Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

imidazol97

>the current Buick LaCrosse shares a huge amount with the previous LeSabre and Regal.

I don't find the laCrosse shares much from the leSabre. The 3800 in a different tune/torque state.

>take the puny 4 they put in the base Caprice and simmilar) 3400lb

What 4 cylinder in the Caprice? What year? The largest car I recall having a 2.5 l. 4-cyl was the Century A-body group. And the 87 I had was quite peppy up to 85.

plekto

My bad. I meant the Malubu. 2.2L Ecotec... You gotta be kidding. The car is a midsize sedan and 140HP isn't going to cut it.

Or the Lucerne. The 3800 is woefully underpowered in it. The only engine they should offer with it is the V8.

thegraduate

Nobody ever said much about the Taurus... a full-size car with a standard 153 horsepower engine (was 145hp from 1996-1999).

3.0 liters and 145 horsepower... 1996 must have been hard times at Ford. The Accord with a 2.2L 4-cylinder achieved the same horsepower, and offered an optional V6 with 170 hp.

ontop

BMW Z4, X5 and X3 were all DESIGNED in Germany but were BUILT here in South Carolina.

You sure they build the X5 in Spartanburg? I know they build the other 2 there.

ontop

Even today Ford's V6s can be anemic. Look at the 6 cyl in the Ranger. The 3.0 develops 148 hp.

captain2

actually a slightly restyled Lucerne is currently being made in China with a 4 banger. Buick is a 'status' car over there but guess there are so many people over there, that nobody has to get anywhere in a hurry! The Lucerne might be much better with the 3.6, now up to 275 hp in the Enclave SUV

thegraduate

Yeah, I believe it is the same Flex-Fuel 3.0L from the Taurus, actually, with minor tweaking.

louiswei

Yes.

Spartanburg South Carolina

Scroll down to the "Economy" Section.

However, you were partially right, the X3 is assembled in Austria instead of South Carolina.

captain2

to be fair the Duratech was a relatively competitive engine back in the early 90's - the engine to avoid that pushrod 'Vulcan' that preceded it('develops' 148 hp an amusing thought because you wouldn't want to actually be in the car when it did). Still used in all those Tauri you generally see at Hertz, and sold all over for 10-12k for an '06 model - and then Ford wonders why better efforts such as the Fusion/500 don't hold their value either. But, even today the 'new' (by Ford's standards) DT is anemic compared to what you find in Camcordimas.

pat

Interesting, timely article: Finding Great Perks for Hybrid Buyers.

captain2

Flex-fuel, what a crock - generally only working on folks from Minnesota that have bought into this whole PC thing and where the subsidies have 'encouraged' distribution of the stuff. 25%+ or so mileage/operating cost penalty that is not usually mentioned when these vehicles are shamelessly promoted. It is after all simply a ruse to circumvent CAFE regulations. And not anything really new either - the first Model Ts were 'flex fuel'.

lilengineerboy

I am with you on that Captain. Sure, when its subsidized its 25% cheaper but that is because you get 25% less mpg. I actually thought it was more like 1/3 less, but I am not positive.

thegraduate

Agreed. You could always tell which Rangers and Tauri were 3.0L Vulcan-equipped however, because of the flex-fuel badges on the side under the outside driver's rear-view mirror.

cajuncycler

It amazes me how many people buy a car because of it's status factor instead of just whether or not is a good solid car. I now own my first Hyundai and surprize it is a Sonata. Sorry but but the car isn't weird (Like most Hondas)Reliable, solid, fun transportation that cost me loads less than a weird looking Honda. You go drive your "status" car, you make the higher payments every month. I have much more money in my pocket at the end of the day. And don't give me that crap about trade in value. I keep my cars for a lot of years. I'm not like those who like purpetual car payments.

w9cw

Yes, the 3.0L Ford Vulcan pushrod 12 valve V6 is underpowered to be sure. But, it is a very reliable and bullet-proof engine, and less costly to maintain (the engine, not the AXOD 4-speed automatic transmission) than most OHC engine designs, including many Asian designs.

explorerx4

some cars are not about peak horsepower, the engines are designed with torque being more important.
speaking of 0-60, some vehicles shift once and others twice by the time they ge tto 60 mph. life doesn't stop there.

booyahcramer

Good for you. I happen to not care for the Sonata. There's hundreds of thousands just like me. I didn't say it wasn't a good car. Said its quirky. You didn't buy a Honda. I'm not busting on you for that.

Hyundai's sales are dropping. Their initial luster seems to be wearing off. Except at the airport rental lots.

Many folks don't have to pinch pennies either when buying a car. Hyundai has to price their cars less or people won't buy them when there's a Camcord for the same price.

louiswei

Honda a status car?
Toyota a status car?

You've got to be kidding me. If you want to start with your "status car" speech I think you are definitely in the wrong place. You should try the "Entry Level Luxury Sports Sedan" board.

jaxs1

There is a similarity. Many people see it.
When you see the pictures side by side, you can see the differences in the head and taillights etc., but the coupe's overall look reminds many of the IS when there isn't a photo of the IS right next to it.

louiswei

What?

Just make sure I got this right, so you were saying...

When the coupe is next to an IS, they don't look alike, but
When the coupe is NOT next to an IS, they do.

What?

Different headlight, different fender, different bumper, different tail, the IS has simple lines but the coupe has busier ones and last but not least, the coupe's hood doesn't have IS' "bump". With all those differences and you are saying they look alike?

What?

explorerx4

if someone told the accord coupe was a toyota/lexus, i would believe it. toyota gave up that segment. if their car looked like that one, they would still be in it.

louiswei

Okay, I am with you on that. So you are saying the coupe looks good enough to be a Lexus, right? I totally agree with you, I think the coupe is great looking too.

However, that does not mean that it looks like an IS. Looking good enough to be a Lexus has NOTHING to do with being look like an IS.

neteng101

But, it is a very reliable and bullet-proof engine,

Its an iron block, the damm thing rusts all over the coolant channels. The ignition coil on mine had problems way before 100k miles on the engine. There was still a problem accelerating under load that could have been the engine... it would lose all power for 2-3 seconds. Might be the fuel injectors (which had been cleaned multiple times). Bullet proof I was hoping, but I'd be more glad to put bullets into it by the time I got rid of the car. Which was before it reached 100k miles. What a total POS of reliability!

The Duratec is even worse - people have had spark plugs melt into the engine block. That is the basis of the engine that is now the Fusion V6.

Ford engines... :sick:

I forgot to add - the power is pretty adequate in a Taurus though with the Vulcan... it ain't earth shattering, but it beats econoboxes of past (like the '94 Corolla I used to have) for merging/driving on highways. But that was only until things started going wrong... I could never know what it was going to do next if I didn't go gentle on the gas. And it felt pretty comfortable cruising around 70... could do more, but the engine noise/smoothness/higher RPM/etc gets to you, it isn't just cruising at 80 but working out some.

explorerx4

i wrote toyota/lexus. it could be either. it could also be honda. the rear quarter area does look like a civic coupe. that looks like a previous saturn design.
based on the previous accord, i think it a better looking.
need to see a real one, pictures can be deceiving.

jeffyscott

A convenience, some peace of mind (and I'll still contend a safety margin) .... The 4 also should handle BETTER, less overall weight and better vehicle balance.

Yes and I'll contend that, to the extent there is any difference at all, the better handling 4 adds more to safety that does the excess power of a V6.

jeffyscott

My impression is the duratec has been reliable...not the vulcan and not the 3.8L (sieve) that, I believe, is a variation of the 3.0 L vulcan. Ford dealer wanted about $3000 to replace gaskets in mine (I had the work done at tech college, instead).

explorerx4

plenty of indivdual vehicles have mechanical problems.
as toyota and honda are now finding out, when you sell a lot of a vehicle and there is a problem, the recall numbers get big and you hear more complaints.

louiswei

Lexus, Lexus/Toyota, Acura, Acura/Honda, whatever. IMO, it's good enough looking to be a BMW. As a matter of fact I think it's one of the best looking coupes out there, far better looking than BMW's 6-series.

explorerx4

i guess we just like different car designs. the 5/6 series look like some kind of mitsubishi to me(i.e. not german).

neteng101

Keep in mind I was talking purely engines and not drivetrains, airbags, etc. Toyota has had sludge issues though. Honda engines are typically rock solid and the mechanical problems tend to occur elsewhere in the car.

bhmr59

Sonata sales dropped in December (and probably will in January) because Hyundai decided to lower the volume of its rental fleet sales.

jimmy81

Go ahead and keep drinking the Kool Aid about Hyundai's lower sales is from reducing fleet sales. Since when does a car company that's trying to rebuild it's sullied reputation for cheap cars decide to lower its sales?

Spin it how you want. Lower sales are lower sales.

Shoot - even Honda's sales are down. You don't hear them trying to spin it with some silly reasoning.

zzzoom6

are we really on to duratech bashing again? all this talk about being underpowered when the mazda6 6 cylinder with a mtx has been published in major car mags as doing mid 6 seconds 0-60 times. ok, it's 210 HP is less than many in this class, but it still does have a great deal of torque at lower rpms which makes it very fun to drive. and at least you don't hear nearly as much about torque steer as you do with some of the other more powerful v-6's.

and btw...go tell the owner of a Noble M400 that their duratec 3 liter is slow. how many other engines in the midsize sedan class do you find have been chosen to power an exotic?

don't get me wrong though...i think having a nissan, honda, or even the hyundai engine in my mazda6 would definitely be a nice improvement, but I'd never sacrifice the better handling and braking of the mazda6 to get one of these more powerful engines.

the designers at porsche and cosworth did a good job of designing the duratec and even after being in service for many years it still is an integral part of some cars that are very fun to drive.

thegraduate

My father is currently renting a Hyundai Sonata V6 while on a business trip. I asked him about it, and he had this to say:

"It's plenty zippy, which is good, but it's no Honda. It feels a rung lower than my Accord did, but its cheaper, so I guess thats expected. I would have traded my Accord for it though. It has a power-window problem in the driver's door."

For the record, I haven't seen the car, and it IS a rental. Dad's Accord he compares to is his old 2005 EX I-4 which he recently traded for a 2007 Civic EX. He kept saying it felt "a rung lower" and cheaper than the Honda. Not really sure what he was referring to exactly though.

He did like the engine power a lot, but I should mention the only two V6 engines he has ever owned were a Chrylser LeBaron (3.0L, 141 hp) and my parents' first joint car purchase, a Ford LTD Sedan (not sure what engines were offered in this, anybody know?).

rockylee

What ? is their something erong with that ?????

Rocky

thegraduate

Nope. I like the thought of owning a really big truck (like an F-250 Harley Davidson Edition) and also love driving my Accord. How whacko is that?

w9cw

neteng101 wrote: "it's an iron block, the damn thing rusts all over the coolant channels."

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a cast-iron block, as cars have used them for decades (at least a century now!). The problem with rust forming in the coolant channels is due to poor cooling system maintenance on the part of the owner. Keep the coolant/water (preferably distilled water) at a 50/50 mix, flush and change every 2 years or 24K, and you won't have any rust forming in a cast-iron block. The cooling system is one of the most neglected service items on any car.

midwesttrader

I drive a Mazda6 with the 6 cylinder and a five-speed. I agree that it has plenty of power for me. I disagree with your comment on torque. My car does not have much off the line and doesn't push me into my seat with authority until at least 3 or 4K rpms. I have never dumped the clutch from a standing start though.

alpha01

Neteng - Your observation is probably very accurate. Toyota, in my experience, weights production somewhat heavily in the first year of a new model toward more heavily optioned cars. For example, in the first year of the Camry redesigns, higher run rates of V6s and XLEs are produced, and fewer are sent to fleets. Toward the end, as noted in Car and Driver last month, as much as 84% of Camrys are 4 cylinder models and fleet sales are used to keep figures up.

One interesting note re: rentals. The '06 Hyundai Sonatas that Avis in Milwaukee and Chicago use seem to be wearing well, but are getting high in mileage, so I wonder if they will be replaced with the new ones. There are a ton of Sonatas in the fleet. Interestingly, while in Detroit for the show two weeks ago, I noticed that Budget had a TON of brand new, as yet unused (just delivered) basic Altimas. I hadn't realized that Nissan was going to use fleet sales to a greater degree with this gen, and right now thats just a hypothesis, but it sure seemed that way. I counted at least 3-4 dozen. Toyota continues to place Camry SEs in fleets, and last I read that rate was about 8-9% of Camry sales.

~alpha

neteng101

Coolant had been power flushed and it was murky again in no time. Tried this like 3 times till I gave up on it. The original coolant had at most 50k miles. That's the recommended change interval for the original factory fill anyways. Give me an aluminium block engine anyday.

03accordman

There is a similarity. Many people see it.
When you see the pictures side by side, you can see the differences in the head and taillights etc., but the coupe's overall look reminds many of the IS when there isn't a photo of the IS right next to it.

So what you are saying is that the Accord Coupe looke like something you would perceive to be designed by Lexus, because, obviously, if two models don't have any similarity next to each other, they really can't be all that same..

w9cw

It all depends on the formulation of coolant used. If you were using DEX-COOL coolant, this may have been the cause of your problems. Honda almost had a fit (no pun intended) when it discovered that GM intended to use DEX-COOL in the Honda V6 used in the Saturn Vue.

There are far better long-life coolant formulations available, as DEX-COOL, and the old "neon green stuff," are the cause of many cooling system problems. But, all of this discussion is better suited for another forum.

Sorry to hear you had bad luck.

booyahcramer

Coolant had been power flushed and it was murky again in no time.

Had the same problem with my 96 Taurus. Always smelled coolant with that car. Flushed it twice and the coolant was always dirty. What a joke. When I can just buy an Accord and never have to be concerned with this kind of issue, why would I ever buy another Ford?

Altho Ford may be gone soon anyway. How many $14 billion loss years can you string together before you throw in the towel?

akirby

"I had an accord and the transmission locked up on me on the highway at 60 mph. Why would I ever buy another Honda?"

"I had a 99 Odyssey that was recalled 4 times. Why would I ever buy another Honda?"

jimmy81

You gotta be kidding me. You think Ford's reliability can stand up to Honda's? The rest of the automotive market apparently doesn't think that (nor me - I too have been burned by Ford and not by Honda) considering the huge losses Ford's taking.

neteng101

Try this on for perspective...

Exploding gas tanks in Crown Vics - police and taxi cabs, resulting in deaths.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060101/AUTO01/601010379/1148- - -

Hundreds of people dead from the Ford Explorer tire issue...

http://www.firestone-tire-recall.com/pages/overview.html

Dead people driving Fords. I can't think of anything in the annals of Toyota/Honda recalls that can come close or even any that has resulted in actual deaths.

Oh yeah - and my Taurus had a recall on the front coil springs, they could fail and rupture the tire causing a blowout leading to a crash. All they did is install a shield for it... if the coil spring did break on me, it was still going to destabilize the car, just not as bad as a tire blowout.

pat

We've established that stuff happens. We all know that any manufacturer can and does produce problem vehicles along with all of the "perfect" ones.

Instead of squabbling over anecdotal evidence, let's talk about the cars themselves.

goodegg

Ford's disclosure of its $12.7 billion loss for 2006 could put a big hrut on the R&D expenditures for upcoming years. With sales down and creditors not likely to lend Ford much money at better than junk rates, where's the money gonna come from to finance the huge price tag for R&D, the lifeline for the company's future.

A viscious cycle. Ford's unlikely to issue new stock to raise money. It appears the only way to do it is to cut the company in half or less.

The Fusion needs some tweaks. Where's that money gonna come from?

pat

For the "where's that money gonna come from?" discussion, please visit the relevant topics over on the Automotive News & Views board.

The last time we got into the ins and outs of manufacturer quality here we ended up with an extended free-for-all that got the discussion shut down.

The features and attributes of the cars fitting the criteria are the topic here, please. Manufacturer issues can be debated in the appropriate place, of which this is not one. See the link posted in the beginning of this post.

goodegg

Wow - a whole nother board I was unaware of. Thanks.