Hyundai Sonata vs. Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry vs. Ford Fusion

bobw3

Or maybe it's just the people that opt for stability control are more safety conscious, and therefore drive safer and that's the reason they have less accidents. Not necessarily less accidents because of stability control, but less accidents because the people that get the stability control drive safer? Just an idea to think about when looking at statistics.

iluvmysephia1

offers a good chunk of midsize car for the money. It's also nice looking and the Mercury Milan is too, IMHO.

Like I already said, Ford already knows the Fusion won't turn thier ship completely around. It will help them, though, when the rest of America starts seeing this handsome sedan.

The Milan should prove to be a good car, too, and if I was in the market for midsize I'd pop back to American car buying and get either a Milan or a Fusion.

Here's how my percentage chance of buying either of these 4 rigs is at this date:

Ford Fusion 6%
Mercury Milan 4%
Hyundai Sonata 2%
Toyota Camry .0005%
Honda Accord .0004%

The Accord and Camry will never get my dollar, even if never is a long, long time. Just the facts, dudes. They're not even close to being in the running. When you talk about malaise, bring up these two imports.

ctalk

When you talk about malaise, bring up these two imports.

:sick:

baggs32

However, the NHTSA separated out cars in their study of ESC effectiveness and found a 35% reduction in single-vehicle accidents for cars, 67% for SUVs--and 30% for fatal accidents for cars (63% for SUVs).

Here's two more cents for the pot.

A better handling car reduces the likelihood of an accident as well. The Fusion is the best handler on this list. My Mazda6 is even better. I drive it like a wild man and I can't even imagine what it would take to activate an e-nanny if it had one. However I would add it in an SUV or minivan.

badgerfan

So the odds for buying something else are 87.9991%? Or is 87.9991% the odds you will stand pat and buy nothing?

littlez

Can I guess that you don't like the Fusion?

Sorry, I went back several posts and couldn't find an answer.

If you do not, what could Ford do differently to make you consider buying one for your next vehicle. (I notice in your profile that you mostly drive imports.)

If you do, would you buy one? If not, why?

kdhspyder

Good question:
1) 175hp+ I4 with timing chain; 27c/35h
2) quiet as a church in 6yrs w/ 100K+ mi
3) ABS/BA, VSC/Trac, 8 Airbags
4) CD + Sat + audio input jack
5) $20500-21500 List

6) DO NOT stab me in the back next year or the year after or the next by offering a new buyer stupid discounts to get him in the door and thereby devalue my purchase this year.

I've owned:
2 GM's ( a good and a lemon ),
3 Chryslers, ( all had problems ),
2 Fords ( good experiences ) and
7 Toyotas ( nothing but good experiences )

As good as the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr are initially I want to be able to believe that they will hold their value. If Ford Corporate panics and has more across-the-board firesales I'm gone.

If these three start going through massive recalls like the Focus in the past I'm gone. I want to buy it, turn it on everyday for 6-8 yrs and never think about it, then sell it for $5000 at the end. It's a driving tool, nothing more.

backy

They would need to add more safety equipment and change the styling for starters (but there is the Milan...). And price it the same as the Sonata, with comparable equipment. And improve the quality (e.g. fix that hood that always looks like it's ajar). And beef up the warranty. Then I would consider one.

I did drive a Ford--a '95 Mystake. Good car, drove nice, in the shop most of the first six months I leased it.

goodegg

I doubt Honda and Toyota is looking for your dollar anyway since you're obviously a Kia - ite.

Kia, tho, could use your business. Kia sales in Nov 05 vs. Nov 04 were down 14%.

littlez

So, basically, what you're saying is you wouldn't consider one.

backy

I answered your question as honestly as I could and explained the conditions under which I would consider a Fusion. That's what you asked, right?

stealth6

FYI. Someone mentioned that their keyless remote didn't have a horn button on it to help find the car, that only the lights flash. I found that when the "lock" button is pressed twice, the horn blows for a short duration. Each additional press of the lock button gives the same result. Ed.

goodegg

I hope the next generation Accord looks better....gotta admit the Fusion has nice lines....just not thrilled with the total package.....the Sonata's front end could use a little love....and the 07 Camry looks great!

littlez

Hey, I just drew a conclusion based on your "considerations".

Change Styling - Nothing wrong with it so, not going to happen
Price same as Sonata - Already priced right so, not going to happen
Fix Hood - nothing wrong with it, so not going to happen
Beef up warranty - Plenty of warranty already on it so, not going to happen
You considering purchasing a Fusion - not going to happen.

That's all!

ctalk

Just out of curiosity, would you consider buying a Sonata?
Your earlier posts seem to show you're against Hyundai (and Kia).

What could Hyundai do differently to change your opinion?

littlez

I don't like Korean or Japanese vehicles. Prefer domestics and if persuaded could drive a European vehicle, Volvo, Jaguar, etc.

To each his own. I was just wondering since a domestic company came out with a pretty good vehicle, would it be enough to persuade someone who now buys Korean to come back to a domestic. I think I got my answer. Well, actually, per the comments, Fusion isn't the vehicle to persuade "backy" to buy american. Just doing a little vehicle research.

How about you? Would you buy a Fusion?

ctalk

How about you? Would you buy a Fusion?

I would actually consider buying a Fusion. At first I thought the styling was too radical. After looking at it for a while, I actually do like the styling. I still consider the Accord to be the best car for me (thats why I bought one.) But the Fusion and Sonata are in a close second. I still need to take a closer look at the Fusion to be sure.

The only issues I have with the car are:
Power from V6 (There seems to be a more powerful V6 coming soon)
Reliability
Resale value

backy

I try to stay open-minded about cars. That's what led me to buy my first Hyundai.

Change Styling - Actually it's the grille that I really don't like. That is a pretty easy change, if Ford ever wanted to do it. And I do like the Milan's styling OK.
Price same as Sonata - Nothing there that a bigger helping of rebates can't fix.
Fix Hood - Also fixable. From C/D's review: "From certain angles, our test car's hood gap was so wide it looked to be unlatched. All around the car, the Fusion's panel gaps are wider than those of the comparison cars."
Beef up warranty - I don't consider a three-year b-to-b warranty and five-year powertrain warranty to be all that great, when I can get five years b-to-b and ten years powertrain on the Sonata. But this is not a deal-breaker, since extended warranties are available.

littlez

I guess time will tell on the reliability and resale value. I have high hopes.

littlez

I'm not sure, but I believe the three-bar grill could be a Ford trademark. Personally, I like it, but I hope they don't put it on every Ford badged car.

Have you ever wondered if the Hyundai warranty is so good, why others aren't jumping on board to match it? I would have thought Honda and Toyota would match it, but they're not.

The warranty could end up biting Hyundai in the long run. Their current vehicles are better than those from several years ago, but I'd be worried about the first vehicles with the long warranty breaking Hyundai's bank on warranty repairs.

whahappan

"Drive the car and feel it. Compare it to the Japanese offerings. Not much of a threat."
Although I haven't driven the Fusion, just about every review has said the driving dynamics are equal or superior to everything out there. There are other issues, i.e. interior design, which were deemed to be inferior to the best the Japanese have to offer, but IMHO your post is way off base.

goodegg

This is silly. How can you disparage someone's else's opinion when you haven't driven the car yourself? I have test driven it twice and deemed it average. I don't think its a threat at all to Camcord or Sonata.

I don't think any of these reviews said the ride was superior. If so then it was a Ford owned publication. Cause superior to the others is the last thing it is.

Drive it and tell me what you think makes it that great.

driverdm

I test drove the cars and own a Mazda6. And IMHO your post is way off base. The handling is definitely not average.

littlez

I've test driven the Fusion, Milan and Zephyr. None of them are average, far from it. Fusion handles as well as any import in this segment, better than some, on par with the rest. Milan, similar handling. Zephyr handles even better.

What makes it great? On-road feel (solid and quiet), cornering (no body roll), steering (tight and controlled).

I believe it is a mild threat to Camry, Accord and Sonata. Unfortunately, many of these buyers will never give a domestic a shot. That's too bad. Check with the Ford and Lincoln Mercury dealers and you will find that a good number of Fusion, Milan and Zephyr buyers traded in an import.

goodegg

How can my opinion be way off base? Because it doesn't line up with yours?

I'm buying in this sector again in the next 6 months (lease is expiring) to replace my company car (an Accord). I'm giving Fusion a chance to change my opinion of Ford (owned a Taurus that was OK)....but it can't come close to the handling and ergos of the Accord.

Like the Fusion's styling - just not the overall feel of the car I'll be in for the next 4 years.

spinzero

but it can't come close to the handling and ergos of the Accord.

Interesting comment. I haven't driven the Fusion, but I have driven the accord, and while it handled decently for a family sedan, I didn't think it was that great. As Fusion is based on the Mazda6 which I know for a fact that handles much better than the Accord, I was expecting more from the Fusion.

Leadfoot, have you also driven the 6, and if you have, what was your impression?

goodegg

have you also driven the 6?

Funny you should ask. Was gonna test drive the MazdaSpeed or a V6 version today. I've always liked the 6's styling. Wanna see how it feels.

Drive an Accord. Sure its not BMW great, but it is tight. I like trying out new cars and am open to newcomers (like the Sonata LX). I'd love to give Ford a chance. Just don't think Fusion is special enough. Maybe the 6 is. We'll see.

backy

Have you ever wondered if the Hyundai warranty is so good, why others aren't jumping on board to match it? I would have thought Honda and Toyota would match it, but they're not.

No, they haven't matched it yet, but some interesting things have happened in the car warranty game since Hyundai introduced its long warranty seven years ago:

* Toyota upped its powertrain warranty to 5 years, 60k miles
* Honda upped its powertrain warranty to 5 years, 60k miles
* Ford upped the powertrain warranty on some of its cars (such as the Focus and Fusion, which compete directly with Hyundai models) to 5 years, 100k miles
* Mitsubishi upped its warranty to 5 years, 60k miles and powertrain warranty to 10 years, 100k miles--plus added free maintenance
* Suzuki added a 7 year, 70k mile powertrain warranty
* Chevy upped the powertrain warranty on its Aveo, which competes directly with the Accent and Rio, to 5 years, 60k miles

There are probably other examples but that's enough to raise the question: do you think all of these companies increased their warranty coverage out of the goodness of their hearts, or were there other forces at work here?

As for the first vehicles with the long warranty breaking Hyundai's bank, that is unlikely to happen. Hyundai's sales weren't that great when the program began in the late '90s, and they revamped their entire lineup soon after the warranty program started, beginning with the '99-05 Sonata (which has received good marks for reliability). And now Hyundai is in the midst of revamping their lineup again, e.g. the '06 Sonata, and all of those vehicles are being designed and built under the quality program they launched around 2000. Consider also that this warranty program actually helps ensure that owners will give their Hyundais regular maintenance--otherwise the warranty is voidable.

alpha01

I dug up the sticker on my dad's 1991 Camry (which he no longer has), and it clearly states 5 Year/60,000 mile Powertrain coverage.

My point: Toyota HAS NOT responded to Hyundai's longer warranty program in a reactive manner; Toyota's basic and powertrain warranty is the same as it was 15 years ago.

Also kinda neat: this 2.0L 115 horse 2800 lb vehicle could managed only 24/30 as its EPA ratings. The current 3100 pound Camry (2.4L 154 horses) manages 24/34! Sticker price on this Georgetown made Ice Blue Pearl Camry DX w/ Value Package: $15,297. Adjusted for inflation, that'd be $21,586 in 2005 dollars, and you'd actually get a better Camry for that- an LE with side curtains.

~alpha

littlez

Interesting facts, but they did not "match" the warranty.

There will still enough Hyundai vehicles sold to cause a warranty cost drain on Hyundai. There have been some major powertrain problems with some of the older vehicles. Not sure how much it will hurt Hyundai in the long run, but it will hurt some.

backy

Care to provide some facts to back up your statements? For example, does Hyundai have any powertrain problems in its 1999 and newer vehicles sold in the U.S. to rival those of other automakers in this discussion, e.g. the problems affecting over 1 million Hondas, including the current-generation Accord, and the "sludge" problems of Toyotas?

backy

Thanks for the correction on the Toyota warranty. The last Toyotas I owned were in the '80s, and back then I think all they had was a 2-year, maybe a 3-year warranty at best.

littlez

Didn't have the time to do extensive research, but here are some specific, not all, the recalls I found for 2001 Hyundai vehicles.

2001 Accent - Structural defect and speed control issues

2001 Elantra - Brake problem

2001 Santa Fe - Starter Assembly

2001 XG300 - Powertrain Control Module.

There were more, I just listed those I found quickly and only for 2001-models.

booyahcramer

Hey Leadfoot. I know what you're saying about the Fusion being just so so. I drove an SEL model and was waiting to see what the mags were praising and couldn't find it either. Didn't like the low rent shifter. Or when the hood was slammed not telling visually if it was closed. Or having to contort my hand to turn on the defroster. And the lag in the gas pedal when accelerating.

I had an Accord and the Fusion's road feel is passive compared to the Accord. Let the Fusioners accept what Ford's dishing out here. I'm not. I think I'll wait for the 07 Camry. The 06 Accord doesn't ring my bell style wise and the Sonata is a wanabe Accord (which isn't a bad thing).

backy

The structural defect on the 2001 Accent was not related to powertrain, and was fixed through a recall a long time ago--by installing some brackets on the A-pillar. The other recall on the 2001 Accent was fixed a long time ago too, by installing a new PCV hose and a heated throttle body (on some of the cars.)

The starter recall on the Santa Fe involved replacing some sensors on up to 25,000 vehicles; it was done a long time ago.

The recall on the Elantra's brakes has nothing to do with the powertrain, which is what you were talking about--"major powertrain problems."

The recall on the XG300 involved inspecting and potentially replacing the powertrain control module on less than 2000 cars.

Did you have some examples of "major powertrain problems" to share--i.e., of similar scale to the major powertrain problems of some of the Sonata's competitors? In case you missed an earlier post, the Sonata has fewer recalls in the past five years than the Accord.

dino001

I'm coming from a different angle. My brand of choice now is Subaru, although it has some irritations. I like Germans a lot, but they're too expensive for me. I appreciate Japanese and Korean mainstreams, but I hate their packaging practices. I am not native to this land, so there are some other considerations I brought from my old country that are also important to me. I actually owned a Ford (Escort) for three years and liked it enough, but though reliable, it was clearly inferior in many aspects. To anwer your question, what would bring me back to domestics:
1. Availability of wagon/hatchback/liftback combined with manual transmission on both I-4 and V6 engines and AWD (do not choose on or the other). No annoying packaging that makes you choose between manual and V6 or manual and wagon, etc.
2. Interior ergonomics and space utilization: from better seats having enough thigh and lateral support to better thought-through sizes of pouches and compartments (American cars usually suck at it big time), to telescopic steering wheel column.
3. Availability safety equipment up to date (side impact airbags and curtains, etc.)
4. Contemporary interior estethics/design.
5. Obvious efforts in some technology advances, like better engines - do not make me think you put a new skin on 1985 chassis with 1965 engine (GM is probably a "leader" in that approach).
6. Driving experience trying to match/exceed BMW rather than say a Cadillac.
7. Better or at least promissing (not by words but by some tangible data) reliability record is a given.

You get that, I am yours. I do not buy import because it's an import - I buy it because I believe they will satisfy my needs and desires. I used to like previous Focus, very much so - it was a good looking entry-level car with great interior. They screwed up the reliability and then totally missed styling update (plus I grew from entry level to midsize, which was occupied by a rental Taurus).

Give me an impression that Bill Ford would not mind driving it least a few times a year for longer than around the block and would not be ashamed or afraid to give that car to his son/daughter/niece/nephew.

backy

Well, you have pretty much locked yourself into a Subaru Legacy/Outback, due to the wagon + stick + AWD requirement. Or one of the upscale brands e.g. Volvo, Mercedes, BMW, but those cost a lot more. The only thing that comes anywhere close in this class is the Mazda6 wagon, but that of course is not AWD.

dino001

Yeah, I know. I just said if domestics bring anything remotely similar I will consider buying it. I might let go AWD (I live in Florida, so AWD is just my quirk), but it would have to be for something really extraordinary. Wagon/hatchback/5door+manual is a must, as the extra utility is much more important than chromes on exhausts or front grille. It looks that outside of mediocre Malibu Maxx, there is no entry in domestic. Similar with mainstream Japanese.

My major point (besides lack of wagon/AWD/manual thing) was that when you look at domestics you know that the exec was thinking like "I am shauffered in Cadillac/Lincoln, so are my daughter and wife, so I don't really care what's there - stupid people will buy it anyway as long as we scream $2000 cashback". And then they still won't so local Hertz gets a super deal.

littlez

Please keep in mind, I'm not downing the Sonata, I'm talking about Hyundai as a whole and I was also talking about problems earlier than 1999. I also said there were "some" major problems, not comparing them to the competition, which I know, as you've stated, Honda (drivetrain) and Toyota (sludge), which Toyota refuses to admit is a problem.

Also all of the recalls are warranty repairs. Even though it's not a powertrain problem, they still have to pay for the fix.

If I have time later, I'll do some more checking on early powertrain issues.

goodegg

I don't think the powertrain warranty is a big deal. I've owned 20 vehicles and have had minimal powertrain issues. Plus with all the exclusions and prorations and caveats in the darn things they probably don't cover much anyway.

Low maintenance and fit and finish are tops with me. Honda and Toyota have delivered that to me over the years. No car's perfect. But my friend's 96 Accord with 206K miles on it which runs great and is still tight is the kind of testimony that sinks in.

littlez

Low maintenance and fit and finish are important to me, too. I had an Explorer with 180,000 miles before it was traded. Have an '04 Taurus (very underrated) with the DOHC V6 that has 50,000 miles. Still looks and runs like I just drove it off the lot. That V6, by the way, gets 24 mpg (average) and will blow the doors off of many cars in the segment.

I use that kind of testimony that says Ford makes some very good vehicles. Sure, there are horror stories for just about every make and model. As someone said earlier, no one makes the "perfect" car.

ctalk

That V6, by the way, gets 24 mpg (average) and will blow the doors off of many cars in the segment.

It certainly can't out run an Accord, Camry, current Sonata or Altima.

backy

It is really hard carrying a thread of discussion with you. First you talk about the costs to Hyundai of repairs under its long powertrain warranty being a financial issue because of the "major powertrain problems" that Hyundais have. Because this long powertrain warranty has only existed since 1999, it applies only to 1999 and later Hyundais. Now, you want to talk about problems earlier than 1999--even though they have no bearing on the warranty cost issue you raised. And you can't seem to come up with those "major powertrain problems".

Of course Hyundai has had recalls on their cars. Every manufacturer, including Honda, Toyota, and Ford, does. As I've stated, Hyundai's recalls, specifically for the Sonata (to try to get back on topic), are no more over the past five years than for cars like the Accord that have great reputations for reliability.

Since you are bringing up these warranty "issues" in this discussion devoted to the Sonata and three of its competitors, it is clear your intention is to "down" the Sonata, because as you have stated, you don't like Korean and Japanese cars in general.

While you are doing your research on recalls for Hyundais, maybe you could also research recalls for Ford mid-sized cars and tell us what you find. I know that my '95 Mystique certainly had its share of recalls. I also know the Focus has had a ton of recalls, which was a major factor keeping me from seriously considering one in 2000 and again in 2004.

driverdm

I own a Mazda6, as everybody probably knows already. It is absolutely a blast to drive. I once read an article that said it was the only car that people would find excuses to go drive and it made me feel less strange because I found myself making up all types of reasons to go out. I am trying to think of one right now. I'd stay with the Mazda, but starring at the same car everyday, no matter how beautiful it is, leads to it getting dated. After the Mazda, I can't drive a normal everyday car It just isn't going to happen. The Fusion gives me a little more room, reminds me of an STS (a good thing) and handles like a charm. The Fusion's perforated leather seats also look very nice. Can't wait for a manu-shift.

backy

I finally got the chance to drive a Fusion 4-cylinder today; I have posted the review here:

backy, "The Forums Test Drive Team" #171, 8 Oct 2005 8:41 pm

Overall I was favorably impressed by the driving experience but less so with a few other aspects of the car. I still put the Sonata and Accord ahead of the Fusion, but with some little changes to the Fusion (or probably the Milan, since I like its styling much better) it could easily move into contention for me. Tops on the list are adding ESC and a longer warranty (the 5/100 powertrain warranty on the Fusion was a temporary offer, apparently--the sales rep told me it expired at the end of November). And the rebates will need to get bigger also, since right now there's a $1500 difference in rebates for me between the Fusion/Milan and Sonata. But it's a solid effort by Ford--much improved over the Taurus.

littlez

OK, backy, here you go:

1999 Sonata - Automatic Transmission problem. Transmissions were replaced.

1999/2000 Sonatas - 2.4L Engine problems. Engines were replaced.

1999/2000 Sonatas - Manual Transmission problems. Not sure if they had to be replaced, but there was a TSB out on these for gear ratio problems. It looked as if some were replaced and some were repaired.

1999/2000 Sonatas - 2.5L V6 Engine problem. Engines stalling. Again, some were replaced, not sure all had to be.

These are the powertrain issues I mentioned. Just didn't have time until now to find the data.

Keep in mind these are just the Sonatas. I did not include the other Hyundai vehicles. Take a look at all Quality and Reliability studies in 1999, 2000 and 2001, Hyundai, as a company, is in the "bottom half" in quite a few of these studies. And in some studies, they still are.

Now, I know that Hyundai has improved their quality and reliability, as most studies show, and maybe their recall record is not as bad as other imports. (I was not discussing Honda and Toyota recalls) I was only addressing the perception that Hyundai vehicles, as a whole, may not be as good as many believe.

I know Ford's recall list is not stellar either. I never said they were great. Just that they have come out with a pretty good trio of cars; Fusion/Milan and Zephyr.

Thanks for the discussions.

littlez

backy:

Thanks for an honest review.

backy

Since these were no recalls on the 1999-2000 Sonata involving the powertrain, I can't find the information you mentioned. Could you please post the links for the details on these problems? I am particularly interested in the number of cars affected by these "major powertrain problems" for the 1999-2000 Sonata. Thanks.

Then maybe we can get back to discussing the 2006 Sonata, Accord, Camry, and Fusion.

bhmr59

If I remember correctly, which I may not, wasn't your original comment about the 10 yr/100,000 mile warratee for the drive train?

The cars you feference don't seem to have hit the 5 year mark (ok, possibly the '99 & '00, depending upon when the problem hit).

My previous car was a '91 Chrysler with a "long for its time" drive train warrantee, 7/70,000. At 56,000 miles and 6 years, 11 months the tranny crapped out. Dealer took care of it under warrantee and waived my $100 deductible. 22 months and 15,000 miles later the second tranny crapped out. Warrantee on the 2nd tranny (I found out at that time that it was a rebuilt, not new) was only 12/mos & 12K miles.

Cost for the third tranny, which I had to pay, was over $1700. And, it performened terribly when the temperature was between 30 and 50 degrees (not good in New England). I took it back to the dealer within a week. Dealer checked it and said nothing was wrong, it met all factory specs. It got worse last winter & I decided it was time to get rid of this 14 year old car with only 110,000.

So, I went 56K without any drive train problems, then 15K on a rebuilt (which I think should have been new) and then paid $1700 for a replacement (probably a rebuild) that didn't function properly immdiately.

Regardless of the make, give me the comfort of a 10 yr/100K drive train warrantee. The warrantee says that if something goes wrong you don't have to pay for it.

Other than the tranny problem the '91 LeBaron GTC convertible was a great car.

goodegg

I checked out a Mazda 6 today but didn't drive it cause it was closing time. But the interior was very nice, moreso than the Fusion. The controls felt good, looked precision, and were laid out just right. Gated shifter with manumatic.

My first time in a 6 (be gentle with me) was favorable, and if it drives anything like it looks, this car is a winner.

How is this car related to the Fusion?