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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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very simplified ...
$1 Billion investment( 10 yr amortization = $100 Million annually )
1000 units sold = Fixed costs of $100,000 / vehicle
10,000 units sold = Fixed costs of $10,000 / vehicle
100,000 units sold = Fixed costs of $1,000 / vehicle
As for the Sonata being a family hauler as good as a Camry or Accord, it may fall into the category of best initial cost, with close performance overall. The same? You are right, it competes, but I am not too sure it wins. Perhaps the value is there and it is time for resale values to get better -- hard to say. When considering the V6, I am thinking the Azera should enter the equation. Then there are those without a family to haul around wanting a sporting or luxury car of value. The V6 Accord may win here for handling. The Azera has plenty of power and the Sonata is no slug. The so called appliance cars for basic transportation these days I think is moving a bit closer to style, and fun factor. In all fairness, these new cars, be it Accord to Sonata, now have more HP than say my old Mustang of first generation, better cornering ability, and yes a quiet, yet entertaining ride. I do it myself, calling these popular and more common cars an appliance. Must slap myself and snap into reality here, as these are todays' modern and sleek cars as where say the 60's Chevy or Fords. Looking at a sleek Honda Accord or G6 coupe, it reminds me that there still is some style these days, with great aerodynamics.
Problem I see in the Honda line is pricing. Seems like the V6 cars are pretty steeply priced. Is the Honda Accord four cylinder the quickest of the fours, other than an Altima? I believe I read that the Sonata four is not too quick.
-Loren
Residual value is also partially affected by the higher initial prices paid for an Accord or Camry, although the perceived quality and historical acceptance is most important. If one compares prices paid for comparably priced models, can one buy an 2007 Accord EX-L V6 for $20,574, including 6.25% sales tax? Doubtful, but one can buy a 2007 Sonata Limited Standard for that, and probably even less at other dealers. That figure was the "out the door" quote given to me.
And, what's the going price for a 2007 Accord LX or 2007 Camry LE 4-cylinder. A comparably equipped 2007 Sonata GLS 4-cylinder, again including 6.25% sales tax, can be had for $16,811.
Both the Accord and Camry will have much better resale values than either Sonatas, but after a given time duration, what will one's actual monetary loss be? Since the Sonata's prices are lower to begin with, the loss may be less than you think.
And those saying Sonata's resale value hitting the toilet b/c of its high fleet figures - what about cars with low fleet figures? I have seen low fleet mainstream models (historically) having not-so-stellar resale values. Okay, let's say if the current Sonata does take a big time hit in depreciation, wouldn't the upfront savings allow for the recovery of the difference? The resale value for the Sonata is fine.
Sure the V6 version will cost you a couple thousand more, but I think it's worth it. I think the current Accord is more suited to the V6 engine, than the previous generation Accords were (larger).
Your cooperation is much appreciated.
Don't worry, it is. :shades: My 4-cylinder is also more efficient than most in the class, so as the difference in resale goes down with age, the gas $ saved goes up.
I can't remember the name of the award it just won, but the Accord just got the award for highest resale value in its class. Someone know the specific award? I've seen it in the commercials with the "deflating cars" and the Honda is left standing. Funny.
Wonder if a Sonata coupe is coming anytime soon?
-Loren
-Loren
Seems to me the Honda V6 is four or five thousand more than some of the competition. And is more costly than Toyotas.
You get what you pay for, and I doubt the Accord V6 is more than a Camry V6.
I'll use top-line models, as similarly equipped as I know how to make them to the EX-V6 Accord Sedan, Automatic:
Honda Accord EX-V6
MSRP - $27,400
Invoice - $24,683
TMV - is $25,689*
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Toyota Camry XLE V6 w/ VSC, Heated Seats, floor mats
MSRP - $29,929,
Invoice - $27,025
TMV - $29,824*
The Camry is a little better equipped (nicer Audio system w/Bluetooth, manual rear-sunshade, and auto-day/night mirror), and has more power (268 hp vs. 244 hp in Accord)but costs a good deal more than the Accord, not the other way around.
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I did the Ford Fusion SEL V6, and added Traction Control, ABS, Leather, Heated Seats, Moonroof, 6-CD Changer, and Daytime Running Lamps to line it up as best I could with the Accord.
Fusion SEL V6
MSRP - $25,875
Invoice - $23,720
TMV - $24,180*
For those who want Stability Control, the Fusion does not offer it. It does however offer All-Wheel Drive. Here are the numbers for the AWD Fusion, equipped identically to the FWD one listed above.
Ford Fusion SEL-V6 AWD
MSRP - $27,630
Invoice - $25,303
TMV - $25,715*
Are there more incentives that I'm not aware of? I have $750 Dealer rebate for Accord and $1,000 Customer Cash for Fusion.
*after Destination charges and incentives.
++All info from Edmunds.com++
"2006 Sonata - 16 to 18 mpg on average. Very poor."
You worry about MPG and race the car whenever you can :confuse:
A Motorcycle will be a better choice for that, not a 3500LB sedan.
I drive my 06 LX Sonata just like you drive yours, and still get 23-24MPG which is better than my 1994 Honda Accord 2.2L used get. Somehow,after 18,000 miles of abusing, mine don't have problems like your Sonata has either.......I don't know what to tell you man.
As for reliability, I consider 200K+ to be reliable, since even a piece of junk Daewoo/Aveo can do 100K these days.
Yes, I expect more than 250+K out of any car that I buy. Frankly, I can't wear out my old '85 classic SAAB 900 - it's like the Energizer bunny! At the rate it just keeps going, maybe I will also reach 1 Million miles, and get a new one free of charge from SAAB like the fellow did at the Detroit auto show! BTW . . . the Lambda V6 from Hyundai is designed with a minimum service life of 300K.
100K miles used to be the milestone that every car manufacturer shot for before major problems were expected; now, any car, with prudent preventive maintenance can easily reach that figure.
OK - but I doubt many people want to keep their cars that long. Most don't. They want to see something new after a while. Like me. I keep em 4-5 years, and by then I want a new look going. I don't want to see the same ole sitting in my garage.
That's what's so attractive about Accords. You get out of them so easy without taking a trade-in bath. Makes these great leases available because of Accord's high resale value and overall appeal.
sure it does, but maybe not as much as you think - assuming that you drive quite a bit (20k/yr) and do a portion of that on the highway - your 4 banger might realistically be expected to get 30mpg overall, the V6 26mpg. The 4 cyl. needs 666 gallons of gas, the V6 768, a savings of 100 gallons, $300.00, or $25/month. Drive less,as most folks do, then the savings are less. And while any Accord will command premium resale values you will also get a portion of that V6 premium back at trade-in time as well.
IMO, of course, while the Accord would be the only car in this group that I would even consider with a 4 cylinder, over 4 years I spend the extra $2200.00 ($45.00/month) - $300.00 x4 + $1000.00 (the initial cost premium less the higher resale - and enjoy that wonderfully smooth and powerful V6.
The why is apparent to the thousands of people every year that buy Camcords. Don't worry about it.
Most people don't want a Ford. Look at the company's demise. Will soon drop to the #4 automaker from #2. Ouch.
And I'd rather do a fully loaded car next - with nav, leather, V6 I see the Accords pushing 30k like the Camrys are now. Decisions, decisions... I'm just watching to see what the next Accord and TSX shape up to be in production form now. :shades:
A Fusion IMO would be a great value buy if they could match the pricing of Sonatas. Yet even the Sonata has available ESC which no Fusion offers.
I believe it was once said that "size doesn't mater." I think in this case, PROFITABILITY matters. BMW isn't even on the list for the top X manufactuers, yet they seem pretty well respected and holy cow, they are profitable.
Yea but BMW was never the #1 or #2 auto manufacturer in the US. They're not hemorrhaging market share or assets right now either.
Why doesn't Ford do something different in the market instead of trying to take on the CamCords and Corrolvics?
Go littler, like they do overseas.
I don't think the Fusion is the answer.
Case closed.
Why is that? Too many racers crashing? Too many theives stealing? Her driving record is perfection just like mine.
it lists maintenance on an '04 escape limited at over $1800 in year 2.
insurance doesn't line up either. i have high limits and 500 deductible. the reason i looked it was when i was looking into buying one, one of the years had a number over 2400!
i just went to the maintenance schedule for 15-30k. even at $60 for the 18,21,24,27 services, plus the $250 30k service, you still total about $500.
tco is a tool, but i wouldn't take it as gospel.
I looked at the TCO months ago, so I don't remember the numbers, but they were way out of wack regarding taxes and insurance for my area. Plus the depreciation was figured based upon the MSRP, not the street price.
Anyway, insurance itself can be tricky, while the type of car serves as of factor, your driving style, history and others maybe more important to consider...not included with TCO, of course
i guess edmunds now has a little project line up the numbers in tco and tips & advice/maintenance.
i just suggested for them how to do that in 'forums software'.
It's probably impossible for Edmund's to keep up to date on CT car taxes.
Under a "changes I'd like to see" heading, like Edmund's has for cars, I'd like to eliminate the tax, insurance and licensing fees. Plus MSRP doesn't appear to be based on the street price of a car. I fianced $10,826 of an OTD price of $17,826. How meaningful is the finance charge compared to someone who financed more or less than I did?
Not faulting Edmund's, but these are all general averages and need to be taken with a grain of salt as you said.
How can Edmonds predict Sonata's resale value 5 years after one buys one when its a new model? That's ridiculous considering 50% of Sonata sales are to car rental agencies.
Plus some cars you're putting up with for 5 years and others you're enjoying. Accords satisy the latter. I don't care which ones are the former.
If I can't afford the difference between one car over another to maintaine for 10 years, I should not be buying a new car.
Car's values years into the future can't be predicted with certainty as High or Low because of changes in the environment. Remember the high value placed on Enron stock...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't have any experience with Dodge cars, midsize or otherwise, but I do have experience with their minivans. In 1994, I bought a new Grand Caravan ES with the 3.3L V6 - which was used in some of their cars (I believe). My very first mechanical problem developed after 12 1/2 years and 161,000 miles of ownership. Not bad, really, would you think? No other parts were ever replaced, including the water pump, alternator, etc. In fact, at that age and mileage, it was also on its original stainless steel exhaust system.
I firmly believe with the vast majority of today's cars, if one truly takes care of the car in accordance with the owner's manual severe service schedule, the car will provide long, and lasting, service.
maybe they could add loan value into equation there somewhere.
i know edmunds is always looking to improve their tools.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
i hated driving some of those cars, but none of them ever had any major problems.
But for me, 166 hp is more than enough. Also, I put about 25k a year on the road (though at the moment it is split pretty evenly between my 06 and my 96). Secondly, I'm a college student, so $25 a month is a bigger deal to me than some with better incomes. I certainly understand, though, the merits of the V6 if you make, say, $60,000 a year vs. working part time and in college.
Oh, and, I got a certain amount to spend, and it could have been an SE V6 Fusion, a Sonata V6, or an Accord I4. I chose the I4 Accord because it was just that good.
I was comparing like-optioned cars in the post to which you replied. An SE Fusion is not even close to an EX-V6 Accord in terms of equipment. Nor is a standard-equipment SEL Fusion. You must add options to match it, which I did.
An SE-V6 Accord with VSA has an MSRP of $23,550. The Fusion AWD starts at over $24,000 according to Ford's website.
I think what one of our dear members (not necessarily you, explorerx4) forgets is that someone's real-world price in the south is not always the same in the Northwest, Northeast, etc...
I remember when the boards were full of $24k EX-V6 Accord at last year's 2006 clearance, and he swore nobody could go cheaper than $25,888. Where he/she lived, that may have been true. For many of us, it simply wasn't.
you are in college, you work part time, and you have 2 cars. it is not going to add up for most people.
you could save a lot more than $25 a month if you could find a way to drive less than 25k per year.
just some friendly advice from a guy who got the senior citizen discount at the grocery store last week.