Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

hpmctorque

I hear you, but I still think Cadillac is on the right track, with its RWD platform, and Lincoln isn't. Lincoln will not compete effectively until it differentiates itself more from the Ford Division with some RWD models. Perhaps just as important as RWD, Lincoln needs to do another reset and start over on its styling, in my opinion.

cdnpinhead

"Lincoln needs to do another reset . . ."

Hey, now you're talking. They reset every two years or so. Since the LS was torpedoed they've reset, what was it, 3 times or 4?

It's a core competency.

Allen, among others, will point out that since the last reset not enough time has passed to do anything noteworthy.

Certainly true. Fewer "resets" would help. It's called consistent strategy & is very rare in today's corporate America.

akirby

Which vehicles are the highest volume at Lexus? Or Caddy? Here's a hint - they aren't RWD. Small to mid size cars and crossovers are where the volume and profits lie and it doesn't require RWD. You guys are confusing engineering excellence and magazine accolades with business success.

Of course it's not sexy and it is taking longer than some would like but if you look at it as a long term rebuilding strategy it makes far more sense than anything they've done in the last several decades.

It sounds like they'll have red label performance versions of most if not all vehicles next year. 300-400 hp with AWD. And hybrids. And high end customized designs. If you don't think that will work then we'll just have to wait and see.

It certainly doesn't work for Audi. Oh wait.....

edward53

So Lincoln now is going to introduce a special edition of vehicles with the Black Label title. You know ,that reminds me of the Lincoln designer series of the 1970's and 80's . It just show that Lincoln is all bark and no bite and is desperate for ideas to make this brand relevant to those below the age of 70. Or perhaps I am wrong and this is an attempt to cater to the hip replacement generation. Who knows what Lincoln's strategy is? All I know is that based on Lincoln's history with its designer series, one would have to pay extra for a special Lincoln built on the same Ford platform as the non special Lincoln with no corresponding gain in resale value over the non special Lincoln vehicle. I'm just waiting for the Givenchy series to make a comeback.

akirby

This is exactly the same program that BMW and other luxury makes offer. But yet again the rules are different for Lincoln.

In addition to black label luxury they'll also have green label hybrids and red label performance vehicles. But I'm sure nothing they do will ever be good enough for you.

stever

Steady - once again, we're discussing Lincoln, not each other.

[Deleted User]

The proof is always in the sales. Lincoln has not been able to move that needle for many years now, and as has been pointed out above, through many re-sets since they lost their mojo right around the turn of the century. I suspect the fall originally had much to do with Bill Ford's dislike of the brand and his decision to strangle it, even while touting the VW-like array of Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Land Rover, Aston Martin, Jaguar, Volvo and Mazda.

Lincoln needs lots more money to become a player again in the luxury market. Slowly, with each re-plan, they are throwing more money at the brand. Eventually, they will get to the level of investment it really takes in this competitive market--or they will never make it.

I agree with Allen that FWD/AWD can be the basis of some really good vehicles. Audi started with front biased AWD. It has moved toward extending the front axle closer to the front of the car for better balance, and adding in rear-biased AWD systems on many vehicles. Audi will have some RWD models at some point, in addition to the R8 and some rare specialty models in Europe. But they will keep their FWD/AWD base for many models for a long time to come. BTW, BMW and Mercedes will both be adding FWD models to their mix here, although their bread and butter will remain RWD/AWD.

Cadillac and Buick sales both skyrocketed last month. This seems to correlate with a greater model mix as well as new designs and updates. Those sales increases are especially noteworthy what with all the new iron from the other luxury and near luxury manufacturers, and great new models like the Cadenza and Azera from non-luxury brands--not to mention the sales gains by most other luxury brands at the same time.

Lincoln will move the needle when Ford starts devoting more of its profits to its struggling division.

robr2

I suspect the fall originally had much to do with Bill Ford's dislike of the brand and his decision to strangle it, even while touting the VW-like array of Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Land Rover, Aston Martin, Jaguar, Volvo and Mazda.

I don't think Bill Ford Jr disliked the Lincoln brand. Remember that Ford inherited all those brands from Jacques Nasser. IIRC, Ford's first order of business when he took over the CEO position was to get back to basics. Nasser ignored the Ford, Lincoln and Mercury brands in order to focus on his European adoptees. But Ford was stuck with them and couldn't find a buyer.

Mr_Shiftright

Big problem with the Lincoln is that there is ZERO "buzz" for the car out there. If they want to shoot bling for MTV, it's going to be an Escalade. The Navigator is kind of a mommy van.

hpmctorque

Lincoln could have become the premier luxury SUV brand, had it leveraged the Navigators lead in that segment. Instead, they threw away their first mover advantage. Lincoln SUVs seem competitive enough, but they've lost the edge they once had with the Navigator.

Lincoln cars are uninspiring, perhaps as much or even more so after the last redesigns. As I mentioned before, their cars, especially, need yet another reset. The sooner, the better.

There's a parallel between Lincoln and Acura. That brand did great between the 1999-2008 model years. The TL, in particular, was excellent and a great value. It sold very well. Then Acura lost its way. We'll see whether the TLS, which is based on the Accord platform and will replace the TL, will help restore Acura to its former glory.

akirby

They're saving the buzz for next year when they have more things to be buzzed about. We haven't seen any of the new Lincoln yet so it's impossible to judge it.

edward53

The BMW And Mercedes FWD models are really small . The Bimmer is the same dimension as the Mini that the Bimmer is based on and the Mercedes is based on its European mini van. These are simply produced to meet new CAFE standards. Because of their sub compact size, the only way for them to have any type of adequate interior space is to go with a transversely mounted engine and transaxle. A RWD setup would take up too much interior room because of the way the engine and transmission has to be mounted not to mention the drive shaft tunnel. The only Audi autos that share platforms with VW are the TT, A3, and A4. The rest have their own platforms and the A7 and A8 have full time AWD with the the split at 40/60. The premium price that one will pay for a Black Label Lincoln cold be better spent on a BMW or Mercedes . If you want to go American then, it would be A CTS-V-Sport. For all of Lincoln's money wasted on marketing gimmicks such as coming up with the Black Label editions, it could have developed its own platform and would probably have had a world class premium car with similar sales as now but at a premium price being paid to own one.

nvbanker

"GM's recent financial troubles are behind them for the moment. They are, like Ford, profitable. "

Sure GM is profitable. Given $50 Billion of "our" money, I could be wildly profitable as well!

They've paid $23.1B of the $49.5 billion in loans back to the Treasury. The
US Treasury owns 500M shares of GM stock. The share price has to get to $52.80 for the Treasury to recoup it's full investment WITHOUT interest. The current stock price is $36.33. Don't count on ever getting that back.

Meanwhile, Ford took nothing from us, and owes us nothing back. Cadillac is making a great product in my opinion - competitive on the world stage. I love the looks (finally), inside and out, and they perform. I would consider an XTS in White Diamonds, if the company wasn't owned by the Government (in essence). It's a good car. Most of the GM cars are getting there, after 50 years of decline, bilking the public, and miserable management. Ford's job one is to keep the company viable long term, Lincoln will play a part in that someday - but will they ever get me back? I don't know. Once you've moved overseas for Luxury cars, it's a challenge coming back, despite my affection for Lincolns of the past. It's taken me 23 years since I owned a Caddy to ever CONSIDER a new one.

I maintain my prediction - GM is only partially still on track, and still has $20BB of our dollars, interest and tax free, and won't be able to maintain this run for long = they'll be back in BK someday. Because this restructure wasn't done well.
We've got a ways to go!!

nvbanker

Audi has no RWD models. Although I prefer the RWD platform config, being an old fart (reminds me of my Galaxies of the past!), but there is no reason Lincoln should succeed with the AWD configuration that AUDI has made almost, the new standard.

Mr_Shiftright

That's not quite true. The government got stock in exchange--not the best stock purchase ever made, but if there are people buying Tesla at $170, and you approve of that, then you have no complaint, right? Well actually you DO have a complaint in that you didn't authorize the government to buy stock for you with your money.

The tricky thing with "disaster management", as occurred throughout 2008--2009, is that we don't get to see what WOULD have happened.

Ford may have been nobler, but the public doesn't seem to care all that much. Ford stock is still a good buy at around 16 or so.

berri

Bottom line to me on Lincoln is that you can put some spiffy Microsoft electronics on a car (regardless of whether it is very functional) and some lipstick on a dealership, but if a car is a Buick, it needs to be priced as a Buick. There's only so many suckers around that are going to spend luxo prices on a current Lincoln. Most consumers are smarter than that.

I'm also curious why Ford is so reluctant to put a couple of functional buttons and knobs on their dash. Young buyers may go for the gizmo's and looks, but realistically most lux and near lux buyers are older and buy those products after their kids are done with college and the house is almost paid off. I think maybe the Blue Oval still has a little bureaucracy and inability to step up to an issue they created. It can't be that expensive to fix. Ironically, reading stuff about regular Ford products seems to indicate that some of those younger buyers aren't all that keen owning My Ford and Synch either for that matter.

hpmctorque

I agree that Lincoln might succeed with FWD/AWD, but Audi has a big head start with its established "Quattro" system. While it's true that many buyers don't know or care about the drive wheel architecture, I think RWD would buy Lincoln more immediate acceptance by the automotive press. The enthusiast media, in turn, seems to have considerable influence on buying decisions.

Acura also seems to have a rough time establishing credibility with its larger sedans. The smaller ones can do just fine with RWD architecture, just as the Lexus ES 350 does.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think that Lincoln's new styling direction is even a greater head wind than the FWD vs. RWD issue. In my eyes, at least, the new Lincolns earn a 4 on a scale of 1-10.

akirby

Yes, a RWD performance vehicle would gain Lincoln a lot of respect and kudos from enthusiasts and automotive journalists. And they'd lose a fortune doing it.

hpmctorque

As far as I know Ford doesn't publicly disclose the P&L of its Lincoln Motor Car Division, but I'd bet that it hasn't been profitable. Do you think otherwise?

A nicely styled RWD car, maybe based on the next Mustang platform, would win approval and draw potential buyers into Lincoln showrooms. It would be a start in the right direction, which is something Lincoln desperately needs.

akirby

Ford specifically stated publicly that Lincoln was profitable and I don't think they would lie about that. It's not difficult to believe if you look at the high ATPs of the MKZ, MKX and MKS - they're certainly not discounting them or giving them away so even though they volumes are low they should be generating a lot of profit per unit. And with the shared platforms and manufacturing facilities their overhead is really low.

What I expect from Lincoln is this:

Revised MKZ - more unique styling, red label version - 375 hp AWD, black label luxury versions, green label hybrid
MKC - same as MKZ but with a smaller EB engine - 325 hp AWD
MKS - a longer, wider version of the MKZ
Navigator - totally new styling inside and out, shared F150 underpinnings with a top of the line high performance engine (maybe a supercharged 5.0?)
MKX - see MKZ including a green label hybrid version

I think there will be an Explorer sized CUV/SUV also.

The rest is speculation. They might do a C sized sedan/hatchback. There is a good chance they'll do something RWD using the Mustang platform - just not sure how quickly that will happen. But it's not the priority because the volume is in small to midsized cars, cuvs and suvs.

If they do all that and they get the dealerships upgraded with concierge service and new showrooms that deliver a Lexus like dealer experience then they'll be in great shape.

[Deleted User]

The R8 is already RWD/AWD. The next A8 is slated to be RWD based. Their FWD/AWD models are moving the engine further back on the chassis than had been usual for FWD, and they are biasing their AWD toward the rear with newer models. The difference between FWD/AWD and RWD/AWD is slowly diminishing.

I think Cadillac will keep the XTS even when they introduce a RWD model above the CTS. Like Mercedes, Audi, and BMW, more choices in more configurations seems to translate into greater sales.

It is interesting to look at the array of models sold here by Audi, Mercedes and BMW. If you look at fueleconomy.gov where all model iterations are listed, the list for Audi is 130 vehicles long within the families of the A3, A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, R8, Q5, and Q7. That list will grow considerably next year. BMW lists 100 models sold here (many more elsewhere, and more coming here momentarily). Mercedes has 77 models for sale here, and the CLA Class is not included in their list yet.

Cadillac sells 34 models in 2013. Lincoln markets just 16.

The numbers don't lie. Lincoln can do fine with FWD based AWD, as long as they have good product in a wide array of configuations.

Investment in niche models AND a good array of more mainstream luxury vehicles has paid off for every major manufacturer who has gone that route (the XLR does not count, because it was an overpriced POS introduced when the rest of the line was not much better). It may not seem sensible to spend a fortune on a halo car or three, but for some perhaps unfathomable reason, it works.

e_net_rider

HaVe you driven a Ford lately? And driven it for a length of time. Putting lipstick on the dealer will not solve the problems a vehicle comes with nor make the dealer more capable of fixing issues. Add that dealer or Ford choose not to fix because they "do not see a problem" under warranty and buyers will continue to dump Detroit. I can say that GM can be included under those statements and suspect Chrysler follows that pattern.
RWD? Nearly all I talk to prefer FWD over RWD so I do not understand the diehard fascination present in this forum. Someone enlighten me, please. If not for cost factors I'd bet their next choice would be AWD.
Recently I took my Dad's F-150 Xlt 4x4 in for service. The works, plus transmission service. No dealer in that part of WI would do the normal service and insisted on the much more expensive power flush. I caught them tightening wheels with impact wrench. And a couple days later I found tires inflated to 80 psi. They noted 4 mm brake pads on front. About 1600 miles later I hear metal to the rotor and end up doing an emergency brake job on Sunday before labor day because I was leaving the day after labor day. At least, that was a shabby brake inspection. And I was shocked that none of the dealers within 50 miles had a RFB wheel balancing machine. If you don't know, that will reject tires that are poorly made as well as show problems that develop including those that develop from manufacturers defects. It won't fix bad roads but give you the best ride and handling possible from the tire, assuming all else is to spec.
Detroit needs to fix it's game.

[Deleted User]

Sorry for your negative experience. Some dealers can be a real trip, especially for service issues.

All three US brands--Ford, GM and Chrysler--are registering serious sales gains. It is because all three are issuing better products (albeit all three still have some albatrosses in their line-ups). To a certain degree, it is also a rising sea floating all boats, but it is more than that. Quality--and dealerships--are improving with rising competition.

Lincoln is the only division among Ford, Chevrolet, Buick, GMC, Cadillac, Chrysler, Dodge, Ram, and Jeep (probably SRT division too, but I didn't check) that did not show significant sales gains last month. Lincoln has one of the oldest and least comprehensive product lines, so its lag behind all the others is not a mystery.

akirby

Due to state franchise laws, there is very little that Ford can do to control their dealers. When they try (such as the blue oval certified program a decade or so ago) they get sued and the dealers win. That's not to say Ford corporate doesn't have issues, especially with warranties. But when they do have bad dealers it's very hard to fix them.

This is one reason Lincoln has been trying to reduce the number of dealers and get the remaining ones to really invest in a separate Lincoln showroom and staff and a much higher level of service. It's an uphill battle for sure and it won't happen overnight but at least Lincoln realizes they have to fix that to compete and they're executing on that plan. Which wasn't the case 3 years ago.

ab348

@e_net_rider, haven't seen you for a while, ever since you left the Lacrosse forum after the dealer could allegedly not fix your Buick to your satisfaction. IIRC you bought a Lincoln. Now the Ford dealer cannot fix that car either?

I see a pattern here.

nvbanker

[I don't think Bill Ford Jr disliked the Lincoln brand.]

Wrong - Bill actively disdained Lincoln. Always has. Starved it to death, gave it no attention at all, and it's a miracle it still exists at all. Mullaly determined that Lincoln still had brand equity if they could develop a new product line with some panache, but that takes time & money. Now, I'm not going to predict if that will ever happen - but Ford is on record, disliking Lincoln.

Once Mullaly sold off all the foreign marques, Lincoln was left to carry the Country Club torch for Ford - someday....

Mr_Shiftright

I've been thinking about it for a while, and I just can't see a way out for Lincoln. I'm gonna go out on a limb and call this marque a dead duck in 5 years.

nvbanker

I hope you are wrong, but I also see a long, tough uphill washboard road ahead for them. They are such a Buick now. And aesthetically, an argument can be made that Buick is nicer. I'll go out on a different limb and predict that Mulally will put Lincoln on track for potential greatness, but Ford's life-long problem is inconsistency. When Mulally leaves, will the commitment to Lincoln remain, or will the money be cannabalized for other needs, condemning Lincoln to eternal ignominy, or as you say, death.

Mr_Shiftright

the MKZ seems to be propping up the entire brand. Now this is a company that in the 1990s sold 200,000 cars a year! And now...what...maybe 85,000?

nvbanker

Indeed, very sad. Neglect of product is no more apparent than with Lincoln. The lack of a good sedan is why after 16 years in Lincoln's I fled to Lexus. I fled Cadillac for Lincoln in 1990 for the same reasons. Even though Cadillac has its act together, I didn't even consider going back. I doubt I'll ever go back to Lincoln, even if I live long enough to see them back.

akirby

They said the same thing about Ford before Mulally arrived. They're trying something totally new here and to be fair we haven't really seen the new direction. We'll know a lot more over the next 12 months.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm not in doubt that they will come up with something "new". What I'm concerned about is that so few people have a Lincoln on their radar anymore. The American buying public is simply not focused at all upon this marque.

The history books are full of marques that produced their most magnificent products just before going out of business, because they simply had no pull in the showrooms anymore.

stever

They just need a doorbuster. Kind of like how the minivan "saved" Chrysler 30 years ago.

The hot market, once again, is SUVs. Ford has the underpinnings with the Explorer, not to mention the C-Max. Just massage the platform into a small luxury SUV/Crossover at a cheap enough entry point ($30k) and they could be off and running.

ohenryx

the minivan "saved" Chrysler
…
small luxury SUV/Crossover … and they could be off and running


I don’t think that’s going to work. The minivan is possibly (probably?) the most practical motor vehicle ever produced. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not crazy about minivans, but you absolutely cannot beat one for practicality. When Chrysler introduced the minivan, they changed forever the very shape of the car business. YAS (Yet Another SUV) could not possibly have the same impact, on the market or on the company.

stever

Okay, excellent point, so try this.

If I go to a Kia dealer, it's to see the Soul. I'm not really up on anything else they make. If I hit Toyota, it's to see a Prius. I looked at a Fit, but if I go back, it'll be to test an Odyssey. Ford? The C-Max. GM? The Equinox. Mazda? The 5 or the Miata.

I'm not going to hit a dealer for the brand in other words. I'm interested in certain cars I've read about.

SUVs are hot and Ford makes popular ones. Do a small, plush, but affordable one - Lincoln wouldn't be here now if not for the buzz the Navigator generated.

Jag is testing those waters with the C-X17 and MB is going to get a lot of showroom traffic with the GLA (the $30 CLA got tons of interest). Lexus could really make some noise if they don't tone down their LF-NX too much.

Whatever they do, give us an iconic name please. The Mark Tenner or something memorable.

edward53

Ever since Edsel Ford died Lincoln has intermittently been on the ropes only to have car people to come to its rescue then only to have the marketers and accountants screw things up for it again. I wonder now who are going to be the car people that save it. It just seems that Ford's marketing dept should be more concerned with the questions that it doesn't ask in its focus groups' psychographs when referring to the wants and needs of a limited number of discerning consumers who have the means to purchase 40k plus autos.

Lincoln can definitely be saved if Ford would make a full effort to save it which would mean no more half- hearted attempts at making a good Ford into a prestige class Lincoln.

euphonium

What will be Lincoln's demographic nitch in 5 years for each of their models?

MKS
MKZ
MKT
Navigator

Seldom see the MKS advertised on TV or in any of the car magazines. It seems that when you want to sell something, you advertise it more than a once in a while newspaper ad.

It has been noted the MKS has been deemed by Edmunds to be a "tarted up" Taurus. So we checked out the SHO and found it to be lacking interior options such as the only interior choice was Black, but after taking it out for a demo ride, we selected the MKS with the longer guarantee plus many other standard options. Ecoboost = 26 mpg @ 75 mph with mid grade gas.

nvbanker

I have read that Lincoln is designing an Escape sized Lincoln Cute Ute, with all the luxury and toys it should have.

But what I REALLY underscore, is your comment that it needs an iconic name - and I've been mourning the MK mania since it was introduced on the Zephyr years ago.

I owned Navigators, 2 of them, the last two Lincolns I had. Loved them intensely, and they were far superior to the Escalade at the time. I was invited to be included in a Focus Group on naming the little brother, (which ended up being the Aviator). All participants owned Navigators at the time. The marketing firm conducting the focus group were strongly trying to steer the group toward a letter/number name. The proposed LN4.6, Navigator 4.6, and a host of alphabet soup names like MKN. Everybody in the group vociferously defended the Navigator name be maintained for their trucks, and ONLY for their trucks, and encouraged a Name name for the little brother - Aviator was eventually chosen, a great choice I thought. I was sorry to see it die, it was a nifty product, and sold quite well. I personally loved that the likeness was so good, you had to look pretty carefully to distinguish the difference.

We, in the group, could tell Lincoln was trying to join the Cadillac Alphabet soup naming trend, and we didn't like it. I would like to see some of the Lincoln legacy names considered for this new Ute - Premier, Cosmopolitan, Continental. Town Car should be resurrected on a product befitting the name. There is so much brand equity in the Town Car name, it's criminal to waste it now. Town Car became "THE CAR" in New York for livery service. It had 98% of the Limo conversion business. I understand sales dropped to an untenable low towards the end, but a large part of that was the reliabiilty of the car made them last forever. The other reason for the decline is the interiors became Taxi Cab quality, so retail sales just disappeared. It needs a new blockbuster product called the Town Car - and I believe that would go a long way toward resurrecting the Brand.

stever

Cool, now there's at least two of us in the choir.

What's really amazing is that apparently the focus organizers listened to your group.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm gonna have to buck this a bit---while I do agree that some decent product names are badly needed for Lincoln, and also that there may be value in legacy names, the term "Town Car" has been so degraded I can't imagine it having any cache anymore. If anything, to me, "Town Car" says "look rich for cheap", or "rent me for your wedding", or "can I take you to the airport?"

"Cosmopolitan" still works for a slick magazine, so maybe....does Mazda still own "Cosmo"

"Continental" sounds, to me, like phony rich--wannabee. Now busloads of tourists go to "the continent" (Europe).

And "Mark" is pretentious in this day and age, as if Lincoln cars have any relationship to past "marks"? They don't.

I like the name Navigator.

Cadillacs naming system is a total botch IMO. yeah, I know, some of the imports aren't any better, BUT they did it first at least.

edward53

The problem with this is that the marketers only did a psychographic on those who were already Lincoln owners. A better method would be to do a psychographic on those who hold no allegiance to the brand. Do a psychographic on Mercedes or BMW owners etc.That is the way to determine what makes these owners buy those brands instead of Lincoln. Lincoln can then engineer vehicles that conform to their needs. That is the way for Lincoln to increase its market share. It has to bag some of these owners to survive.

akirby

I don't care for the MK names either. They started out as Mark X, Mark Z, etc. but the Mark got dropped for MK. I've heard they're going to revive the Continental name and I'd be hugely surprised if the new explorer based crossover/suv isn't named Aviator.

But I agree - Town Car is dead and should remain that way.

edward53

Lincoln has more problems than what monikers it gives its products. I would bet that most of those who buy premium vehicles besides Ford products don't consider a Lincoln a prestige vehicle. I would also say with some certainty that most of these folks believe that they would get the same bang for the buck from the Ford vehicles as they would from Lincoln. All is not lost though. Cadillac had this problem with being compared to GM's other makes. After heavy investment in new products and designs, now those who purchase foreign premium vehicles would consider purchasing a Cadillac . The hang up with these folks is that Cadillac vehicles are not as expensive as the foreign vehicles they now drive. Look for Cadillac to continue to increase its sticker prices.

akirby

Of course they don't consider Lincoln a prestige vehicle because they're not there yet. But they're still able to sell 8K vehicles per month with relatively high ATPs and low incentives with only one decent product that's only halfway to where they want it to be. And without a small crossover like the SRX.

Expecting any more from Lincoln today is like expecting a nfl expansion team to make it to the super bowl their first year. They have several years to get all the pieces in place. How many iterations and platform changes did it take Cadillac to get to where they are today? The first gen CTS, SRX, DTS, STS and XLR weren't that great either.

berri

Lincoln names - how about Electra, Invicta and LeSabre :-)

nvbanker

And Buick should bring those back too, IMO. There is nothing better about LaCross (an embarrassing word in French, BTW), Lucerne (now dead) and Enclave.....

You forgot Roadmaster and Special.

nvbanker

I'm surprised about the backlash I'm getting on the Town Car brand. I don't disagree that it was bastardized terribly on the retail side - but somewhere around 1995, Nasser made the decision that the Town Car was hopelessly out of date, and would be designed in 98 to be a Livery Only car. The dealers could have retail versions, but they would not be much of an upgrade from the Limo packages the car would be designed for, ie: with plenty of room up front for meters, phones, equipment, etc., hence, no consoles. The leather became low grade, and all the pure luxury the 95-97 had, was wiped out with one slash of the pen. That's when the car started to devalue on a retail basis, but the rock-solid dependability, decent fuel economy for the size, and cavernous cabin & trunk, made them unparalled for livery service - their new destiny. Talk to a limo company (lots of them here in Vegas) and they will mourn the demise of the Town Car - the things were indestructable, and after 300,000 or so miles, if you needed a major component, they were cheap to replace. Things lasted forever. The MKT replacement Lincoln is selling now in Limo package form is a lousy substitute. It's big enough, but not as tough, not good looking at all, and not nearly as durable. It's doomed IMO. Ford had almost the entire livery market between the Crown Vic and Town Car. While I admit, the Town Car had become known mostly as a livery car - I thought its appeal could be revived with a dazzling new luxury model that deserved a legacy name. Maybe I'm wrong.

berri

...and Crown Vics made good cop cars and taxicabs. I think the problem with "Town Car" is that it epitomizes what has led to Lincoln's failure - gussied up Ford which in a stretch might be considered near lux, but selling at lux prices. No doubt it made a good livery or basis for a limo, but honestly I think one of the things that killed it off was that consumers woke up and figured they could get basically the same car that prettied up a Crown Vic in a slightly higher priced Grand Marquis, so why bother shelling out for a Lincoln and experiencing the depreciation hit. Can you objectively sit in a Lincoln and justify it's sticker price compared to many of it's competitor's - I can't. And that's even before the huge depreciation hit to my wallet after the sale! I have serious doubts Ford will turnaround Lincoln based on what they've done so far, and time is running out as the competitors keep moving the bar.

nvbanker

I think the Lincolns of today stack up very competitively with Buick .

The Panther is dead. Probably should be. Interesting to me, though, how Ford totally dominated the Livery, Taxi and Interceptor market for decades with these indestructible cars. Most of us don't know how cheaply they were sold to fleets either. Some as cheaply as $12,000 brand new! And Ford still made money on every one thanks to long ago depreciated values on the architecture. Eliminating the Panther cars opened up the market again to several manufacturers for the livery, taxi and police fleets. All offerings though, will cost more. They'll be better in many ways, but not tougher.

I like the MKS. I could be happy in one, but their price new is high for what you get. If you buy it 6 months old though, you can save $20,000, making it a good buy.

robr2

There is nothing better about LaCross (an embarrassing word in French, BTW)

If you are a 13 YO boy who speaks Quebecois French then it is slang for self pleasure. In the rest of the French world - and in Quebec if one doesn't giggle - it means hooked stick.