Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Once production of the Taubles ends, I think we will see more Fulans and Fiverrys in fleets.
I bet 12% is accurate. Last thing I heard was 14% for 2005 Camrys (Camries?), so between 10 and 15% is probably right.
AS far as Accord rentals...I've honestly never seen one, although there is a company near my school which has a fleet of Civics (about a dozen). I've seen several Elantras with the Enterprise sticker on them, and one 2006 Sonata, but not that many relative to the old model.
It is several people's opinion that the more low-cost fleet sales a car has, the less resale-value it carries. Resale is a relevan topic, in my opinion, and fleets have an affect on this.
Enterprise, a large rental car company, is selling an '05 Sonata GLS with 17+k miles for $15,400 in Phoenix. I can't find an '05 for sale by Enterprise in CT. I paid $16,700 for my '05 GLS Special Value as a new car last April. True, Enterprise's value is not trade-in value, but compare retail (my price) vs Enterprise's retail, resale, price and there's only $1300 difference.
Can someone explain how the number of units sold to fleets drives down the used car value?
With thousands of same-year used 'program cars' on the market in Birmingham, it was obvious nobody in their right-mind would pay anywhere near full price for this car. After all, around Christmas of this year, "Long-Lewis Ford" of Birmingham was advertising Taurus' with CD, A/C, etc...2005 models with less than 10k miles on them, and they were priced at $10,990.
Now, take this, and keep in mind that people still bought Tauri in 2005. How are you going to sell your car that was $17-18k (after $5,000 in rebates and Cash back) a year ago without losing $7,000 value on it? You can't because of all of the fleet cars coming off of program, and governments and local companies in the area using these cars selling them for cheap (because they bought them at wholesale prices). They may have paid $14,000, so selling the cars at $10-11k does not cause a big loss like it does to the private shopper/seller.
This is my interpretation of it. I have nothing against the Hyundai or Camry, b/c their numbers sold to fleets won't affect the value to the extent a Crown Vic (80% fleet) or Neon buyer will.
When there are 200 1 to 2 year old Tauruses available used in a city (coming back from fleet sales) and you need to sell yours, you have to sell it very cheap to attract any buyers.
Camrys are not sold to fleets at the same massive volume as a Ford Taurus (which is probably sold more to fleets than to private buyers).
- Price / volume relationship
- Incentive and fleet strategy
- Remarketing strategy
- Product competitiveness (relative to brand strength / performance)
- Lifecycle management (sales, freshenings, and redesigns)
Honda is the non-luxury brand winner and Toyota is the runner up for the third year in a row. Honda's leading residual ranking is supported by MSRPs positioned close to transaction prices (limited incentives) and negligible rental fleet sales.
ALG excerpt
You're also right that historical vehicle performance influences the resale value to. They address that in the article.
Enterprise has a "no-haggle" price, meaning take it or leave it. [I was told by an Enterprise employee that they pay about $12K for a $19K Taurus, so your figures are pretty close.]
Dealership used car ads offer the '05 Sonata for not much less than I paid for a new '05, in some cases,even higher price. The dealership I bought from in FL is asking over $2K more than I paid, for the base GLS, not the Special Value. [Special Value was essentially an LX without leather or power seat, but has special alloy wheels.] See www.o'brienteam.com. Then check Naples, FL for their used car prices.
If the '05 Sonata, as a used car, is selling for such high prices compared to it's actual price new, how do fleet sales drive down its value as a used car? And, what affect will that have on the '06 Sonata?
That was my question. Some said Sonata sales were inflated by fleet sales and would kill it's used car value. I haven't seen that and was asking for an explanation.
Sorry, I vote for a moritorium veto. But as a concession, I won't spoil the Civic vs. Prius result, which appears as part of the same article.
~alpha
Well considering the difference there is less than $500, I'll take the more complete feeling car in handling, fit and finish for my $350. You (other readers) may prefer more options per dollar rather than overall packaging as I do.
**Diclaimer: I shouldn't have to point out that the statement above is opinion only, but I know someone will come out of the woodwork to point that out if I don't, so let it be known that is my opinion, and while it may agree with yours, it may not.
How it drives is important, how you feel driving is also important. However, if you plan on getting something new in 3-4-5 years, resale is also of high importance and people should consider it before their purchase. Additionally, they should consider whether a low price tag makes up for it. Sometimes it does, sometimes it really doesn't as well. Being a smart buyer means considering a lot of things.
~driver
More power
Better mileage
Smart Key
Bluetooth
More powerful stereo (440 watts v. 120 watts)
Manual rear sunshade
Autodim mirrow /w compass
Knee airbag
Tire pressure monitoring system
40/20/40 split reclining rearseat (no split on Accord)
2006 Accord EX V6 auto with Nav: $29,850
XM radio
6 disc CD changer (4 disc on Camry)
17" rims (16" on Camry)
--------------------------------------
Let me know if I'm missing anything.
It seems to me that those extra features on the Camry are well worth the extra $1300.
Remember when everyone flipped out b/c the Camry had a Navi system in 2002? The Accord quickly topped the Camry in terms of interior design (though exterior wasn't really an issue).
For now, though, as an Accord driver I'll say, that it looks like Toyota wins in the feature department! I wonder what comparable money from my EX 4-cyl Auto (cloth) would buy me in a Camry. $22000 is what I gave for it. (w/bluebook value on our trade in, so I don't count that as a negotiated loss).
I'd say the Accord's are best compared to SE Camry's in the Handling/Ride dept, true?
~alpha
And please.. don't come back with the typical response of the Sonata, Ford, whichever would never make it 100,000 miles story... Get out on the net, read in other rooms. All car brands are making the miles... Cheers...
I don't see Ford, VW, Chevrolet, etc... currently matching Honda's and Toyota's ranking in CR and JD powers.
Saying, "All car brands are making the miles", is a little to bold at this time.
Some people have had bad experiences with GM, Ford, VW and other companies in the past. True, some have had bad experiences with Honda and Toyota as well...but for years, particularly during the 1970's and 1980's, folks got so disgusted with GM and Ford that they turned to Honda, Nissan and Toyota and have not looked back.It will be TOUGH for GM and Ford in particular to gain those customers back.
My mother, for example used to drive a Chevy Vega way before my birth as well as a Ford Escort. The Escort was her last "domestic" car because she got rid of it for a Civic back in 1983. The Civic never gave her a problem..so she stuck with Honda...eventually buying a 1984 Accord, 1992 Accord, 1995 Passport and 2003 Honda Odyssey. She is in the market again for a new car and guess what car she is going to get? Another Honda..rather it be the Pilot, Accord or another Odyssey.It's hard to break owner loyalty if a certain brand has been good to you. My mother is only a simple example of WHY Hondas, Toyotas and to an extent Nissans sell so well.GM and Ford are going to have a tough time breaking into these segments because for years all folks have recommended were Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans and for good reason..because they have been good cars.
The simple difference between where GM was in the 1970s and 80s compared to how Toyota, Honda and Nissan are now is the fact that these companies keep IMPROVING upon their cars. Back in the 1970s and 80s, GM and Ford along with Chrysler allowed the Japanese to take over the market.
You won't see that happening with Toyota or Honda.
Further, GM's pricing may be coming down now...but before the sticker slashing starting taking place the cars were too expensive for what they were. Sure rebates and other incentives were available, but consumers were turned off by the pricing.
Basically GM and Ford have to FIRST..get people into their showrooms to look at their products. If they can't at least get NEW people who haven't always brought their products they basically fail at gaining new consumers.
For example..Hyundai is doing an excellent job right now of getting new people into their showrooms because the Sonata offers so much for so little. The Fusion is a pretty good car and is better in many ways than the current Camry or Accord. But that won't last long...the new Camry hits lots this week..and before long their will be a new Altima and in a year and a half a new Accord.
See what I'm getting at? True, the domestics have improved steadily, but once they do improve, its time for other cars in the segment to get redesigns as well.
True, there will be those who buy nothing but GM and buy nothing but Ford..but what GM and Ford has to work on is getting those who buy imports into their dealerships..and those first time buyers to buy their products.
If they can do that..THEN Honda, Toyota and Nissan have something to worry about.
And on the same token..its gonna be TOUGH for Toyota, Nissan and Honda to break into the full-size truck market because GM and Ford in particular have always made good trucks.
Compare street prices not sticker prices.
But who knows? With the boomers retiring a new segment could arise that starts a whole new 'war', like mini's or crossovers.
Actually, I'll compare what I want. If you want to compare street prices, then be my guest.
A street price comparison is much more relevant to someone getting the car right now, obviously. An MSRP comparison is more relevant as a general tool to measure a car's value over time.
A street price comparison will ALWAYS disadvantage a new model car. Heck, even the Sonata sold at MSRP for a month or so. Now you can get one for $4000 off MSRP. When the 2008 Accord comes out, it'll sell at MSRP too. By then, the Camry will be selling near invoice.
There isn't any. You'll have to ask the manufacturers for that and something tells me they won't give it to you.
I doubt a mere statement like, "Get out on the net, read in other rooms", is enough to motivate a consumer to try a new brand. Not to say no one in these boards have credibility, but we should always take everything with a grain of salt.
I'd rather put my trust on a reputable source like CR or JD powers, than a forums board. Even then, sources like CR and JD powers may have flaws.
The biggest factor I found that influence consumers purchases are personal experiences. I know many people who have built on going trusts with brands.
I think you contradicted yourself once or twice in there. Were you maybe just trying to tell us to research thoroughly before buying and don't rely on just one source of info? :confuse:
A street price comparison will ALWAYS disadvantage a new model car.
Is there any rule of thumb as to how long a new model is likely to sell at or above MSRP, for example the first six months after going on sale? Or is there too much variation to generalize?
I think it's too hard to generalize. Popular cars like hybrids might remain near MSRP for a long time.
But with a high-volume mainstream car like the Camry, discounts will start soon. It also depends on the model though. Models with nav are usually harder to discount, for most cars.
Krzy
It just depends on what the supply and depend is.
I do like the internet and seeing real world car experiences that people have had. For the most part people don't complain about their vehicle if its running fine. I feel a good 90 percent of complaints are valid here at Edmunds. Most people are not going to take the time to compliment, they will take time to complain. You do get your others that love to bash a certain car brand.
I moved your post to our Passat 2006+ discussion since it was more appropriate for either that or the Passat 2005 and earlier topic. Let me know (pat AT Edmunds.com) if I guessed wrong.
Here's a link to where it is now: chadz1969, "Volkswagen Passat 2006+" #1376, 1 Mar 2006 1:45 pm
If I were to buy in a few years, I might consider a two year old Azera over a similar Avalon.
Just like the new Kia Sedona minivan. Pricing them in the 30s? At that price you can get a Odyssey or Sienna. Why suffer with the Kia thing with that price tag? Rebates - here they come.
Do you know that Toyota made about $15 billion profit in 2005? Most came from the US sale. Camry has a very high profit margin in a way like big 3 SUV in a few years ago. The same is true for Accord. Camry and Accord are over-priced. The high resale value of SUV is history. The same may happen to Accord and Camry. By pricing Sonata reasonably and offering incentives, Hyundai still makes reasonable profit.
Not denying they build a better car these days, altho I'd never send em a penny. Just seems they're a nationalistic company, and that appears protectionist and propped up.
The Japanese gov't still protects its companies with currency intervention on a daily basis.
The Sonatas sales for February remain strong, but still, as pointed out before, LOTSA incentives, and still no Fleet % has been shown....
~alpha
Agreed. It's just funny when people talk of Hyundai as if they're the only car company receiving government support.
The Sonatas sales for February remain strong...
Yes, I agree "strong" is a good way to describe a 41% increase in sales compared to year ago numbers.
~alpha