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Hyundai Sonata vs. Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry vs. Ford Fusion
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I do think the Fusion/Milan will take off but for would need another good one in the following years.
I think GM is showing some progress the events of the past few days not withstanding.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Comments like so-and-so is a POS, no it's not, yes it is, don't really get us anywhere useful. Let's try to get back to some factual comparisons of what we see as positives and negatives of any or all of these vehicles and leave the gratuitous pejoratives aside, okay?
Can we get back to the cars??
"have you done/had on recent offerings from Korea before you reached that thoroughly educated conclusion? "
let me ask you this, have ever tried any product of Hyundai/Kia? PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS. You can never accuse me of that.
let me repeat that again Hyundai/Kia are POS, and here's my proof. Chew on it:
http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005089
http://www.jdpower.com/awards/industry/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=860
http://www.jdpower.com/awards/industry/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=749
http://www.jdpower.com/awards/industry/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=692
http://www.jdpower.com/awards/industry/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=585
Now about that Sta. Fe and Santa Fe, they're the same and dont me tell otherwise. I'll educate you if you want. Santa is spanish for Saint and Sta. is short for Santa in Spanish , the same as St. is short for Saint in english. Get it?
Do you have any study or survey or figures to give me refuting my statements? Ignorance and shortsightedness isnt accident its a choice. You chose to be ignorant and shortsighted, I can never do anything for you.
http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005089
http://www.jdpower.com/awards/industry/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=860
http://www.jdpower.com/awards/industry/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=749
http://www.jdpower.com/awards/industry/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=692
http://www.jdpower.com/awards/industry/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=585
You said "25-35 years old refuse to buy the Camry". How many percentage of Camry buyers are 25-35 yrs old ? You said 18%. I rest my case. Now you said the focus of Fusion marketing is the 25-39 yrs old. Now tell me now, do you have sufficient info as to how many percentage of Fusion buyer are 25-39 yrs old? If you do. Is it more than the 18% of Camry buyers who are 25-39 yrs old?
The thing I dont like about what you said is "25-35 yrs old refuse to buy the Camry. As if nobody in that age range is a Camry buyer when its not so. Its just not the biggest percentage of their buyer but 18% percent isnt small considering the volume of sales for the Camry. Let's consider just for the sake of argument that 100% of Mazda 6 sales are from the 25-39 years old. Will the sales figure of Mazda 6 overcome the 18% sales figure of Camry for the 25-39 yrs old bracket? Big "No". Now will the Fusion which is bigger and heavier provide more driving isnpiration to consumer than the mazda 6? Big "No". Then how can you say that the fusion will attract more 25-39 yrs old buyers from the Camry when the more sportier mazda 6 cant?
"Thirdly how are Hyundai POS except the Sante Fe?"
Did I said "Probably"? I remember I said that.
Here's a quote from www.canadiandriver.com reviewer:
"But styling concerns shouldn't distract us from the Avalon's superb new platform and powertrain, which will be shared with the next-generation Camry and other Toyotas. The Avalon is a trailblazer for this new platform and powertrain and I'm sure we'll be hearing a lot more about it in the future."
Here's the link:
http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdrives/05avalon.htm
Here's another link stating that the 2005 Avalon is an all new platform.
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/sedans/0503_toyota_avalon/
Here is another statement from Inside Line (Edmunds.com)
"More of the same formula — roominess and high quality — can be expected for this sixth-generation Camry, along with an American-made hybrid version. Unexpected is an "aggressive" look to replace the Camry's often criticized bland styling. Sources say the Camry borrows cues, including the aggressive front end, from Toyota's European-sold Avensis, combined with a sloping back and short deck.
The 2007 Camry rides on a new platform, sources say. Engines are improved versions of the current 2.4-liter four and 3.3-liter V6."
Here's the link.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=106974
Now where's yours? All I'm seeing is you making statement refuting it. Where is the supporting info or link? I'm waiting for weeks now.
I think its pretty much a given that we'll see the upgraded 2.4L with variable valve timing on both exhaust and intake, and I expect it to yield the same SAE certified figures as the new RAV- 166 hp and 165 foot pounds, and better drivability throughout the rev range due to the better breathing. Assuming the new car doesnt increase weight so much, it should be enough to notice. AND I sure hope the redline and shiftpoints have increased a bit- theres no reason this engine can't hit greater than 6250 a it currently does. (Upshifts under full throttle through the first several gears of the 2.4L 5A current version occur just shy of 6 grand)
~alpha
Lets say for the sake of argument that that percentage reflects the Camry's since that is their best seller.
let say again for the sake of argument that "all" Mazda 6 (where the Fusion is derived )sales are from the 20-35 years old bracket , its not exactly the truth but for the sake argument I'm willing to accept it.
Onto the sales figures of 2004.
Camry 2004 sales = 426K units
18% of Camry = 426K * 0.18 = 76.68K units
Mazda 6 2004 sales= 72K units
That proves that even if we consider all Mazda 6 buyers are in the 20-35 years old, its still smaller in numbers compared to Camry's 20-35 years old.
I dont think that the Fusion is sportier than the 6's. How do you expect them to grab the 20-35 market share from Camry then?
And correction, the guy was the director for marketing for the Fusion. JWT is the advertising firm he works for. This week there are aditional articles on Fords news site that back that theory up. I've given you where they are. Again I am not your research assistant. I think the guy in charge of marketing the vehicle knows more about its target demographic than you, who doesn't even work for Ford period. But that is just me and my common sense.
And that 18%, is the lowest of several manufacturers for that age segment. You have Toyota saying that they consider it a problem. That would imply that it is a problem for them. Again, just my common sense.
In another surprise, the magazine found South Korean automaker Hyundai Motor Co.'s mid-size Sonata sedan to be the most reliable car in the U.S. last year, with just two problems reported for every 100 cars sold.
"That's quite dramatic and shows that Hyundai has really made a big effort," said David Champion, Consumer Reports' auto testing director. "It used to be a joke to have Hyundai and reliability in the same sentence."
Best family sedan--Accord Hybrid
Brand with fewest mechanical problems--Subaru
Most Reliable Vehicle--Hyuandai Sonata
Best SUV with 3 row seating--Honda Pilot
Best Luxury Sedan--Lexus LS430
Best Small SUV--Subaru Forester
Best Small Sedan--Ford Focus
Best Upscale Sedan--Acura TL
Best Midsize SUV--Lexus RX330
Best Green Car--Toyota Prius
Most Fun to Drive--Subaru Impreza WRX
Brand Problems per 100 vehicles
1 Subaru 8
2 Honda 9
3 Acura 10
4 Toyota 10
5 Hyundai 11
6 Infiniti 11
7 Lexus 11
8 Audi 12
9 Mini 13
10 Ford 15
11 Pontiac 15
12Cadillac 16
13 Chevrolet 16
14 Chrysler 16
15 GMC 16
16 Jeep 16
17 Mazda 16
18 Saab 16
19 Dodge 17
20 Mercury 17
21 Volvo 17
22 Buick 18
23 Nissan 19
24 Saturn 19
25 BMW 21
26 Volkswagen 23
27 Mercedes-Benz 25
28 Lincoln 26
So much for POS, hmm? You see, you've decided to use a very classy word to refer to someone else's $20K investment, so why don't you back it up with something better than a single source. Which BTW also happened to have awarded their IQS 2004 to hyundai Sonata, and APEAL 2005 to Kia Amanti and Sportage.
No one said that Hyundai is the most reliable cars in the market. But there are many indications that they are not only doing very decently at this point, but also climbing up that ladder with unprecedented speed.
And for the record, My family and I collectively owned a 97 Hyundai Sonata for 6 years, and the only problem that we had was with a broken master cylinder at 100,000 miles. Did I LOVE the car? nope, too boring for my taste. But was it a POS? Far from it.
Finally, Hyundai is not just a small third world company. For instance, Hyundai Heavy Industry is the world's largest ship builder with 15% share of the global market. It is also one of the most technologically advanced one. The current CEO of Hyundai Auto is a very capable, strongly focused guy that has emerged as one of the star CEO's of the industry, and many say he is delivering what he promised.
Give it a few years, and we will clearly see who has been short-sighted.
Anyway, giantkiller is just displaying how he won last week's award for "how to win friends and influence people."
Porsche makes the largest percentage improvement in its VDS score, while Hyundai experiences the largest reduction in problems reported by owners. Porsche, which ranks second among nameplates, improves 38 percent compared to 2004—a 91 PP100 improvement. Although still hovering below the industry average, Hyundai records a dramatic 115 PP100 improvement (31%).
"Hyundai experienced similar levels of improvement in the 2002 IQS, when these vehicles were new, which shows a successful effort by Hyundai in translating short-term quality improvements into higher long-term quality," said Parker. "Even though there is still room for improvement, Hyundai is a great example of an automaker that is making strides toward improving vehicle quality by paying close attention to owner feedback and designing products with both short- and long-term quality in mind."
Here are a few more third-party opinions to refute your opinion, with focus on the cars in this discussion. I have included several from your favorite source, JD Power, to make it clear that they do not share your opinion:
Sonata tops like-priced Accord and Camry:
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=106434/pageNumber=1
Sonata tops more expensive Camry - twice:
1) http://www.motortrend.com/toc/thismonth/index.html (article not posted yet, need to get the magazine for now)
2) http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=10245
Sonata top entry mid-sized sedan in JD Powers 2004 IQS; Hyundai tops Toyota and ties Honda overall:
http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2004037
Hyundai tops Honda, Acura, Nissan et. al. in JD Powers 2005 IQS; Sonata 2nd in entry mid-sized sedans, topping Accord and Camry:
http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005069
Sonata is most-appealing entry mid-sized car:
http://www.jdpower.com/awards/industry/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=788
Sonata honored with Safety Excellence Award:
http://www.carpages.co.uk/hyundai/hyundai-sonata-08-10-05.asp
I was pleasantly surprised when I drove the Sonata LX and know it'll contend in this sector. I've driven the Fusion SEL twice and was mildly impressed. I love the Accord and like what I see of the 07 Camry (check out the photos in the 07 camry discussion).But you can only drive/own 1 car at a time (at least for those of us in this price range) and I'd buy the Accord... not gonna dump on your choice. Gotta drive the cars yourself and experience everything they offer. They are all good.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
As for Ford not having desirable cars might I mention the Mustang and the GT (not that 99% of the population can afford $150k for a GT). The Fusion seems to be stirring up some excitement too. Now while I was never interested in the Focus I did rent one in Maui and while it didn't "WOW" me I was very pleased with it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Also, what site did you find those numbers? I'd like to learn more about other cars.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=108143
I think it looks fairly distinctive in the realm of Family sedans (though I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying so). Glad to see its been lowered an inch, effectively losing some of that tall greenhouse look of the last generation. Wheelbase is up fairly significantly (about 2 inches), with overall length unchanged, less overhang...
Allegedly, it'll be a 167 horse version of the current 2.4L (w/Dual VVTi) and the 3.5L....
~alpha
Price.. this is what is going to put a dent or even a break into the Accords armor for sure. Option for option a Fusion/Sonata will cost thousands less than an Accord. Toyota, can afford to discount, cut costs ect to meet competition.. The future will only tell...
Case in point. Presently there is a dealer ad for an 06 Honda Civic DX 5spd for $13,900! This thing is stripped! Is this a good value? When comparing and seeing what you can get from other manufacturers such as Hyundai, Kia, Ford, Chevy, Mazda and even Toytoa.. doesn't look like it to me...
And others' price breaking Accord? The only way for these others to "beat" the Accord is by price. And for years the Accord just keeps on going as king of the hill. And people pay the price because they want the car. Hardly a break in the armor. Value is more than price bro.
Fine use of bandwidth, guys!
Navi should be available on the '07 Camry when it shows up early next year, and there are strong rumors to the Sonata getting navi in the U.S. next year (it's already available in other countries). So that will just leave the Fusion w/o navi. It's not clear to me where navi would fit in the Fusion's dash.
I don't have a problem with a lively debate, but I do with a debate without much substance.
Here's what you ACTUALLY wrote -- not what you "remember" you wrote:
"No theyre not. Theyre just telling the truth. Except probably for the new Sta Fe, all Hyundai's and Kia's , blanket statement, are POS."
Let's talk modifiers... You put the word "probably" before the word "for" which means that except for the new Santa Fe, all Hyundais and Kias (in your opinion) are less than sterling. You also included the term "blanket statement," which means you're referring to the entire brand.
Please do not state one thing, then try to deny it or say you were misquoted in the next sentence. That's too much like an everyday hack politician.
And yes, I HAVE put my money where my mouth is. Bought a 2005 Hyundai Tucson (I know, not part of this discussion) and will soon buy a new Sonata, primarily for safety features like ESC, ABS, Traction Control, Airbags all around (including the one operation the pedals and shifter). Styling isn't a big deal for me since I keep cars until they're wheezing their last. I've had bad experiences with American-badged cars, so I'll take the rising Hyundai quality. After four times buying American cars since 1980, I am now more loyal to my wallet than to the Big Three.
As for Navi I will never get it in another car. 98% of the time I would not need it, they other 2% of the time I will use a map (only $5.00 as opposed to $2,000.00).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Sure you don't need one.........but you don't need a radio....you could whistle to yourself.....and actually you don't even need a car.....you could take the bus....or ride a bike....or walk.
Sure I don't need a radio but I use it 98% of the time I am in the car and the added expense that would be very little is worth it. And owning the car is more than worth it for it is more convenient and faster than a bike or even a bus. Can't make that claim for a $2,000.00 Navi system.
FWIW the first time I used a navi system was to try it out going from my house to a friends house. It gave me a 115 mile route that would have taken just over 1.5 hours and cost $1.35 in tolls over three interstates. That was opposed to a 78 mile 1.25 hour free trip over just one US highway.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
~alpah
The above link is a Canadian based website. Looks like the Japan market Camry gets some neat stuff, like a full complement of airbags standard, including the Lexus IS-series twin chamber passenger side frontal airbag and side curtains. (I would expect the same for the US).
Should be interesting to see how this car handles, the link states that Toyota sought to significantly improve responses by recalibrating the suspension, steering, and widening the track substantially.
The only factual inaccuracy that I can see is the statement regarding front and rear brake sizes- which is most definitely erroneous. Still, I do hope (and expect) that discs will be standard all around.
~alpha
Sonata advantages:
V6
Leather
Stability control
Traction control
Auto-dim mirror
Heated seats
Auto climate control
Better warranty
Some other knick-knacks
Honda advantages:
Moonroof
Better mileage
She is having a tough time deciding because she realizes that she gets a lot more for her money with the Sonata, but is more comfortable with Honda reputation and quality.
Any thoughts?
But the Sonata is an attractive lure in this price range. My only trepidation with the Sonata is this is a first model year product from a new plant. I'd wait for the next MY to arrrive and allow the kinks to get worked out of the 06. Plus I think the warranty thing is overrated. There are numerous exclusions in any warranty, as well as prorations, that render most of them toothless in the later years of their promise.
You could give her a few extra bucks so she can get an EXV6.....