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thanks again for your assistance,
pete(uk)
The second problem with the whine in the axles or transmission. We have experienced the same problem. So fare we had the whole rear end replace, then just the internal gears and pinion. We still have the problem and our vehicle is on its way to the shop this week. We have had the local dealership check the problem on several occasions other than when they actually replaced parts. Basically, if the fan switch is set to 3 and the problem can be heard then they will rebuild it.
We are also now experiencing the problem in the front axle. During the last warranty repair of the rear axle we had them check the front. They did nothing at the time. Now the problem is much worse and can be heard over the fan being set to 4 and the radio playing. Good luck, there is a problem here and I don't think Ford has a fix for either problem above.
But pinion and axle seal leaks would be coming from different spots under the truck........
Anyway, clever of you to notice that when you loaded the vehicle up the leaks resulted.
Perhaps electric design could share with us just what parts are failing on these diffs.I for one am quite curious to know, and someone who has worked on several would have a good idea.
1. Does the clunk happen when you shift from park to drive, or only after you start to move the vehicle in drive? Motor mounts usually clunk when you do the shift.
2. Same question, but when shifting from park to reverse.
3. Any apparent transmission shift problems going up through the gears, or when downshifting? Would you say gear shifts are related to the noise or not?
4. Your transmission will in most cases cause the overdrive light on the dash to flash when it is having problems . Does this light flash or has the check engine light come on?
5. What type of four wheel drive do you have? Is it control trac ( that's the name here)? Are you driving in 4wd AUTO when this happens? If so, I am suspecting possibly a transfer case problem.
In 4wd HIGH the transfer case locks in the front axle. BUT, you never want to drive on dry pavement this way, as the front axle spins a little faster than the rear axle. This causes axle windup in the front axle, which will usually be relieved by wheel hopping in turns (suspension seize?). If you don't turn much, it can be relieved by clutch slippage in the transfer case, or more damaging ways
In 4wd AUTO, the engagement / disengagement of the front axle by the transfer case is supposed to happen automatically - no input from you. The General Electronic Control module sends electric pulses to the transfer case to engage the transfer case clutch packs as necessary. There are speed sensors on the front and rear driveshafts it uses to decide how much front axle engagement is necessary. It can engage from 10% up to 100% lock if I recall correctly. Could be a malfunction here (sensor, clutch packs) is forcing you into100% four wheel and then you have the problem, which mught very well cause your clunking. An electrical or sensor issue should cause your 4wd lights to flash indicating a malfunction, but a clutch pack problem may not.
You don't have a 2wd position I don't think. If you do, switch to it during the problem
6. Do you have the air ride suspension?
7. What speeds has the clunking happened at?
Ford in the U.S.uses a "new generation STAR tester" to read codes and diagnose electrical / operational problems. You should ask the dealer if they have this tester to hook up to your vehicle. If not, call FORD customer service and see if they can find you a dealer that does. Also, quiz the service manager at the Ford dealership and ask if he has a really good four wheel drive guy.
Without the tester, you may have to shop for a good four wheel drive mechanic and take him for a ride. I think some of the Land Rovers have similar systems.
Hope that gave you an idea or two!
There is some confusion as to where the leak is. Has the leak been in different places each time, or the same place each time? The dealer says left side, then right? I would check the paperwork and ask exactly where and what the problem was each time. If leaking at the FRONT seal, which is in the center, where the driveshaft connects to the differential, then the cause is most likely loose or worn PINION GEAR SHAFT BEARINGS, which causes the seal to wear and leak. There are TWO pinion gear shaft bearings, one in the FRONT right behind the seal, and one in the REAR near the PINION GEAR itself. They are about 5 inches apart. The PINION GEAR and the PINION GEAR SHAFT are all one piece, it is simply the gear with the shaft sticking out the front of it. A bearing is at each end of the shaft, to hold the Pinion Gear rock steady. If the front seal has been leaking repeatedly, then BOTH PINION GEAR SHAFT BEARINGS should be replaced. They may be short cutting and replacing only the FRONT PINION GEAR SHAFT BEARING and the PINION SEAL, leaving the REAR PINION SHAFT BEARING untouched. The problem will reappear if the REAR BEARING is bad and loosens up, allowing play in the PINION GEAR SHAFT. The PINION GEAR SHAFT must be held absolutely rock steady to maintain it's critical alignment with the RING GEAR. The Pinion Gear Shaft is installed TIGHT in the bearings by carefully tightening the Pinion Shaft Nut to compress the bearings a small amount, to a preload setting of about 6 to 8 inch/pounds. There is NO allowable play in the Pinion Gear Shaft. If you grab the driveshaft at the rear universal joint, right in front of the rear differential, and push hard side to side, there should be NO play at all, NO sound it all, not even the slightest click. If there is play, then the pinion bearings are bad. If the Pinion Bearings need to be replaced, the differential must be dismantled, both axles removed, the carrier and ring gear removed, Pinion Gear with Bearings removed and the housing cleaned. Then everything needs to be carefully checked, parts replaced and then the differential must be properly SET UP. If the gears are ok, a new REAR PINION BEARING is pressed onto the PINION GEAR SHAFT, the PINION GEAR SHAFT is installed, new FRONT PINION BEARING and CRUSH SLEEVE is installed from the front. Then with special tools, the PINION GEAR depth mush be checked and set. It is set by changing the PINION GEAR THRUST WASHER, available in different thicknesses, usually about .025" works ok. Once the PINION GEAR depth and BEARINGS are all correctly set, PINION GEAR SHAFT preload set, then the CARRIER with the RING GEAR is carefully inspected. It has large CARRIER BEARINGS on each end that support it. The axles pass through the CARRIER BEARINGS. If the Pinion Bearings were replaced, it is a safe bet that the Carrier Bearings need to be replaced also. Once the Carrier is checked to be ok and all bearings and spider and axle gears and clutch pack are checked to be ok, it is installed back into the housing, and the PINION GEAR to CARRIER GEAR BACKLASH is checked. It should be in the range of .006" to .010", with .008 being ideal. If the backlash is too tight or too loose, then the carrier will need to be adjusted with new shims, until the backlash is correct. Then the Carrier Bearing Caps are torqued down. Then the axles and axle bearings are checked, axle shaft seals are checked, replace any that are loose or leaking, then both axles are installed. Once everything is tightened down, it is checked again, then the rear cover sealed and installed. The the rear differential is filled up to the fill hole with the proper synthetic lubricant, and friction modifier if the differential is the limited slip type. Then final road test, and it's done, hopefully for many, many miles.
If the leak is only at the sides (at the wheels), you may only need axle bearing(s) and seal(s). The differential does not need to be totally dismanteled, but the rear wheels and brakes need to come off, and differential cover removed to release the
axles. Then of course replace parts, replace axles, reseal and replace cover, and fill to fill hole with proper synthetic lubricant and friction modifier if the differential is the limited slip type.
If they can't repair it correctly, I would insist that they replace the differential.
I hope it helps.
Let us know how it goes.
E.D.
tidester, host
Respectfully,
Tickedoff2
there is no clunk when i use the gear shift in any of the gears there is no noise from the gears at all they are as smooth as silk.
when in cruise control and the engine needs more power and the auto cruise control works as it should its then the clunking and rough ride comes into its own you have to hold on to the wheel because the steering goes all over the place and is very very light,i then have to touch the break pedal to cut out the cruise control and slow the car down the noise stops and the car is normal again,untill i accellerate away again but very gently the noise reappears but no where as bad obviousley less torque is being applied,once it got so bad i stopped the car on the moterway and i kicked the left hand wheel,in temper got back in the car and believe it or not the car drove perfect for the next 100 miles or so using heavey accelleration and the cruise control it drives like a dream and very fast when everything works .so that brings me back to my first thoughts that as it is intermittent i believe strongly that it is an electrical problem.
there has been no warning lights on and the overdrive light has never flashed ,the overdrive works as it should as quite often i use it as breaking on inclines.
i am driving in four wheel drive auto at all times ,but saying that i have had no problems in engaging high or low and all work as they should
i do not have a two wheel drive position
the suspension i am not to sure i have an isolation switch which must be turned of when jacking up the car or in suspended tow.
i strongly like your idea about the sensor clutch pack problem,also i have tried to locate the speed sensors because it actually feels like the drive shaft is trying to engage but cannot.
as to speeds when you move of steady there is very minor noise and clunking but as you speed up the clunking gets louder if you accellerate hard it is very bad,but i must point out when everything is ok you can accellerate as fast as you like and as hard as you like and she flies and i mean flies so responsive and quick its
a dream to drive,
lastly i was in france a week ago i got of the ferry and the noise and clunking was still there i settled down at 70mph for 100miles just a gentle drive and hardley any noise ,when i applied the gas peddle to go up hill the clunking gets worse but with control you can live with it,any how i had to slow down for the paeage (toll booth) as i approached the booth i just touched the kerb with my left wheel,i stopped payed the man and you guessed it the knockes and rough ride had completly gone i could cruise at a ton for the next 150 miles no problems with cruise control on and when that engine kicks in for more power she flies and there is not an inkling that there is nothing wrong,pulled in for gas and yes it was back just the same as it was when i got of the ferry. it has to be electricalo!!!!!
thanks again pete.
Here is what's written on the work orders ( i don't have the first one in front of me so it will be for the 2nd time and 3rd time):
J# 47F0Z09 Diff Fluid Leak :sick:
- customer states differential fluid leaking
- rt side axle was grooved and causing seal to leak
- axle 4K138 - racked vehicle and verified leak
- cleaned area and added dye
- road tested and then repacked vehicle, checked with blk light
- found leak at rt side axle seal
- removed rt side axle assem and inspected - found axle grooved
- replaced axle and seal on the right side
- reassembled and road tested again (ok)
Parts:
3L1Z-4A109-AA (KIT SE RR AX H)
1L2Z-4K138-CB (SHIFT & JT ASY)
J# 47F0Z01 Axle Concern :sick:
-customer states rear end differential leaking fluid ck and advise
-check for leak at rear diff concern
-verified fluid at left axle area
-possible seal concern
-remove left rear axle and remove seal and install new axle seal
-reinstall axle and top off fluid in diff
-rd test
-no leak seen
PARTS
3L1Z-4A109-AA (KIT - SHAFT RE)
10081 (PARTS CLEANER)
hmmmmmm... come to think about it, they did not even disassemble the axle to check for the problem this very last time and instead they just replaced the seal :confuse:
also, they have never mentioned what kind of fluid they used after each fix. the first time it leaked, the fluid was kind of a light greyish color (i supposed that's the synthetic) and the second time and 3rd time it's kind of a brownish color.
Put the truck in 4wd HIGH and drive it a ways on dry pavement. Normally you would not do this, but lets see if it produces the same noises and syptoms as 4wd AUTO
in 4wd HIGH you will lock the transfer case clutch pack, and be in 100% four wheel drive. Your front axle will have to get rid of the "windup" in the front axle, and my guess is that you will have the same issues.
Remember to go back to 4wd auto when you are done.
Do you think the pinion bearings are underdesigned for the application? I can't believe these are all being set up wrong at the factory. Have they gone to tougher bearings?
Thanks.
funny thing you should mention carrying something fairly heavy in the cargo area. i was flying on the highway over the weekend and felt the suspension hit the bump stops. not too hard, but i felt it. noticed the leak last night.
Usually the axle seal leaks are a seepage that starts out slowly, then wets the inside of the tire when it gets bad, has to be really bad to drip on the ground, usually runs off the tire.
I don't know what color there synthetic lube is, because I use Mobile One Synthetic Differential Lube, and I forget what color it is. You can tell if the lube is bad, if it looks milky or has metal in it.
From what you posted, it doesn't even sound like they are working on your complaint. You said it leaked in the CENTER, between the 2 wheels, and they are fixing axle seals. They replaced the right axle and right axle seal, then they replaced the left axle seal. They had to pull the axle out each time to replace the axle seal, so that means they had to pull the cover off the differential to unlock the axles (they unlock from the center). The word "differential" refers to the entire rear axle assembly. That means they had to reseal and reinstall the cover and refill it with new fluid. It may be very possible that the cover is leaking, or even the fill hole plug could be leaking. But very unlikely the plug would be leaking, unless they forgot to tighen it. It might behove you to put on you old clothes, park the vehicle over a dry ditch and crawl underneath to have a good look at it. You may be able to see what is going on then. Wipe wet spots down with a rag, then drive it for a spell, then crawl under it and check for leaks again. It appears that they did not replace the differential (entire rear axle assembly). That would be the next thing that you should insist on if it is not repaired properly. That's about all I can say for now.
exploded99:
"Do you think the pinion bearings are underdesigned for the application? I can't believe these are all being set up wrong at the factory. Have they gone to tougher bearings?"
I am not a FORD mechanic, so I can't speak for them. I used to be a Chevrolet mechanic and a Chrysler mechanic many years ago, and now I just work on my Fords.
From what I have been able to gather so far, it appears that FORD may be using inferior parts, maybe not directly their fault, it may be their suppliers fault. I do know that the FORD 8.8" differential has had a fine reputation for being a good reliable differential, or at least it used to. The bearings are strong enough the way they are designed. They may be suffering in Quality lately. Many of the JEEP people are putting the FORD 8.8" differential in their JEEPs. They have web sites devoted to this. I built pre 2002 FORD 8.8" differentials and they are strong units and give very few problems, no inheirent design problems, I have seen them fail mostly from being worn out by too many miles, or water gets into them and eats the bearings.
Good luck,
E.D.
another thing is, 15 bags of wood chips really aren't that heavy. i'm sure 4 guys sitting back there would have been heavier (i have 3rd row seat on my truck).
Generally, Ford has made reliable drivetrains ( with some auto trannys as exceptions). Couple of years ago I talked to a guy who has a differential shop - he said he made his living mostly off of Jeeps and Chevys. Fords did not come in much. Haven't had the occasion to talk to him since.
change of subject i have just heard that terrorist have blown up three underground stations and a bus in london.
speak to you soon
cant see nothing leaking on the ground. was leaking transmission fluid from the radiator lines I replaced them but the problem persists it fells like its loosing power can somebody tell me whats wrong how to fix this problem? :confuse:
also had cross terrains put on replacing goodyear ap's. they seem to ride much smoother. hope they do as well in rain and snow. the goody's were very sensitive to pavement(vibration). one thing i found out is that there are 2 models of cross terrains. the 235's have a 420 treadwear rating and the 245's have a 700 rating.
taking a long road trip next week, 5 people, cargo carrier, maybe some bikes hanging off the back, so that should tell me something.
I checked the MC and both ports squirt plenty of fluid. Could this be something in the proportioning valve needing a reset? or the ABS solenoid. I have never seen an ABS light on the dash, but then its a used vehicle so who knows...
Adam
Brake fluid becomes a problem when left in the system too long. I strongly recommend to flush and bleed the brakes every 30,000 miles, best to do it along with your major service that you should be doing every 30,000 miles, which includes new engine oil, engine oil filter, chasis lube, Automatic transmission flush+ filter+ new fluid, flush and bleed brake fluid, top off rear axle fluid level, etc....Flush and refill radiator coolant every 5 years or sooner, always use DISTILLED WATER mixed with the antifreeze in the Radiator. and used distilled water added to the battery.
Good Luck,
E.D.
If your vehicle was subject to the Ford Motor Company recall (TSB) 04B22, to install additive to doctor up incorrect transmission fluid installed at the time of manufacture.
If your transmission is not operating smoothly with consistency whether on the highway, or, when the vehicle is at a complete standstill and is being shifted from drive to reverse, reverse to drive, or park to reverse. If your transmission either harshly or violently engages, has an unusual delay in engaging or does not engage until the accelerator is depressed, it is a certainty that other driveline components are being damaged and the transmission is being further damaged.
If you are getting the runaround from Ford Motor Company and they will not authorize your dealer to do any further transmission corrective work under warranty and contacting FoMoCo's Customer Relationship Center has not corrected your situation, I suggest that you write a letter addressed to:
Board of Directors
Ford Motor Company
P.O. Box 685
Dearborn, MI 48126-0685
U.S.A.
More information can be found about this at:
www://ford.com/en/company/corporateGovernance/boardOfDirectors
When the home page comes on screen, click on Contact Information in the left margin. Also, of interest is James J. Padilla, president and chief operating officer of Ford Motor Company. "Padilla joined Ford in 1966 as a quality control engineer"....
I had asked the CRC more than once if I could have the address for the president or board of directors and I was told that it was not available, everything had to go through the CRC, others say everything must go through the dealer.
Many of us know that the Boss is usually the last to know; it is now time they know how some of their faithful customers are being treated by their subordinates. If you put your return address on your correspondence they will acknowledge receipt of all communications sent to the above address.
The problem is not that a mistake has been made; the problem is how Ford Motor Company is addressing their mistake.
The more letters the better, I plan to send them a copy of my complete file by certified mail/return receipt.
Adam
In your orginal post you said "I even tried an air powered bleeder and virtually no fluid came out", you made no mention of connecting the air powered bleeder "to the line in back before the cylinders". What exactly does that mean? Do you take loose a line between the proportioning valve and the rear wheel cylinders?
I have seen people use pressure bleeders and vacuum bleeders, but I have always had success bleeding by pumping the brake pedal and using a small hose that goes into a small catch bottle, at the wheel cylinder. It is a one man operation, simple and easy, moving the hose and bottle from one wheel to the other. Do rr first, lr second, rf third, and lf fourth. If you are sure that you are getting no fluid pressure to the rear wheel cylinders, then there is obviously a blockage. THis can happen by contamination in the system. One mistake that is commonly made by people doing their own brakes, is that they push the calipher pistons and the wheel cylinder pistons back in, forcing dirty brake flluid back up through the system. This should always be avoided by opening the brake bleeder screw on the calipher or wheel cylinder when pushing the piston back in, so that the old fluid will be forced out of the bleeder, and put new fluid in the Master Cylinder.
Good Luck,
E.D.
Can someone tell me where to find it?
I've just seen reference to a new TSB 05-12-06 which addresses whining differentials.
Ford has a parts kit available which includes pinion and ring gears, pinion bearings, carrier bearings, and some seals.
This is not a recall, so I think standard warranty rules apply. If you are in warranty, Ford pays. If you are out of warranty, its your dime.
So visit a dealer near you and get your own personal copy. This may help those of you with problems get the full rebuild!
The O2 sensors are available just about anywhere as they are a common replacement part.
We'll pick up when you are ready.
:surprise:
Have not read the whole thing. Maybe someone has access and can post it.
However, NAPA is a possibility. They have surprised me a couple of times with stuff I figured was Ford only. Might be worth a phone call.
Yours sounds like a small leak. You might think about retorqing your head bolts up to max torque specifications. Some people try a stop leak product in the radiator.
often, the leak means new head gaskets. Worst case would be a cracked head, but that is not common.