling and driving dynamics" that the Europhiles spoke of? Now you are focused on it because it is a Lexus that might show some handling prowess.
If we want to focus on the luxury of "quiet", something the LS is good at, then I think we should be able to do so.
Also, consider that as the performance characteristics become more revealed with the increase in reviews and road tests, the commentary will increasingly shift to "performance".
TagMan
Why are you surprised? You know that sport driving characteristics are not a priority with most Lexus buyers. You seem to be one of the few who notice. Don’t forget, a lot of Lexus buyers are willing to purchase sight unseen. This isn’t going to happen if any Euro buyers are to be conquered. They will have to drive it.
Tell me something, TM, have you read the tidbits about the MT review of the new LS460 ? Do you find them credible ? I notice that others may wait for C&D or R&T before they'd accept that this new LS really has these attributes that the Europhiles moan about for years... Its about time we see and discuss OTHER facets of this car besides self-park, noise level, etc...
Yes, I am glad to see . . . actually VERY glad to see . . . some attention being paid to the driving dynamics of the LS. I just don't think any of us truly knows what they are yet. Do you really think the brakes are "grabby", for example?
When I form my final opinion on the LS460 you and all the others will know what it is, and why. I promise.
TagMan
You’re right. However there seems to be a trend developing with the press knocking the self park, just as there was with iDrive. Deal with it. The good news is that it’s a stand-alone option so there is really no need to belabor the issue which is really a non-issue. Hopefully it will be easy to get a car with or without it, the way it should be. I hate packages and questionable features that come standard.
Just look at these interesting statictics on the hybrid sales lately.
What will be the "long-term" outlook for the LS600hL?
link title
TagMan
I am NOT asking for a comparison, I am asking for a discussion of the driving dynamics of the LS460 based on the reviews we have so far. The fact that the car comes with an OFF button for trac/stability, has sport mode suspension, sport-mode option with real upgraded brakes, pads, suspension and wheels... Already there has been several reviews of this, the latest being MT.
How about the torque delivery of the engine at 4100rpm (peak) ? Any ideas what the torque curve would look like ?
As far as I'm concerned, it would be very strange to go out of one's way to avoid a standard feature like self-park. If you hate it, just don't use it. At the very least, you can try it once and then forget about it, or use it as a parlor trick.
Now as for the rest of the vehicle, I think it's good that there is a discussion of the LS' performance capabilities--IMO, any aspect of the vehicle is fair game. However, I would suggest that for the vast majority of flagship luxury buyers, most of this discussion is indeed academic as they will rarely call upon performance capabilities. But, it is still nice to know that the latent abilities are there! In my view the picture is not very clear as of yet, but really the only way to be really sure is to drive the car for yourself. I expect that the new LS will improve upon the old, and will achieve a level of respectable competence. Whether it has the ability to challenge the German makes, I'm uncertain, but hopeful that it will hold its own. As for the 'grabby' brakes, I heard the same thing in early articles about the LS 430 and I didn't experience that issue.
Bottom line is that car companies know how to extort money from us and at the same time lower their production costs. For instance, in order to get rear side air bags do you have to order the Comfort Package Plus package? Ridiculous. Same thing with the rear sun shade. That's all I want, not the friggin' package. I don't run a spa for my passengers. They don't need massages and custom multi climate zones are not necessary in the confines of several square feet.
I am not in the camp who would likes to donate money to Lexus so they can be at the same price of the German cars. I'll take the bargain aspect thank you. I prefer to see a car offered for as little money as possible and add options as I like them, as easily as putting groceries in a shopping cart. This goes without saying for any car whether it's luxury or economy.
This business of rooting for Lexus to raise their prices boggles my mind. Cost is one of their advantages. HELLO!!!
The best way imho to test mpg would be to have car A follow car B closely around a mixed highway/city course, and then have car B follow car A around the same course, and measure average mpg. I don't know of any tests that have been done like that.
But I have seen a couple of reputable sources with comparisons. Road & Track (May 2006) for instance puts the hybrid Camry at 42% better mpg than the Camry V6 SE; CR puts the hybrid at 48% better than the V6 and 42% better than the I4. (Both tests were in mixed highway/city driving.)
Choice should be made by the buyer and not the manufacturer.
Most restaurants I go to offer two menus: A la Carte and Fixed. I will boycott any restaruant that has only fixed menus. There is not a single chef in the world that knows my taste buds better than myself.
This business of rooting for Lexus to raise their prices boggles my mind. Cost is one of their advantages. HELLO!!!
Well said.
One of the things that gets to me, however, is the way some manufacturers (in this case I'll be objective enough to point a finger at one of my favorites, MB) price the options through the roof.
By the time you are done adding even a moderate amount of options, the base price and the final equipped price are miles apart.
TagMan
By the time you are done adding even a moderate amount of options, the base price and the final equipped price are miles apart.
IMO the MB options are expensive in part because they are available a la carte.
That is assuming you want a whole slew of options la carte(in that case a package is a bargain). But if you dont then why should you be obligated to pay for what you dont want?
This is why I like the way BMWs are priced. The only option I will buy from BMW is the sport package that does not cost BIG $$$. Like many others I do cherish my pocket book.
The GS450H is in short supply because it is not produced in large supply to begin with. The short supply of the hybrid GS has nothing to do whatsoever with hot demand.
People in that position aren't "forced" to buy anything from Lexus. They can turn to the Germans, as you have.
A good example is ordering a manual transmission on a vehicle that 99% of the time comes in automatic. Believe me, you will be paying a premium even if the manual transmission costs less than the automatic.
True. Cant argue with that. The option of choosing another auto maker is the best option of all.
In other words it becomes a question of paying for what you really dont want ( a package) and paying for what you really do want (a la carte).