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Hyundai Sonata vs. Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry vs. Ford Fusion
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2006 sales will be: Accord-Camry-Fusion-Sonata
alpha - You just don't like Ford products, do you?
Well, at least according to their website (http://zimmermanhyundai.com/) and the e-mail reply I got back, they are still in business. Sorry to disappoint you oldjoe! :P
I think the slanted H is much more sporty looking that the straight H and I also own a Honda Pilot 2003 (it has had at least three recalls on it by the way, software for the bags, new calipers for the brakes, an additional pump for the trannie and it eats tires like crazy!)
Most people tend to be conformists. I like to be different "sticking it to the man"
Actually I would say that they are making some high quality cars and have been for some time. My daily drive is a 2000 Elantra wagon with 130K on the odometer with no problems whatsoever. My wifes daily drive is an 2002 Accent with 80+K and no problems whatsoever. My daughter drives a 2002 Elantra that has high mileage and she has no problems with it. FWIW I know a few people with older higher mileage Hyundais that tell me they have few, if any, problems.
I think they have proven themselves for long term reliability, all we need now is to have the Hyundai bashers admit that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Looks-wise, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think Fusion looks different than much of what is out there. That will attract a good number of buyers.
I think the Mazda6 is ready for its next evolution.
I like the Fusion very much actually, though I feel its interior lacking and lack of standard and optional safety features appalling given this segment. V6 power is also behind the Accord-Sonata-Altima-G6 3.9-07 Camry, etc... curve. Truth be told, I'd prefer the Milan over the Fusion, based on styling.
2006 sales will not see the Accord on top, IMHO, as the Camry redesign bows in March, and it looks pretty impressive. Toyota just announced officially that the Camry and Camry Hybrid will debut at NAIAS on Jan. 9, for what its worth.
littlez- you just dont like anything that isnt Ford, do you?
~alpha
"JD Power Dependability Study measures problem symptoms of 3-year old vehicles, primarily in categories representing malfunctions; noise, vibration and harshness, drivability, dependability, and safety." The responses are from approximately 50,000 owners. (This number varies by year, but it is usually around 50,000.) Its score is based on problems per 100 vehicles.
Here are the bottom five for every year since 2002.
2002 Study - Kia, Land Rover, Isuzu, Volkswagen, Mitsubishi and Hyundai and Jeep tied.
2003 Study - Kia, Daewoo, Suzuki, Volkswagen, Isuzu and Hyundai
2004 Study - Kia, Daewoo, Isuzu, Hyundai, Volkswagen and Suzuki
2005 Study - Kia, Land Rover, MINI, Volkswagen, Isuzu and Daewoo
Hyundai has improved, per the 2005 Study, and moved up considerably, showing that they have improved their vehicle quality and dependability, since the 2002-model year. Their 2005 Score on problems per 100 vehicles is 260, versus the industry average at 237.
Still a ways to go to "prove themselves for long term reliability" in my opinion.
But Hyundai still has a ways to go to match Toyota and Honda in long-term reliability and quality. If you look at the Consumer Reports' current list of "CR Good Bets" for used cars, there are 54 models on the list. 30 of them are Toyota/Honda vehicles. There are 0 Hyundais on the list.
Sure I do. I'm more of a domestic (not Ford) guy and I see that a lot of quality and reliability items are exaggerated on imports. All domestic interiors are not inferior to imports, some are, some aren't. All domestic cars are not less-safe than imports, some are, some aren't. All domestic cars are not crap, some are, some aren't.
It really bothers me when people lump all domestics and all imports in two different categories. It's not that simple.
There are some very good domestics out there. They are worth a look from those who defected years ago.
Elantra. Cost 3K less, and she keeps raving about
how great it is compared to the Mazda. The Mazda
was continually in the shop for one thing or another,
right after the warranty wore out. The Elantra
was almost 5K less than a comparable Civic, and it
had many more standard features.
afford a Lincoln Town Car, or a Cadillac.
I can't think of any other domestic I would even
consider, after my experiences with GM and Ford.
I have had quite a few, actually, mainly because
of price. I had a Camaro, Firebird, Chevy Celebrity
(biggest piece of junk I ever owned), Ford Fairmont
(2nd biggest), 2 Ford Probes. I seriously doubt
I would ever even look at a domestic again. But
the Hyundais are made in Alabama, so aren't they
domestic. My Chevy was made in Canada.
You can keep with the JD Powers, I actually talk to those who own the cars.
I will say it again Hyundai has proven their reliability all we have to do is get the Hyundai bashers to admit that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Based on this trust and their reports, Hyundai has not proved their reliability. I'm not a Hyundai "basher". I just believe they are way over-rated.
Again, I will say they have improved their reliability since 2002. Just have a ways to go to "prove" to me they are more reliable than other manufacturers.
I think it will take the Sonata 2 years to prove it can hang with CamCord in the minds of the general public, not just in the minds of current Hyundai owners.
If the 07 Sonata gets a new drivers seat then that makes it a better contender in my book.
Fine by me but I will trust people that actually own and drive the cars that give me first hand experience. While the sample sizes may be small it is statistically extremely unlikely that the hyundai owners I have talked to tell me that their occurance of trouble is no more than what Honda owners say. Given that you say that Honda is so good and Hyundai is so bad statistically even a small sample would show a difference.
As I said before Hyundai has shown that they are as reliable as any other car all we need to do is have the hyundai bashers admit it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You haven't worked with samples much have you? A sample size that is not large enough makes the data collected invalid. Your small sample size, statiscally, makes your data invalid when using it to describe all Hyundais sold.
If I walk down my street and ask everyone who owns a Hyundai to talk about their experiences, but ignored every other street in my neighborhood, my data would be invalid due to the small number of neighbors I talked to. If I talked to 4 people on my street they had no problems, that's 100% satisfaction. But if only 1 person on another street owned a Hyundai and had a bad experience, your satisfaction number drops to 80%. Add one more from the next street and now you're down to 67% satisfaction. I agree that when you have another person with a good experience, it will increase the satisfaction level. Works both ways, obviously.
"...I will trust people that actually own and drive the cars..."
That is exactly what JD Power does. They talk to the people who actually own and drive all vehicles.
That, my friend, is also "completely subjective" and a pretty stupid comment. We're just talking about cars here.
You know, that may just as well be a result of short inventories as Hyundai changed over to the new model year version of the Elantra (and reduced rebates due to already low inventories of the 05 model) and is selling off the 05 Accent in preparation for the debut of the all new 06 Accent. And don't forget they seem to be putting nearly all their current advertising dollars on the new Sonata.
Maybe. But Accord and Civic numbers didn't do that when they changed over to new models.
Hyundai has a ways to go to convince America they are high quality and not just low priced. Good luck to them. Competition is always good. Look how Ford's getting their jock handed to them by the imports.
Actually as an accountant I use statistical sample quite often.
Your small sample size, statiscally, makes your data invalid when using it to describe all Hyundais sold.
I would agree with you if I was using maybe 3 or 5 cars but I am not. Say if a car has a 20% chance of having something major go wrong than than statistically looking at 4 cars is way to small as statistically the 5th car would be the issue. If you looked at 10 cars than statistically 2 cars would have a major problem, but still is not statistically relevant. The greater the sample the more likely that one major event will happen. My point is that if Hyundai is as bad as your saying and showing in the JD powers even a small sample statistically should show a somewhat noticeable increase in problems. This is not the case.
If I walk down my street and ask everyone who owns a Hyundai to talk about their experiences, but ignored every other street in my neighborhood, my data would be invalid due to the small number of neighbors I talked to.
that statement shows you know NOTHING about statistics. Your example you sampled 50% of the universe (give or take since the number of Hyundai owners will vary from block to block). Any statitision would give their right arm to have a 50% sampling. Statistical sampling is done with far less sampling than you just said. Some with less than 10% some election polls are way below 1%. Fact is using your criteria JD powers is invalid because they don't ask every Hyundai owner.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
There are many other examples I could cite, sorry to say I can't trust anything CR says, if they told me the sky was blue I would check to make sure.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'm surprised that, as an accountant, you don't know that there is specific number in any sample size that will more closely represent the whole. You don't have to ask all to get close to the number. You just have to have the correct number in your sample. And there is a "correct" sample size.
I work with statistics in the automobile industry every day. I do know something about statistics.
In my example, I only used 3 blocks. If my neighborhood had 30 blocks in it, my example of 67% satisfaction could be closer to reality than your 100% satisfaction number. The real number may be higher than 67%, but definitely lower than your 100% number.
Again you are showing that you know NOTHING about statistics. Size is MEANINGLESS if it does not fairly represent the cross section of the universe. Its not the size of the sample but how it represents the universe that is important.
Also I never said 100% I said that there was no difference between what Hyundai owners have told me and what drivers of Hondas or Toyotas have expressed. So please don't put words in my mouth.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
1998 – 2002 Accord has significant problems with transmission/driveline and moderate problems with engines.
1998 – 2002 Camry has significant problems with engine.
1998 – 2002 Ford Taurus has moderate problems with engines and moderate problems with accessories.
1998 – 2001 Sonata has moderate problems with engines while 2002 Sonata has an excellent record.
This is a good indication how reliable a car is after warranty expires. Before warranty expires, the malfunction of a car is manufacture’s problem. After that, it is owner’s problem.
Reliability/Quality Record
Gregorios Sachinidis, a Greek taxi driver who holds the known record of 2,852,000 miles in his 1976 Mercedes-Benz 240D (http://www.asna-atae.com/newsdetail.asp?id=24).
BTW - CR has the best sedan as the Accord. Sure it could have any of the other 3, but it wasn't.
All good cars tho. I think we all like good cars. Watch the Chery come soon. There will be some blogging then.
Accents and Elantras are Hyundais, and support the less than appealing perception of the company by the American consumer.
I will agree with you that the sample size must fairly represent the cross section you are looking at.
My point is your sample size is not as relevant as someone who has talked to more people, JD Power in this case. The more consumers you talk to, the better representation of the whole your sample size is. So, as I said before, size does matter. And as you said, a fair representation of the cross section of the universe is also. Yours is not a fair representation of the universe. JD Power's is more fair.
Didn't mean to "put words in your mouth".
Just as an FYI for you, ontop:
Sonata November sales (US only) for the last 5 years:
Nov 2001 5923
Nov 2002 5456
Nov 2003 5973
Nov 2004 6557
Nov 2005 14216 ! :shades: All information from Hyundai's corporate website open to all at http://ir.hyundai-motor.com/eng/index.html
While "you" might consider the 04 sales to have been dismal, they were actually in line with sales from the previous years. In each of the previous 4 years, Hyundai sold approx 90,000 to 100,000 Sonatas per year. At the current sales pace of the new 06 Sonata, they will easily meet or exceed their stated goal of 150,000 new 06 Sonatas sold in the US.
Additionally, Hyundai's overall US sales are up approx 10% YTD in the US. Taken as a whole, not bad for a car company that some people want to bury and thoroughly trash. :P
And yes, I am a Hyundai owner. I own an 04 Sonata LX (wife's car) and an 05 Tucson LX AWD (mine). Also, my sister purchased a Tucson based on our experiences with our Hyundais and we all are very satisified with our vehicles.
In other words you can randomly pick 20% of the population and I can selectively pick 5% so that its makeup corresponds to the universe as a whole. My 5% will most likely be more accurate than your 20%, at worst it would be the same.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Also Hyundai's U.S. sales in November were its best ever for that month.
As was mentioned by someone else, Hyundai had supply problems in November on the Accent and Elantra. The 2005s were in short supply, and the 2006s had either not arrived yet (Accent) or were just trickling in. You can see that in how Hyundai brought the rebates on the Elantra down to almost nothing--they had few cars to sell. This was an inventory issue, pure and simple--not a quality or perception issue.
What? You are kidding right?
You can hand pick any group to make the results come out to the way you want them. Political pollsters do it all the time.
The more relevant samples, are random. And the larger the random sampling, the more representative of the whole.
snakeweasel, (With a name like yours I would think you would know that size does matter.)
If you want to respond, fine, but let's talk about something else. OK?
Who's right and why?
FWIW, the Fusion edged the Sonata 205 to 202. So change the scores just a bit in 1-2 categories and now it's the Sonata over the Fusion. See how important personal preferences are?
If this trend continues, the Koreans are going to have a harder time keeping their price advantage.
Wonder what the prices of Sonata v. Accord will look like in ten years.
http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/convert?from=JPY&to=KRW&amt=1&t=2y
Nope and if you knew anything about statistics you would know that.
You can hand pick any group to make the results come out to the way you want them. Political pollsters do it all the time.
While that is true I am talking about picking a sample that reflects the universe. For example if I am sampling Honda Accords and say 5% of them are 4 cylinder engines with 5 speed manuals I would do my best to have 5% of 4 cylinder with 5 speed manuals in my sample. Not to do that would increase my margin of error. Thats what I mean about selecting a sample.
The more relevant samples, are random. And the larger the random sampling, the more representative of the whole.
Not entirely true. While randomness is needed one has to remember that randomness will not always give you a reflection of the population as a whole. If 20% of your population has certain characteristics you want 20% of your population with those same charateritics. Complete randomness might give you 20% or it might get you 10% or even 30% and that increases your margin of error. So a smaller sample with 20% of them having those characteristics will be more accurate that a large sample where 30% have those charateritics.
A relevant sample will reflect the population as a whole and that means you would have to exclude some of the sample and/or go looking for more information.
snakeweasel, (With a name like yours I would think you would know that size does matter.)
You wouldn't say that if you knew how I got the name.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My test drive of the Sonata was positive except for the seat issue that others referred to (I was unaware of others' similar complaint when I offered my opinion).
I'd like to check out the Azera and see if it has better seats. More money, but more car. Its not in my area's dealer showrooms yet however.
Let's agree to disagree on which statistics are correct.
So, whenever I need to compare the quality and reliability of, let's say a Nissan and a Ford, can I call you so you can talk to your friends and relatives?
We'll save "snakeweasel" for another thread.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Nov 2001 5923
Nov 2002 5456
Nov 2003 5973
Nov 2004 6557
Nov 2005 14216!
That's a really impressive jump in my opinion. Thanks for sharing this info with us.
I never used the words, bottom of the barrel, did I? I'm really asking myself this question because I can't remember.
But, up until the 2005 JD Power Dependability Study, Hyundai was in the bottom five. They have improved greatly since 2002, most studies show that. And that is using a fairly large sample.