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To me, those three cars are basic three box designed cars just like everything else in this segment.
Now, I'm no fan of the current Camry style-wise, or the 03-05 Accord (I do like the 06 better) and even to me as an Altima owner, the Altima is starting to get dated, but I just don't see the Fusion/Milian/Zephyr as anything new to the 21st century. To be honest, they look like cars that could have come out back in 2000 or so. Nothing innovative or different about them style wise really IMO.
The only real "dash and flash" I see on any of these cars is the Fusion's use of Altezza-like taillights, that have been used since what, 2000-01 by Toyota? The waterfall grille on the Milan is nice, and after seeing it in person, I'm actually a bigger fan of the Zephyr than the other two, but none of them "wow" me with their styling.
Maybe I need to get my eyes checked or something because I find the older Mazda6 more attractive than Ford's new Trio of sedans.
And I also find that while the interiors of these cars are better than anything Ford put in the Taurus or Sable, they still lag behind the almost generation old Camry, Accord and Altima.
If they lag behind these current cars (My personal opinion), how in the world will they compete with the new crop of sedans coming up for 07?
I'm not knocking the Fusion or its twin sisters, but I just don't see how the styling they have is unique in this class. As a matter of fact, I find them quite derivative.
Fusion has headlights from a Prelude, grille from a Caddy and taillights similar to the aging 2002 Nissan Altima and Toyota Altezza.
Oh well, I guess its just me...
Happy Motoring Days my Friends
By the way anyone test drive the Chevy Impala? Quite a shocker here, Chevy did fine work... Another contendor.. but once again stigma..
Also look over at Chrysler, the 300C/300 and Charger are ALL about style. Not that many people buy the Hemi. The style basically sells those cars. And they too are "family" sedans.
This is my experience as well in meeting the public on a daily basis.
Reasons for coming to investigate a midsize vehicle
1&1a Affordability and Reliability
2&2a ( interchangeable per the buyer ) Safety and Style
3 Features
4 Economy
5 Performance
The New Camry, looks surprisingly like the current one. It won't "raise the bar" as much as you think. The Fusion styling is still the looker for the segment. And then you have the money factor. What is the new Camry that stickers in the same price range as a Fusion going to look like on the inside? You take a bottom Cam and a comparably priced Fusion and tell me whose interior is more nice looking. If car company's thought like that, they would never introduce a car.
Ford also plans updates to the Fusion every year. Next year we get an ST with rumored 250hp, the new Camry isn't going to be much more than that because the Avalon has to be the beast at 280. And the Cam is heavier. We also get a manu-shift tranny that is the co Ford/GM tranny. We also get AWD. We also get packaging and accessorie tweaks. In other words, the Ford will remain competitive. If they make the safety equipment standard, I don't see why anyone could really complain at that point.
However, though you and I may think so. I also think that Ghosn knows more since he kinda does run an entire company. The Altima has styling and performance and that is it to me, so what do we know.
And then there are the Charger and 300. Again styling and they are leaping off the lots. Isn't an Avalon, in all honesty a better car for the same money? But it doesn't have the look of the Charger and 300. Really I don't even think that your Charger buyer would cross shop an Avalon even though they'll sticker around the same. And I think your 300 or 300C buyer would defend their purchase by just telling you to look at the car. So again, you and I are in agreement, but the facts are making us look bad.
Buying the Ford helps our trade deficit even though it is built in Mexico, buying the Honda hurts it, even though it is built in the US. On a macro-level, buying the Ford is better than buying the Honda FOR AMERICA.
On a micro level the the Accord is indeed giving Americans jobs. However, even with the Fusion built in Mexico, Ford employs at least double the amount of peopel Honda does in the US. And for every Fusion sold, those other people in the US, that are getting paid FAR too much due to the UAW are helped. So you've got the sum of all evils there.
Honda and Toyota still make the FAR MAJORITY of their cars overseas, which is why their cost structure is lower than GM or Fords. My solution, require something like 80% of the cars driven in America, to be built in America. It would hold jobs in this country and eliminate the Japanere's unfair advantages. The real reason that Ford is making cars in Mexico, stares at you when you brush your teeth in the morning. This Democracy is not working for the people.
Interestingly, you are going to talk about Ford building in Mexico and complain BUT NOT complain about Japan pegging the dollar, or charging tariffs on US products. At least be fair. Like I said, people never have enough information to really talk about this subject.
I know I keep coming back to this point the V6 only appeals to the prior Taurus/Sable owners who havent switched to HonYota yet. The V6 is a non-factor in the midsized segment except as bling-bling. If any manufacturer thinks it will live on its V6 sales in this market in this environment they are doomed. The 4c basic people-mover is the bones and structure of any of these models and the manufacturer has to make it good enough and inexpensive enough to sell 60% min of its vehicle this way.
If the 4c is not the focus of the product line, that line will be a peripheral vehicle like the Mazda6 or even the 300.
Suggestion
50K Milans 40K as V6, 10K as 4c
250K Fusions 50K as V6, 200K as 4c
DO NOT CUT THE PRICES!!!
OTOH they know their customer base better than I do certainly. If there are 1.5-2.0 Million Taurus/Sable owners out there dying to get rid of their mid 90's Vulcans then 300K V6's annually might work out OK. But they have to look out for Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai next year coming out with hybrid 4c's having 225 hp and 40 mpg.
Forget the monster 270hp V6's from 'Yota/Niss/Hon. Just bling-bling.
I think it is nitpicked to death, from the color of it guages, to the orientation of its design. The Sonata is my second choice. Only because the pricing is competitive and I am not that much of a safety buff, and styling matters to me ALOT.
Like I said, people never have enough information to really talk about this subject.
Unfortunately between these two statements you showed somewhat of a lack of knowledge of the current situation.
Honda and Toyota still make the FAR MAJORITY of their cars overseas,
I will admit that your statement was correct in 1989 !
Today:
62% of all Toyotas are made in N America
75% of all Hondas are made in N America
I do know a little about international trade as I was in it for 30+ years and for just under 10 years was a sole supplier to Ford ( and Chrysler ) for major body panels and other parts ( 100% of which came from Europe ). My former company was ( is? ) the major supplier to Ford Europe. Careful of your facts.
Most Toyota's are made in Japan. Keep in mind, that the US is not the only market for their cars. Keep in mind that you may be looking at numbers based on assembly, not on part content. Did you know that though the Fusion is built in Mexico, many of its parts are from the US? Did you know GM and Ford still have the highest percentage of American parts in their vehicles on average? Or that GM FAR blows by all competition in sheer number of American workers? Question for you. If Toyota makes more cars than Ford, but Ford has a higher average American part content, doesn't that mean that most of the vehicles that Toyota makes parts come from Japan?
Just looking at those numbers, it shouldn't pass the smell test. 75% of Hondas are made in America, hmmm so you are saying that only 25% are made eslewhere in the world. So for this Japenese car company, it builds far more cars outside Japan than inside? Does that really make sense when Japan, I believe, is their second biggest market?
People do not have enough knowledge to talk about it at a good level.
Like I said, people never have enough information to really talk about this subject.
Are you also a master of economics, both micro and macro? How about the financial ramifications of a trade deficit? How about also how much of a multiplier you have to use for a dollar that is left in the economy, versus one that is taken out? How about unnatural influences on supply and demand such as unions? Or how those affect unemployment? How about the Japenese currency pegs and tariffs? How about healthcare costs on a competitive basis between Japan and America? You take that one comment about how much of Toyota and Honda are made in the US and make it apply to my entire post that was several paragraphs long. I am not a master of knowledge on all the factors I listed. I am just a plan financial analyst from 8-5 Monday thru Friday. It allows me to know all the factors and to know something about them but not be a master of all of them. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of factors and usually people don't even mention three in their posts. It is usually just, "Oh the Fusion is the only one of the four not made in the US" and you know that to be true. The Devil, run amock in those facts he has.
Like I said, people never have enough information to really talk about this subject.
Unfortunately between these two statements you showed somewhat of a lack of knowledge of the current situation.
Interestingly, you are going to talk about Ford building in Mexico and complain BUT NOT complain about Japan pegging the dollar, or charging tariffs on US products. At least be fair. Like I said, people never have enough information to really talk about this subject.
Tell me what about that statement is inaccurate or wrong? That was the conclusion to my whole rant and rave. Was it wrong of me to ask people to at least be fair?
And then you followed this with--how many?--posts of your own on this subject?
My solution, require something like 80% of the cars driven in America, to be built in America.
In this one statement you demonstrated you have a total lack of understanding of socio-economic reality. As Thomas Friedman has suggested, the world is indeed flat, in an economic sense, and setting up quotas like that won't change that fact.
That is not correct. It is a disservice to people reading these forums for information to help them make new-car buying decisions to post blatantly inaccurate information like that. Please check your facts before posting stuff like that.
You have just given one example why your statement was blatantly false. Also look at other studies, e.g. the well-known Consumer Reports annual study on reliability. Also check the JD Powers and CR reliability rankings for the Hyundai Sonata in particular, since that is in-topic here. Also look at which car JD Powers recently named the Most Appealing Entry Mid-Sized car.
P.S. Kia is not part of this discussion.
Both JD power and CR studies have been mentioned several times on this thread alone, and you can actually find the result of Consumer Report survey that I posted if you scroll a few pages back. Even with the JD power study you mentioned, Hyundai is far from "at the bottom"
Google "Hyundai reliability" and you'll find many interesting articles from these independent organizations.
In the end, what you mentioned is more in line with the perception of general public, than what is actually happening in this industry at the moment.
Most Toyota's are made in Japan. Keep in mind, that the US is not the only market for their cars. Keep in mind that you may be looking at numbers based on assembly, not on part content. Did you know that though the Fusion is built in Mexico, many of its parts are from the US? Did you know GM and Ford still have the highest percentage of American parts in their vehicles on average? Or that GM FAR blows by all competition in sheer number of American workers? Question for you. If Toyota makes more cars than Ford, but Ford has a higher average American part content, doesn't that mean that most of the vehicles that Toyota makes parts come from Japan
Politics we shouldn't discuss. Bashing a country is a path to the darkside as Master Yoda would say. We are here to discuss about 4 particular cars and not whether Japan or Korea has unfair trade practices or where the profits from the sale of a particular car goes. If you want to discuss the political implications of buying specific cars then start your own thread. Trying to shame people because they bought a car that is not made by Ford or GM is uncalled for. C'mon Pat we need your opinion on this.
Have another drink fella. Ford can't just put together a package of metal, plastic, and rubber and hope to outsell CamCord. Increasing a car's warranty is a commitment to reliability? Na. You can't commit to reliability. Its a status that's earned over years of delivering performance, as CamCord has done for a long time.
It wont be in the near future. The Hermosillo plant is geared only to produce 300K units annually at full capacity. The Camry and Accord are 50% higher than that already. Hell both the Corolla and Civic are higher than that also.
But here is a good question. With Camry growing into the 500K range and Accord in the 450K range and lets say the Fusion is a spectacular hit and fills the capacity at Hermosillo. Where does Ford find 200K extra units? Production-wise and customer-wise.
I'll grant that there may be a couple of million present Taurus/Sable owners just dying to get out of their oldline vehicles. How do you keep them from migrating to CamCords if their 94-95 models start to go out in the next year or two. My view, which I'm open to change, is that the former T&S owners are pretty conservative and loyal if they have kept their vehicles 10 yrs now. If they are shutout from buying a new Fusion by high demand and full capacity do they go to the new boy on the block, Sonata, or do they migrate to the 'proven players' Camry/Accord.
Now assume GM's woes get worse and they begin to lose even more customers. Do they migrate to their arch rival, Ford, or head on over to the other 3?
Toyota just announced that the Subaru plant in Indiana will begin to produce Camrys to supplement Georgetown, KY. I think they are expecting a surge from somewhere.
What if 'yota bought the two GM Canada plants scheduled to close? They already have a JV with GM in California whynot also in Canada?
I find it hard to imagine that a highschool dropout making $90K/year would ever have been possible without someone somewhere else in the world being grossly underpaid, but that's just me.
I agree this matter would require a separate thread, and probably deserve none.
PS. Kia was mentioned in the original post.
If you can't tell when something is a misstatement of fact or not, it's really pointless to have a discussion with you.
You said:
Kia and Hyundai are at the bottom of all dependability studies for quality.
I have highlighted the key words here. You also gave some information (which was incorrect, btw) from a JD Power reliability study:
Go study JD Powers 2005 Dependability Study. You can find it on the internet. Look and see where Kia and Hyundai are ranked. Here is the ranking from the bottom up: Kia, Land Rover, MINI Cooper, Volkswagen, Isuzu, Daewoo, Audi, Suzuki, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Subaru, Hyundai, Mazda, Saab and Mercedes-Benz.
So let's establish some facts:
1. The JD Power 2005 Dependability Study is an example of a "dependability study for quality."
2. In that study, there were 17 (more than what you posted) brands that ranked below Hyundai.
3. "At the bottom" means "last". Hyundai was not even close to being last in the JD Power study you mentioned. Hyundai is also not anywhere close to being last in the latest long-term reliability study that CR published. And some people, like me, do find value in CR's studies. It is at any rate a real and well-known "dependability study for quality."
Therefore, your statement is blatantly false.
One of the respondents to my post stated that this was a subject that most are not qualified to talk about. YIKES!! Well, I am well aware of the Micro/Macro issues involved in this matter, as I was a Finance/Accounting Major in College. (big deal right?)
It is a very complex issue, but I feel that most of the time when you hear people saying that they want to buy American, they are really saying that they want something BUILT in America, not Mexico by an American company. My post stated that my bias was for American workers. As one other respondent to my post pointed out, there are many things not in the post that lead that person to post what they did. Want to know why I feel the way I do? Growing up in Western PA, I saw all eleven factories in my home town close within five years and the place will never be the same. So an absolute must for me is that the car that I own be assembled in the US. That's me. You will probably feel different, and that's fine. It's an issue that I have always found interesting, and I'm glad we are talking about it.
One other point. It was posted that most of the parts in the US built Camrys and Accords are sourced by Japanese companies, however, most of those parts are manufactured in the US. I would need to do some research on the percentages, but if memory serves, I believe that the "US foreign content" sticker on my Camry was around 75% US components. I will check it out later and post what I find.
To get back on track, I was looking at pricing on the models that are the topic of this conversation, and I noticed that a Sonata GL with floormats can be had (as per carsdirect.com in my zip-19146) for about 17 grand. DAMN! Sign me up- full airbag package, 34 MPG on the highway, ABS, electronic stability, 16 inch tires...
Even though I'm a fan of Toyota's products for their simplicity and trueness to mission, I'd say its time for Midsize Sedan buyers to cross the Camry off the list, until the redesign bows in March/April. Personally, I could never recommend a lame-duck model, and right now, I would only recommend a Camry in SE V6 w/NAV form- for consumers looking for a V6 sedan in the mid 20s with NAV.
~alpha
I saw an ad in my local paper this weekend for the Sonata GL for $14,999. That is probably including the loyalty rebate, but still a great price for a lot of car.
Of course not every single japanese car will hold up better than every single domestic car. I think it's safe to assume that everyone in this discussion understands what "statistics" means. So I will assume that that is not what you meant.
I will also agree that the reliability of domestic cars is not as bad as the general perception, and in fact it is generally better than that of the european makes, including german premium brands.
However, if we were to talk about two companies specifically, Toyota and Honda, It's very safe to say that their vehicles are more reliable than domestic offerings in general. I would love to see a statistical survey that says otherwise.
2. Hyundai was ranked below industry average in the bottom group of manufacturers.
3. At the bottom does not mean "last". I'll give you some statements, "bottom half", "bottom third" "below average" "worse than average". All of these statements mean, not good.
In these studies there is a top half and a bottom half. Since they are not in the top, they are in the bottom. End of discussion.
So, how about those Indianapolis Colts!!
Actually from what I have seen Hyundai is petty much higher than bottom.
Eventually, people will get frustrated with their Kia or Hyundai and buy something else.
I drive a hyundai and am not tired of it, as a matter of fact Hyundai will be on my short list when it comes time to buy my next car. Almost everyone I have talked to who has a hyundai loves theirs and would buy another.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You also said "all". You've only (mis)quoted one study. There are many more, e.g. the CR long-term reliability study and also their study of 2004 cars. Guess which car, out of all 2004 models, was most reliable according to CR's survey, with 2 problems per 100 vehicles? The Sonata.
I did go to the JD Power website and confirmed that you posted inaccurate information on the survey, e.g. showing that Hyundai topped 11 other brands (it was actually 17) and that brands like Mercedes-Benz finished higher than Hyundai (MB actually finished lower). Here is the link:
http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005089
Yes, those Colts are doing great, aren't they?
Also keep in mind that CR has to pay to do those tests, print and mail their magazines and books, maintain office staff and support staff and a whole lot of other expenses to pay. Your subscriptions don't cover all those costs, they get more money some place. Think about that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
From their website "CU supports itself through the sale of our information products and services, individual contributions, and a few noncommercial grants. "
Details available in Annual Report and Financial Statements (audited by KPMG): http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/aboutus/annualreport.htm
~alpha
There have been many things that I have seen that make me very suspect of CR (some I can mention some I cannot). Needless to say if CR told me the sky was blue I would still check.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You're right- its not the same. Toyota consumers can not be woo-ed into further donations to CR by positive reviews on Toyotas the same way that Toyota *may* choose to heavily advertise in the mag based on the same positive review.
CR isnt perfect, but its far from the conspiracy some people claim it is (based on the simple fact that American makes do less well than foreign makes in the rankings, despite the many exceptions to that).
~alpha
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"Hyundai has always offered a lot of car for the money, but it hasn't always offered much in the way of sophistication, quality, and refinement. That's been changing over the past few years, with quality improving markedly (Hyundai was tied with Honda for second place in last year's J.D. Power Initial Quality Study)..."
--- car & driver
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=9741