Hyundai Sonata vs. Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry vs. Ford Fusion

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Comments

  • fiestafiesta Member Posts: 14
    Accord is good. My first car is an accord, used. I drove it with an empty radiator for half month (I knew nothing about cars at that time), nothing happened. It had some small problems, but engine was good.

    The problem is, the price tag of new accord holds me back. the top model's msrp is near 30k. If I have 30k budget, I'll look for some other cars, but not accord.

    Japanese is too greedy. If they didn't attack perl harbor, Korea, Taiwan and northeastern China is a part of Japan now.
  • oldjoeoldjoe Member Posts: 132
    Much of the quality deficiencies of GM and CD carts were manufactured in Canada. Canadian work ethisc is a lot different than those of us in the USA. Honda learned that the jhard way with the Oddysey. Let's just startup auto manufacturers in the US and Mexico (where they re working their buns off to try to have a reputation for quality manufacturing. ...sigh...sometimes some brands of socialism get in the way...others do not!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Let's be clear.. we are talking about US sales only. Careful now.. these facts are readily available in less than 30 sec... especially today .. Nov sales are out.

    I was NOT discussing worldwide sales. That is obvious. now the rest of your points were what?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    An earlier post was right on. The japanese companies that assemble vehicles here are only using Amercian workers to assemble their vehicles. Practically every part that goes into that vehicle is from a japanese supplier, i.e. Toyota supplies itself with parts from "American" companies it bought years ago.

    I tried to supply steel to Toyota and Honda from my company in Europe because we were Toyota's largest supplier there. In the US the policy was domestic mills first, Japanese second, rest of the world need not apply. At that time 80% of all steel used in Georgetown and Marysville was from US/Canadian sources.

    Careful of your facts. Steel is quite a large part of a vehicle.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Careful of your fact now.. ;)

    Lexus Rx330? Corolla? Matrix? These are made...??
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    November 2005 sales:

    Camry: 29,707
    Accord: 23,548
    Sonata/Optima: 18,467 (Sonata: 14,216; Optima: 4,251)
    Altima: 15,154
    Fusion/Milan: 7,211 (Fusion: 5,337; Milan: 1,874)

    *Camry sales include Solara coupe and convertible. Accord sales include coupe.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Trend analysis.. list all 5 models and see where the Sonata/Optima is getting it's sales from. Is it eating the altima's lunch or the camry's. If something is going up strongly then something else is likely going down.

    Or another interesting trend would be if the entire segment is up strongly.. indicating a major move toward midsize vehicles of all makes.

    What was your source BTW? To be precise you sould quote the source. I saw the Toyota figures on their website but the other vehicles? Did you compile them yourself from the monthly reports today?
  • littlezlittlez Member Posts: 167
    I was specifically talking parts, i.e. steering wheel, seat covers, carpeting, lenses covers, dashboard materials, etc. When Toyota began assembling the Camry in the US, one of the first things they did was buyout a good portion of the American suppliers. Keep in mind, japanese manufacturers do not think that American workers know how to build quality in anything. They were supplying themselves with parts made in America. If you keep an eye on their new plant in Texas, they will do the same thing there with the "American" suppliers.
  • littlezlittlez Member Posts: 167
    tyguy: I was looking at the manufacturer study which lists Hyundai as a whole including all of its vehicles.

    The Sonata may be a decent car, but overall, the company scores poorly in the dependability study.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Careful now you are digging yourself a bigger hole. ;)
    You first said:
    An earlier post was right on. The japanese companies that assemble vehicles here are only using Amercian workers to assemble their vehicles. Practically every part that goes into that vehicle is from a japanese supplier, i.e. Toyota supplies itself with parts from "American" companies it bought years ago.

    Then above you said:
    When Toyota began assembling the Camry in the US, one of the first things they did was buyout a good portion of the American suppliers.

    Now to be clear on this these companies you said Toyota bought were American companies making parts here? But Toyota bought into them to ensure quality. So they were American companies after all. Just like the 80% of the steel used in Camry's, Corolla's, Accords, etc.

    Now your original point was what again? You dont like the fact that Japanese companies own American companies?
  • littlezlittlez Member Posts: 167
    Toyota did not "buy into them", they own them. There is a difference. If a company in the US is owned by a japanese company, where does the profit go? It also holds true for the supplier when owned by a foreign company. I know this from experience.

    You're right about one thing. I don't like japanese companies buying American companies in the US.
  • killerbunnykillerbunny Member Posts: 141
    Japanese is too greedy. If they didn't attack perl harbor, Korea, Taiwan and northeastern China is a part of Japan now.

    Not really. Do you know why the Japanese attacked pearl harbor? That's because they were facing tremendous resistance from the Chinese(400 million at that time). The Japanese needed lots of resources (oil, rubber, etc) to keep the war going. They had no other way but to occupy southeast asia, which was under American control. Thus, they got to attack pearl habour 1st before they could grab southeast asia.
  • killerbunnykillerbunny Member Posts: 141
    Toyota did not "buy into them", they own them. There is a difference. If a company in the US is owned by a japanese company, where does the profit go? It also holds true for the supplier when owned by a foreign company. I know this from experience.

    You're right about one thing. I don't like japanese companies buying American companies in the US.


    Then, Chrysler is owned by Germans and thus does not count as domestic.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    OK as long as we are clear about your intent then your opinion will be given the consideration it deserves.

    Oh BTW.. in the same vein the europeans will require GM to divest itself of all it's overseas operations, oh and Ford too, oh and Mexico wants Ford to sell the Herosillo plant to it's workers.. ah fuhgedaboudit.. let's move to the country and grow our own corn for our families.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Guess I need to speak up ... :)

    Sonata ... Accord ... Camry ... Fusion ...

    That's what we're talkin' about, not Pearl Harbor, not GNP, not what GM nor Ford nor either of the other two are up to, not any of the other similar topics that have been bantered around for the last several pages.

    The place for that type of conversation is our News & Views board. I'd be surprised if there is not a topic there already that addresses these things, but if there's not, anyone interested should feel free to hop over there and fire one up.

    Meanwhile, let's get back to comparing the actual cars that are our subject.

    Take a deep breath and repeat after me:

    Sonata ... Accord ... Camry ... Fusion ...

    Sonata ... Accord ... Camry ... Fusion ...

    Sonata ... Accord ... Camry ... Fusion ...

    :shades:
  • zodiac2004zodiac2004 Member Posts: 458
    Reasons for coming to investigate a midsize vehicle
    1&1a Affordability and Reliability
    2&2a ( interchangeable per the buyer ) Safety and Style
    3 Features
    4 Economy
    5 Performance


    You sell Toyotas. What else are they gonna tell you.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I don't sell Toyotas and I think that's a pretty accurate ranking, although generalities always have exceptions. And I think economy is moving up of late. If it is a true picture of the buying public for mid-sized cars, it means a few things:

    * Ford had better beef up the safety gear on the Fusion.
    * Honda is in trouble with the Accord as new, lower-priced options like the Fusion and Sonata appear.
    * The V6 horsepower wars are pretty ridiculous for this class.
    * Hyundai is in good shape with the Sonata, if they can change the public's perception on reliability.
    * Toyota needs to keep the price of the new Camry down while keeping the quality up and improving the standard safety features. The styling is an improvement while still playing it safe.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Accord is hardly in trouble from Fusion. And the Sonata threat is mild. Weak perceptions of Hyundai have to do with more than reliability. Sonata has no panache. Its a white bread kinda vehicle. Most people, including me, want a step up from that, if not more. Accord delivers that.

    I don't think the 07 Camry needs to be priced low for it to sell well, but it certainly can't go over $25K for a V6 loaded.

    This sector isn't the economy sector (is it?).
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    Holy Mackeral! Sonata's sale up 117% from a year ago month, over 7600 additional cars sold.

    Hyundai MUST be gaining in public acceptance. As "spyder" said, it remains to be seen who is taking the hit for this increase...Hon/Toy/Nis/Ford or other Hyundai models.

    Anyway, it appears that more people are willing to consider a Hyundai Sonata and some of them are purchasing.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If you add up the sales of the so-called "white bread" cars like Camry, Sonata, and others in the class, vs. Accord, it looks to me that most people like white bread. But then, I would classify the Accord as white bread as well. Which is part of the reason for its success I think--it isn't radical enough to offend large parts of the target market.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Sonata ... Accord ... Camry ... Fusion ...

    Sonata ... Accord ... Camry ... Fusion ...

    Sonata ... Accord ... Camry ... Fusion ...

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    are really up this month, at this rate, the car could outsell the Altima next month...its pretty darn close as is...

    But, I wonder how many of those sales went to fleets. I was with my mother the other day to get a rental car and I noticed a large amount of Sonatas, Camrys and Altimas.

    The Accord is as big a fleet car I don't believe.

    My mother ended up getting an Accord Hybrid (06) for the weekend while her Odyssey is in the shop.

    I wasn't even AWARE that the 06 Hybrid was on sale yet, but she's driving one now...she says its "nice"
  • littlezlittlez Member Posts: 167
    Not sure, but I believe those were total sales, which include fleet units. Ford got out of fleet units last year and GM is getting out next year. Possibly some of those are fleet sales.

    Fusion had its best month ever...up infinitely!!!
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Fusion had its best month ever...

    Yeah, November was only the second month it was available. Is that like the first ever G6?
  • littlezlittlez Member Posts: 167
    Hey, import buyers. Check out the Fusion. Ford has built a car that can seriously compete with the imports. Look at the customer reviews of those who have test driven and bought them. Great car, great looks, great interior, great handling, great price. I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but you've got to admit, it's really eye-catching. Anyone who wants to bash Ford for not making some of the safety features standard...hey, just add them, the price is still competitive. If you don't want them, then save a little $$$.

    Car and Driver says Accord first and then the Fusion followed by the Sonata and Camry. I think Ford has a winner.
  • littlezlittlez Member Posts: 167
    Hey, lighten up and have a little fun.
  • spinzerospinzero Member Posts: 91
    Hey, import buyers. Check out the Fusion.

    Actually I consider myself a "good car" buyer. Judging from your tone then, I guess you will be a "domestic buyer". Biased a little bit?

    I actually like the Fusion a lot. It has more of the European Ford flavor to it, and I like that.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Hyundai/Kia may have quite a midsize duo on their hands when the 2007 Optima comes out in a few months.

    250,000 annual sales is possible.

    Fusion/Milan sales have a lot of upside.
  • littlezlittlez Member Posts: 167
    Yeah, I guess I am. I come from a long line of American auto workers. It's good to see Ford make a car that may bring some domestic defectors back to Ford. Actually, the 500 is an awesome family sedan, too. Will be much better when they put the 3.5L in it next year.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Ok we are in agreement.. we are talking about the 4 midsize vehiles here right? Other things to add?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Fusion/Milan = Taurus/Sable
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Anyone who wants to bash Ford for not making some of the safety features standard...hey, just add them, the price is still competitive.

    What's the option code for the stability control, again? ;)
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    LOL

    ~alpha
  • littlezlittlez Member Posts: 167
    87P
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Stability control or not. It's still a Fusion. Drive the car and feel it. Compare it to the Japanese offerings. Not much of a threat. Sonata is.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    I always stay away from troubled companies. Wether it is airlines, department store, or auto companies. And right now FORD is waist deep in trouble. The FUSION maybe an ok car but it will not pose any significant threat to the Camry and Accord. The new Camry will pretty much blow the FUSION away. GM thought the MALIBU was a credible CAMRY fighter too. :P
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I wouldn't call it "shaming". I call it educating. Thinking more long term about where you spend the money you earn. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out we are all connected in this economy. We have all been "programmed" and beaten into our heads that no way will Ford/GM ever build a car to match Toyota/Honda.. Think out of the box...
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Right now the Fusion "Blows the Camry away"..
    The media is hyping up the problems at Ford/GM and you have bought into it.. sad.
    There is nothing wrong with supporting your countries economy/workforce and buying a quality built GM/Ford product..
  • littlezlittlez Member Posts: 167
    scape2:

    Couldn't have said it better.

    The media hype has really blown some issues out of proportion.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    GM just closed 12 plants and laid of 30,000 people a day after FORD announced that it was laying of 4000 white collar employee and closing up to 5 plants. You consider that hyping? FORD and GM bonds are rated 2 notch below junk by S&P, MOODY, and FITCH. Bank of America just increased its odd that GM will declare bankruptcy within the next two from 30 to 40%. Really, how much worse will it have to be to be considered bad in your opinion ? The fact is I would be hesitant to buy a product from a company that might not be around for much longer. I hope I am wrong but things are looking reallllly bad for the big two. I am not saying that the FUSION is a bad car but I really don't see the masses defecting from Camry and Accord in any significant numbers.
  • littlezlittlez Member Posts: 167
    GM did not just close 12 plants and lay off 30,000. It is a 3 to 4 year plan. Ford's plan is two years and most will be due to attrition.

    You also just mentioned a couple of items. Read the news, there is a lot more "hype" than just the items you mentioned.

    Ford has over $19 billion in cash. The only auto company that has more is Toyota. It just doesn't sound like Ford is in trouble of going under. Yet, there are analysts and columnists who say Ford is worse off than GM. That is hype.
  • chrisfordchrisford Member Posts: 55
    Stability control, is way overrated. Does the Mazda6 have stability control? NO! I live in NYC and work on the Island. Believe me when I tell you the Jacky Robinson coupled with slushy ice and rain can test the best stability control system. My 99 Contour SE only has ABS and I haven't had any problem doing 45+ mph in the curves and breaking hard at the corners.
    For a while I drove a 2002 Cadillac DTS with stabiliTrak 2.0, Traction control, ABS and all the bells and whistles. I felt the same confidence in my Contour as I felt in the Caddy.
    Some Folks are never going to feel safe until their car drives it's self. What's fun will that be?
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    It is a fact that GM and Ford are in trouble. You can't deny that.

    Many of the consumers lost their trust in American brands because of the poorly made cars they were producing. In contrast to that, Honda and Toyota started to make reliable cars (that got better and better over the years)That was when they started to earn the trust of Consumers. Even if they do offer a car that is equally reliable to the Japanese, will they be able to force the consumers to make a change back?
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    http://www.iihs.org/research/topics/esc.html

    Stability control results in 41% fewer crashes.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Why do you have ABS on your car? Don't you know how to use the brakes?? ;)

    The value of stability control is not that it would be needed every minute we drive. It's there to help with maybe that one tricky situation where the presence of that feature can mean the difference between an accident or just an elevated-pulse moment--just like ABS, or air bags.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    What brought Ford and GM out of the dust a while back was the SUV. If they can figure out their next "big" thing then they have a chance. If they're trying to rely on the small car sector to turn things around, they're in trouble.

    Let them go into bankruptcy. Reorganize into a more streamlined business and shed some of this union legacy nonsense. Maybe trucks should be their only business.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Yes, and people who sit on a couch rather than drive somewhere will be involved in 100% less accidents as well.

    My point is, be careful of believing everything these studies claims. First, most of the vehicles that have stability control to date have been high center of gravity vehicles, more prone to rollover and perhaps other accidents as well, due to the nature of the vehicle and driver. Stability control will have more impact on accident reduction with these vehicles.

    Additionally, the demographics of the drivers who choose a vehicle equipped with stability control may be safety conscious people who would be less involved in accidents anyways.

    Stability control likely has much less impact on reducing accidents in sedans than SUV's, trucks and minivans, so the actual accident reductions, once more vehicles are so equipped will not be so dramatic. It is a pretty small sample of vehicles on the road to date that have stability control, so making widespread claims is premature.
  • baltomanbaltoman Member Posts: 43
    There is nothing wrong with supporting your countries economy/workforce and buying a quality built GM/Ford product.

    Right on !

    Let's just take one rarely thought of advantage.

    Corporate giving.

    Yes Toy, etc give, but no where near the levels of GM and Ford - particularly as a percent of profits.

    Even with their well documented financial problems, these companies are giving real dollars to help Americans of every type.

    A little patriotism has manifold benefits.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    True, ESC helps more with vehicles with higher centers of gravity. However, the NHTSA separated out cars in their study of ESC effectiveness and found a 35% reduction in single-vehicle accidents for cars, 67% for SUVs--and 30% for fatal accidents for cars (63% for SUVs).

    So if I can choose a car that offers me this feature (standard, even) that reduces my risk of an accident by 35% and a fatal accident by 30%, or one that costs about the same or a little more and doesn't even offer this feature, which would I prefer? Easy decision, for me, assuming the rest of the car meets my needs.
  • littlezlittlez Member Posts: 167
    I sure hope so!
This discussion has been closed.

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