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My neighbor has a 2000 Impala that has been more reliable than another neighbor's 1999 Nissan Maxima and the 2002 Honda Accord that he got to replace the Maxima. He now drives a 2005 Toyota Camry because he got disgusted with the many reliability problems of the Nissan Maxima :sick: and Honda Accord. :sick:
(AND, yes, his Accord was Made in Japan...not one of the Made in America Accords).
People now buy Hyundai and Kia because they are CHEAP just like Honda and Toyota were when they started buying them. Fortunately, most of these were as reliable as the American made cars so they continue to buy them.
I guess I'm going to have to start removing posts that aren't on topic, much as I wish that was not the case ...
The new Camry will undoubtedly be good as well as the Acord and possibly Fusion. Ford may have improved since your last experience with them. My last Ford product was 25 years ago and it wasn't good.
It should all come down to what you like (based on more than styling) when you are ready to buy and the price of the various cars you consider. Hyundai is a serious player and worth considering.
~alpha
Guess I may just have to go with the Sonata, and save the difference, as well as enjoy the dealership, vs the Toyota guy.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Sonata - great value and accelerating quality
Fusion - it's impressive on papers. In fact, if it was 'Toyota' Fusion , then I would have considered it more seriously. Unfortunately, it is FORD Fusion. So it can't be good. General public made a mistake when Focus came out. They thought it was a Corolla/Civic killer. Instead, it didn't even make to that level and got eaten by Hyundai Elantra. I am certain that Fusion shares the exact same fate.
It's BS over-generalizations like this that makes your post a joke. Are you a psychic or something, since you're "certain" of the Fusion's fate?
Look back at the numbers. How many years since the Focus and Elantra were out together did Elantra outsell Focus? In total, Focus has outsold the Elantra since they were introduced.
Also, Focus has been a "Recommended Buy" at C/R for the past couple of years. To me, that says something about the car.
Through September 2005, almost 23% of all Sonata sales in the US were to fleets. That is a fact. Since October and November registrations have not yet been released, no one knows what percentage of their increase in November was due to fleets. If their current history is any indication, it will be somewhere around 19% - 23%.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I work in the automobile business, so I have access to their monthly registration reports. If you want, tomorrow when I'm back at work, and can give you the actual numbers. (I only remembered the percentages.)
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Profit margin is next to nothing, so manufacturers end up giving away the vehicles. Too man units in fleets hurt resale values. Happens to most who don't monitor the number of units in fleets. 23% is quite a bit.
"Neither does Ford"
Last year Ford removed over 120,000 units from major fleets and rental companies. It lowered the total number of sales and increased the residual values of many of its vehicles.
Ford and GM rates are MUCH higher- reference high volume models like the Taurus and Crown Vic where >75% of those vehicle sales are fleet. The last data I saw which represented something like Sept 04 through March 05 had Camry fleet sales at a hair over 14%.
~alpha
That's not saying much.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It's details like this that continue to impress me.
This makes sense based on the fact that thru Sept they wre traditionally doing abt 8000 units monthly - all from Korea. Thus abt 2000 units/mo to fleets.
Starting in Oct/Nov the Alabama plant kicked in and the deliveries jumped up to almost double the traditional monthly figure. I'd be surprised if the fleet sales % stayed at 23% with 15K units. I would expect maybe 15-20%. But let's see what the real registrations are.
In any event, you have disproven another poster's claim that Sonata's 117% increase in sales for 11/05 vas 11/04 was mostly due to fleet sales.
Current YTD vs Last YTD are cloudly since the new model '06's hit the street sometime in late May. The Nov to Nov comparison gives a clearer picture since we are looking at the '05 model vs the '06 model. Even if fleet sales bumped from 20% to 23% from Nov. to Nov. retail sales obviously increased greatly and increased fleet sales accounted for a small portion of the 117% increase.
So there, whatsyourname.
I think that is one of the major mistakes that a car manufacturer can make. These cars show up on the market 1 or 2 yrs later and flood the market therefore the resale value is very low.
Friend of mine is a salesman for a Ford dealership...they were taken for a test drive...Fusion, Camry and Accord.
Sonata was not included...they (Ford) rated the Accord tops.
The residual value of the car 4 yrs down the road is a good indicator if the car will succeed and Huyndai has along way to go.
Also, friend just picked up XG 350 and traded his Sonata.
He got killed on the trade in.
Webby
Why isn't the Camry's resale value hurt significantly by all the Camrys in fleets? Because it has a long-standing reputation for reliability. That is why the Sonata and other Hyundais don't have strong resale value yet--they don't have a long-term history for reliability. Once they build that reputation, their resale value will improve.
Rental companies buy vehicles all year long, so they don't have to wait for bargain basement prices. Their price is fairly standard all year long.
The 117% increase poster provided some bad data for all on the forum. He (I'm guessing he's a he), used retail data from last year and total data from this year. The true increase is closer to 71%. But, since that is total sales, a good number of those sales probably went to rental companies. Won't know the exact number until January.
Through September YTD, Sonata retail sales improved 457 units. During the same time, total sales improved 3,575 units. That means that, of the 3,575 unit increase, 87% was due to fleets.
littlez, did you even follow the link to the Hyundai Sonata source of the post in msg #1583? ALL of those figures are retail sales. The retail sales improved 117% . . . period. All your comments over the past few days about fleet sales are bogus and completely irrelevant because the sales data is retail only. Go back and read message #1583, follow the link to the source and read it. The data is taken directly from the Hyundai Investor Relations website. There are tables for 2005 US Retail Sales, 2004 US Retail Sales, 2003 US Retail Sales . . . etc.
We know the typical consumer must be more frequently comparing and choosing the Sonata over other cars and what I wonder is if those "other cars" might be the Accord, Camry, or Fusion.
Of course, maybe this will be short-lived, because the new Camry to me looks to be very good, very competitive, and another step in manufacturers' raising of the bar . . . very good for all of us consumers!
Plus, I trust RL Polk registration data, compared to Hyundai sales data. When the November registration data gets here in January and it shows otherwise, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong.
As I said earlier, as of September YTD Sonata's retail increase was only 457 units. That's not taking much away from anyone.
Agreed that it is NOT a large sample but one of the new Camrys replaced a 2002 Accord and the lone Accord replaced a different 2002 Accord. :sick:
The Fusion is a no-show here too. And the Sonata is a good car, but the styling is very dated. Got the 90s thing going, but many people are OK with bland.
I works with folks on a daily basis who still will not touch anything that doesn't say Intel, and are happy to pay a premium for the name brand.
The internet is here, use it to research the facts.
I have a Ford and has been totally satisfy with the reliability for the last 5 years. I am now in market for a replacement which is why I am here. I am considering the Fusion, Sonata and G6.
Saw my first Fusion on the road today. I think there's a lot of people that want to see Ford do well with this model. Me included. And I agree that most cars are well built and will be there for you if maintained properly.
But with so many other choices in this sector I think Ford has a tough battle on it,s hand. The world has changed and I hope Ford can cope. No one wants to see Ford tank.
I'm replacing soon too, but Fusion isn't my choice.
At least all the other makers still offer something for us radicals that still drive a stick shift. Toyota seems to be doing away with it entirely on their new models (RAV4, Camry from what I have heard).
Actually, only Ford and Honda let you get a loaded (leather, roof, etc) car with a stick, and Honda even offers it on the V6 now. Hyundai decided if you like to cook your head you must not like to shift your own gears, for some reason.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Lets see you said loaded then mentioned roof, are you saying stripped down versions don't have roofs?
Hyundai decided if you like to cook your head you must not like to shift your own gears, for some reason.
You can get a loaded Elantra GT with leather seats in a manual. Also note that the autos that come in the Hyundais (Except the Elantra and the Accent) have a shiftable mode, which is much better than Fords 6 speed auto which only lets you choose drive or low (and what gear is low?).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
as an old folks car, kind of like an Oldsmobile.
I don't get that feeling from an Accord, or my Sonata.
Do you live in a retirement community.
about the great price he got on a loaded Fusion - 25K.
A similar Accord is about 27K, as is a Camry. You cannot
pay over 22K, no matter what you put into the Sonata.
Maybe Sonata shouldn't even be in this forum vs.
these higher priced cars. Maybe we should just have
a Sonata GL vs GLS vs GLS V6 vs LX ?
Better luck next time you try to trash a Camry and say the UGLY Accord is better. :sick:
~alpha
Why should price eliminate a car from the forum. I would think that since the Sonata is a viable alternative to the Accord, camry and the Fusion it should be included even though it may be a few thousand less.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
They seemed to LOVE the Azera. They really did.
They thought the Sonata was a great car too. Giving it high praise for taking on and beating the Camry at its own game, but they also noted that the "Camry is no longer the benchmark" and that Hyundai maybe should have aimed a bit higher. They did like the interior but noted that some areas were a bit cheap and spartan compared to the competition (another point I used to make, but to each his own) They felt that the Azera might overshawdow the new Sonata in the end...and I'm doubting that.
The Fusion was praised too it seemed. But they went on to say that the Fusion will impress folks who typically buy domestic and that's a good thing, but the car probably won't impress those used to Hondas and Toyotas. They also noted that the interior materials were cheap...I could have told ya'll this was coming. They acutally seemed to like the Milian better overall and they had nothing bad to say about the Zephyr except that its expensive and less fun to drive than the Milian/Fusion.
Zen2, if you seriously want to debate the trim levels of the current Sonata, that needs to be done in the existing dedicated Hyundai Sonata 2006+ discussion.
One of the areas where the Sonata could improve considerably (07?) is the HVAC/audio/dashboard design. This too has received some negtive comments from a lot of publications, and if Hyundai does make that change, the Sonata could become well nigh unbeatable (IMHO)
This too has received some negtive comments from a lot of publications,...
Can you name three? I ask because I've seen a lot of reviews on the Sonata, and I don't remember a lot of them being negative on the HVAC/audio/dashboard design. C/D for example commented positively on the placement of the audio controls and the overall dash design, that makes the cockpit feel spacious. I've read other reviews that comment positively on the high placement of the audio controls and the quality of the HVAC controls. I did read one review that said the rotary knobs on the audio system felt "cheap".