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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?



  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,020
    Are you putting Ford in the same class as VW or Toyota?

    Are you trying to make a point or just start a pointless argument to bash Ford?

    these will be available in Ford's economy cars

    No they won't. See question above.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    Do you have an extra 'e' on your keyboard?
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 815
    The Cadillac CTS has been getting good reviews and there was a lot of activity around them at the auto show I recently attended. I am going to test drive one when I get a chance.

    I went to Cadillac's website to review the standard and optional features and to price one out the way I would want it. The end result was to get a CTS with the level of features I want would pushes the price to or above MKS levels. The MKS even has some things missing on the Caddy. Some would say the CTS is worth more but it depends on individual priorities. The CTS will be quicker and handle better but it is a much smaller car than an MKS. For all of the kudos I have heard about the CTS interior, I still don't like a Nav screen that rises out of the dash like a frog's eye.

    The point is that the MKS is pretty well equipped for the price. Further, the option packages and pricing are much more logical than on some competiors. Compared with other sedans in its class, the MKS might look like a pretty good value to buyers.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    bruce: Interesting you posted this, cause I came in here to post this basically to you. Everytime I hear/see the TV ads for the CTS whizzing around over hill and dale and thru tunnels with the voice over "When u turn your car on, does it return the favor?" (one of the best tag lines ever IMHO) I think of the mks. And now, the new almost as good Jag ads for the XF have me thinking of the mks and of course what couldda been with the LS. These are two SWEET automobiles. I stopped to just look at an XF last weekend. The interior in that car is one of the best ever. And the CTS isn't far behind, if behind at all.
    My point is that I also think of you (cue music..) in the sense that you're waiting patiently here for the Lincoln Godot (mks) and hoping it will measure up or at least hint at competing with the CTS os STS or Jag (OK, not the Jag). And then you sat in one and were disappointed with the interior (I dont blame you at all for that) and yet ... you still wait ... for Godot... In this version of the play, Godot is coming, but when it gets here it is bound to disappoint further. (IMHO) The interior is and will remain inferior to the CTS and remain not up to prime time luxo-vehicle standards. If u wanna know (basically) how it will drive, take a spin in an '07 or 08 Taurus. Or maybe that 07 Accord my wife's been driving (blech).
    I was going to suggest that you at least take the CTS for a spin between now and when the first mks arrives locally. I'm glad to see you're going to do that. (As for the Nav rising out of the dash, maybe that's part of what that gal in the ad was referring to?) But seriously, it does end up in precisely the right position to make it easy to refer to while not taking your eyes off the road.
    And I will close by suggesting you also try out the new XF while you're doing your test drives. For a few dollars more, that Jag is one nice place to spend one;s time on the road.
    Good luck and I do hope you end up with a car at least as good as your LS :)
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 815
    Thanks, jeyhoe. I agree with everything you said. Actually, my wife has a 2008 Taurus so I already have a pretty good idea of how the MKS will drive.

    The XF is awesome. If Ford was keeping Jag, I would have already ordered one. The stupid, hard-headed, bleed-Ford-blue loyality of mine will not let up! I know I need a shrink. I have waited so d*mn long for a great $45-50,000 car from Ford Motor Company and have nothing but aggravation to show for it. Just when it seems there is light at the end of the tunnel, Ford turns out the light and says, "just wait a couple more years....."

    Speaking of ads, I love the "hold on tight to your dreams" song on the Honda ads. Why the hell can't Ford turn out a decent ad campaign that catches the eye and ear? What has that new marketing guru been doing?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,020
    What has that new marketing guru been doing?

    A lot. They're displaying a Taurus at the NY auto show that's been crashed into an offset barrier at 35 mph. You can get in it and see how well the interior and the rest of the vehicle held up to that crash (very well - cabin is almost pristine from what I could tell). This has Farley written all over it. I can't imagine Ford doing something like this pre-Farley.

    And now they've launched a new ad campaign titled "Ford - Drive One". I guess it's a variation on the old "Have you driven a Ford lately?" slogan. I don't think Farley has had time to tackle Lincoln yet, so for now I guess it's still "Reach Higher".

    The biggest impact that Farley has had is that he's getting the dealers involved in the ad campaign which never happened. He's also giving more money to the dealers to use in more creative ways rather than putting it all into national ads or cash on the hood. This is what Toyota has always done. It's already resulted in "Free Sync" offers on Ford vehicles offered by the local dealer associations. Dealer incentives including free equipment, subsidized leases, etc. is a much better way to go than just dumping cash on the hood - less impact on resale values (along with matching production to demand).
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    bruce: I hear negotiations between Ford and Tata are still not finalized.... Plus the XF is a Ford design. AND it's the LS successor, (+ $10,000). Were you to get a mks and put it in your garage next to your wife's mks -oops- I mean Taurus, then I think I WOULD recommend a shrink. ;) C'mon man, you don't need ANOTHER D3 FWD do you? Send Ford a message!

    Me - I'm thinking lately that in today's world of automotive complexity and the abject refusal of most (all?) car companies to really stand behind their vehicles when design problems (Aviator tailgate, LS sway bar bushings etc - and only using Ford cause that's the example I'm most familiar with) cause no end of monetary pain and abuse to the buyer, ... I'm thinking of leasing my next car. That way, the monthly cost is lower AND, i don't care what unfixable problems come up cause I don't have to worry about it. Just drive it back and go lease something else.

    Yeah, I like that Honda ad too. I'll tell ya though, I've often heard the term "appliance" applied to cars and never really knew exactly what was meant by that until I drove this Accord. A nice car, a nice environment to sit in. Turn it on and it stops and goes. But the experience is anything but engaging. Disappointment doesn't begin to cover it.

    Just got the call that our LS is ready to be picked up after getting the rear bumper replaced and painted. Not a minute too soon. My wife's been suffering from DAS too long. (Driving Accord Syndrome.)
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,020
    I do like the new CTS much better than the original and the XF is stunning, but both are smaller and more expensive than the MKS. It all depends on what you want out of a vehicle. My V8 LS was a dream on road trips and curvy backroads but I found myself stuck in commuter traffic 95% of the time. My Fusion has good handling and is actually more comfortable as a daily commuter (easier to get in and out of, more back seat room, etc.) and gets 3-4 mpg better with almost the same power and good (but not great) handling.

    I'll have to wait and see the final MKS production interior before passing judgement. I think the center stack would look much better with real wood (I see an option for wood trim in the order guide but don't know what it looks like yet).
  • cowbellcowbell Posts: 125
    Two weeks ago Autoline did an episode on automobile advertising and they specifically talked about that Accord add where the car is driving down the road displaying with the "movies" playing in the background.

    They pretty much slammed the ad, and here was what I remember their reasoning being: You pay more attention to the images behind the car than the car itself, and the add tells you nothing about the car. Why is this car special? Why is it better than its competitors? What has Kevin Spacey done good since American Beauty? And you forget what the car looks like 15 seconds after the add is done if you even saw it to begin with.

    Of course Lincoln commercials have been pretty crap-tacular themselves lately. Especially the surfboarding hot-mom one. What was that? How does that help sell the car? At least the latest MKZ add I saw made some sense. It's the one where the MKZ is going up the ramp with the ball bearings. It touts a good feature on the car, but I'm not sure if the creepy voice of Willem Dafoe was the best way to go.
  • Do you know what Jeyhoe rhyms with? Pardon me since I ended a statement with a proposition.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    bruce: First, - I'm just back from the reading room where my local newsrag business section reports Ford and Tata may conclude their deal as early as next week. Better get that Ford-Jag soon b4 it goes Tata!
    Some other interesting tidbits in there - Ford will continue to supply engines for the Jag and LRs, Ford paid $2.7 billion for Jag and $2.9 billion for LR, the selling price for both is rumored to be around $1.8 billion. I'm glad my investments do a bit better than that! Lastly, the article quotes Ford as saying they're going to keep Volvo and move it up market making it "even more luxurious" Now, I never considered Volvo a luxury make. Safety was always Volvo's claim to fame IMHO. Jag was luxury. My point? Many of us LS owners complained about Lincoln playing ugly step-sister to Jaguar. HOW are future Lincoln owners going to feel about being the cheap version of a Volvo? I know how I feel about that...
    Allen: Yep, they're both about LS size rather than mks. For me at least the LS is a great size. Not too BIG and not too small. If the family was 5, however, the 5th person would be pretty uncomfortable on the hump in the back seat. Course, dont really know the mks would be any better for poor #5.
    As for you comparing the LS and Fusion and apparently preferring the Fusion, um, er, you really DO work for Ford dont you? :confuse: If u spend 95% of your time in commuter traffic, you should have a hybrid or maybe a Smart for Two. No ifs ands or buts. What the heck do u CARE how the car handles the other 5%? The rest of your reasoning is a little suspect too - like exactly HOW does easier entry and exit and a bigger back seat make commuting any more comfortable??? I haven't driven a Fusion so I'll sorta defer on the rest ie handling, ride etc. But to even mention the FWD appliance (sorry, making an assumption) in the same sentence as the LS is blasphemy! Oh and as for the crashed Taurus - well it IS a Volvo isn't it? THough I'll add that I dont think we'll ever see a Taurus that rolled over as an ad since Ford cheapened down Volvo's standards for roof structural integrity. A brilliant move considering all the $$$s they've lost to Explorer roll-over lawsuits.
    cowbell: first, 'add' is the opposite of 'subtract'. 'Ad' is the accepted abbreviation for 'advertisement'. Lesson over. Funny u mention Kevin Spacey and American Beauty in the same post as that mkx ad with the single Mom and kids at the beach. I consider that ad and that movie to have come from the same type of Hollywood/Madison Avenue media "mindset", and I dont think it's a healthy mindset. I dont wanna go further here.
    emrnibbles: I give up? Does it rhym with a basketball hoop? And NO thanks, I dont accept your proposition. Not that kinda guy (see above paragraph re Kevin Spacey)

    Geezus, what the he!! happened to education in this country? ...
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 815
    Thanks, Allen. I have seen the local dealers doing more, now that you mention it. It is just that all they do seems to revolve around freebies or low-price advertising. I haven't seen anything locally about "Ford - drive one" but that is a good approach. If more people would drive a Taurus or Sable instead of whining about their looks, those cars would sell. You don't have to crash one to feel how refined, comfortable, and well-built they are, either. The Fusion V6, Edge, and even the new Focus are good driving vehicles, too.

    I thought the Accord ad with the "hold on tight" song was great. I can picture that white Accord coupe in my mind as I type this. No, it doesn't speak to the car's features but it speaks to a young spirited feeling that a buyer might get if they owned one.

    Jeyhoe, I can't afford to hire a shrink but I might need to see a proctologist. I have been told I have my head up my butt for being so stubborn. ;)
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    bruce: Agree TOTALLY on the Accord ad. I hear the song and I see the Honda zooming past the billboards. I have no problem remembering what they're advertising, like I do with many ads.

    As for this: "Jeyhoe, I can't afford to hire a shrink but I might need to see a proctologist. I have been told I have my head up my butt for being so stubborn."

    HAHAHA! Loved it. Only comment is - keep an eye open while you're up there - you might see the next Lincoln design in an early stage!

    OOOOOHH NOOO . Rough crowd!
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 815
    Only comment is - keep an eye open while you're up there - you might see the next Lincoln design in an early stage!

    Man, you are cruel! Funny as heck but cruel! If I recall correctly, it was you who was in a focus group to view and provide comments on future Lincolns. I still blame you personally for their current products!
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    ;) Glad you got a laugh!

    Yeah, they used to invite me. Haven't for a year and a half or two now. But don't blame me - nothing I saw looked anything like what they're actually building. Makes one wonder about marketing research dollars ...
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,020
    I was only comparing the LS and Fusion from the standpoint of using it as a daily commuter car in traffic, and that includes going to lunch and taking people with me. It's easier to get in and out of the Fusion and there is a lot more rear seat room. And since I don't really get to use the slight V8 power advantage or handling advantages of the LS suspension on the twisties, the Fusion is fine - for my particular driving situation.

    If I was taking a lot of trips or I had a more fun daily drive then it would be a different story. When it's time to get rid of the Fusion I'll consider the MKS and maybe even a CTS or hopefully the new GRWD platforms will be here by then.
  • savethelandsavetheland Posts: 671
    Hey Joe, it looks like Volvo will replace Jaguar as Ford's global luxury flagship. Lincoln will always remain stepchild in Ford family. I read compare in Automobile between G8 and BMW 5 - Australian developed platform is not up to German/Japanese standards for luxury RWD cars. That’s why they use it in Pontiac instead of Caddy. And another thing - Maybach sells only 10% of projected volume and it is in life support most likely being killed soon. And Maybach uses older version of S class platform. New S class is superior. Maybach has a great interior and lots of features – but it does not help. For much less you can buy S-class which is better. And there is always RR which costs less, has DEDICATED platform and holds more prestige too. Tarting up pedestrian platform does not sell cars (just look at Acura). So I am not so sure that Lincoln with cheap Australian platform will sell. Rich people are smart, usually.

    BTW XF will not sell either - platform is too old – consider it as my prediction. Volvo also will fail as global luxury because it is nothing other than Swedish Taurus. It never was a luxury. Regarding Sweden - I learned today interesting fact that Sweden has school voucher program and schools compete in Sweden – public with private – no exception. And Sweden is a poster child for American liberals (read Democrats). No wonder that American public school system is constantly failing to deliver and is the worst school system in the world (well if you exclude Africa, though I am not so sure) and you get what you get – all engineering outsourced to Europe or Asia. And next step for government will be nationalization of banking system. So much for great capitalist system of USA
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Get a little off-track there?? :P
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 815
    I took Jeyhoe's advice and test drove an CTS this morning. A few observations:

    To get a CTS equipped as a luxury car, you are looking at low to mid 40s pricing. While I did not talk price with the salesman, he indicated that they sell as fast as he can get them and MSRP was the price - period. In any case, the car I drove lacked cooled seats and power tilt/telescope wheel but did have the sport package with 18 inch wheels, etc. Sticker was 42 and change.

    The CTS with the sport package provides a pretty firm, but not overly harsh, ride. The steering is very heavy compared to my LS. The car is very quiet on smooth asphalt but the sport tires are noisy on concrete. Overall, my non-sport LS rides a bit softer, has lighter steering, and has less road rumble on poor pavement. A CTS without the sport package would probably suit my tastes a bit better.

    Seat comfort was very good and the interior is well put together. Fit and finish is excellent. I see why the interior gets rave reviews. I still think the pop-up nav screen is tacky, though. I also don't like having to buy a high priced package just to get power tilt/telescope wheel. Rear seat room is not good - seems more cramped than my LS and not as comfortable.

    The DI V6 is quiet when cruising but WOT is raspy V6 noisy. It lacks the expensive sound of an LS V8. Performance is good - better than an LS V8 - but not quite as strong as I expected. The transmission with manumatic control is very quick and smooth.

    Overall, this is an impressive car. It can get spendy when you add options but if I wanted a sedan with emphasis on sport and a bit less on luxury, it would be a good choice. I would probably be more inclined to go for the STS because it is larger and more luxurious. The salesman said he would discount an STS by about 15% making it a better value than the CTS.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    You do tend to get what you pay for. I think Cadillac would rather have a CTS sale than an STS sale, because the CTS is hot and will command close to sticker. The STS does not command the same respect in the marketplace. The STS will be cheaper to buy, relative to what you get, but it will depreciate faster than a CTS, so it all likely comes out in a wash.

    You could get great deals on the Town Car, at least $10,000 of list with no problem. But you also got an ancient platform that was very creaky and clunky over harsh bumps, and anything but the latest equipment and features. Plus, it depreciated like a stone. All depends on what you want. I want Lincoln to produce a "gotta have" type car again, one with the draw of the CTS. Otherwise Lincolns will always be cars that only sell if they have incentives or large discounts from sticker.

    In the end, none of this matters much for the individual buyer. The BMW guy isn't going to consider any current Lincoln, and most Lincoln owners won't understand why anyone would pay such a premium to pilot a BMW. To each his own. But for Lincoln itself, they lose out by having nothing to offer those with high standards (or a high need to be conspicuous) and deep pockets.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,020
    The STS is being discontinued (along with the DTS) and replaced by a new RWD sedan in a couple of years.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 815
    Yes, I know the STS and DTS are scheduled to be replaced by one model in 2010. In spite of very good press, the STS has not been a hot seller which is why they are heavily discounted. The STS is still quite viable and competitive, however, and there is no comparison with the embarrassingly out of touch old TC.

    If the Ecoboost could have been introduced at the launch of the MKS, I think it would have created some needed buzz. Based on the looks of the MKR that I saw at the auto show, a model like that would fit in the "gotta have it" category, too.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,020
    If Mulally, Kuzack, Fields and Farley had taken over Ford 4 years ago we'd already have the Fiesta, DI 3.5 and 3.7 engines, ecoboost engines, new 5.0L and 6.2L V8s, dual clutch powershift transmissions, a unibody explorer, one Focus, one CD3 car (Fusion/Mondeo) and several new RWD sedans.

    As it stands we're still 2-3 years away from all that and there's not much that can be done to speed it up.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 815
    Yes, and another good thing coming will be the eye-watering re-style of the Taurus. It is a shame that such a great car and name is saddled with such a mundane bloated body. I thought I would say this before gregg takes another shot at the Taurus. :D
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Taking the wind out of my sales again.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,056
    to no longer be the most negative person on Edmunds regarding Lincoln.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    No, the wind is out of the Taurus' sales :)

    bruce: Nice review. If CTS is too small for you though, the XF probably would be too. (Though shouldnt your LS have been too small as well? Or have needs changed?) Interesting as to how many areas your 8 year old BUT DISCONTINUED LS held it's own against the best of Caddy 8 years later. TOO BAD FORD DIDNT KEEP REFINING THE LS. Eh? Ah, no worries. In 2013 ...

    I wonder how Caddy can afford to keep selling the CTS? Seems that since it's so similar to the LS, THEY OUGHT TO BE LOSING MONEY ON EVERY ONE THEY SELL. Eh?

    As fot the eco-boost engine - I recently read a review of the Mazda CX-7 which has a DI turbo 4cyl instead of a 6 cyl. Like ALL Fords are gonna have ... someday... because they will give "performance of a 6 with mpg of a 4" We all recall that line dont we? Well, the review of the CX-7 said, paraphrasing "This car would be far better off with the 6cyl that's in the CX-9. The power would be better AND THE GAS MILEAGE WOULD BE BETTER TOO. That's right, folks, mpg of the mazda engine as close as anything to eco-boost cannot match the mpg of the larger better performing V6. IS FORD DESTINED TO SCREW THE POOCH AGAIN WITH ECO_BOOST? Is eco-boost an eco-bust? Time will tell.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 815
    I think our friends Jeyhoe and gregg have you beat in that area. ;)

    No offense to any of you guys! I enjoy all of your posts. Chatting with witty and well informed enthusiasts who can also communicate intelligently is great fun regardless of differences of opinion.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    Yeah, thanks Bruce. I think sometimes I should shut my mouth and go away. But I'm stuck in Lincolnland for the time being.
  • savethelandsavetheland Posts: 671
    I always considered Lincoln as a luxury highway cruiser – similar to Mercedes or Lexus. See there is a Mercedes and BMW in Germany and Lexus and Infinity in Japan. Cadillac is already took place of US equivalent of BMW/Infinity. All comparos I’ve seen involving Caddy are with these two sedans. There is nothing similar to Mercedes or Lexus made for those who prefer American cars so Lincoln is naturally poised to fill this niche and there is nothing wrong with it. Lincoln tried to redefine itself by copying BMW when brought LS to market but screwed it - now is too late. GM won and Ford lost. But IMO being American Mercedes is not a bad thing. But still it requires superior well designed RWD platform and powerful and refined powertrain.
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