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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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Comments

  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    "why don't they sell cars like these back in the States?"

    Answer: Lawyers, DOT, Unions....
    :::::
    Nonetheless, they are comfy, handle well, customer pleasing.

    All good points, nvbanker (as usual). However, I wasn't analyzing that deeply when I sat in them, just thinking the interior materials and dash layout seemed better.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Yeah, actually I regretted that post as a bit reactionary unnecessarily. I'm just tired I guess, of the endless parade of "Aussie envy" we get in these forums, as if their cars are perfect, and ours are all junk. But I'm back on my meds now, I'll be fine.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    I driven GTO at GM event and I had strange feeling that car is from early 90s, it did not feel modern at all. There was something crude and old-style in interior too, but most irritating was lack of dead pedal so my right foot was suspended on the air. From point of view of external design it is absolutely forgettable.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    scootertrash: This ain't haiku.

    Ford stares at abyss
    Waiting for Alan's magic
    To stop disaster.
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    Ok jae5,
    Of course we don't have the best petrol in the world.
    But our base fuel has a higher octane rating than yours.
    Therefore, the ecu has to be re-calibrated to run on your stuff.
    Yes,I watch the vids and reviews here and elsewhere,I can't prove that to you, but you can't prove that I don't :-)
    GTO was based on the cars you said you have been wanting for years,Comm and ute. Make up your mind about the bland part,the only differance between the sedan,coupe and ute is from the front doors to the back.
    I see VE's on the road everyday, nothing bland about these,though I can't understand why Pontiac change the front so much on the GTO and G8. Sort of makes the cars look blander,if there is such a word lol.
    Being a Ford thread, I'll just add this. Ford here is going slowly out of the large car market as they have no export plans for the Falcon. Shame really as that 4.0 litre straight six,"Barra" engine with the turbo is pretty damm good. It has more punch than the 5.4 litre v8 that they bring out from you guys to here for the GT Falcon.
    Did you check out the 427 Monaro? Nice :-)
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    That is very funny stuff grbeck.
    The only reason I space my writing out is to make it easier to read. Sorry if that's annoying to you scootertrash.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Of course we don't have the best petrol in the world. But our base fuel has a higher octane rating than yours.


    Different rating systems.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.php?file=car.php&carnum=1488
    Monaro 427 with 560bhp.
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    Point taken Bumpy ,(stop following me around,:-))
    The 6 litre V8's here are tuned to run on our 98 rateing.
    They change them down to run on your 87.
    I guess they think you only want to buy the cheaper stuff at the pump?
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    The problems with the GTO were:

    1. It was expensive for a Pontiac. Over the years, the Pontiac nameplate has lost much of its clout. If anything, given the heavy application of plastic cladding to various Pontiacs in the 1990s, and the Aztek, the Pontiac nameplate has a negative image for many potential buyers. People just didn't want to pay that much for a Pontiac. Given the choice between paying for Pontiac and a BMW or Acura, most younger Americans would opt for the BMW or Acura on image alone.

    2. Americans - especially GTO fans - already had in mind what a GTO should "look like." They were hoping for something more "retro" in style (think 2005 Mustang). When the Holden-based GTO appeared, it just didn't look like a GTO to many people.

    3. The dealers believed the hype and initially held out for too much money.

    4. GM has too many brands and too many models, and doesn't have enough money to effectively market all of its offerings.

    One hopes that the upcoming, Holden-based Pontiac G8 fares better in the marketplace.
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    I was thinking that last night as well.re too many brands.
    All they are doing is cutting each others throat. Do you think it (Monaro) would have sold better if it was called a Chevy? Holdens are marketed elsewhere,(UNA)as Chevys and do very well. Holden's Statesman won Car of the Year in 2006 in the United Arab Emerites.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    It would have sold better as the "Pontiac Bonneville Coupe" alongside a renamed Commodore as the regular Bonneville, and if it had the HSV GTO nose instead of the one it did get. It also would have sold better if it had come in at the upper $20k target price rather than the low $30k price induced by currency fluctuations. It also would have sold better if it had been advertised more and allocated to Pontiac dealers in warmer climates instead of Pontiac dealers with high sales volume who were in snowy climates in winter.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    ...from Detroit News Online. It's a nice start and needs to be touted by Ford. Any bit of good news has got to help at this point.

    Ford: Quality Equal to Toyota
  • douglasrdouglasr Member Posts: 191
    Wixom will soon close, within the next few weeks, and 50 years of tradition will come slamming shut. Not to mention 40 years before that where Lincoln Motor Company occuppied its own factory on Livonia Avenue. Leaving the Lincoln brand a "foreign" manufacturer importing cars into the United States. Yes, the trucks are still made in America, but I don't contenance that a luxury motor car manufacturer should end up being exclusively a truck firm. Ford should not devolve itself into being the F-150-Mustang Motors.

    In the real world, Lincoln had much work to do to regain even a semblence of its former self. And it was only yesterday that it had surpassed Cadillac to represenet American Engineering might on the road.

    For 2006 sales in North American add up as follows:

    Brand/sales YTD 2006
    =====================
    Audi/90,116
    BMW/274,432
    Cadillac/227,014
    Ferrari/1,513
    Jaguar/20,683
    Lamborghini/876
    Lexus/322,434
    Lincoln/120,476
    Maerati/2,108
    Maybach/146
    Mercedes-Benz/247,934
    Porsche/34,227
    Rolls-Royce/388
    =======================
    Source: Automotive News

    In terms of car sales, Lincoln sold 81,206 cars, of which 39,295 were rear-wheel drive Town Cars. Lincoln is now down to just two models in terms of car sales, the remainder of the "line-up" are trucks and cross-overs. Bill Ford Jr. must be thrilled to death, but taking the breadth away from the thrill is that Cadillac gained the 30,000 sales Lincoln lost in 2006 versus 2005 primarily through CAR sales. At the end of the day Lincoln is now fifth in the market-place trucks and cars sales inclusive. Car wise, Lincoln is where it was three decades ago in terms of numbers sold.

    Lincoln is back where it was in 1947, when it was third in the market-place behind Packard and Cadillac; Lincoln sold 24,081 cars to Packard's 47,875, and Cadillac's 53,379 cars. Cadillac had surpassed Packard that year. Imported cars represented 0.001% of the U.S market. Max Hoffman was the only dealer "officially" importing foreign luxury makes as Rolls-Royce, Bentley, and Jaguar into America. Mercedes was still digging out from a pile of 8th Air Force Rubble, making pre-war 170V models. The Japanese were only assembling 'trucks' within the U.S. Occupation Authority, as was VW under Major Ivan Hirst at the direction of the R.E.M.E. and Britsh Occupation Authorities. The U.S. market is now three times the size it was in 1957 when Continental was still a separate division at Ford Motor and Mark II's were rolling onto the streets, and now imports comprise one third of the U.S market.

    The boldness of Ford Motor in the fifties seems long faded, not to mention the glory years of the 1960's. Even Robert Petersen managed to bring back some shine to The Blue Oval when the Taurus was a new car. That is what is missing, and likewise needed at Ford Motor today: guts to take the risks to make exciting and adventurous cars today, even if there is not a perfect marketing case for them. Ford often built cars because they had the know-how and the resources to do so, and not for any other reason.

    Mark Fields, in impugning his rank and file to parrot the firm in cheer-leader style outside of work, has also had to "cheer" the troops about "getting things done with a third less people" According to the Detroit News, engineers that often had four or five projects on line, now have bene gelded down to only one or two.

    But I would say, that the time is now for risk, no matter how many teams Ford is fielding. You can't regain leadership in the market-place, even BMW style, without excellence in product design and engineering. Consumers will not tolerate being raped in the wallet when the odometer turns 40 or 50,000 miles with extreme levels of break-downs. So Ford and Lincoln in particular has to define itself in bold terms that resonate with the buyers...and we have been waiting a long time for exciting cars. And also very much let down by such titalating prototypes as the Mark IX, and the Continental sedan and convertible only to have WCF JR. ax them and show the gentlemen who created them the corporate boot.

    At best Lincoln can survive. One hopes that in less than a dozen years, Lincoln can regain the public confidence to challenge Cadillac and Imperial, Mercedes and Lexus, BMW and Astons again. One of my die-hard Lincoln friends, when I asked him if he was still driving his 1978 Mark V, told me: "I'll drive this car till I die, before I surrender to driving a boring car..." That kind of loyalty is what Lincoln needs to rekindle with all its owners. No one wants to admit, much less have to explain away why, they drive a "has-been" car: one reason why Packard died so quickly when the 1957 Detroit based car was cancelled.

    ...luckily Lincoln responded by maintaining Town Car production, otherwise "Hencho in Mexico" would be all that is left of Lincoln automotive producdtion. And the Mark Z will not make a good Carrara-Pan-America Lincoln.

    Risk is now needed at Lincoln. Bold moves, sharp contrasts. Timeless styling that also adheres to a classic Lincoln look would not hurt either (within at least one model) But the next Lincoln has to be bullit-proof and twice as good as expectations to get people to switch back. Otherwise all we will have left are Buick (Chinese) Park Avenues, Cadillacs, and perhaps Imperial, remaining to represent America on the road at the top of the tier. Lincoln is going to have to build one great car at a time.

    DouglasR

    (Sources: Automotive News; Production Figure Book for U.S. Cars, Motorbooks International)
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    Thank you for your answer bumpy.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    What an excellent post, DR. I hesitate to follow it, but must do it now and get back to work.

    First, I saw only yesterday the spectacular Buick Park Avenue RWD luxury car which GM will sell ONLY in CHINA. WHAT is up with that? It's exactly the car Buick needs here. Shows that the bosses at GM are just as clueless as our fearless leaders at Ford, I guess.

    Second, having seen pix of the Imperial concept, IMHO it is a way overdone version of the 300 and may be a big flop if it hits the market looking like the concept. Just MHO.

    But back to Lincoln. I've had 3, now driving 2. All made in the USA. 2 of them (Mark VIII and Navigator) were major improvements over their Ford base, which were already class leading cars (TBird and Expedition). THe 3rd, my LS, shared much of it's platform with a Jaguar. Those days, except for the hideous re-interpretation of the Navigator, are apparently gone at Lincoln, perhaps forever.

    To restate some of your post, Lincoln now sells a big truck, a huge SUV and a mid size crossover, all made in the USA. That's actually a good start. But they lack anything of real substance in the car market. THe TC, which has a loyal following, we all know is based on a what, 30 year old platform? And the Z, as is the case with the X, is nothing but a tarted-up Mazda. And made in Mexico to boot, where the X production will probably go as soon as they can figure out the logistics. Did I ever, EVER think Lincoln would be selling 2 vehicles which are made-up Mazdas? Did anyone reading this think that? And still have the chutzpah to call them luxury vehicles?

    And as far as we know, the future looks no brighter, except the next car is based on an arguably better foreign brand, the Volvo. Though the Volvo it is based on, the S80, has already been redesigned by Volvo and replaced with a much better automobile with several advanced luxury and safety items not likely to be seen on the Lincoln S.

    So, what Lincoln has become is a better Maxda, or a down-level Volvo. And I see nothing, absolutely NOTHING now or in the future which holds any interest for me. Yes, they've shown some beautiful concept cars which would have been extremely intersting to me - the Mark IX and the COntinental as you pointed out were exquisite and both were Lincolns in all the ways that mattered. But now they've chosen to try to look like last years Japanese car built on last year's Swedish car's chassis.

    At this point in history I am very very pessimistic that Lincoln or even Ford will survive.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Me too. Though I don't share your positive assessment of the truck end as "a good start." The Lincoln LT is an F150. Period. They put on some different trim pieces and have now modified the headlights a bit, but all parts from one could be screwed on the other. I like the new Nav grill, but hate that they are still using the 1998 body with different front and rear end styling. The Nav used to really turn heads. But it was high time for a whole new shape. Talk about stale. Maybe they are planning another Town Car type run?

    The MKX is WAY too close in looks to the Edge to be a real Lincoln.

    As for the cars, I don't care if they base them on Mazda architecture, Volvo architecture, the old LS, the Mustang, or something from Australia. After all, Mazda has experience in doing near luxury well, but few wanted to pay $30,000+ for a Mazda (after the Amanti division idea was nixed). But even so, the 1993 929 was a rear drive and very attractive near luxury car and the Millenia that followed had a better interior, exterior and engine than the Lexus ES with which it competed.

    My point is, Lincoln could have made an MKZ that LOOKED like a Lincoln, and that stood out like Lincolns used to, and I would have bought it. But instead it looks like a Fusion with heavier eyeliner and makeup.

    The forthcoming MKS has too much riding on it. A thorough TC re-skin could at least assist Lincoln in getting through the next 3 or 4 years. But apparently no one there can even do the easy things to save themselves.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Yep. My point on the good start was 3 vehicles made in USA.

    As for the S, some spy pix have been posted and while u cant tell much, the one that interested me is one where the interior is partially visible and it is nothing like the interior in what we've already seen. It looks bland, boring and derivative.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    You can tell that from seeing a few inches of the top part of the dash? Wow. You must be psychic.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Compared to the concept dash, this one is exactly that. Looks like the usual little hump over a cople of instruments, typical vents and locs, same old satin-nickle center stack. I know I'm reading a lot into it, but what I see is plain jane stuff, unlike the concepts' interior which was quite inspired in some ways.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    I assume cost cutting. I heard the same happened with MKZ - beancounter insisted on cheap looking center stack in exchange for real wood.
  • douglasrdouglasr Member Posts: 191
    ...'We made a big bet in 1997, and its paid off for us very well.." Rick Wagoner stated today with respect to GM's investment in China and expansion of Cadillac into the mainland. "I discovered too late I had chosen the wrong person...I corrected that mistake with the greatest difficulty in November..." VWAG CEO Dr. Ferdinand Piech responded with respect to former Management Board CEO Bernd Pischetsreider---fired because he had put options on the table of selling off Bentley and Lamborghini and ostensibly return VW to its plebian roots.

    The two examples are important because on the one hand Lincoln's nearest competitor bet heavily that luxury cars were worth putting chips on the table to back, whether in America or overseas. The other German example exemplar of a man with a vision: Dr. Piech clearly wants to make VWAG-Porsche the world's Number Three Auto firm. And he wants to do it within the next five years. And he is succeeding in part by moving products upscale, investing heavily in capital expenditures, acquiring and revitalising brands that help show-case VWAG's abilities: The Bentley success a text-book example of how to resuscitate or reposition a brand.

    These are the kinds of things that need to happen with respect to Lincoln, especially if they are to regain lost ground. Looking at the Volvo-based Mark S prototype photos means that Lincoln will, at best, have a car appealing to the next tier up from Mark Z. Having seen the showcar, and looking at the photos, it seems much has been lost in the translation to production; but reservations must wait until January 2008. Yet where is the car to challenge even what Cadillac is making now? There is nothing to challenge the V series Cadillac's, much less the convertible that Cadillac builds at the Corvette plant in Bowling Green. And that is only one issue: there is the impending arrival of the Ocean Drive Mercedes S600 four-door cabroilet, reviving the tradition of the 300d. Clearly, an in-your-face challenge to Lincoln.

    A brief look at the sales numbers over the last five years tells the story in North America.

    Brand/2006/2005/2004/2003/2002
    ==============================
    Aston/443/492/600/519/487
    Audi/90,116/83,066/77,917/86,421/85,726
    Bentley/3,856/3,624/2,394/437/546*
    BMW/724,432/266,300/260,679/240,859/232,032
    Cadillac/227,014/235,002/234.217/216,090/199,748
    Ferrari/1,513/1,430/1,346/1,312/1,204
    Jaguar/20,683/30,424/45,875/54,655/61,024
    Lamborghini/876/640/653/425/133
    Lexus/322,434/302,895/287,925/259,755/234,109
    Lincoln/120,476/123,207/139,016/158,939/150,057
    Maserati/2,108/2,018/1,043/917/853
    Mercedes/247.934/224,269/221,366/218,151/213,225
    Maybach/146/152/244/166/--
    Porsche/34,227/31,933/31,473/28,417/21,318
    Rolls-Royce/388/382/420/166/546*
    VWAG/235,140/224,195/256,111/302/686/338,125
    ==============================================
    Source: Automotive News 2007 Market Data Book
    *combined R-R & Bentley production at Crewe

    Lincoln lost 20% of its volume in the last five years. All of Lincoln's competitors gained market share by the same amount that Lincoln has lost. Cadillac gained almost exactly the same number of sales. Even Mercedes-Benz increased its volume by a similar percentage, with BMW and Lexus outpacing them both. In short the luxury market gained 209,000 plus sales in the last five years while Lincoln has been in contraction. Jaguar too looks like the wet kitty of the market: losing 40,000 sales---precisely what BMW gained.

    So these are the cold hard facts that what is left of "team Lincoln" must face. Perhaps for them the fear of failing so great now, amidst corporate muddle with respect to Lincoln, that even a bland car looks like a bold attempt. If one wants to see whether the Mark S will succeed, just look at the new BMW C show car debuting in Shanghai---the haptic approach of styling reaching what must be an apogee for the approach. The boldness of that move is what Lincoln is up against. Not to mention the forward march of Chinese manufacturers who are learning very fast.

    The ugliness of the numbers underscores that a degree of risk is necessary for Lincoln to move forward. The "wow" factory must get people into the show-rooms, and then the first impressions of the interior, the fit of the pieces, and sensual perception and tone of the controls, intuitive ease for their use must become immediatley apparent. At best, Lincoln has minutes to impress upon a perspective buyer the temptation to buy. So Lincoln must necessarily be twice or three times as good as the next car that someone chooses to examine. Because even Lexus is now moving to the top tier with their latest $106,000 460Hybrid L

    Ford Motor, believe it or not, is the leading corporation for R&D investment in America. But a fair percentage of those numbers ($8Bn in 2006) not to mention money ear-marked for product development (part of their $26Bn fund) must go to Lincoln now.

    It's not just a matter of having a brand label to compete, it is a matter of engineering prowess, design and build finess to represent the company with an American label. Jaguar, for however much it has become a Ford product, is not an American car. Unless those on the 14th Floor of the Glass House wants to cede the market to Buick, Cadillac, and a renascent Imperial, and surrender the American driver permanently to Mercedes, BMW, Audi and Lexus...with a few buying Jaguar, then Lincoln must no longer be allowed to languish in the basement of the engineering test facilities, and design studios.

    ...a Lincoln "skunk works" wouldn't hurt, much like the team that developed the Rolls-Royce Phantom, and the Bentley Boys testing in the deserts of Dubai and South Africa....

    The time is now...for its a fine balance between blandness and greatness...it's worth the "bet" Because, "Frankly my dear..." there isn't much left to lose for Lincoln: the designers and engineers should take MR. Wagoner's bet, and challenge Mr. Peich too.

    DouglasR

    Sources; WSJ, FT; Automotive News
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    Obviously we can't see the details, but look at the thick greenhouse, stubby trunk and tiny wheelwells that look like they were designed for 14 inch tires.
    http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enthusiasts/Spy_Shots_and_Future_Cars/2009_Linco- ln_MKS_Spied.S178.A12231.html

    MKS Spy Photos

    Looks like the new Oldsmobiles are in early this year
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Guess I'm the ultimate pessimist, since I'm now driving a Cadillac and Lexus, but I still feel that what I SEE going on at Ford and Lincoln are the stirrings of change and hope in a rather bold way. May be too little too late, but let's hope not. I hope it will be enough in time, to save an American Dynasty from ruin. Won't be one darn bit good for this country either, if Ford goes down, or the UAW. Everybody in the world should be pulling for Ford to make it like they were for Chrysler in the 70's. We NEED Ford to be around. They'll never be what they once were, or as big as they once were, but we need them.

    Mullaly seems to know what is needed, and is peddling as fast as he can to get to that goal. Bill seems to fallen back into the coma he was in prior to his ascension to the throne several years ago when the systematic dismantling of the company ended under the Nasser reign of terror, and the accidental and unplanned dismantling of the company began under Bill.

    I am sincerely hoping that Lincoln can build a "gotta have it" car like they did in 88 with the Continental, the Mark VII, the 90 Town Car, the 99 Navigator, the 00 LS and again with the 03 Navigator. If they can, I'd be proud to drive one again. Personally, I liked them quite a bit.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    NV, I just can't wait until I get to see a Lincoln MKS. Boy if they give me a sign and drive deal like they are offering on the MKZ (obviously a little more) it might be to good of a lease deal to pass up. I as you know was a huge supporter of the Lincoln MKS. I still feel if they Twin-Turbo the V6 and make it a very powerful luxury sedan that won't break the bank, they will have plenty of buyers. I think a Twin-Turbo engine will help real world fuel economy and if they advertise it's a Twin-Turbo engine that can have a positive affect of not needing a V8 because their is plenty of muscle under the hood. ;) I personally just wished they would of left the suede leather intact as it was a trademark of the concept. If it was a option, I'd plunk down the extra change for it as it added character to Lincoln, something Ford, needs to build into every Lincoln. I was glad to see some spy photo's of this car from edmunds. If the MKZ, wasn't made in Mexico, I'd perhaps be driving one right now. ;) Oh well the MKS, still is on my radar. I just hope Lincoln, gives it the gadgets I want.

    Lincoln, like all luxury brands will have very stiff competition from Hyundai. If they price their cars right and are able to keep the quality up and the features plentiful they will still rebound and I feel they will do very well. I hope they keep that Anthracite Metallic blue like paint available for production Lincolns. :shades: I agree with you we should pull for Ford. I am rooting for them as they are my second favorite company and the MKS, is another car I often forget about as a future possibility for me.

    Lets go Lincoln, we want special cars like you once made, today !!!! :)

    Rocky
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Got the latest issue of Motor Trend. Pretty much read the thing all the way thru. Ford Motor company is mentioned twice. Once in the almost ubiquitous article about yet another special Mustang - this time the Shelby GT500KR. It's a darn good thing Ford still makes the Mustang cause otherwise they're totally invisible.
    There was a test of 3 new crossovers. Notable the Edge and MKX were not included. The test pitted the Acadia vs the 'new' MDX and the Mazda CX-9, which was the winner.
    Oh, what was the 2nd mention of a Ford product? It was in an editorial by Angus Mackenzie titled "Headline Maker - The Car Cadillac Must Build" And here's the quote: "Some observers wonder whether GMs' luxury brand - indeed given the sorry state of Lincoln - America's ONLY luxury brand can ..."
    Well said, Mr Mackenzie.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Obviously they were testing crossovers with 3 row seating.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Yup and the NEW MDX really is new. It doesn't share its platform with the Oddsey and Ridgeline anymore.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,294
    i guess mr. mackensie never took even marketing 101.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • douglasrdouglasr Member Posts: 191
    May 31 2007, after fifty years of faithful service to Lincoln Division and Ford, the last Lincoln will roll off the line....

    ...making Lincoln a "foreign" built label in terms of cars...from Canada, and Mexico.

    ...ARM had to quash importing a German Ford to place a Lincoln label on it, as the Euro stands at $1.35 exchange rate.

    ...two years ago a revamped Town Car was parked in Bill Ford's driveway, according to a source of mine, and turned down the chance to build it.

    ...Chrysler LLC is proceeding with Imperial for Brampton, Ontario, and an SRT8 Ghia Imperial can't be far in the offing---if Mr. Snow and MR. Feinberg at Cerberus keep the cash flowing into the new firm. Within 18 month Town Car buyers can choose between Canadien built Town Cars, and Imperial...plus new Cadillacs, etc. But will the Canadien TC be any better??? Ahe?

    ...will there ever be a new Lincoln plant---probably never OR is Lincoln's day done at the hands of Mr. Fields, and Bill Ford Jr.???? Badge engineered into the future.

    DouglasR

    (Sources: Detroit News, Automotive News)
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    We are seeing the end of an era - several of them in fact.

    Yesterday in autoextremist there was a brief on the new "Brilliance China Automotive" company. Described as the first serious Chinese auto exporter, they are due to make a splash in the American market soon. Apparently they have a full line of competitive vehicles and have the resources of the Red Chinese government behind them.

    Soon buying a car made in America will be as difficult as buying a power tool or appliance made here. Very sad but probably true. "We have met the enemy and they is us."
  • douglasrdouglasr Member Posts: 191
    ...May 31 the last Lincoln rolls off the line at Wixom, ending fifty years of Lincoln Motor tradition. Where will that car go? I'd love to buy it.

    ...Three weeks ago 79 test bodies were built at the Chicago plant for the Mark S. Production begins ten months from now in March 2008. In the meantime, during the summer production materials from Wixom get trucked across the border to Canada, and Town Car production begins, making Lincoln a three nation marque.

    ...Peter Horbury, the father of the Mark S, has made it very clear, that along with the Mark R, that Lincoln is going after new levels of business. And that upgrades on those two platforms are in store. Long term goals are being placed on the S, even though based on a Volvo chassis.

    ...By the 2009 model year Lincoln will have to compete not only against entrenched foreign label competition, but the new Cadillac Zeta based chassis, and also the new R based Imperial---which will share rear drive axles with Mercedes-Benz being made at the new plant that just came on line.

    ...so Horbury, ex Volvo stylist, looking to make a "timeless" design not of fad or fashion, has the "watch" at Lincoln: HE is the man who is the guiding force at the moment. ARM has his hands full, but is trying to get product for Lincoln...so is within hailing distance of the tiller.

    ...between May 31 and March 15, 2008 no Lincoln automobiles will be made in America---only trucks/cross-overs/suv type vehicles. Little chance that Lincoln will ever have its own deidcated plant, name emblazoned on the top of the building as Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, (and even Astons) etc. do for their brands. Ford executives think people are no longer as "brand conscious" as before, with shifting loyalties, so see no need to memorialize any one plant with any one brand. Realities of third shift production making that the only way that Lincoln can survive.

    ...Akin to the days when East Grand Boulevard closed in favor of Conner Avenue at Packard, only to have that plant come crashing to a halt when Packard sales nosedived to 28,835 in 1956, ending Packard production in Detroit, July 27, 1956. Because S is coming to Chicago, and pre-production prototype bodies are being made there, means that when Wixom sadly (SADLY) closes, the great opportunity that plant meant for Lincoln will not be the end of the story... So Mr. Mulally will not look like Roy T. Hurley (late of Curtiss-Wright) who took over Studebaker-Packard from James J. Nance, and promptly killed Packard.

    ALL the chips are on the table for Lincoln in the S.

    It will be in production long before the R type. 50,000 people are going to have to really like it...in its first year. Lucky for S that the price of gas has shot up to international levels in America, and now they don't look so foolish (fuelish?) putting in a V6...they can always Twin-Charge it---providing something unique.

    Yes, my friends and I are gathering for a "Wake for Wixom", coralling our Wixom built Lincoln and Continentals together for a very fine round of stiff drinks. Toasting all the great cars, some of the great designs, and even the mistakes...too, as Lincoln Inspires the Loyalty of Those Who Know it Best....we will raise a toast to all those who toiled for half a century behind its walls to make the many motoring miles we have enjoyed a reality. We will be wondering if William C. Ford Jr. ever set foot in that plant...his father built something great under the Continental name...will he?

    The Day After Wixom closes, ghosts of Lincolns past will echo in the empty halls as the machinery is moved out, before the wrecking balls come in. Chicago is the best and brightest hope for the brand, third shift and all.

    The Royal College of Art graduate: Mr. Peter Horbury is the last man standing between Lincoln for the future, and the brand joining Packard, and Ford Motor conceding defeat against Imperial, Cadillac, Mercedes, et. al., and giving up the American Road that Henry M. Leland layed down more than 90 years ago.

    DouglasR
  • hardhawkhardhawk Member Posts: 702
    Hopefully the MKS will revive Lincoln and set it on a path for a return to significance. I have seen the Imperial show car as well as the MKS and MKR at the Chicago Auto Show. The Imperial did not impress me, and I grew up in an Imperial family in the 60's and early 70's. I wish the MKS was available now instead of a year from now, as I will be in the market late summer or early fall due to a lease ending. I have driven the MKZ and like it, but need the extra room the MKS will offer. The MKX has more room than the MKZ but still lacks some features a $40,000+ vehicle should have. I had not been aware that Ford was closing Wixom this month. That place has seen some incredible products roll off the line over the years. Its closure really is the passing of an era.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The MKX has more room than the MKZ but still lacks some features a $40,000+ vehicle should have.

    Yeah - the first one being a DESIGN! I mean, have you ever seen a plainer vehicle in your life? Makes the Taurus look exotic!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    LOL
  • hardhawkhardhawk Member Posts: 702
    The MKX sort of looks like a pregnant roller skate, but it is different than most CUV's out there.
  • douglasrdouglasr Member Posts: 191
    Peter Horbury, is now the "last man standing" at Lincoln Motor. ARM's attempts to bring a German built Lincoln to America crashed on exchange rate problems, and while he yet may approve new programs for Lincoln, they are eighteeen to thirty-six months or more away from production.

    May 31, 2007 when the last Lincoln rolls out of Wixom, the fate of Lincoln will rest in the hands of the Mark S. The Z is a good first step, but saving the brand will take more than that car to do it. Especially if the public is not to perceive Lincoln as anything but a 'badge-engineered' Ford. Badge-Engineered Packard's, built on Studebaker chassis, killed the brand in 1957-58, and the same fate could befall Lincoln automobile sales depending on the product and public perception.

    Why Mr. Horbury has by default, become "the last man standing" between Lincoln and the end of the road for the brand. If Mark S fails, it will take more than the Mark R and truck/suv sales to save Lincoln. His mantra: "The fine line is between something that is astoundingly new and intense and something that can keep going long enough to make a business case. The Swedish rules of design call for keeping it clean and simple...if you keep it simple it doesn't get dated...it's balancing all that I feel we have to do..."

    Thus the production version of the DE3 based Volvo/Lincoln(Jaguar?) platform will determine if a new era successfully dawns for Lincoln. 90 years of tradition will end when Wixom closes, with Lincoln having essentially a dedicated facility to manufacfature its products...it's fate now dependent on third shift manufacturing, or lone shunt lines within a Ford plant, as Chicago. People argue that consumers care not about such issues, whether or not their luxury car is made within an exclusive facility. With standard fare that may well be true, but luxury cars take on a different cast...so the product has to be twice as good to overcome any indifference in that regard.

    Mr. Horbury does not have the luxury that Eugene Gregorie, working isolated on designs within the pervue of one man as Edsel Ford, had to create a 'Continental' "When I tell people that I designed the Continental in thirty-five minutes or so, that is the truth..." Gregorie later recalled. Nor that striking moment of inspiration that the designer of the Silver Cloud, John Blatchley had when asked to redo a proposal for the new Rolls-Royce: "I was asked to do a sketch of something more traditional, more in keeping with the Rolls image, which I did in ten minutes. It was taken into a board meeting and they decided to make it there and then." Blatchley recalled about the creation of one of the most famous Rolls-Royce ever. So Horbury's S production version must arrive with the same verve that Gregorie and Blatchley's creations had to keep Lincoln alive...with an enduring design that stands the test of time.

    Is the "S" such a car??? I've seen the show-stand car, and I have my doubts. Production cars, however, often are vastly improved and different, so Mr. Horbury has his work cut out for him---to prove his case, his design thesis, and impress the skeptical buying public. While Mr. Leland might be spinning over in his grave as the last American built Lincoln rolls off the line...the Royal College of Art School graduate, Mr. Horbury, must set the standard---and out-do an apprentice from Gurney Nutting John Blatchley, and an impressionable young designer Eugene Turene Gregorie who began his career at Elco Boat Works---and later earning $300 a month at Ford!

    Long before ARM sees anything for Lincoln, it is Horbury (and his team) who has to create it...so he remains as he has become: The Last Man Standing at Lincoln.

    DouglasR

    (sources: 'Edsel Ford and Eugene Gregorie', Henry Dominguez, SAE International; 'The Magic of the Name',. Peter Pugh, ICon books, 2005; 'Packard' Beverly Rae Kimes, Motorbooks International; The Car Connection, interview with Peter Horbury by Paul Eisenstein)
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Does Cadillac have a dedicated manufacturing center that makes all of their models? :confuse:
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Sorta. Lansing Grand River builds the core Cadillac vehicles (CTS, STS, SRX), while the platform filler is farmed out to Hamtramck (DTS), Bowling Green (XLR), and Arlington (Escalades)
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    I am pretty sure the Escalades and/or the Caddy pickup - what's the name of that thing - are made in Mexico.
  • bremertongbremertong Member Posts: 436
    I have owned three Cadillacs, 1998, 2004, recently bought new Cadillac DTS. Last year I bought a Town Car Signature Limited with 16,000 miles on it and 14 months old. In my opinion the 2005 Lincoln overall is the best car I have ever owned. True the 2004 and 2006 Cadillacs feature Onstar, have a little more power and more modern high tech. The Cadillacs are to noisy for a car in this class, are not as easy to control in turns because of front wheel drive. The Town Car which is 400 pounds heavier than the DTS gets better fuel economy and is a much more quiet car. I also think the Town Car has a ride that is more appealing to me. The shifter on the Deville is almost worthless in downshifts in that it is stiff and difficult to move the shifter whereas the Town Car has the button push shift in to third gear which is one of my favorite features. The transmission in the Town Car has real braking power on steep grades where as the Deville needs to be put in to second gear to develop any real braking power and it's not as good as Town Car is in Third.
    While the appearance of my New DTS has some cutting edge styling I like the appearance of the Town Car better. In my opinion the DTS paint is superior to Town Car and the door insulation in the Cadillacs is better than Town Car. Regarding power and the engine, the DTS does have excellent power and acceleration, however the Towncar has more than enough power to get you up to speed on freeway ramps and two lane passing. One weak feature on The town Car transmission is that there is a to long a hesitation to downshift when accelerator is pushed hard in the Town Car,
    this is helped a little by using the button to put in to third gear, In summary BOTH great cars and great values, If I were forced to choose it would be difficult but as of now I would for my preferences choose Town Car by a very small margin for the overall package of price, and value. I think Ford has a winner in Town Car but like any thing else in life there is always room for improvement.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Amazing. Just goes to show that there are always different strokes for different folks. Neither the DTS nor Town Car would be seen by most people as cutting edge, but there is still a market for both of them. The Lincoln, with its chassis dating back to the dark ages, its solid rear axle, low hp rating, 4 speed transmission, old plasticky interior, and styling and proportions from many years ago, has long since seen its better days. However, cars more or less have been quite good now for a decade or more. The very dismal resale value at least means that you can buy a little used comfortable and quiet car for a bit more than the price of a subcompact.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I am pretty sure the Escalades and/or the Caddy pickup - what's the name of that thing - are made in Mexico.

    My 2003 Escalade EXT was indeed, hecho en Mexico..... A fact that astonished me! Something rarely mentioned around here. Ford gets trashed for building their Focus and Fusion down there though.
  • bremertongbremertong Member Posts: 436
    I don't know very much about the technical aspects of these cars. I once joked about the low horsepower rating in the Towncar but have been quite satisfied with the performance provided.
    Speed limits here are mostly 55 MPH with just a few roads at 60 MPH. Towncar gets up to speed very quickly and easily.
    I noticed that you in the past owned a Corvette and wondered where you would have the opportunity to use all that power other than on a race track. I tend to like quick takeoffs and would want a race track available to me if I had the power rating of a Corvette or Audi for that matter.
  • bremertongbremertong Member Posts: 436
    A few after thoughts. I have had an ownership interest in The Daimler Benz (currently Daimler Chrysler) and Audi since December of 1987. As you probably know our cars are priced for the most part much higher than Lincoln or Cadillac, and probably have better overall build quality than either of the American brands.
    Also of casual interest is the fact that a businessman by the name of Warren Buffett with a networth (according to Forbes Magazine) that is second highest in the U.S.A. currently owns a Cadillac DTS and his previous car was a Towncar. I only stumbled across this information after buying my present cars. My logic in my choices is that I spend one to two hours a day in a car and the difference is not worth the difference in price. You are quite correct in stating different strokes for different folks. I do hope Americans will continue to buy Mercedes and Audi, it puts money in my pocket!
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    if Lincoln is actually more upscale brand than VW. I have doubts about that. VW Passat is more upscale car than Fusion/MKZ and so on. It will be stupid move by ARM to bring here European Ford as a Lincoln. European Ford is still a Ford regardless what badge you slap on it. It does not even have cachet of VW, let alone of Audi. True it is a good car but for budget minded buyer. Ford destroyed European Ford's value by not moving it up and then of Jaguar too by rebadging Mondeo as X-type.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I disagree that VW is of higher anything than Ford. The Passat has a cult following (for no explainable reason) as does the JEtta. But on a side to side, the Fusion is better IMO than the Passat.
  • bremertongbremertong Member Posts: 436
    VALUE! I love the appearance of both cars and for the price
    I can't think of a better value in a luxury car. Having owned three Cadillacs and one Town Car I have had few problems and have found the cars to be comfortable and fine performers on the road. They both handle surprisingly well for their weight and size. Town Car did some small but significan changes to the suspension system for cars made in 2003 and after. I read the comments right here at Edmunds.
    These cars are far from perfect but very fine cars, always room for improvement and I think both companies are aware of this.
  • douglasrdouglasr Member Posts: 191
    12:55 p.m. May 31, 2007, fifty years and 46 days after Wixom opened in 1957 The Last Lincoln rolled off the assembly line.

    No more Lincolns will be made in America until the Mark S production line gets going in 2008. It is now a "foreign" automobile made in Canada and Mexico. Unless, of course, you buy a truck.

    The last of the 1108 employees put together the last Town Car, going to a buyer in Gaithersburg, Maryland.

    Only four years ago Wixom received the Bronze Medal for Production Excellence from J.D .Power and Associates. The factory had been enlarged no less than four times during its existence to accomodate increasing demand for Lincoln. Though it was built to accomodate Lincoln and T-Bird for 1958, with production beginning August 1, 1957, Wixom became essentially a Lincoln plant after 1976 when T-Bird production was shifted out of Wixom. 6,648,806 cars were built there over fifty years, the majority of which were Lincoln automobiles. It's peak production being the 1988 model year with 280,659 cars being built that year. And at its height no more than 5,468 employees worked within its walls building Mark IV's, Lincoln-Continentals, and Lincoln Town Cars.

    "They produced a quality vehicle up to the last one they built..." Plant Manager Philip Caliton commented in an official press release from Ford Motor.

    An era has come to an end. Future Lincoln automobiles will serve the platform they are built upon, irrespective of where they will be built, whether it be Mexico, Canada, Australia, or other far flung reaches of the remaining Ford Motor Empire. While that has been true to one degree or another over many decades at Ford Motor, Wixom did serve as a dedicated plant to one brand. Now that concept will be gone. Like a shift making Edsels, Mercury's or Fords, plants in the future as Chicago, will make Mercury's Lincoln's and Ford's, and perhaps even Jaguars and Volvo's. Talk of craftsmanship, hand-crafting, pride of workmanship and place will be gone. In its stead comes only excellence of production methods and design, engineering and testing. The old craft or guild system of quality long replaced by the accuracy of lasers and computer software. That is part and parcel of the ghosts that now occupy Wixom.

    Like the closing of many a great American Automotive Plant, like Packard at East Grand Boulevard and Conner Avenue, or Duesenberg, Marmon and Pierce-Arrow, Lincoln---that once set a standard equal to Rolls-Royce in 1921 when Rolls-Royce was built in Springfield, Mass.---will now see the cast of the die changed forever. The chance of bespoke, custom, or one-off Lincoln or Continental automobiles is now almost certainly gone. Even with a luxury market expanding by 14% within the last two years, the move out of Wixom signals and end for Lincoln.

    Survival of the brand not limited to automobiles, but certainly dependent upon them. So now the future rear wheel drive platforms, as the Interceptor/Galaxie, like Zeta at GM, are the sole remaining hope for Lincoln...other than a bevy of median priced AWD alternatives based off lower priced underpinnings.

    It is not unlike the Continental derived from the Zephyr, in order to save Lincoln for the higher end market against Cadillac and Packard, Imperial and foreign competition. But now the danger lies that the public will not perceive any cache for Lincoln: other than an enhanced Ford design. Just as Packard died upon the cusp of Roy Hurley's Curtiss Wright management contract at Studebaker-Packard, let us hope that Mr. Mulally learns from his fellow "Air-Man", and not make the same mistake.

    Mr. Horbury and MR, Mulally are the Last Men Standing between Lincoln and its epitaph.

    Thus my friends and I, having driven Wixom-built Lincolns for decades, raised many a toast...the wines were various, the quantities unquenchable, to all those who toiled between its walls to make the Lincolns that we became so fond of driving.

    ...like the song: "I've gotta little story I'd like you to know, hope you don't mind my bending your ear...

    ...cause it's one for "my baby", and another one for the road...that long hard road..."

    ...and hopefully there will still be "A Lincoln Road", when those at Ford Motor decide, when and if, they ever pick up the chalice again.

    DouglasR

    sources: Ford Motor Company, Reuters,
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    It's hard following DouglasR with a post, but in case someone missed it, here's a bit of good news for Ford and company.

    Ford Vehicles Snare the Most Quality Awards in JD Power Annual Survey - Detroit News
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