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You are a prime example of the effectiveness of advertising psychology. I am saying the Lucerne is not a luxury car because the Lucerne is not a luxury car! For that matter, neither is the TL, Cadillac, the Audi, BMW's or the presently mechanically unreliable M-B's. These are all upscale automobiles whose respective companies have been successful in marketing them as luxury cars. The number of real luxury cars is properly very small and relegated to the likes of Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Ferrari and cars of this ilk.
Now as far as the issue of HID's is concerned you can rationalize all you want about how they are not necessary, too bright, etc. The fact of the matter is that they are the next standard in automotive lighting, are being made at least optional by other upscale purveyors of cars, and the more forward-thinking of these are beginning to make them standard, viz. the TL. The others, as previously noted, at least have them as optional as the market adjusts to this innovation just as it has to what previously have been considered "luxury" features in the past such as dual-zone HVAC, sunroofs, and automatic transmissions, all of which (and many more) features were once considered "luxury" and non-essential features.
The point is that if Buick is going to appeal to a wider perspective of buyers, which it and GM's other divisions must if GM is to avoid bankruptcy, it must discover the concept of offering more and increasingly desired and market-driven features for less money such as Acura has done in the TL. It is very much an issue of exceeding market expectations, not merely meeting them, and at a better price point to boot. In my view, a car which does not even have HID's available at any price in this day and age most certainly is not exceeding my market expectations.
By the way, cooled seats, 18" wheels and tires and rainsense wipers and remote start are in no way analogous to HID lights. If you live in a hot climate, cooled seats are nice but in the North or in Canada they are a convenience whereas it gets dark everywhere. 18" wheels are a styling trend, one which leads to more expensive tires with stiffer rides and more easily bent wheels when hitting potholes. If one is too lazy to flick a windshield wiper control stalk when one sees water on the windshield, well, what more can be said? Remote start is a convenience, hardly a safety and performance issue.
When is the Honda TL a competitor for Lucerne? The Edmunds shows 300, 500, Marquis, Avalon
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Competitors are very hard to quantify because you have to look into the minds of many, many consumers. I can easily see a Lucerne buyer looking for a sporty yet comfortable ride looking at the ES. The Lucerne would get a few more points for ride, handling and interior comfort and roominess.
TL has a very harsh ride and would be a tougher sell as a competitor but I could still see someone looking for a premium vehicle with sportiness looking at the CXS.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I've driven the Lucerne CXS but not at night.
Specifically, how are the Lucerne's halogen lights better than the Camaro's?
We went to the dealer again. It had rained hard shortly before we arrived. When we opened the front doors we found a lot of water in the weatherstrip V channel rubber seal on the door sill. Soaked a leg getting in. When this rubber V strip gets dirt in it from everyday use, it looks like even more of a problem.
Anyone else notice this? A problem? Or not. It did not appear the doors could have been left partly open during the rain. Thanks.....
The europeans use a distinctive hockey stick pattern that has a very distinctive cutoff at the horizontal plane with a kick up on the rh side. Before that the beams were a bit more rounder with the center of the beam directly forward of the driver. It can take some getting used to when you drive in the country (dark everywhere) and on hilly roads with the new system. Above this horizontal line it is pitch dark and as the car bobs this horizontal cutoff moves up and down. With the old way there was no distinct cutoff and light lit up higher but faded off. Hope this makes sense.
With the HID's you must follow this pattern or you will blind/haze oncoming traffic.
A little technical here now. A light bulb only puts out so much energy/light. How you project it makes a big difference. You could make a pencil beam and put light down a mile like a spot light but this would be very dangerous. The new horizontal cutoff lets the designer use the unused lighting pattern above the line down below giving more energy/light to project.
The old Camaro was the old way. The LaCrosse (which CR drove at night and actually made a very positive comment) and GM cars beyond it uses the new way.
Also the LaCrosse, and I assume the Lucerne, use 4 bulb burn. this means that when using your high beams all 4 front bulbs are on. This allows both a very bright pattern way down the road and right in front of the car. Doubt the Camaro has this. YOu can simulate this on some cars by holding the high selector in high position (flash to pass).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I am sure the Lucernes would be better.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
http://www.intellexual.net/hid.html
Has some pictures that may illustrate your discussion. Also discusses various HID lights.
Loren
More horsepower and torque than a Northstar v8? Hard to believe. Got data? It's torque that determines how most cars feel in respect to power.
Is that before or after the correction in advertised horsepower by Toyota? grin
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060313/AUTO01/603130350/1148-
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I would say the feel on the car is going to be that you have been robbed without a gun. Sorry but to truly compete with Japan makes, GM will have to use the V8 as the base model or at least use the 3.6 V6. A four speed automatic won't cut it. Buick is falling down and can't get up.
Loren
V6 Horsepower: 268 hp
Max Horsepower: 6200 rpm Torque: 248 ft-lbs.
Not bad, starting at $23,000, with some resale value two to twenty year down the road.
Loren
3800 puts out 210 approx at 1500 -2000 rpm!!! IIRC
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Loren
But if you are looking for a nice vanilla car that blends in with all the rest you just might have something with a Camry.
Myself, give me the Buick and it's 4 year warranty and comfort and size and ride and make it a Northstar.
Mike
Most people don't buy either a Camry or Lucerne for RPM - they want a comfortable 4-door sedan - and the Lucerne is "head and shoulders" above the skimpier Camry in that regard.
My Dad got a 2000 model year Camry, with a four cylinder for less, or the same than I paid for the Olds back in '87, and it is smoother, more quiet, with better handling and almost zero problems - zero major problems, though it is possible some had sludge problems that year. Actually my 1998 Corolla was a more satisfying car than the 1987 Olds98.
Now, I must say the old family Buick built in '61 or '62 was a super car indeed. Very classy LeSabre indeed.
As for looks the current Camry and Avalon to me are just as stylish as is the Lucerne. The Lucerne is plain vanilla.
The V6 uses regular gas.
3.5 liter DOHC 24 Valve V6 with dual VVT-i, aluminum alloy block and heads
HP: 268 @6,200 RPM
Torque: 248 @ 4,700 RPM
Regular fuel
Weight : 3,440#
Standard on even the CE which is around $18,300 are 4 wheel disk brakes with anti-lock, 160watt stereo. Air bags all around and knee bags. Tilt and telescopic steering column.
Now the LaCrosse and Lucerne look OK, and they may be a good ride. And yes, the ultimate value is in if ya like the car over time. Do not expect to buy the car and sell it within a couple years and not take a whopping hit. If ya buy and hold, and love it all the way, and get a healthy discount from GM on the car, it may just be perfect. Lucerne is an improvement over say the Bonneville in looks. Pretty clean looking design. LaCrosse is to me a little more interesting, with a little Jag thing going on up front, yet the older Buick is some ways too. Just nothing which pulls me in to buy one.
Loren
Do you realize how stupid that sounds? Just as stylish as vanilla?
-Loren
Ummm, who said they compete one to one with BMW?
Not I said the wise old man!
-Loren
Wait a minute, the Cadillac does compete with Lexus. Compete is not synonymous with winning however!
-Loren
I like a car with torque from the stop signs so I don't have to sound like the car across the street leaving home racing up through the gears to hit 40 down the street in his Honda Acura with OHC.
The four-speed transmission seems to be another irritant to the hate GM crowd. It works. Sorry 'bout that. And they don't break nearly as often as the others at Honda.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Over 70% of Lexus sales are in the sub-$40K category - ES, IS and RX330. GM uses both Buick and Cadillac to compete in this segment.
Not sure that $42K is the Luxuty cut off but I guess it sounds close. I would then consider the $33K to $42K MSRP the premium segment. (for cars, trucks would be a different story)
thanks.
I have looked for a new Camry test of the V6 model and can't find one. However, the concept that the Camry is "best" comparing with the Lucerne depends on one's definition of "best" and the whole argument is silly. The Camry is a smaller FWD sedan and that may be better for some. The Lucerne is larger, particularly in the rear seat area, which may be better for others. Performance is hard to say at this point as a V6 test of the Camry is not available. However, the old Camry with V6 and 5 speed auto is available. Compared with the V8 Lucerne 0-60 is slower by more than .5 seconds, 0-110 is slower by more than 4 seconds.
Loren
Anyone who thinks GM can't or doesn't compete with BMW is uninformed - just ask BMW.
For my money, the BMW 3-series wagon is an interesting choice. The Magnum with 5.7 might have better performance, but would use more fuel.
Now if it is the intention of Cadillac to compete one to one with BMW, all I can say is good luck. It will not have the resale, and has never had road reputation of BMW. Somewhere in-between is fine. A sporty car, and nearly as rich an interior, and handling selling a few grand below a Bimmer does make sense. So will it take away some sells - yes certainly. Those people really did not need, want, or could afford the BMW. They are the near BMW pool. Something the Lexus and Acura shoots for as well.
The CTS, once they add telescopic steering column, new interior overall, and the 3.6 V6 as a std. engine for $30K, have a winner. It is any wonder there is no 3.8 V6 version :P
Loren
This evaluator is pro Japan and he hangs out at all the GM boards spreading propaganda about how Japanese cars are better at this and that, blah, blah, blah. He then goes into resale value based on people who keep their cars a couple of years (not the norm anymore). He doesn't want to accept fact that some GM cars lower resale price is based on the incentives, fleet, and other discounts given at the time of sale which come back at the time of resale. $2000 cash back at the time of purchase generally means $2000 less at resale, etc.
That simply doesn't have to be true. The used price of a car in 3-4 years depends on the buyer interest in that particular model. Incentives at the beginning would only affect near term apparent value for used.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As for category of cars, the Malibu doesn't seem to have a place, the Impala is a pretty fair value, and when bought at or below $20K competes well with the Hyundai Sonata, which is another solid car which looks good and travels well. The Camry, Accord, to name a couple are in a class above. The Avalon is a classier Camry, but you won't have to look that high to surpass the competition.
Makes no difference to me which country is making the best car where is comes to give recognition for a job well done. If the personal experience has been positive with a Japan make, less so with a domestic make or GM, that naturally lowers the score in that individuals view. When others find the same to be true, they too will express the same opinions. When the scores come in for repairs required on a vehicle they own in surveys such as Consumer Reports, those become statistical facts. When sales slump to the point where a company is on the brink, those are facts. Resale near term and very long term is better on Japan makes. Just the facts. You can actually sell a Corolla with 100K miles on it ten years later and get good money for it - just facts.
I bought one back in 1998 and got a thousand off the sticker. They do discount Japan makes too. They do not have sales which appear to be going out of business sales. The Corvette is an excellent effort by GM. I think most people acknowledge that. The Solstice looks great. There are a few sparks coming off the old flame. And then there was the 1969 Camaro and Malibu, which were awesome looking cars back when. If they do good, that goodness will be rewarded. Treat the customer to a great car, and even better service and backing when things go terribly wrong. Good luck to you all !
Loren
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/03/01/212226.html
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/03/01/212164.html
The Lucerne looks better than the Camry to me and I would assume most people under 50 would agree. The Camry and Avalon are probably attractive to a certain segment of the population but I am not in that segment. If price and number of gears were the only consideration in buying a car then no one would buy the Lucerne. You are talking as if the car is a total flop and yet it has one of the quickest turnover rates at GM. Its selling this well with a weak base engine and while facing a tough competitor in the Avalon. Most "experts" like yourself probably thought the Lucerne was DOA because of the 268hp Avalon but it hasnt happened. Before you say the Lucerne's sales are due to fleets keep in mind that most of the models I have seen thus far were CXLs, not base CX cars. Another thing, if the Avalon is so great why is it getting creamed by the 300 AND Charger on the sales charts? Right now those two cars are the hottest full size cars on the market.
This topic is about the Lucerne, its not a place for people to write dissertations on GM's troubles. Being a GM critic is about as difficult as breathing. I do not understand why some people feel they are bringing something new to the table with tired old critiques of GM products. Give it a rest.