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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    My definition of a sports sedan is a sedan which is fast (under 5.8 seconds to 60 mph and at least 150 mph top end), has excellent torque at all speeds, suspension suitable for most driving situations, comfortable, yes comfortable ride (if you want your teeth jarred out of your head while you drive, so be it), is quiet (no louder than 70 db at 70 mph cruising), has a throaty exhaust note, has a skidpad rating of at least 0.80 g, has a braking capability of 70 mph to zero in at least 175 ft. and has a high reliability rating.

    I could care less if it has 4 forward gears. I would rather have four which are smooth and seamless than 5, 6 or 7 which are fraught with problems of driveability.

    As to the issue of FWD, I prefer it in inclement weather which is frequent where I reside. What good is any sedan if you can't ascend snowy hills? If weather were not an issue, RWD is more neutral but certainly not critical.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,671
    A car that can seat 5 or 6 people comfortably and will turn me on when I drive it. The transmission either has to have 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 speeds. The motor needs to have lots of torque at low speeds so you can quickly and smoothly leave a stop sign, toll booth, or an onramp launch with lots of impressive acceleration without a bunch of high speed motor revving like an anemic sewing machine. It needs to have a pleasant ride that doesn't leave one thinking "unhhhh" when you go over little rises in an interstate lane. It should feel like it's responding to turning of the steering wheel but shouldn't feel jittery. The ride shouldn't have you feel every pebble on the pavement surface. You shouldn't hear the tires most of the time.

    My definition is of a mainstream large sedan since that's what the argument discussion is about...

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The Impala SS is very much a sports sedan with its on-demand V-8 engine that works seamlessly, its heavy duty transmission which performs smoothly and without hesitation, and its comfortable suspension that is adequate for most driving situations. Just because it does not fit your definition of a "sports sedan" in no way lessens its virtues.

    I don't think it fits anyones defintion of a sports sedan. A big engine does not a sports sedan make. There are some others such as the Holden, which might be considered a sports sedan. The Impala SS does not fit the definition, which would be a car that follows your every move, using the benchmark 550i as an example. You can get a Subaru STI to 60 in 4.8 seconds and it is much closer to a sports sedan than an Impala. Or the new M3. Admittedly much more expensive than an Impala, but then a picture is worth a thousand words.

    Going 150 does not a sports sedan make.
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    I don't think it fits anyones defintion of a sports sedan.

    What you're saying is that it does not fit YOUR definition.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Nor mine, or any auto enthusiast magazine or article I've ever read. You're certainly entitled to feel differently though.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Either you're weaker than a 6 month old baby, or your car is simply terrible!!! The 263 hp in my Azera does NOT create uncontrollable torque steer.

    Do you make it a habit of jumping on the gas pedal with your hands off the steering wheel. LMAO You're a funny cat.

    With Hyundai creating the Genesis and already having the Azera in the large car sedment, it wouldn't do them any good to market the Sonata as a large car. However, Honda would benefit from it and then the Civic would move up to compete with the Altima and Camry...watch and see.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Hey Joe...THANK YOU for understanding what I've been saying all along on this matter. The numbers are closer than those care to admit or concede to. ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...I wouldn't be one to say that the Impala SS is a sports sedan. I do admit that a true sports sedan SHOULD be RWD. However, my point has been proven that 300+ hp and FWD can successfully coexist. The problem is you guys that are just against it, just can't seem to accept it.

    Hey Louiswei...give it a rest and stop crying wolf. In the real world, how often would you "STOMP" on the gas pedal (with your hands off the wheel), for the torque steer to be a real problem? Under everyday driving conditions, torque steer shouldn't even be an issue...for ANY FWD vehicle with a bit of power to it.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Correct. You also also say you have a car equivalent to a Rolls Royce and no one will be able to discuss the point.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Hey Louiswei...give it a rest and stop crying wolf. In the real world, how often would you "STOMP" on the gas pedal (with your hands off the wheel

    I did that quite often in my 330i. :) Although I would not say I actually sat on my hands.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The 263 hp in my Azera does NOT create uncontrollable torque steer.

    Stomp on the gas with hands off the wheel, then you'll see. I know nobody drives like that but that's the only way to examinate how strong the torque steer is in your car.

    If the torque steer in your 263hp FWD sedan is "controllable" then you are supposed to feel anything. In "uncontrollable" I did not mean for the driver but for the engineers.

    I will put my car key on the table right now and say Accord will never compete outside the family sedan segment and to have the Civic compete with the Altima and Camry is just crazy. The large sedan segment isn't nearly as big or profitable as the midsize and compact segment as where the Accord and Civic are in right now. Why would Honda kill one of its money cows just to have the large sedan segment covered? Doesn't make any business sense at all.

    By the way, with the way gas price has been going lately you can bet your bacon that the large sedan segment and even the midsize sedan segment will continue to shrink. Sooner or later we'll have the Carolla as the number one selling sedan instead of Camry.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    That's just too bad that you don't include some spirited driving into your daily commute once a while...

    If I get to sense torque steer with my latest 150hp Ford Fusion rental then I am pretty sure I couldn't avoid it on other 250hp+ FWD sedans.

    I will give it a rest as long as no one is suggesting that a 300hp+ FWD is a good idea...
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You know why I laugh...I have done exactly that with my Azera and you know what...it's not as terrible as you make it seem. However...anyone that is sensible and knows how to drive...the torque steer on the Azera is hardly a problem.

    Controllable just means that it's something that can be controlled...it has nothing to do with feel.

    Torque steer that is a problem would be the kind that even with your hands on the wheel, it jerks hard to the side when you stomp on the gas. I can stomp on the gas in my Azera and with one hand on the wheel keep the car straight.

    The Accord could move into the large sedan segment and still be the money cow it has always been and will continue to be...by virtue of it being a Honda.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Who said i don't get to experience any spirited driving? ;)

    Torque steer will be present on ANY FWD vehicle by virtue of how it's set up.

    Ummmmmmmmmmmm....a 300 hp FWD vehicle is already in existence and it seems to do just fine.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Accord is selling at around 400k units per year, what's the annual sales figure for the Avalon? One good way to kill the Accord brand is to move it out of its comfort zone and upmarket into the large sedan segment.

    Oh, by the way, if a 300hp+ FWD is such a good idea let's wait and see if the next TL will retain its current FWD setup when it comes with the rumored 300hp.

    If by "doing just fine" you meant the Impala SS then I rest my case...
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Ummmmmmmmmmmm....a 300 hp FWD vehicle is already in existence and it seems to do just fine.

    That wasn't the point. The point IMO, and probably many others, it is not a sports sedan. It's a high powered sporty like sedan.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    That car will have more credibility in my eyes if it has GM's 3.6L DI V6 instead of the pathetic 303hp V8.

    Also, the 4-speed has to go.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Further, in what way does the Polk award mean nothing? Just how is it "obviously contrived and meaningless?"

    ANY AWARD to ANYBODY that is provided by a profit making organization MUST be regarded with a great deal skepticism - especially obvious when it says something equally nebulous like 'owner loyalty award' . Why don't you tell me what that exactly means because it certainly has nothing to do with the quality of automobiles? I can't draw a clearer picture.

    Like CR who, of course, are promulgating their publication out of the goodness of their hearts. LOL
    OK then why don't you tell me about what possible benefit CR would have to diss the Impala ( or anybody or anything else) .? CR financial statements are all available on line BTW, if you can read one you will know exactly where the money comes from (and where the money they make goes) .

    And exactly in what way is the V-8 'rumble" in the SS not "properly applied?"
    I guess you haven' really been following this thread, have you? The Impala should be a better car if GM can figure out a way to get enough Holden production in Australia so that Chevy can do the same thing that Pontiac is doing with the GP, putting it out of its misery and selling instead a more proper G8 GT. The GP BTW took a more aggressive approach (tire sizing) to torque steer control than the ostensibly similar Impala - typical GM 'cheap fix' but even that would indicate that even GM knows its a problem, because the bean counters are not going to allow them to be spending the money they don't have, needlessly....
    Maybe someday the Impala will sell to somebody other than the rental car companies and corporations, GM will make some money on it, and improve it as it deserves. It is an icon of what the 'American' car is - even if it isn't really an American car.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Trust me...if Honda can make the Accord larger and maintain it's FE ratings...sales won't be hurt at all. What does the Avalon have to do with any of this?

    Once again, if you're basing a 300+ hp FWD as a "sport sedan" then no, it's not gonna work...as I've already said a few times already. However...as a touring sedan...it would work just fine.

    Just get over the fact that you've been proven wrong. Sheesh!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    This is one issue I would have to agree with you on. Especially the 4-spd tranny!!!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    The 2009 Sonata has been massaged a bit on the outside. The hard lines have given way to a few curves...now it will truly look like a smaller Azera!!!

    image

    image
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    That's where you were mistaken. Not everyone wants a larger sedan, why the midsize sedan segment is bigger than the large sedan segment is because to many people, Camcordimas are just about the right size for their family hauling needs without being too oversized like cars in this group. By moving Accord upmarket that means the price has to increase as well. You know honest think when Accords are starting out at $26k and topping out at $36k it'll retain the current sales figure?

    What does the Avalon have to do with this? Because if Accord is moving upmarket its main competitor will the be Avalon. Do you think if that's the case Accord will be able to out-sell Avalon 3 to 1?

    Is the Impala SS a touring sedan? Will Nissan makes the next Maxima a touring sedan? Like I said, Nissan will not be able to out-Toyota Toyota so the Maxima is bound to be a failure if they are going to make it an Avalon wannabe. The only way the Maxima can be a success is to make it the sporty king of the segment, with that the FWD is just not going to work (I remember this is how we get into the 300hp+ FWD discussion).

    So again, looks like it's someone else who has been proven wrong (as usual)...
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...to a degree you're right, but also...wrong. There is a segment of folks that would buy a Honda if they offered a larger car. Those folks would be the ones with families and those that don't wanna buy an Odyssey. So...by moving the Accord up they can tap into sales that they are missing.

    As far as the mid-size segment...moving the Civic up to that would take care of that as well. The Accord would hold it's own against the Avalon, simply by it's solid following.

    I would tout the Impala SS as a touring sedan more so than a sports sedan...that's MY opinion.

    How am I proven wrong when a 300+ hp FWD vehicle exists???
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Looks like Genesis, Azera and possibly the Sonata might benefit. I certainly see the biggest benefit would be to the Genesis. A RWD based AWD system would prove pretty nice and put it up there with the GS in terms of handling capabilities in incliment weather.

    Hyundai & Kia Planning AWD cars
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    How large is that segment? 1000 people a month? Trust me, now a days if people really want a dedicated people hauler they'll go with a crossover or minivan and Honda happened to have both of the segments covered well with the Pilot and Odyssey. The family sedan segment currently is the hottest for a reason, cars in that groups offer enough space, good power (V6s), decent fuel economy (I4s) without being too oversized and break the bank.

    Again, you haven't answer my question. Do you honestly think Accord will retain it's current sales figure when it goes from $26k to $36k?

    If Honda moves the Civic upmarket then who's going to fill the compact sedan segment (the next hottest thing). Fit you say, okay, then who's going to fill the sub-compact segment (the fast growing segment)? So either way Honda will need a new model, if that's the case why not leave everyone in their comfort zone and if Honda really wants a large sedan (which I doubt it) then they can add a model at the top.

    You are proven wrong that a FWD 300hp+ Maxima is not a good idea (which is the origin of this whole discussion).
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Not true...I'll take a large sedan over a mini-van, cross over or SUV.

    With all the cars that Honda has...they can make it work...trust me.

    Ahhhhhhhhhhhh...how am I proven wrong about a 300+ hp Max? Does one exist? Has one been tried? Have you driven one to know? Oh...didn't think so. NEXT!!! :P
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    "There is a segment of folks that would buy a Honda if they offered a larger car"

    Add me to that list, I have always wanted Honda to offer a competitor to the Avalon.

    P.S. been away on business and enjoyed catching up on this board. You guys have been busy. I was driving a Chevy Impala as a rental..... let's just say I was happy to get back into my Av :)

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Opinion - given the fact that we have a generation of drivers that have not had any (or limited) exposure to RWD, and the mfgrs.( at 300hp or more) are invariably going to have to make a switch to RWD layouts:
    RWD profits the most from AWD mods and 'safety' systems such as traction control and/or stability control are more valuable to RWD layouts than FWD. In my mind, it will be interesting to see if the 'average' driver can make the switch.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Captain...you actually have an opinion I would greatly agree with. Which is why...a lot of manufacturers are coming up with AWD offerings.

    Just like AWD benefitted the Lexus GS line, I think it would also bolster the Genesis as well.

    Even though we were exposed to RWD, the cars we drove then didn't have the power of today's offerings. While we would have experience on our side, I think we would have some issues just with the power side of things.

    A buddy of mine, who was interested in the Genesis, had the opportunity of renting a 300 while his Azera was in the shop being painted. He had the opportunity to drive the 300 on slushy covered roads and had a few experiences that left him leery of a RWD vehicle at this point.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    What a shame - the Sonata was the best looking car Hyndai had. The Bulbous Azera and Elantra don't appeal to me at all - and now Hyundai's Buicked this one up, unfortunately. It is amazing how such small changes can take my opinion of the car's styling and make my opinion change 180 degrees.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    To each their own.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I am still warming up to the exterior minor facelift, but real-life it looks better than what the photo seem to indicate.

    What's under the hood should be praised. The 2.4L 4 cyclinder now gets 175hp and best fuel economy in the class; 3.3L V6 now gets 249hp with fuel economy in the top 2 I believe (maybe also first). The Azera will get second generation of the Lambda V6 family when it is due for facelift, and as promised and delivered, higher power + increased fuel efficiency.

    The interior (major) revision is a welcomed addition, argubly one of the best in the class:

    image
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Captain...you actually have an opinion I would greatly agree with
    Call Ripley's ;)
    I believe the point of any manufacturer offering the AWD only has to do with sales and however mistakenly the car buyers are assumming AWD to be a desirable feature. Personally, I think it is generally a waste of money for carbuyers in perhaps 90% of this country.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    LOL Hey...we can't disagree on EVERYTHING!!!

    Well...as we have already debated, it's a feature than can assist many with driving during incliment weather. The problem is...AWD provides most drivers with a false sense of security and they feel they can simply dry as they would during dry conditions.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I would be willing to bet that if you did a survey of cars that 'lost control' during really bad driving conditions, a disportionate number of those cars would be AWD or even 4WD. And the fact does remain that in most of this country those conditions rarely, if ever, happen. I live in Texas along with about 20 million other people and not a one of us encounter road conditions where FWD or even prudent use of RWD aren't plenty sufficient - yet it amazes me how many AWD cars/SUVs I see on my way to work- folks wasting some money on whatever they bought IMO and also some rather valuable mpgs.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You are probably right on that fact, but to go even further...the number of those accidents with cars that had AWD were probably driven by folks who had that false sense of security.

    I, personally, have yet to have a problem navigating snow covered streets with my FWD vehicles. We recently added an AWD Outlook to our garage, but that's because we take winter treks up to the mountains...I figured it would come in handy from time to time.
  • keitha3keitha3 Member Posts: 124
    Well, the front wheel/rear wheel drive situation could be easily resolved even in cars with 300+ horsepower.

    If you're worried about torque steer and you have a front wheel drive, simply drive backwards. :P
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I would be willing to bet that if you did a survey of cars that 'lost control' during really bad driving conditions, a disportionate number of those cars would be AWD or even 4WD.

    I would take that bet in a NY second. The fact if one lives in areas of the NE AWD makes it much easier to deal with the weather. While you can make it through the worst of conditions in bald tires, good all seasons with full AWD makes short work of any weather.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    If you're worried about torque steer and you have a front wheel drive, simply drive backwards.

    Yeah, but too bad that the same set of wheels are still doing the pulling (or should I say pushing in this case...) and turning.
  • cdmuilecdmuile Member Posts: 152
    That picture looks suspiciously like worm gear drive. Peugeot used that years ago. I asked an older car guy how worm gear drive worked and he said "It just screws and screws and screws." It seemed to work fine.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    Torque steer that is a problem would be the kind that even with your hands on the wheel, it jerks hard to the side when you stomp on the gas.
    My Azera does just that, it's not uncontrollable, but one better be paying attention. The worst situation occurs when pulling out to pass at 35-45 MPH - when the downshifts are complete, the car pulls hard to the right toward the vehicle being passed. Our roads around here are terrible, with deep truck grooves on rural two lanes, and maybe that added to the problem, but nonetheless, it is disconcerting.
    I've driven hi -perf RWD cars since before you were born and can handle it, but drivers unfamiliar with that kind of power coupled with FWD could be unpleasantly surprised ( like my wife ).
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    I read somewhere that the replacement Impala, 2010 or 2011, will be RWD. It will reportedly based on a worldwide RWD platform. With the new Malibu being what appears to be a very good offering in the FWD mid/large car segment, the FWD Impala begins to be somewhat redundant.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    It'll need more than one reverse gear, but it's refreshing to finally read an intelligent post.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,942
    "the FWD Impala begins to be somewhat redundant. "

    Why? Nissan has FWD Max/Alt and Toyota has FWD Av/Cam they seem to be doing just fine. I think the FWD Impala may even stay around a little while after a RWD model is introduced because of its fleet sales.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Kdshapiro...you are right in the respect that AWD and good all season tires can truly be of great assistance during bad weather. However...we are talking about those drivers that get that false sense of security and drive their AWD equipped vehicles in bad weather as if they were driving on dry roads.

    I've seen a great deal of AWD and 4WD vehicles in ditches simply because those drivers are bit over-confident. Ice is not prejudice and if all 4 wheels should end up on ice at the same time...AWD nor traction control will help you. Same thing with hydroplaning...if all 4 tires are hydroplaning...well, again...AWD nor 4WD would matter.

    For those that drive armed with patience and common sense...you're right, they can make short work of any snowy, icy or rainy condition in an AWD equipped vehicle.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I wouldn't be surprised if the future Impala would be sharing the current Cadillac CTS platform.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You know...it may not be the torque steer moving your car, it could be roads. I've down shifted and passed cars a many speeds and never had an issue with the car pulling to either side.

    Just for giggles, I took louiswei's challenge and took my hands off the wheel (wheels pointed straight) and stomped on the gas. Funny thing happened...my car pulled straight ahead and my steering wheel didn't turn one way or the other. Next time, I'll record it on video to prove it. I had to do it a few times just to make sure it wasn't a fluke or something.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    In general I notice all types of cars banged up: in dividers, on curbs, into one another. Two different notable crashes in the last winter were a Honda Accord and Sonota. Both ended up in places I could not imagine how they got there. AWD they didn't have and it wouldn't have likely helped them due to icy conditions. People who drive without a care in the world in extremely bad weather, are extremely bad drivers. They would rack up any vehicle.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I read somewhere that the replacement Impala, 2010 or 2011, will be RWD
    also read the same thing - when the car becomes available FWIU is largely dependent on plant capacity down under. The G8 is being built there already but they are projecting enough demand that there apparently will be a limited no. of G8s shipped over here. The Impala would obviously figure to sell more cars and I guess the question really boils down to how GM will be able to produce them given that they don't have a whole bunch of money to be out building new or converting older plants.
    I agree on the redundancy of the current Impala, although it is plenty big in exterior dimension it is not very space efficient interior wise. If it is a Chevy you want, then the Malibu with the more competitive 3.6HF V6 seems like a better choice. The Taurus and Avalon have interiors that blow it away space wise, as I believe a few of the newer 'midsize' entrants do as well.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    CTS is too small for anything called an Impala, STS maybe, but I would find it difficult to believe that GM would allow Chevy to share much with Cadillac. Think the new Impala will essentially be a Pontiac G8 from Australia
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