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The reality is (based on how the market works) that both of them are near luxury. The differences are one is a RWD sedan with a sporty emphasis and another one is a FWD land yacht.
However, based on they way they are putting it out there...the Genesis will offer more luxury than the Azera. Whereas the Azera gives you a taste of luxury with some of it's offerings, the Genesis will seem more so.
Yes they are.... but hypothetically: say the Taurus or Impala was a Chrysler would it make sense to have that along side the 300? Its no different than the Azera/Genesis combo. Put the eggs in one basket and let it ride, otherwise you are just competing with yourself.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
At least with the Azera/Genesis...they may share powerplants, but other than that...everything else about them is different.
Do you see the Charger and 300 being sold under the same roof and same lot?
However, with those being the same car with differing sheetmetal and different feels, the Azera/Genesis is nothing like that at all. Why can't a car company offer two large sedans? :confuse:
Don't know about you, but most dealerships around here do just that.
Jordan Frazier Chrysler Dodge Jeep - Bessemer, AL
Greater Birmingham Chrysler Dodge Jeep - NE Birmingham, AL
Benchmark Chrysler Jeep Dodge - East Birmingham, AL
Jim Burke Chrysler Dodge Jeep Chevrolet - Downtown Birmingham, AL
All of these are singular lots, not same name / different location dealers. This may not be all, just the first four I thought of.
Of course it can but I just think it might be better with Genesis being sold under a different brand. Apparently Hyundai doesn't agree so let's just wait and see how well will the Genesis do.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
After all...Hyundai and Kia are sister companies, right?
My only worry: Does that create problems for how the two brands are marketed in Korea? Pretty safe bet that both models do better there than here. Personally, I have no idea whether it does.
That's funny, because every article I've read, every person I've talked to in the industry, no one has yet to categorize the Genesis as near-luxury. Yes, it is battling (in price) with many near-luxury/preimum sedans, but top to bottom, this is a luxury sedan by trade. Non-luxury makers make luxury cars, just as much as luxury makers make non-luxury cars.
I think what you meant is perception, which is different than the actual product itself.
With enough publicity, the perception will come around over time
Is that really a problem??? As a company CEO, I wouldn't mind having that problem at all.
Why are you suggesting that there is only one level of blue collar worker??? Why would you suggest that there aren't any that would be interested in buying the Genesis at the price it's being offered? Not everyone has your mindset.
Why would the Azera be his better choice? If you're throwing gas prices out there, the Genesis would likely get about the same FE in 3.8 trim as the Azera does.
They would be selling a more expensive car that's offering much more than the Azera does, why doesn't it make sense??? You guys keep making it seem as if the Azera and Genesis are evenly matched vehicles...they are not. With the Genesis, you're talking Lexicon sound system, self leveling HID's, XM & HD radio, Bluetooth, premium leather, UV reflective steering wheel, heated & cooled seats, smart cruise control, smart key...none of which comes in the Azera (save for XM).
OK I'll bite - what makes the Azera really any different than the Amanti? Engine/tranny/chassis are now the same, size is the same - but do understand that the Amanti is even softer than the Azera - the ultimate ultimate Buick if you will. Isn't the Amanti honestly a rebadged Azera in the same way you might consider a Lucerne V8 a rebadged DTS or a Charger a rebadged 300?
CR recently tested the current Amanti BTW, had good things to say about drivetrain refinement (the 3.8), and price (said they paid a bunch less than the $30k sticker) but faulted it for being too soft and for subpar reliability.
I for one, can't wait to sit back and watch Hyundai change the game.
I'll see you guys in the Luxury Lounge or ELLPS/ELLS boards for the continue on Genesis discussions.
Wow...if they praised the drivetrain on the Amanti, wouldn't that also mean the drivetrain on the Azera is being praised as well...they are the same. The Amanti would more than likely be even softer in ride quality compared to the Azera and the reliability thing may change now that it has the newer 3.8 powerplant in it. The Amanti suffers because of it's not so stellar history since it's been around for a minute.
So, those automakers attempted at making luxury/premium cars; the performance part is irrelevant at this point.
This is exactly what Hyundai brings to the market - the company has made a luxury RWD sedan called the Genesis. How to the market preceives it is a whole different story althogether.
Really? You may want to check with VW...
while it certainly may do just that - why in the world spend literally hundreds of millions developing a 'ground-up' car when you could do the same thing for a lot less by just improving what you got? Or maybe, as you contend, what they got doesn't need much improving. Either way a whole lot more economical to be patient.
Hyundai's existing product line is already quite extensive, been waiting for them to follow Toyota and Nissan into that province of America called the 'pick up truck' and further license out some hybrid technology.!
We are contradicting ourselves here!! :confuse:
Anyway...the Hyundai line-up is quite extensive.
Maybe...because of price??? Outside of that, I wasn't the one that put the Genesis in this forum, that's a move that can be requested by posters, but ultimately...the moderator sets it up. So...ask Pat.
Why can't the Genesis be the one car that changes definitions? Why can't it be a luxury car that fits in the Mainstream Large Sedan segment?
You're only contradicting yourself if you're not open minded enough to accept the possibilities.
The Amanti suffers because of it's not so stellar history since it's been around for a minute. And Hyundai has been around for what 'two minutes', in relative terms?
I am not sure about a pickup, that may be a very risky move (w/ the pickup market itself)
But hybrid and diesel is certainly in the plans for the near future, like most other automakers, plus LPG.
Sorry for being off-topic
FE is the one department that Hyundai/Kia could stand to improve.
I may not have an open mind but at least I know one thing: "luxury" and "mainstream" do not go hand-in-hand together. No matter how one spins it, as long as the thing is "mainstream" it is no longer "luxury". Flying was considered a luxury way of travel back in the 50s and 60s, how's that for today? Cars were considered as rich men's toys in the early 20th century, how's that for today?
I am done arguing about this but whoever think that the Genesis is a "luxury" sedan apparently have no clue about what's in the minds of those luxury car owners.
My thinking has been until/unless we learn that it is not, we can talk about it, but I'm certainly willing to be educated on that point.
The term 'mainstream' I believe to be a primarily price distinction - much like this forum used to be 'Large sedans under $30k' . The 'luxury' part of this is of no consequence, the car in question should by most of definitions be financially attainable - and I don't mean by some college kid that might have just landed his/her first job. That would keep things probably between $20 and $35k.
You took the words right out of my mouth - I agree completely. But I think until we know for sure the price range of vehicles like the Genesis and the G8 and as long we have no reason to reasonably expect they will be out of the mainstream in terms of that definition, there is no reason to exclude them here.
What we do need to exclude is the vehicles that clearly belong in another multi-comparison topic such as Midsize Sedans, Near Luxury Performance Sedans, Luxury Performance Sedans, etc.
And we also need to exclude the never-ending brand wars, which somehow always manage to turn into Hyundai vs. whomever. As I've said a zillion times, there are topics on the Auto News board for those kinds of threads.
Also, it is really only a problem to have two large sedans if they are not selling. If they are both winners then who cares.
Is that how it is in YOUR mind? Come on now, running water can be a luxury to some.
What is the definition of "mainstream"??? "generally used to mean that which is ordinary or usual with familiar appeal to the masses." (as defined on Wikipedia)
Luxury - expensive high-quality surroundings, and the great comfort that they provide (as defined by Encarta Dictionary)
Why in the world can't the luxury of the Genesis (high-quality surroundings and the great comfort they provide) be mainstream if the price gives it familiar appeal to the masses?
Like I said, Hyundai is going to change the game with the Genesis.
I am done arguing about this but whoever think that the Genesis is a "luxury" sedan apparently have no clue about what's in the minds of those luxury car owners.
This has nothing to do with what's in the minds of those luxury car owners, this has to do with what the Genesis offers. You obviously have a limited understanding of what luxury is.
Is that really a problem??? As a company CEO, I wouldn't mind having that problem at all.
actually there is something called the 80-20 rule in corporate America (and beyond) - that you spend 80% of your time (and resources) selling 20% of your products. The resolution of this - get rid of that '20%' product.
I don't think so, but we shall see.
I agree with you on the Excel (even though I had one...an 87 that lasted to just over 250K miles).
However, like I said...the Azera hasn't been around long enough to really say one way or the other that it's reliable or not.
sorry, bad use of the King's English - what I meant to say was that Hyundai couldn't point to a car made 10 years ago or more with 'pride', meaning anything from the late 90's and earlier - something you kinda confirm with your example of a 6 year old Sonata you thought was good. This, in a nutshell, is Hyundai's problem there are many of us that remember 10 years ago like it was yesterday.
I think it could be successfully argued that the Japanese who produced a bunch of '[non-permissible content removed] Crap' back in the middle late 60s, started improving their product in the 70s, but really didn't establish a 'quality' reputation until the mid 80s. And even that was 'winning by default' because of what Detroit was doing at the time. It took something about 15 years to 'live down' their mistakes - now you think that this same kind of thing is going to change for Hyundai in less than half that time? And before you get upset, I'm not really knocking Hyundai's current products, just trying to support my contention that a Korean car is not yet thought of as a 'quality' product. This is the Azera'a problem and should also be the Genesis' problem as Hyundai tries to go upmarket with a product that is not perceived that way. 'Cart before the horse' as I said in an earlier post. It will likely change - eventually.
However, putting it into the terms of what the Japanese makers went through...crap int he 60's, improvement in the 70's and quality by the 80's...that would mean, it's Hyundai's time. Crap in the 80's, improvement towards the end of the 90's, now we are well into the '00's with greater improvement and quality on the horizon. The thing that Hyundai has going against is are the established Japanese makers. Like you said, the the Japanese only had to overcome poor American offerings and that wasn't hard to do. Heck...even Hyundai has done that at this point.
I hear what you're saying and the way Hyundai can change perception is be more aggressive at getting folks into the show rooms to actually see their products. I believe that Hyundai had to go upmarket to bring even more appeal to make folks want to come see what they are all about. The more appealing a product, the more interest can be generated, right?