Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

thegraduate

I was actually pretty surprised to see they had put the Sonata's V6 in the bottom-line model. Maybe some people were wanting better economy? Or was it just to lower the entry price for an Azera?

allmet33

I think it was an attempt at both, but with the 3.3 pulling more weight, fuel economy doesn't really improve any. On the other hand, it does make the Azera affordable to some that can afford a top end Sonata.

tjc78

According to Edmunds there is only a $300 difference between a base GLS and the SE. What is the point of giving up the extra power (with very small FE gain) for that small a difference? OTOH is the base price of the SE something that will never be seen because of how they are equipped on the dealer lots?

vic10

And this is also old: Mercedes is a German Chevrolet (or Pontiac or Buick etc.) BMW is a German Ford. You're paying for the cache. And you'll continue paying with higher maintenance. Style? Well, there's that gawd-awful bustle back of the BMW. And need I say "i-drive"??

allmet33

Honestly....I really don't see an advantage to it. If anything...they really could have just made two trim levels. The SE could have been the one with the 3.3 and offer it in cloth only but with the option of the 3.3 or the 3.6 and then keep the Limited as is.

You pay an extra $300 to get pretty much the same car, but with 29 more hp.

I really don't see the GLS being a big seller between the 3 trims available.

Honestly, one move that would be HIGHLY intriguing...make a sport tuned version of the Sonata and offer it with the 3.8 V-6 that's in the Azera!!! THAT...would be a hot move by Hyundai!!!

louiswei

MB is a German Chevy and BMW is a German Ford ONLY IF YOU ARE IN GERMANY. Even the stripped down German domestic models still share the same platforms and powertrains as the upscale models we are getting here. At the end of the day if the REAL Chevy and Ford here are building equal cars as the German Chevy and Ford then why would people pay the premium for BMW and MB?

Also, why can't the REAL Chevy and Ford achieve the same status as the German Chevy and Ford in the foreign markets?

vic10

"...why would people pay the premium for BMW and MB?"

Just the question I've been trying to figure out for the 40 years I've been driving. Probably the same reason why many people would pay extra for French wine when California wines are as good if not better. I think the price jump for the BMW & MB cars came when we stopped calling them "foreign" and started referring to them as "imported".

Another question: In the late 1990's, the "non-US" manufacturers were coming out with information/navigation screens which performed a variety of functions. The auto mags labeled them "advanced", "hi-tech", "wave of the future". In the mid 1980's Buick had their touch screen dash in the Riviera. Did a lot of what i-Drive does without the "mouse ball" (and of course without navigation). The auto mags referred to it as "a gimmick", "a distraction", "not practical to use". The difference? Imported vs GM. Not the right cache.

Why can't U.S. cars achieve status in foreign markets? Well, for the longest time they were too big and too thirsty to be anywhere near practical. Besides, ever get into a conversation with a Frenchman or German or Italian and try to convince them that their whatever isn't as good as one made in another country? Ever want to see a war started?

joe97

The SE trim is being discontinued for the 2008 model year.

http://www.hyundainews.com/Media_Kits/2008_Models/Azera/Press_Release.asp

allmet33

Okay...NOW, I'm truly impressed. It's obvious Hyundai has been listening to the complaints. For 2008, they're addressing the suspension (can't wait to see if it's improved) and including an in-dash nav. unit by LG.

So..with them doing away with the SE, the GLS has an option for leather, and the 3.3 V-6 will be exclusive to the GLS as the 3.8 will be exclusive to the Limited. The scary thing about that is that the fuel economy is almost identical for both powerplants. They were better off just keeping the 3.8 amongst all trim levels.

Hyundai may have finally been listening, but clearly not thinking...IMO.

P.S. I see they are still splitting hairs on the speaker count (counting coaxial speakers as separates). Technically speaking, the car would have 10 speakers.

tjc78

This all makes sense now. Nice to see that they have NAV available to those that want it.

"They were better off just keeping the 3.8 amongst all trim levels"

Little cost cutting perhaps....

allmet33

Is it really though??? With the removal of the SE trim line (which it was pointed out there was only a $300 difference between GLS and SE) I'm sure the GLS now will assume the pricing of the SE.

So, again I ask...is it really worth the move??? I guess it gives those of us that own the Limited some exclusivity in that you can only get the 3.8 if you buy a Limited. However, those in a GLS can laugh at the fact that they are a little slower 0-60 (29 less hp), get the same mileage and pretty much the same car, save for the navigation and a few other amenities.

scbob

In Greenville SC, BMW means Bubba Makes Wheels
I considered both BMW and MB, but their reliability ratings are terrible. Also, you have to get so many options/packages just to get the standard items on Acura, Infiniti, Azera and Avalon that the prices really skyrocket.
Regardless of free service and warranty, if you have to take it back again and again, it's a pain.
Had a Saab Turbo with 36 trips to dealer for warranty work. Also, car out of service for one week at one point. Didn't pay anything, but what a hassle!

colloquor

One of my friends has a BMW 850 - just spent over $15K on some maintenance (new ball joints and rack, brakes, some minor engine work, etc.). Decided he liked this car too much to sell it or trade it in, so he dropped some more money into it. Nice car, I've driven it, and it's worth the extra bucks invested since he originally bought it new.

I've had two Classic SAABs, neither a Turbo, and still have one as a daily driver - a 1985 SAAB 900. Currently at only 205K miles since purchase in April '85, and nothing other than normal preventive maintenance to the engine - and, still on the original 5-speed transmission with only one clutch replacement. I do all of the mechanical work myself, and buy all parts from thesaabsite.com - helps keep the maintenance costs very low. Still drives like the day I drove it off the SAAB dealer's lot. It's part of the family, but I'm itching to finally make a change!

tjc78

I never really understood putting 2 engines in a car with really similar HP. Can't they just cost average the 2 trim levels and pull a few amenities to simplify the assembly line? I am sure its not quite that simple, but it would be nice. I guess they figure an engine upgrade is the easiest way to get people to spend more money. I know it would be for me, for example, I have an Av XLS if the Limited had a bigger engine I know I would have sprung the extra few bucks for it.

101649

Just to clarify, the abs, traction control, stability control, etc are not STANDARD on the Impala...They are all OPTIONS...If this is the top of the line Chevy large sedan, I would expect these to be standard and more than just 4 airbags....As stated before, only the SS model will get these "options" as standard NEXT year....It's still a fleet and cop car...

allmet33

You now...if it was a clear difference, like the Chrysler 300 for instance...

The base model gets a 2.7 V-6 putting out 190 hp (stop laughing). The next model up (touring) gets the 3.5 V-6 putting out 250 hp. There's a clear and significant difference there. Then when you jump up to the 300C with the hemi V-8 it's another clear jump up to 325 hp.

In my opinion, Hyundai should have just kept the 3.8 in all trim levels and differentiated the way they have been all along. What would really be sweet is an upgrade to AWD being offered on an Azera.

thegraduate

Then when you jump up to the 300C with the hemi V-8 it's another clear jump up to 325 hp.

Did Chrysler lower it from 340 hp, or is this with the new SAE testing standards?

allmet33

My bad, mistatement on my part. However, the jump to the V-8 really isn't important in what I'm pointing out though. Thanks for the catch! :blush:

dborth

"I have an Av XLS if the Limited had a bigger engine I know I would have sprung the extra few bucks for it".

You can't be serious. Nothing added to the Av is "a few extra bucks".

cobrazera

Just to clarify, it is next year already, and the 2LT ( midlevel of five versions ) Impala and up, including the SS: get ABS, Traction Control, and Stability Control as standard equipment. Check out the GM website. Still no curtain airbags for the backseat, though.
As far as it being a cop car, the Dodge Charger seems to be taking over that role.

allmet33

Slowly, but surely...the Charger is taking over as the new cop car. However...just like the Crown Vics and Caprices...the Impala is forever doomed to be like them. Eventually, the Charger will be thrown in with that group, but at least of all of them...the Charger is the best looking & performing cop car to date (outside of the Camaro, Vette's and Mustangs that some jurisdictions have).

tjc78

"the Impala is forever doomed to be like them"

What's funny is if the Impala goes RWD it will most certainly achieve "cop car" status probably fairly quickly. In my neck of the woods, I still see mostly Crown Vics and Expeditions except over the bridge in Philly where the Charger seems to creeping up a lot. The Charger actually makes a cool looking cop car... unless it is behind you with it's lights on :surprise:

allmet33

It doesn't have to wait to go to RWD to achieve cop car status, it already has!!! It's the car of choice for the local city police forces as well as sheriff's departments (at least in the DC Metro area).

Yeah...the Charger does make a cool lookin cop car (ever seen the movie The Island?).

tjc78

I guess you are right in certain areas I have seen a # of Impalas doing police duty. Anyway, I think we all are a bit tough on the Impala, its not a bad ride. Yes, it isn't an Avalon or Azera but also cheaper (except in SS form). A woman at our office just got an SS in black. I'll have to ask her how she likes it. Something tells me her husband had a lot to do with that purchase!

allmet33

No, it's not the bottom of the barrel. The problem is...you have to get an SS in order for it to be competitive with most of the other ones mentioned in the forum.

A buddy of mine just recently got a 2006 Impala LT. It was what it was...decent transportation. The Impala whether it's LS, LT, LTZ or SS invokes a passion for wanting to drive it to me. There is nothing about that car that makes me want to get in it. I'm sorry, that's just me. It's not that I'm against domestic machinery because I like the Charger, Taurus and Lucerne as they all have a unique look. The one that won me over just happened to be the Azera!

tjc78

The Impala makes me think of my business trips because that is quite often what I end up in for a rental. For awhile I was against domestics but now have realized that the playing field has been leveled a bit. GM is producing much better vehicles than in the past and Ford has cleaned up their act a bit. Chrysler is a train wreck IMO and if it weren't for the 300 and Charger would be in even more trouble.

I have 18 months to go on my Avalon lease. Next time I shop I think I will have a tougher time picking a vehicle. I love my Avalon, but in '09 it is likely to be the same basic car I have now. Lots of vehicles on the horizon in my price range (redesigned Impala, G8, Genesis) nice to have choices.

allmet33

Well...if you think about it, the domestic companies have opened their doors to bringing the minds and pens (designers) behind foreign designs into their houses. The 300 was definitely a fresh idea on a retro look, it was a can't miss move on their part. Now the doors have been opened to re-working older designs. Thus, the Charger, upcoming Challenger & Camaro. Then you have the Ford has a couple of re-workings on slate to go along with the Mustang and the GTO. The designs are getting much better!!!

Anyway, none of those are listed in this forum, so let me get back in tune here. The G8, re-designed Impala and Genesis are all worthy looking options on paper and in theory. I guess we'll have to patiently wait and see what happens when they are finally offered. Maybe by then, Buick will have dropped a more worthy V-6 powerplant in the Lucerne. Maybe Chysler will see that a 197 hp 2.7 V-6 in the 300 is really a waste of man hours, resources and time. Maybe Hyundai will see the lack of logic in offering the Azera in both a 3.3 & 3.8 variation. Come on...1/2 liter??? It could be different if there was a greater gain on fuel economy by making such a move, but that can't even be said.

tjc78

Does the Azera and Sonata share a common platform? Just makes no apparent sense otherwise to put the 3.3 motor in the Azera. The only thing I can think of it has a significantly lower cost of production due to being in the higher volume Sonata. I just hope Hyundai isn't taking a page out of the Detroit 3's playbook.

" Maybe by then, Buick will have dropped a more worthy V-6 powerplant in the Lucerne"

I would think that the next gen Lucerne will be a varient of the RWD platform from the G8 and new Impala. They can't possibly put the 3.8 4 speed in those.

allmet33

From my understanding, the Sonata and Azera do not share the same platform. Is using that engine would cut costs signigicantly, I would think they would have slated it to be in in the Azera period and just tune to produce more hp than the version in the Sonata.

The Lucerne would be served greatly if GM used the same engine V-6 that's in the Saturn Aura. Very capable engine and I'm sure it could be tuned to work more efficiently with the larger Lucerne.

tjc78

"The Lucerne would be served greatly if GM used the same engine V-6 that's in the Saturn Aura. Very capable engine and I'm sure it could be tuned to work more efficiently with the larger Lucerne."

I know it sounds weird, but I really think Buick soldiers on with the 3800 for the Buick loyalists. Whenever I knock the 3800 people really defend it. In my own family I have a few that don't want to drive anything else. I can't tell them anything about the newer tech engines. As for the Lucerne for every 5 I see 4 are the 3800. I guess the guys at Buick want to cater to a certain audience with the Lucerne, which, IMO is previous LeSabre, and Park Av owners. Instead of people like us who just want a large car with power and economy.