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MazdaSpeed3: Styling Impressions

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    kronogoosekronogoose Member Posts: 116
    You can bet that whatever demographic is shopping for a high-performance compact will also be looking at the Caliber SRT4. Given its expected price around $22K, the SRT4 would be the clear winner on the 300HP number alone. (Of course, the MS3 is about more than straightline acceleration.)

    I personally have more faith in Mazda's long term reliability, and whereas the 3's styling is OK (not "wow", but also not offensive), the Caliber's styling is frightening, especially from the rear 3/4 view.

    Throw the upcoming Civic Si sedan into the mix, and you've got some healthy competition. Good for us! :D

    I am fast approaching 40, and I find the "Wild Child" website very entertaining. But then again, in my household, the TV is usually tuned to cartoons! One of these days, I will regain control of the remote from the kids...

    Thanks for letting me ramble.

    Greg
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    kronogoosekronogoose Member Posts: 116
    There is one other factor in the MS3's favor. Since this will be Mazda's third application of the turbocharged DISI engine (after the MS6 and CX7), most of the bugs should be worked out, i.e. not having to reflash the ECU as with the MS6.

    The SRT4 on the hand, will have a "brand new" engine and may take some time to work out any quirks.

    I am curious if Mazda has tinkered with the MS6's six-speed to allow for lower-RPM highway cruising.

    Greg
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    autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    I'm still scratching my head about the Protege5 commercial (obviously from a couple of years ago) with young adults skateboarding. All of the P5's (and 3's for that matter) I see in my area seem to be driven by young families...not exactly the skateboarding type. It will be interesting to see how the MS3 is marketed

    Yes, marketing is an art. Just look at the latest series of Jaguar XK commercials which are redefining the brand ... black and white shots of a couple and their Jag against a hip sound track. You can see it on video.google.com

    Mazda commercials are not offensive but I would not say they'd inspire me to visit a dealer.
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    rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "I am curious if Mazda has tinkered with the MS6's six-speed to allow for lower-RPM highway cruising."

    Doubtful.

    I checked Mazda of Australia's website (since both the MS3 and MS6 are currently on sale). They list the exact same gear ratios in 1-6, and the same Final Drive ratios for both cars.

    Here are the ratios for the MS3 (in Australia; I see no reason for them to offer different ratios for the U.S. market):

    1st - 3.538
    2nd - 2.238
    3rd - 1.535
    4th - 1.171
    5th - 1.085
    6th - 0.853

    Final drive - 3.941 (1st-4th), 3.350 (5th-6th)

    http://www.mazda.com.au/mazda3mps/specifications_pl.asp?ID=76
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    seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    Is this a plain canvas to let the PimpMyRide types to wreak havoc or is this the elegant assasin of the BMW3 / Audi / VW RSI delivering gobs of power to the masses?

    Judging by the posts from some of the youngins on other forums, I think there is a lot of interest in modding. Some talk of venting the blowoff valve, for "cool turbo sound", but mostly performance mods. So, fingers crossed, I don't think this will be a pimp mobile by and large. I think the hatch ("baby mini-van") will fend off the would-be pimpers and allow it to be something of the sleeper/assassin. "Elegant" is tough to pull off with the hatch, IMHO.
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    autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    I think the hatch ("baby mini-van") will fend off the would-be pimpers and allow it to be something of the sleeper/assassin. "Elegant" is tough to pull off with the hatch, IMHO.

    Hmm, in my opinion a hatch frequently appears the cooler configuration when compared to its sedan sibling. Compare the Golf to the Jetta and the Civic CRX to the regular sedan.

    Regarding "elegant" consider what the Pacifica and Murano did for SUVs; similarly, I wonder if Mazda wants to move its Speed line away from a brutish exterior to a refined almost understated one that only hints at the power under the cowl.

    Following my earlier question about the manual transmission and Mazdas I have two more:
    Since the Mazdaspeed6 was not an overwhelming success in part due to the lack of an automatic option, doesn't the same fate await the Mazdaspeed3?

    Does anyone know how many sales of Mazdaspeed6 (available only as a manual) there have been in its first year and what the target was?
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    daniel99daniel99 Member Posts: 13
    They tacked on another $35. -> mazdausa
    I didn't notice any other updates.
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    seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    Hmm, in my opinion a hatch frequently appears the cooler configuration when compared to its sedan sibling. Compare the Golf to the Jetta and the Civic CRX to the regular sedan.

    Regarding "elegant" consider what the Pacifica and Murano did for SUVs; similarly, I wonder if Mazda wants to move its Speed line away from a brutish exterior to a refined almost understated one that only hints at the power under the cowl.

    If you saying cool and elegant are somehow synonymous, I disagree. Elegant cars don't usually include features that maximize utility (such as a hatch configuration), whereas cool cars often do. And "elegant crossover" is an oxymoron, like "Porsche Cayenne". Elegant is a Jaguar XKE, while cool can be as inelegant as a Hummer. Elegant is just the right form for a particular, refined purpose. No more, no less than is needed. Cool, on the other hand, is often a synthesis of different forms to create a new, more well-adapted form serving new purposes.

    I suppose you might be able to build an elegant hatch, but it wouldn't have anywhere near the cargo space that a cool hatch like the MS3 has.
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    audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    Finally, what percentage of Mazda3 drivers use the stick?

    for the 2006 model year our MZ3 sales break down to 76% auto and 24% manual trans. The entire northeast region runs 68% auto and 32% stick.
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    rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    I'd be willing to bet a large sum that the % of MZ3 owners who opt for a stick is HIGHER than the % of MZ6 owners who go that route.

    Point being that the Speed6 had a tougher sell by offering manuals only than (IMO) the Speed3 will.

    Regarding the Speed6; is there any reason why the automatic from the AWD CX7 couldn't be used in the Speed6? In other words, if the lack of an automatic is a problem for the Speed6, wouldn't it be a rather simple issue for Mazda to resolve?
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    autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    68% auto and 32% stick

    That's about what I was expecting. In other words, the majority of drivers of the Mazda3 (and likely the Mazda6) use an automatic.

    Mazdaspeed, which is the top of the line version of the Mazda3 and Mazda6, is not only the costliest but is exclusively for a minority of drivers, those who use manual transmissions. Other manufacturers use a similar approach for their "serious", "high performance" machines. This makes sense if you have enough in the pool to justify the costs of producing the exclusive line.
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    autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    Speed6 had a tougher sell by offering manuals only than (IMO) the Speed3 will.

    Agreed. Especially, if you consider the price difference.
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    seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    Apparently not on the stands yet, so I haven't seen it, but subscribers apparently have. SCC got enought hot laps (no equipment hooked up, so no stats) to fall way in love with the MS3. Cover says: "APEXPREDATOR". I suspect heavy Mazda ad buy (?) might have facilitated the love, but who knows.

    They purportedly say the GTI and SI are not in the same league, 'cause the MS3 "is that good". Article also is reported to report official output at 263 hp. If it's running 91 octane at the that hp, and if that's SAE corrected, I think it means there is very little difference in power b/t the MS3 and MS6 at 93. Lastly, reported report on unit volume for the US is 5K annually. But as someone noted, that is the same volume as the M3 GT. It's also the same volume as the MS6. I don't know what it all means for certain, but so far 1 out 6 dealers I pinged about honoring S-Plan for an ordered (unallotted?) MS3 has declined.
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Speed6 had a tougher sell by offering manuals only than (IMO) the Speed3 will.


    The Speed6 was targeted twards people who would also shop Audi, BMW. The majority of those people want an automatic.

    The Speed3 is targeted to the GTI crowd, which mainly prefer stick.

    Speed3 should sell well.
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    seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    Aviboy, any chance in Hades that a dealer would be more likely to agree to sell a "special order" MS3 on S-Plan vs. than one of their allotted cars? The reason I ask is someone on another forum got a dealer to agree to this, FWIW. But I wonder if there really is any distinction between ordered and allotted cars for all practical purposes.
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    kronogoosekronogoose Member Posts: 116
    seanwms6: Thanks for the new information. I'll have to look for the next SCC to read the entire article. It's hard to imagine what could make the writers think the MS3 is in a different league than the GTI and Si.

    You own a MS6, right? Are you considering the MS3?

    Thanks!

    Greg
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    seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    Yeah, a lot of people are frantically searching store shelves for copies right now.

    I got an MS6 last December but have always like the 3 hatch and just needed more power. If I'd known the MS3 would come out this Fall, I'd have waited and not gotten the MS6. Now I just will have to wait for the intro craziness to die down to see if I can get S-Plan pricing. Until then I can't justify trading in the MS6 since it has lost so much value with the severe discounting going on. If it doesn't happen, I'm very happy to continue driving the MS6.
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    rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "Yeah, a lot of people are frantically searching store shelves for copies right now."

    Well, I read the article (at that 'other' site). All, I can say is I really really REALLY want one now.....

    Too bad you couldn't have held out a few more months and got a MS3 instead.... :P
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    seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    Yeah, when I saw all the delays with the MS6, I figured the MS3 had to be a couple of years away. My bad, big time.
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    kronogoosekronogoose Member Posts: 116
    I found the "Apex Predator" issue of Sport Compact Car. Like you mentioned, there were no hard stats, so I didn't buy the magazine...I pretty much skimmed through it.

    The review was very favorable, with the only real recommendation by the writer for stickier tires. The testing was done in the US at Laguna with cars that had steering wheels on the left side. I got the impression that they were test cars, not factory fresh for the consumption of the general public.

    If I read correctly, the electronic "nanny" limiting power applies only to the first two gears (not three like I read elsewhere). They do indeed cite 263 BHP and 280 torque. Basically, they make the MS3 sound like it's ready for the track, right out of the box, with some concessions for every day driving.

    The only real competition (I'm guessing based on power) is the Caliber SRT4. Come to think of it, I don't recall seeing an actual release date.

    Interesting read, but I can't wait for some test results!

    Greg
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    seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    Interesting news from somewhere in Canada. A dealer there allegedly says he'll have 2 cars in 10 days. They just announced the Canadian pricing a couple of days ago. Sure waited to the last minute for that.
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    daniel99daniel99 Member Posts: 13
    In the US (Georgia), I'm getting different stories:
    Not sure/no news,
    Sept/Oct,
    60 days, or
    next March

    Some dealers seem to know a little more than others. No VINs yet though. If it is like the 2007 Mazda3, we won't see an official release date, the Mazdaspeed3 will just start showing up. For example: The 2007 Mazda3 models are showing up at dealers, but Mazda's website won't let you search 2007 inventory, give 2006/2007 comparisons, or 2007 specs.
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    autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    announced the Canadian pricing a couple of days ago.

    Great, please share the details!
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    audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    Some dealers seem to know a little more than others. No VINs yet though. If it is like the 2007 Mazda3, we won't see an official release date, the Mazdaspeed3 will just start showing up

    We have 4 pre-orders and 2 cars with VIN#'s that are built and waiting for shipping.
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    rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "...and waiting for shipping."

    Hopefully, the shipping company won't have any more mishaps with their car carriers.... :surprise:
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    seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    Audia8Q, can you answer my question about whether there is really any chance in Hades that a dealer would be more likely to agree to sell a "special order" MS3 on S-Plan vs. than one of their allotted cars? As noted above, the reason I ask is someone on another forum got a dealer to agree to this, FWIW. But I wonder if there really is any distinction between ordered and allotted cars for all practical purposes.
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Yeah, when I saw all the delays with the MS6, I figured the MS3 had to be a couple of years away. My bad, big time.

    We all thought that. I thought the MS3 would come out in 2008.
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    audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    Audia8Q, can you answer my question about whether there is really any chance in Hades that a dealer would be more likely to agree to sell a "special order" MS3 on S-Plan vs. than one of their allotted cars?

    Anything is possible...but based on the initial interest in the speed3 the chances appear slim. OTOH, if the cars don't sell and they start to pile up then you would have a good chance of getting the s-plan....but that is a big gamble if you really want the car. All MS3 are special orders and tightly allocated so that angle doesnt matter. Dealers earn every car they get, there are no extra's.
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    seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    Yeah, thanks. And thanks for the info that all are special order. I think that fact that MS6s didn't start jumping off the lot as soon as they arrived helped me last year. The MS3 ought to move at MSRP initially for sure. I think I'll forget about S-Plan and just see what the best deal is. I guess I'll start pinging dealers again in December for delivery in Spring.
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    autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    if the cars don't sell and they start to pile up

    It would surprise me if the Mazdaspeed3 did not sell better than the Mazdaspeed6. The slant to a younger audience, the lower cost and the lack of reasonably-priced alternatives in the marketplace bode well for the Mazdaspeed3.

    However, if the handling is not what was advertised, or if supply and ordering is problematic, or if fuel costs rise dramatically, its success could be compromised.

    Curiously, if the Mazdaspeed3 becomes a huge success it may not be a sure win for Mazda. For example, would drivers move from the RX8 and the Miata to the Mazdaspeed3 as it acquires the mantle of the fastest vehicle in the lineup?
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    seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    "...would drivers move from the RX8 and the Miata to the Mazdaspeed3 as it acquires the mantle of the fastest vehicle in the lineup?"

    I think you might pick up the odd RX8 driver, but most of the RX8 and definitely the Miata buyers bought RWD for a reason. I don't think they will chuck it for the temporary distinction of owning the FWD roll-on top dog, no matter how well Mazda can make it handle for an FWD.
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    audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    I really expect this car to sell very well...but I wanted to give the guy who asked the question come glimmer of hope concerning his s-plan pricing...LOL

    The pre-sells and interest in this speed car is similar to the speed protege which was a huge hit for our dealership...

    I just read one of those tuner compact car mags that did a review on the speed 3 and they loved it...so I'm glad to see some positive press.
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    autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    The pre-sells and interest in this speed car is similar to the speed protege which was a huge hit for our dealership...

    But wasn't the Mazdaprotege a short-lived (i.e. 2 year) phenomenon? Going turbo is a bit of a risky if exciting strategy. It'll be interesting to see how the marketplace adjusts to the crazy gas prices and the contradictory strategies of auto-manufacturers. Unlike Mazda, Honda/Toyota/Lexus (HoTLe) see hybrids as their answer for not only the eco-folks but also the performance crowd. Isn't F1 also moving towards hybrids? Moreover, by hybridizing their fleet won't HoTLe effectively lower the cost of development and capture a larger segment of the market?

    In any case all the best to you, Rich, and your dealership!
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    seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    "I really expect this car to sell very well...but I wanted to give the guy who asked the question come glimmer of hope concerning his s-plan pricing...LOL."

    The glimmer is shining a little brighter today if I can turn agreement on the phone into reality. There that and also the little matter of a trade on MS6. Next stop Carmax for an appraisal.
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    audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    But wasn't the Mazdaprotege a short-lived (i.e. 2 year) phenomenon?

    All the MazdaSpeed cars are short lived...

    Going turbo is a bit of a risky if exciting strategy. It'll be interesting to see how the marketplace adjusts to the crazy gas prices and the contradictory strategies of auto-manufacturers

    It seems alot of mfg are heading that way. Even Honda/Acura is getting into the 4 cyl turbo game with the new RDX. The speed cars are a specialty type cars....the driving force to buy isnt MPG.

    The jury is still out on hybrids...I suspect its a temp technology that will be replaced by some newer technology that lives up to expectations a little better.
    Oddly enough it appears that the Prius is the only hybrid that is getting any major play. Honda has cut production of their hybrids and Ford has tremendous incentives on their hybrids....I guess unless you have a strong eco interest folks arent ready to overpay to get a few extra miles per gallon.
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    rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "I guess unless you have a strong eco interest folks arent ready to overpay to get a few extra miles per gallon."

    Off-topic but I can't resist....

    I don't think it's just a matter of having a strong eco interest. Hybrid owners (and particularly Prius owners) also want EVERYONE ELSE TO KNOW that they have a stong eco interest. Hence, the Prius is more popular because it isn't simply a different engine option in an otherwise 'normal' ICE vehicle, but is instead a vehicle that is offered as a hybrid ONLY. When you glance at it, you KNOW it's a hybrid.

    It sells the best because their owner's receive RECOGNITION for saving the planet. Afterall, what good is being eco-friendly if you have to do it incognito?

    Sometimes I think that Prius owners have replaced smog with smug.....and I say this as an individual who has a parent with a Prius... :blush:
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    The jury is still out on hybrids...I suspect its a temp technology that will be replaced by some newer technology that lives up to expectations a little better.

    I could not agree more.

    A while back I did a comparo on the Mazda3 i automatic Vs. Honda Civic Hybrid. My results were you would drive 60K+ miles worth of gas before ever reaching the INITIAL cost of the Civic Hybrid at the day's current gas prices ($2.50/gal)

    Sorry for continuing off topic...
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    autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    The jury is still out on hybrids...I suspect its a temp technology that will be replaced by some newer technology ...

    Considering that:
    - the leading auto-manufacturer in the world is actively developing hybrids;
    - the price of gas topped $3.00 and is expected to continue rising with experts predicting $100/gallon shortly;
    - the alternatives (e.g. bio-fuels) are unsustainable or distant (e.g. hydrogen power);
    - the President himself (someone who knows something about oil production) says we're addicted to oil;
    I think hybrids are a conservative approach to handling our future needs.

    Many auto-manufacturers appear not to be making the necessary investments for the future. Remember when ABS and airbags were considered unnecesary or optional. Now, most auto-manufacturers recognize their importance and plug them into their vehicle design. Hybrids are no longer experimental nor would they be considered costly if they were incentivized.

    Granted the Mazdaspeed3 is an amazing vehicle but is it looking forward? Maybe expecting much from a middle rung auto-manufacturer like Mazda is unfair, but they've provided some wonderful vehicles in the past. Imagine a Wankel-hybrid or a Mazdaspeed that delivers 50 mpg as well as 200+ mph.
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    audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    Granted the Mazdaspeed3 is an amazing vehicle but unfortunately is it looking forward?

    How forward thinking should they be for a car that will only be around a year or so???

    I think hybrids are a conservative approach to handling our future needs.

    Your thinking only represents a small fraction of the population...until alot more people feel the sameway this isnt going very far. Let's revisit this debate in a few years. until then, the jury will still be out and the debate will continue.

    Many auto-manufacturers appear not to be making the necessary investments for the future.

    I agree, but history is littered with mfg's making huge investments in ideas and theories that didn't work out as planned....many mfg don't have the cash to develop ideas that are barely theory at this point.

    now back to the MazdaSpeed3....
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    autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    represents a small fraction of the population...until alot more people feel the sameway this isnt going very far.

    From Toyota:
    "Toyota has already sold more than 500,000 hybrid vehicles around the world, and continues to develop new versions of its hybrid power system to use in forthcoming vehicles. With the positive response from the market ... Toyota will achieve its
    goal of selling one million hybrid vehicles world-wide early in the next decade."

    What does this have to do with Mazdaspeed? Well, MSP is the niche line where Mazda gets to try out a new twist on a vehicle, something different and exciting and if it doesn't work, it can drop it after a year or two or if it does work, then share it with other platforms. Mazda turned to the turbo, something from their past and passed on this technology from the Mazdaspeed6 to the Mazdaspeed3 to the CX7 to the ... In other words, this is turning out to be more than a two year phenomenon applying to a single model but rather a major investment across multiple lines using this technology. Will this investment pay off and generate a half million sales like Toyota's hybrid strategy has so far?
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    To comment about your previous post, GM is the worlds leading manufacturer, not Toyota.

    Well, MSP is the niche line where Mazda gets to try out a new twist on a vehicle, something different and exciting and if it doesn't work, it can drop it after a year or two or if it does work, then share it with other platforms

    That is not Mazdaspeed. Mazdaspeed is a production Mazda that offers what enthusiasts, or people in the race industry have had access to for years, Mazdaspeed performance. It is not their test lab for technology. When you invest millions of dollars into technology, you rarely incorporate it into one vehicle. It is more business like to invest your millions, or billions, in multiple vehicles. Like the MZR 2.3 DISI Turbo in MS6, MS3, CX-7.

    Will this investment pay off and generate a half million sales like Toyota's hybrid strategy has so far?

    Mazda's buyer is far from the Toyota buyer. Mazda's idea of what they feel a vehicle should be vastly differs from Toyota.

    If the Mazda does sell 500,000 MZR 2.3L DISI Turbo vehicles, then, I guess a small company like Mazda accomplished what a mega giant like Toyota did as well. I would think that speaks highly for Mazda. ;) Mazda has already sold nearly 1 million of their most famous nitch vehicle, the MX-5. Mazda knows what they are doing.

    Now, back to the MS3!! :shades:
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    autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    GM is the worlds leading manufacturer, not Toyota
    You're right: GM is the leader for the moment, however, Toyota is the most profitable. Many predict Toyota will assume the mantle of both (most profit and most production) later this year.

    From BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5244430.stm):
    Toyota, the world's most profitable carmaker, has reported a 39% rise in first-quarter income ... Toyota's global unit sales should soon overtake market-leader General Motors. The Japanese giant sold 2.09 million vehicles around the world in its latest quarter, up from 1.95 million during the same period a year earlier. Toyota is doing particularly well in North America, where it sold 747,300 vehicles during the quarter, up more than 16% ...

    Unless Mazdaspeed's turbo variations of the Protege, Mazda6, Mazda 3 ... are tied to a strategy for the future this may be a misguided use of resources useful only for the short-term. I believe Toyota and Honda have a better formula for the future: deliver performance + efficiency. The Accord/Camry/Lexus hybrids offer both excellent performance and improved efficiency; these will move from being niche vehicles to leaders of the brand and eventually the segment.

    p.s. I'm an ardent fan of Mazda and wish it to capture some portion of the future market but have concerns ...
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    GM is the leader for the moment, however, Toyota is the most profitable. Many predict Toyota will assume the mantle of both (most profit and most production) later this year.


    I happen to agree with you, it will not be long before GM is overtaken by Toyota for #1.

    I believe Toyota and Honda have a better formula for the future: deliver performance + efficiency. The Accord/Camry/Lexus hybrids offer both excellent performance and improved efficiency; these will move from being niche vehicles to leaders of the brand and eventually the segment.

    The problem is price. The added cost of buying a hybrid now vs. a conventional gasoline engine is pretty high.

    Maybe Mazda can release a performace designed hybrid once cost comes down?? Mazda seems to be leaning twards the sport side of the industry, and is more of a nitch brand that is trying to expand. Which I happen to like. :D

    I understand what you are trying to say.
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    rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "I believe Toyota and Honda have a better formula for the future: deliver performance + efficiency."

    I beg to differ.

    The ONLY models I can think of that use a hybrid powertrain to boost performance first and efficiency second would be the Honda Accord Hybrid and the various hybrids from Lexus (RX400h, GS450h and LS450h). In the case of the Accord, the hybrid version has a whooping 9hp advantage (244hp in the 'normal' version vs. 253 in the hybrid) and a 21 ftlbs of torque advantage (232 vs. 211). Couple that with about a 150lb weight penalty for the Accord Hybrid and you'll find that the power/weight ratio for the REGULAR version is actually slightly better (14.1 lbs/hp vs. 14.2 lbs/hp for the hybrid).

    Extra 'performance' for the hybrid version? Um......borderline maybe. I think the POINT of putting hybrid powertrains in the V6 models is so one can maintain essentially the same (and perhaps a smidge better) performance while getting measureably better fuel economy.

    The Camry Hybrid? Fine for economy with a dollop of performance. BUT, if I'm in the market for performance FIRST, I'm looking at the regular V6 edition, not the hybrid version. Ditto with the Civic Hybrid.

    The point being that for the COST and the amount of ACTUAL PERFORMANCE GAINED (not economy, performance), Mazda went the correct way with the turbo MZR. Honda managed less than a 4% boost in hp and a 10% boost in torque for their Accord Hybrid.

    For the Lexus 450h, the 3.5l V6 hybrid system is rated at 339hp and 267 ftlbs. The similar 3.5l V6 in the Avalon is rated at 268hp and 248 ftlbs. So Lexus managed a much better 26% jump in hp and 8% jump in torque for the 3.5l V6 in the (very expensive) 450h.

    But what about the turbo 2.3l DISI unit in the Speed3? Well, hp jumps from 160 to 264 (a 65% boost in hp) and torque is up from 150 to 280 (over an 85% boost in torque). Sure seems to me that from a PERFORMANCE standpoint (uh, performance IS the point here, right?), the turbo was MUCH more effective (and cheaper) than a hybrid.

    Misguided use of resources? Could we just PLEASE give this over-used cliche a rest? One could argue that ANY individual use of a motor vehicle over mass-transit (or bicycling) is a 'misguided use of resources'. Or owning (heating/cooling) a home larger than 1200 sf is a 'misguided use of resources' (not to mention the resources used in that home construction). Or going on vacation, or consuming too many calories, or using toomuchelectricity ornotrecylingallyourbottlesandcans yada yada yada ad nauseum infinitum.

    How in the hell did this topic morph into carping about Mazda not going down the hybrid path and talking about resource usage? The Speed3 is supposed to be about maximum FUN in an affordable, practical, reliable, stylish package.

    The Speed3 is NOT "well, let's build a car with slightly better performance BUT NOT TOO MUCH, and we'd better get better fuel economy at the same time because IT'S THE SOCIALLY RESPONSIBLE THING TO DO, and maybe we should use reconstituted seaweed paste for soundproofing material because we should USE RESOURCES WISELY".

    bleah. If management at Toyota still had the big brass balls that the guys at Mazda evidently have, I'd still be a Toyota fan. As it is now however, my current Toyota is my LAST Toyota.....
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    autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    Let's start from the ending.
    I'm an ardent fan of Mazda and wish it to capture some portion of the future market but have concerns ...
    In other words, like you, I am for Mazda not against it.

    The Speed3 is supposed to be about maximum FUN in an affordable, practical, reliable, stylish package.
    Agreed. The questions I ask myself are: wasn't the Mazdaspeed6 supposed to have delivered that and why was it not a success? My answer is that it was not enough.

    I'm not saying that Mazda should build hybrids to get performance and efficiency. Mazda could build lighter vehicles, or decontent them, or introduce valve management, or refine its Renesis engine to be more fuel efficient, or a hundred other things. Strapping a turbo to an engine and adding several hundred pounds to a vehicle seems like an old solution. BMW, for example, improved the performance and efficiency of one of its latest vehicles by reducing the weight of the roof, thus lowering the centre of gravity and consequently improving its handling. An elegant solution from a company known for performance.

    The reference to misguided use of resources was not from an ecological but from a financial point of view. Mazda as you know is a branch of Ford (which is not in the best financial state at the moment). What do you think Ford will do if Mazda continues to produce vehicles that sell below expectations as the Mazdaspeed6 did?

    Finally, for the sake of Mazda I hope the MazdaSpeed3 is a success!
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    rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Then why all the side talk about hybrids?

    For a company with (as you note) limited FINANCIAL resources, why try to go the hybrid route with it's HUGE R&D costs?

    COMPLETELY agree with you on the weight issue. The weight problem for the MS6 (mostly due to the questionable decision to make the MS6 an AWD design) is coupled with the lack of an automatic tranny where one would be welcomed (in the market for which the MS6 was aimed). I don't think a lack of fuel economy (is that what you are referring too?) was the 'problem' with the MS6.

    They missed THAT market with the Speed6, and lackluster sales are the result.

    OTOH, the Speed3 avoids the dual problem of cost and weight of the AWD system and targets a market (hot hatch) where a manual tranny is expected.

    One of the engineering problems with BMW's approach (which I applaud) is the fact that often times the weight reduction is achieved by using lighter (and MUCH more expensive) materials, rather than just cutting content. In the market the Mazda3 occupies, it would be financially difficult to cut weight by using expensive materials and content is also difficult to cut due to consumers 'comparing' various cars by looking at brochures and comparing standard features.

    To Mazda's credit, virtually all the weight gain for the Speed3 is due to PERFORMANCE enhancements (motor, suspension improvements, 6-spd trans, and structural strengthening) and in an effort to keep the weight down, they're not offering a sunroof (at least for now).

    Personally, I'm betting that the Speed3 will be a HUGE success and hopefully becomes a permanent edition to the Mazda stable.
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    autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    Personally, I'm betting that the Speed3 will be a HUGE success and hopefully becomes a permanent edition to the Mazda stable.

    Hope you're right! :)
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    This is an exert from the latest Sport Compact Car "Apex Predator"

    "For the last year, the sub $23K price range has been the domain of the GTI and Civic Si. But you simply can't compare those two to the Mazdaspeed3; it is really that good."

    There were also many, many other positive attributes in the article as well. I suggest you all run to your local news stand and pick up your copy today! :shades:
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    seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    I predict this is the first of many positive reviews to come just in time for the arrival of the first cars. Mazda was smart to keep the price down. The mags will take notice and give it kudos for it's performance-to-dollar ratio. I think they'll sell a lot of MS3s. I'm now getting more worried that the dealer who agreed to S-Plan for a special order will back down.
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I'm now getting more worried that the dealer who agreed to S-Plan for a special order will back down.

    Do you have a purchase order stating that you will be purchasing the MS3 for S-Plan? Did you leave them a deposit?
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