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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    HUH??? Have you seen the new CTS???
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    I believe originally the plan was to make the impala on the same platform as the g8 and produce it in the same factory that is being set up in North America (not sure if the US or Canada) to produce the Camaro, this was also supposed to take over the production of the G8 from (I.e. the G8 would no longer be produced in Austrailia) what I understand. Don't know if these plans have changed or not though.
    Scott
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Funny thing happened...my car pulled straight ahead and my steering wheel didn't turn one way or the other

    Apparently you have no idea how to "stomp on the gas" thus you never experienced some serious torque steer. Now I understand why you think TS in a FWD is not a big deal.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    It's finally (semi) official: RWD cars like a new Pontiac GTO (and Holden Monaro) and Impala are "gone for now." Bob Lutz has been making noises about it for a while, and every announcement gets more and more certain that the front wheels will be pulling more GM cars.

    Just a month ago, Lutz told Forbes "That's where the internal debate [on the Impala] is now -- no firm decision at this point, but my guess is that we will come down on the side of the front-drive car." By the time of last week's Detroit Auto Show, Lutz was telling GoAuto "I think the (Monaro/Pontiac GTO) is gone for now.... [T]hat's not the end of the market where we want to stimulate demand. We have to find ways to stimulate demand and desirability in cars that will get us closer to the 35 MPG average."

    How will that be done? Perhaps by using the Alpha midsize platform and making CUV's. However, the Alpha still hasn't been signed off on, and won't be until GM figures out what -- and how many -- standards it will need to adhere to when the CAFE tug-of-war ends.


    Source: Autoblog
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    HUH??? Have you seen the new CTS???

    The CTS is midsize at best but the Impala is a full-size sedan.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Yeah...that's really hard to accomplish.

    I never said torque steer in a FWD is not a big deal, find any post where I said that. I said that torque steer in my Azera was no big deal. Get it right.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    It's a midsize based on it's interior space, but that has nothing to do with the platform it's riding on.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    So what's your point?

    Avalon and Camry also share platform but is the Camry "based" on Avalon?

    The RWD Impala (if it happens, which is highly doubtful at the moment) will highly likely to share platform with the CTS (there aren't that many RWD platforms in GM anyway) but it's a stretch to say that the Impala is "based" on the CTS.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Drive your Azera to LA, I'll show ya...

    ;)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    My Azera does just that, it's not uncontrollable, but one better be paying attention
    and they all do whether it be Azera, Avalon, Maxima, Impala etc etc.because it is simply the results of the laws of physics. Nissan products, for one reason or another, have been a champion of torque steer issues ever since the late 80s and the 190hp Maxima. My Avalon OTH despite substantailly more hp and torque, it is barely discernable - but it is there. Don't know that anybody can really contend that the TS is dangerous, and some even find it kinda invigorating. Nonetheless combine even more torque from a big ole V8, in a heavily front weight biased car all going to those same front wheels- and you are simply asking for problems.

    PS If you ever get a chance, drive a little Mazdaspeed3, ~260hp turbocharged 4 banger, and a real hoot from a power perspective (sub 6 0-60s) but also a real handful if you are not expecting all the torque steer. Perhaps the ultimate 'rice rocket', but certainly not a sports sedan of any sort.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Thank you for saying what I already said. :P

    If you go back and read, I refered to the FUTURE Impala not the current one. However after a couple of other postings...it's quite possible it could be based on the same platform as the CTS or the same as the G8. Then again, by that time...maybe all of them will share the same platform. Who knows.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Trust me...there is nothing you can show me when it comes to driving a car. Besides...I don't think I want to turn my car over to someone that thinks a little torque steer is uncontrollable. LMAO I mean...I can understand if you were talking about enough torque to yank the steering wheel out of your hand, but that is hardly the case in any of the cars in this forum.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    from the sound of this - it does sound like the bean counters are going to have their way, and we will be denied a much need improved Impala etc. If there is one thing that GM (and Ford/Chrysler) ought to be able to do, it is to build big ole RWD V8s, that suck enough gas that'll have you wishing that gas was 50 cents/gal. again. Understand why the new 35mpg (eventual requirement) CAFE would have GM shying away - but OTH, if they make enough of them 'flex fuel' even that may not be a problem, because they don't count the alcohol consumed in the FE calculations.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    The "new" Avalon is based on the previous Camry chassis. The current Camry and ES are... well, figure it out.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Yeah, they are platform mates, but that's different than...

    The ES is "based" on Camry
    The Escalade is "based" on Yukon
    The G8 is "based" on Commodore
    The Sierra is "based" on Silverado

    Get it?

    No matter what, the RWD Impala would not be "based" on the CTS simply because it's not the right size.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    "The "new" Avalon is based on the previous Camry chassis"

    No it isn't. The '05+ Avalon was a complete redesign. Yes it is now shared throughout the line, but was a new platform not the same one dating back to the early 90s Camry.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let's try to stick to the mainstream large sedans here, please. We have other discusisons for the other cars - I know all of you know where they are located. :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Besides...I don't think I want to turn my car over to someone that thinks a little torque steer is uncontrollable. LMAO I mean...I can understand if you were talking about enough torque to yank the steering wheel out of your hand, but that is hardly the case in any of the cars in this forum.

    I am responding against my better judgment here, but I believe that poster's definition of "uncontrollable" has been identified as the fact that the car hasn't controlled the torque steer, not that the car itself cannot be controlled safely.

    To all...aren't we stuck in a loop here?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    "Discreetly Fast
    Redesigned from the ground up, the Avalon now rides on a stretched version of the current Camry platform."

    from Edmunds' 5-car comparison tests of full-sized sedans in 2005.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    "Toyota says that the all-new Avalon is the most-American vehicle they've produced to date, a claim that's difficult to dispute, as the car was styled in California, engineered in Michigan, and will be built in Kentucky. Speeding from final approval to production in a mere eighteen months, the Avalon boasts more power and an improved interior"

    This is from Automobile mag. I read the article you mentioned above, it is probably the only article that I have ever read saying the 05+ Av is based on the previous Camry. So either an Edmund's.com reporter is wrong (I've noticed errors before in some of the reviews) or every other site/mag has a different meaning of "all new". Anyway, even if it is the same it must be highly modified as the suspension parts are all completely different and the wheelbase is at least 3" or 4" greater.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    imidazo for years now has been stuck on one review from a female reviewer that obviously didn't know she was talking about and was only restating what she knew to be true in previous versions of the Avalon. Maybe we could encourage a little research or just let the poor man wallow in his own ignorance. We have been through this before. No matter in any case, I think you and I both know what the Avalon is (and isn't) ;)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Personally I think you were so narrow-minded on trying to prove the Avalon is using the previous-gen Camry platform you missed the most important piece of information:

    Though the current Camry platform served as the basis for the Avalon, Toyota says that the entire platform has been reworked to accommodate the longer, wider Avalon (1 in. taller, 1.5 in. wider and 5 in. longer than the current Camry.)

    Oh, by the way, do you know that the current Camry is riding on a modified platform from the previous gen as well? It's typical Toyota to use one platform for 2 generation of cars, you can bet on that the next gen Camry would sport a brand new platform.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    >the entire platform has been reworked to accommodate the longer, wider Avalon

    That means they changed the skin and attachment points.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The current Camry and Avalon rides on an updated platform. It is not considered new, despite some reports claim otherwise.
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    A reporter seeks to interview owners of cars with more than 100,000 miles on their odometers. Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com today, February 21, 2008, with your daytime contact information and a few sentences about your vehicle.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I need to get you to start reading some governmental garbage if you are going to believe everything you read and/or intrepret it as you see fit. I would like you or anybody else to tell me exactly what parts or pieces of a 2004/2005 Camry are shared with the 2005+ Avalon - let's see now we all know the 2GR is not related in any way shape or form to the old 3.0/3.3s because it was an extensive rework of the 4.0 truck engine, we know that both the wheelbase and width changed so therefore the chassis isn't the same, we know further that suspension components like brakes, shocks, springs etc. are not shared with the older Camry (check the part numbers), we certainly know that none of the sheet metal and or interior/exterior fitiments are the same. HAVE I COVERED ABOUT EVERYTHING THAT GOES INTO ANY VEHICLE YET? Maybe the power window switches, or the little chrome Toyoyta emblem or things really important like that are shared. How about the 12 VDC power outlets? - that must be it, I guess. BUT, come to think of it, the 5 speed auto that was used in the V6 equipped 04 Camrys might have been modified for the 2GR, although I kinda suspect that may also not be the case - because of the higher HP and torque of the 2GR.
    I stand by my comment. And yes the 07 Camry is instead a shortened 05+ Avalon, quite the opposite what it used to be and they do share some components
    , mainly in the powertrain. This is largely semantics, but if you are going to tell me that the 05+ Avalon is 'based' on ANYTHING else, then it should and would have at least some parts commonality with whatever that was - which it didn't at the time.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    There is a difference between...

    The Impala is based on the CTS

    and

    The impalas is based on the CTS platform (which is based on the Sigma platform architecture).

    I don't have a problem with the later but I do with the former.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    >now has been stuck on one review from a female reviewer that obviously didn't know she was talking

    I dont' know why you think a female reviewer obviously didn't know (what) she was talking about

    link title"The next-generation of Toyota's premier sedan is scheduled to appear in 2005. The Camry's older, more genteel sibling will feature an updated profile based on a Camry platform. Expected to be larger and longer than its predecessor, the new Avalon will also feature a more spacious interior. Powertrain will be a 3.5-liter V-6, which is basically a beefed-up version of the Camry's current engine. This V-6, which will probably be mated to a five-speed automatic, should be capable of at least 270-horsepower."

    This next article is by two men, one of whom is an engineeer for Toyota. Would he know how the car was built?

    link title

    Automotive Industries, March, 2005 by John Peter
    Shigeki Terashi, executive chief engineer, Toyota Technical Center (TTC), is standing beside the new Toyota Avalon, arms outstretched with his fingers pointed, like he's describing the size of the fish that got away. He's using his hands to section off the redesigned and re-engineered 2005 Avalon, showing where new technology has been added to the existing Camry platform to create the Avalon.

    "He points out that from the firewall forward, the Avalon is "all new"--from the firewall to the B-Pillar, "Camry"--from the B-Pillar to the bulkhead, "all new"--from the bulkhead back, "Camry."
    The Avalon also shares the Camry's shock towers and rear suspension as well as many of the underbody frame components.

    "Though the current Camry platform served as the basis for the Avalon, Toyota says that the entire platform has been reworked to accommodate the longer, wider Avalon (1 in. taller, 1.5 in. wider and 5 in. longer than the current Camry.)

    "The engine bay has been redesigned to accept the new V-6 engine and transmission and the rear seat area was stretched (four of the five extra inches), to create the longer wheelbase and flat, tunnel-less floor allowing for comfortable three-across seating. The rear end has extensively redesigned crumple zones and has also been modified to accept dual exhaust, a first for a Toyota sedan.

    "The body uses more high-strength steel in the underbody areas and shock towers to improve safety while saving weight. The added steel also increases torsional stiffness. The rear doors have dual side-impact beams and three-stage door check rods that increase the door opening angles to nearly 90 percent.

    "It's not surprising that the Avalon shares so much with Camry, as it will share the same Georgetown, Kentucky, assembly line along with the Solara. Terashi says that the next-generation Camry will use a shortened version of this platform and the new 3.5L V-6, most likely with reduced horsepower.

    "Safety and Handling
    The Avalon shares its suspension with Camry."

    Oh, did I mention the title is Camry extra large: Toyota's "Most American" sedan finds its rightful place at the head of the family table.

    Soooo, BEFORE you start suggesting someone is a "POOR MAN WALLOW IN HIS OWN IGNORANCE"...

    If I understand the quote (ignorant as I am) the Avalon was based on the then current Camry chassis and some changes for Avalon found their way into the Current Camry chassis as a shortened version that's "all new" also.

    Please feel free to email me with further comments, but do a little research first before you ridicule female reviewers and posters on a personal basis. I enjoy reading female reviews in our Dayton Daily News because she's less into the testosterone-challeged mindset of horsepower and size, and talks more about the cars. She works with David Mikesell of Indianapolis review fame; sometimes they both talk about the car.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    "Powertrain will be a 3.5-liter V-6, which is basically a beefed-up version of the Camry's current engine"

    There is just so much bad info out there.... the 2GR V6 is not a "beefed up" 3.0/3.3 engine at all. Not even close, its a varient of the 4.0 L V6 used in the Four Runner.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Louis...one who lives in glass house should not throw stones.

    His point is actually quite valid. You see...you jumped on me for saying that the Impala simply couldn't "share" a platform with the CTS because the CTS was "too small" in your words. Platforms can be modified for other vehicles, even if they are bigger than the vehicle it started under.

    However...the statement I made wasn't really a statement, it was merely and expressed thought about one possible option. Someone else brought up the fact that the Impala could be based on the same platform that the G8 is on...which is also a possibility. I never said the Impala WOULD share (or be based on) the CTS platform, I simply said it could be. The reality is...it very well could be and that's the point that Imidazol97 made by pointing out the Avalon using a re-worked Camry platform.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Allmet33, you need to re-read my previous posts. I never said that RWD Impala couldn't share platform with the CTS, what I said is that it wouldn't be "based" on the CTS like the ES is "based" on Camry. If the IS can share platform with the GS, G35 can share platform with M35/45 and Camry can share platform with the Avalon then why can't a RWD Impala share platform with a CTS.

    Looks like someone needs to catchup on his reading skills...

    Usually I don't throw stones while in a glass house, it's always some dang annoying kids who throws stones at my glass house.

    ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Okay...why can't it be "based" on the CTS platform? Why is it an impossibility?

    You said that the CTS was too small for the Impala to be based on it's platform. Why, oh why great and wonderful Louis...can you PLEASE explain why the future Impala (if it were to go RWD) can't be based on the current CTS platform???
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Okay, go back and re-re-read my previous posts, did I say...

    1. The RWD Impala can't be based on the CTS platform

    or

    2. The RWD Impala can't be based on the CTS but can share platform

    Was it option 1 or option 2? Seriously, please stop putting words in my mouth.

    The "CTS platform" is only one version of GM's Sigma platform, current vehicles based on this platforms are: STS, SRX and CTS. So since the Impala is a fullsize sedan it can't be based on the "CTS platform" but can share the Sigma platform with the CTS.

    Is it clear for you now?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You said it can't be based on the CTS platform.

    Okay...let's see if we can't make sense of this.

    If the CTS platform exists first and it's a tad bit too small for the Impala to use as is. Then...if it were re-worked to fit the Impala, wouldn't that be an Impala "BASED" on the CTS platform?

    In your own words, you basically said (when I first posted about it) that the CTS platform wouldn't work because it was too small (I dare you to go back and check that out...you DID say that). Well...with the current CTS platform having just really changed...I doubt if it would change again by the time the RWD Impala would be brought out (if it even goes RWD). Now...if they changed the CTS platform and made it bigger and it would fit the Impala, THEN...they would be SHARING platforms.

    So...based on your own words, they couldn't share platforms based on what I orginally said about the FUTURE RWD Impala being based on the CURRENT CTS platform.

    What was that you said about reading? :surprise:
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Since you are accusing me of saying the RWD Impala can't be based on the CTS "platform" then please provide evidences. Last I checked I don't have to provide evidence if the prosecutor thinks that I am guilty, it's the accuser's responsibility to provide the evidence. So either show me or shut up.

    Once again, I've said that the RWD Impala can share platform with the CTS but it can't be based on CTS or CTS platform because it is just too small. The reality is, the CTS platform is too small for a RWD Impala but both can share the Sigma platform. A CTS platform is dedicated for CTS, SRX platform is dedicated for SRX and STS platform is dedicated for STS but all 3 use the Sigma platform architecture. Do you understand now or not?

    So...based on your own words, they couldn't share platforms based on what I orginally said about the FUTURE RWD Impala being based on the CURRENT CTS platform.

    Where did I say they couldn't share platforms? Again, evidences please. I want to see the exact statement which I said that the RWD Impala and CTS couldn't share platforms. If you can't provide those then what you are doing is to put YOUR words in my mouth.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    :blush: You're right...you didn't say the CTS platform was too small before, however...you JUST said it in your most recent post. However, I do apologize for saying you said it previously...it was El Captain that intially said it.

    Once again, I've said that the RWD Impala can share platform with the CTS but it can't be based on CTS or CTS platform because it is just too small.

    I'm not arguing that certain platforms may be dedicated to certain models. However...why can't GM re-work a CTS platform to work with an Impala??? Or is that what you're saying by saying that the various Caddies are based on the similar architecture? Either way...based or shared, is essentially the same thing. In order for it to be based on, it must share something in common, right?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The platform dedicate for CTS will be too small for a RWD Impala, period.

    Sure GM can re-work a CTS platform to fit a RWD Impala but that doesn't mean the Impala is based on CTS, it just meant that the two are platform mates.

    ES is "based on" Camry
    G8 is "based on" commodore
    Sierra is "based on" Silverado

    Is the Azera based on Sonata since it is built on a stretched Sonata platform? If your answer is yes then I rest my case because that just means your definition for "based on" is different than mine.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    You might want to read through the 4 pages of the PR piece by the Toyota person in the promo story. He pretty well lists the parts that were changed or modified from the previous Camry chassis.

    I only scanned your post because of your tone. Do some research. I'll skip your posts unless they are other than contentious.

    Back to discussing full-sized cars.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Okay...now we have an arguement. If it starts out as a CTS platform and it's reworked to fit the Impala...then it IS based on a CTS platform.

    As stated, the Azera rests on a stretched version of the Sonata platform, since it started out as a Sonata platform and they stretched it to accomodate the Azera...yeah, the Azera is based on a Sonata platform.

    So, I guess...it just boils down to a definition.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    no I said the car was too small -RWD configurations tend to be less space efficient than FWD ones. Based on wheelbase, vehicle length, or width the CTS fits the definition of a 'large car'. When you actually sit in the thing however or more precisely 'sentence' some real full-sized adults to the back seat for example, then you understand why the CTS is too small. The STS, OTH, something a bit different. I haven't seen interior specs. for the Genesis yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if it is a 'smaller' car than the Azera. FWD does have some advantages and 'packaging' is usually one of them.
    BTW that would now be TWO things we've agreed on this week ;)

    In order for it to be based on, it must share something in common, right?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Okay...but what does sitting in the car have to do with the platform being the basis for another car that's larger???

    There are mid-size SUV's that actually use mid-size sedan platforms. The SUV has more size and room in it.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...daggonit...I orginally said CTS PLATFORM!!!

    From post #5257:

    I wouldn't be surprised if the future Impala would be sharing the current Cadillac CTS platform.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Okay, going to jump i here (maybe I shouldn't but oh well). First off aparently the sigma platform cannot be stretched any more than it has been for the STS (which from what I have read is not all that much bigger than the CTS in reality) espically in width, so it may not be a good choice for a full sized Imapla to start with. Secondly the platform is also aparently too expensive to use for a main stream car (I am not sure why, but I know I have read it in at least one of the magazines). Thirdly, if the RWD impala does come, it has alreasdy been stated by GM that it will be built on the Holden platform that is being used by the G8 and will be bult in (I belive) the oshawa ontaion plant that current (or used to) builds the grand prix and it's platfoprm mates, this is the plant that is (was) supposed to be retoolled to manufacture the new Camaro if I recall correctly. At that time the pontiac G8's production is (was) supposed to be moved to the same plant as well. All of this could have change with the apparent annoucement that the car has beeen canceled (which after investing the R&D $ would probably be a mistake on GM's part, but stranger things have happened). I think that GM need to have their two mode hybrid availble in their future full sized RWD cars so that they can meet the CAFE requirement in the long term, but that is just in my opinion.
    Scott
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Scwmcan...I can respect your posting. I mean...based on what you've stated, I can understand the reasons why not, but...intially, it was merely a thought expressed. It has been posted since I originally posted that the future Impala would most likely be based on the G8 platform...makes sense.

    In theory, the CTS platform COULD be used, it just wouldn't be in GM's best interest to do so.

    Thanks for the post.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    your post 5297 said that I had said that the CTS platform was too small - what I think I said, instead was that the car was too small - because in that respect you are absolutely right - you could build Noah's Ark on any given 'platform'
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    I may be nuts.... but, if Chevy needs the Impala in the lineup wouldn't the logical idea be to stretch the Malibu/Aura platform and drop the 3.6 6spd as standard equipment? This would yield the closest thing to an Avalon/Azera in terms of size and performance. I know they won't do it, but just my .02.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    actually what I was thinking of is a Buick Lucerne apparently built over there - with a 4 cylinder engine! And I thought it needed some help with that vintage V6!
    Hasn't GM already started to open Buick plants in China and also built Lucerne/Lacrosse knockoffs in Shanghai? Think the Park Avenue is still available over there as well - that being a Holden. FWIU, Buick is THE car to own over there, but really, a 2 ton Lucerne with a 150hp 4 banger!!!. In any case, can export to the States be far behind ?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...then you were wrong by posting what you posted to begin with as well. I mean...you were wrong, but not wrong. Yes, the CTS itself is small, by my statment referred to the platform. ;)

    I wouldn't be surprised if the future Impala would be sharing the current Cadillac CTS platform.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    I think that is basically the alternative to the RWD platform, GM needs to make up it's mind fast as they have already put money into the RWD replacement, and if they are going to drop that they need the new FWD impala quickly (the current car is not as good an alternative as it could be with an extended epsilon II platform and the 3.6 in it) and they have to stop wasting development resources playing with both alternatives.
    Scott
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    IMO let Pontiac have the G8 RWD performance car and give Chevy a revised FWD. I do agree to spend all that $$ and then drop the RWD is foolish, but this is GM we are talking about here. They should take cues from the other makes and just expand on the Malbu/Aura as they are good vehicles and with the 3.6 powertrain fairly competitive.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

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