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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    as a fellow Nissan fan- this is somewhat disappointing to me - expected more. No comments about the CVT being possibly the only tranny. 270 or 280 hp though should make it the quickest car in this group reassumming a 'throne' it has long held. Wonder if the engine is actually the VQ35 or the 'new' 3.7. The size and HP increases are a fact of life these days.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    LOL Nothing like that Avalon-esque rendering posted a bit earlier. Considering it's a bit bigger than the current Max, boosting it up to 270 wouldn't make any faster than it already is. Again, it depends on how much weight is added by making it larger, plus the little extra weight if they go with the 3.7 (which would only seem right since the Altima has the 3.5. However, the new Max...still look like it's little brother.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    Allmet,
    Azera also looks like sonata and in fact shares engine with it
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    However...there are distint size differences between the Sonata and Azera AND...the Sonata does not have an engine that's actually more powerful than that in the Azera. The Azera that shares the engine with the Sonata is the entry level Azera GLS and you hardly get the frills of a Limited. You can get a base Altima 3.5 and have more power than a Max. LOL

    The similaries between the Sonata and Azera are less than those between the Altima and Max.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    From Nissan's recent history, they use Altima with more powerful engine, until, in few years new Maxima appears. 2002- New Altima 240 hp, 2004 New Maxima 265hp....
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    New Altima with 240 hp???? The current 3.5 is kicking out 270 hp...why would it drop??? Not unless you mean the 2.5 will be kicking out 240 hp.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You know, Captain...after thinking about it, it doesn't make sense for Nissan to only up the power in the new Max to 270 or 280...if anything, I see them pushing it closer to 300, if not putting it at 300. I say this because of the trend Nissan started when they rolled out the redesigned Altima in 2002 with 240 hp. At that time, they sort of set the standard for mid-size V-6 sedans. Honestly, I think Nissan will be making a statement with the new Max. Just my opinion on it.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    I said in 2002 then New Altima.....
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ummmmmmm...okay, and how long did that last with no upgrade to the Maxima? The point is...they moved forward on the Altima and left the Maxima behind.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I see them pushing it closer to 300
    why - while they certainly have the ability to do that (because they already are) but 300hp to a FWD sedan is a difficult proposition ( as shown by things like the Impala SS etc.) . A reminder that the Avalon is a physically larger car than either the current Maxima or the Azera, and is still the quickest of the bunch - it doesn't necessarily follow that a new Maxima perhaps the size of the Avalon, needs to weigh substantially more. Therefore, if the current Max with 255hp is right on the Avalon's bumper, 270 or 280 should push (pull) it past even the Avalon. I think we have gotten to a point (HP in the mid-high 200s) that FWD becomes less and less viable in any case and very few people are going to be worrying about a few tenths of a second either way on cars that are this powerful. They are much more likely to be worried about a few tenths of a mpg, if anything. It would surprise me however, if the planned Max diesel is FWD simply because of the high torque numbers likely involved.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Azera looks like a Sonata? Oh man I just fell out of my chair...
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    With the technology that's out and upcoming. I do see them having the ability to create a 300 hp FWD vehicle. I mean...why is 300 the magic #? Why is it that you can creep close to it, but not exceed it? Have you ever watched the Speed Channel and seen 450 hp Honda Civics being raced?

    The problem with the Maxima pulling ahead is that it's not clear how much weight the larger size and larger engine will add to the vehicle. Will it be enough weight that pretty much keeps it on pace with where the current Max is in terms of acceleration...we don't know that yet.

    Whether you get a car with 300 hp in FWD or RWD...a few tenths MPG won't be an issue. I mean...you've already said that having a RWD vehicle actually hurts FE because of the added weight of the RWD components and something about extra friction to get the power to the ground (or something like that). Well...wouldn't that mean a FWD with 300 hp would be more effecient???
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    With the horsepower war continue to go on it is just not practical to have a FWD, 300hp+ "sports sedan" that Nissan intended to make Maxima what it is. On the other hand, it's too tall of an order for Nissan to "out-Toyota" against Toyota (just ask Mazda and Nissan in the late 90s) so Maxmia being a luxury cruiser like the Avalon is just not going to work.

    Nissan should either:

    1. make the Maxima RWD with 330hp 3.7 and lots of luxury features (pretty much a Genesis fighter).

    or

    2. drop the model completely since with FWD and ~300hp it's pretty much a non-factor with the Altima also in the lineup.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    The main question is why??? Whose to say that you can't have a FWD 300 hp car???

    It's clear that the Maxima won't be a RWD vehicle. However, only giving it 5 or 10 more hp than the Altima doesn't make sense. Other than it being slightly larger, you're pretty much in the same situation as you're currently in with it.

    If you drop the model completely, then Nissan doesn't have a large car to offer.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    they do . They can offer actually 3 versions of Infinity M 3.5, 3.5 DI and 5.5. This way they can serve more customers with 1 vehicle. They are planning on 2.5l G
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    No...now you're talking an Infinity. Even though it's made by Nissan...it's not approachable to those that normally would get a Maxima.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Whose to say that you can't have a FWD 300 hp car???

    Two words: torque steer.

    A FWD 300hp "sports sedan"? Yeah right...

    If you drop the model completely, then Nissan doesn't have a large car to offer.

    Seems to me Honda is doing just fine without a large car...
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Really...so torque steer would be something uncontrollable with another 30 hp, right?

    Who said anything about it being a "sports sedan"? Just because it has 300 hp, doesn't mean it has to be a "sports sedan".

    Honda will eventually move the Accord into the large car segment...merely by evolution. However, Honda's mantra is the FE King of the auto industry...large cars don't help them in that area.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    well heck why not just use an aftermarket supercharger on your Azera - who's to say you can't have a 400hp FWD car (albeit with an engine that might last 10000 miles.) I guess by your way of thinking an 'instant' sports sedan because it'll get to 60 in maybe 5 seconds or so? HP, by itself, does not a sports sedan make. Traffic light 'drag racers' maybe, REAL cars not a chance - the value of any given automobile is a lot more than its HP/wght. ratio.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    What I was trying to say is, at around 250hp, torque steer in a FWD car is already uncontrollable so nevertheless at over 300hp. I've never driven the current Maxima before but I heard it's a torque steer monster. However, I did test drive the 286hp TL-S once and even with the torque steer reduce mechanism that it deploys, the affect is still very obvious.

    Sports sedan or not, with around 300hp, torque steer in a FWD Maxima will no doubt to be nasty.

    So what if the Accord will eventually move into the large car segment but Honda will still slot it in the "family sedan segment" with the rest like Camry, Altima and Sonata. Actually according to EPA, the current Sonata is also a "large car", do you see Hyundai to market it against Avalon, Impala and Maxima?

    Honda's mantra is the FE king but Nissan's mantra is "sporty" that's why I said there is no way Nissan can out-Toyota Toyota with the Maxima.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Captain...you're just too doggone funny!!! If a company designs an engine for that, it would be able to handle it. I may just do the supercharger when I start the mods on it. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

    I...my friend...was the one that just said just because it has 300 hp, doesn't make it a sports sedan.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Here's a test for allmet33 to conduct at his leisure...

    Go test drive the following 3 cars with hands off the steering wheel and step hard on the gas padel. Make sure you are at an open area and no other cars around.

    1. Your Azera
    2. Nissan Maxima
    3. Any 300hp+ RWD sedans like the IS350, 335i, G35 and etc...

    Let us know afterward if you still think 300hp+ FWD car is a good idea.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    If torque steer is THAT much of an issue, then why even approach 300 hp with a FWD car?

    However, the test you suggest is quite ridiculous...nobody, and I stress NOBODY should or would mash on the gas pedal of ANY car with their hands off the steering wheel.

    I still think, with today's technology...a 300 hp FWD vehicle can work. ;)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I think that's exactly our point - and if that technology to cure the 'problem' involves some computer programs to limit throttle (as it does on the TL-S) or a computer program that shifts trannies to higher gears - then WHY BOTHER- make the car RWD in the first place and 'avoid' the issue altogether. The 2009 Maxima if it is going to have 300hp would therefore need to be a decontented M35 (a great car in its own right that sells in the 40s) and something that would sell like hotcakes in the 30s. You would have to wonder why would Nissan do that though, all they would be doing is robbing some higher profit Infiniti sales. The Infiniti Ms and Gs sell extremely well on their own and have no problem with residual values either.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    If the desire is to make a "sports sedan" then I agree. However...highway cruisers and touring sedans could easily work.

    You see...everything you're saying makes perfect sense if you're goal is maximum performance...and on that point, I do agree.

    As far as Infiniti selling a stripped down M for the $30K's just to make up for Nissan dropping the Max...I don't see it happening.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    no actually I meant selling it as a Nissan not an Infiniti, the 'Nissan' name a bit of a different market perception and easier to sell IMO than a 290hp V6 Genesis. Sorry, the post was confusing :confuse:
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The test is not ridiculous, granted that nobody would stomp the gas with hands off the steering wheel but the point of the test is to let you see the difference between the high horsepower FWD and RWD cars.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    This stat certainly surprised me but nevertheless attributed to the improvement of the brand:

    Retained Value
    Edmunds' TMV® calculator values the Azera at $21,838 after 18,530 miles. This equates to 27 percent depreciation from its original MSRP and ranks it just behind its competitors in resale worth.

    Our Toyota Camry depreciated by a similar 26 percent margin at the conclusion of its long-term test, although it had an additional 3,000 miles on the odometer.

    True Market Value at service end: $21,838
    Depreciation: $7,932 or 27 percent of original MSRP
    Final Odometer Reading: 18,530


    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/LongTerm/articleId=118914/pageNumber- =2
  • wesleygwesleyg Member Posts: 164
    I follow this column as a lurker and I don't want to debate "sport sedans" with anyone but you state "a 300 HP FWD vehicle can work." It certainly can, I drive one every day, Impala SS, and while I make absolutely no claims as to it being a "sports sedan", the torque steer is very manageable as long as you know its there.

    I'm an old-timer, owned a '66 Chevy SS, 427 tri-power when it was brand new and many other big-blocks, the FWD is certainly different entirely in its handling characteristics but it is driveable and fast, would I go back to the sixties if I could? No way.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    That is TMV not real world. TMV is certainly useful for normalizing some of this information, but that's where it ends. Based on misalignments and carpet wear and the like and not knowing all the details I went to kbb.com and put in a 2007 Azera with 19000 miles in fair condition in 90210. Highest trim level. Private party value was a tad over $17,000. Excellent condition, $20.8K Trade in value: $17,150 excellent condition. Dealer gives you about $3K less.

    While I don't know if everything was entered 100%, there certainly is a few thousand dollars discrepancy between kbb and edmunds. I think edmunds is optimistic, although if I were in the market for a used Azera I would certainly negotiate from the lowest number up.

    I then put in the same generic responses for the Avalon, choosing the highest level trim. The number that came back for private party sale was: $22.2 fair condition, $26K excellent conditions. For trade in: dealer gives you about $3.5K less.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I didn't go feature by feature but the Azera limited checks in at a MSRP of $28,030, per KBB, while the Avalon limited runs for $34,725. The raw upfront cost (MSRP) difference is 6,695.

    So,

    Azera: 20,800 / 28,030 = 74.21% retained value
    Avalon: 26,000 / 34,725 = 74.87% retained value

    25.79% depreciation for the Azera vs. 25.13% for the Avalon
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    retained value or residual percentages mean nothing, it is still gross dollars out of pocket, the more you talk about it maybe the more you will understand it.

    There is something else at work here - car desirability and how that might effect how close you might get to anybody's value estimates.
    IT goes like this - If I'm out trading in an Avalon on a more premium brand car. the used car dept. is all over themselves to get it and will likely put the car in the front row of the lot - it effects the REAL value they allow on the car which is usually not close to Edmunds TMV or kbb etc.. Drive in with an Azera, this is NOT likely the case - they'll probably wholesale it off to a Hyundai dealer or something, thereby reducing its value - substantially. WHY - because folks out shopping the more premium brands likely have no interest in Korean cars but might consider a 'Japanese' one.They will have a bunch more trouble selling that Hyundai off a BMW lot (for example) than they do off a Hyundai lot.
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    300hp to a FWD sedan is a difficult proposition ( as shown by things like the Impala SS

    Indeed? Do you own one?

    I have an SS with 303 HP and it drives just fine. There is NO torque steer unless I accelerate like a maniac and even then it is rather unimpressive.

    Why must people continually exaggerate the torque steer in the SS with its wonderful V-8 engine??! What other full size car will give you 0-60 times of 5.6 sec and a top end of 154 mph and at a price which is not at all unreasonable?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I have an SS with 303 HP and it drives just fine. There is NO torque steer unless I accelerate like a maniac and even then it is rather unimpressive.

    Why must people continually exaggerate the torque steer in the SS with its wonderful V-8 engine??! What other full size car will give you 0-60 times of 5.6 sec and a top end of 154 mph and at a price which is not at all unreasonable?


    I'm curious, if you don't accelerate like a maniac, why would you want a family car that goes over 150 MPH and goes 0-60 in less than 6 seconds?
  • wesleygwesleyg Member Posts: 164
    fair question: this was not directed to me but if I may express my opinion, as in my post yesterday, I said I grew up driving high performance cars and I really enjoy their capability.

    Occasionally I can utilize the performance, mostly I can not due to traffic conditions, but I still have it. That same mentally must exist for those that purchase a 100K plus vehicle to drive daily, surely they don't "need" it but they want it. Good enough reason for me. Someday I may be forced into trundling around in a 4 cylinder, but until then I choose not to..
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Thanks but I am talking about the signs which seem to be pointing to the improvement of the brand, in terms of depreciation and resale value, which is reality..
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    For my purposes it is less a "family car" than a high performance sports sedan. See wesleyg's comments for further particulars. There are still those of us who prefer honkin' V-8's to wheezy 4 cyls.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    the SS with its wonderful V-8 engine??! What other full size car will give you 0-60 times of 5.6 sec and a top end of 154 mph and at a price which is not at all unreasonable?

    For the same reason you don't drink Merlot with sand dabs. A Chevy 300hp V8 with FWD? A bizarre combination no other manufacturer has bothered with. Not Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Ford or Chrysler. The Germans would sneer at the thought of it.

    How odd now, that even Hyundai (Genesis) has figured it out.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I don't care for wheezy 4-cylinder cars either. With a power/liter ratio that is 12 horses higher than the Impala, my 4-cylinder is not a wheezer at all! ;)

    And, personally, the Impala is too softly sprung and saddled with only a 4-speed - hardly a sports sedan. A high-speed touring car in my opinion (and a good looking one in black!).
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    How odd now, that even Hyundai (Genesis) has figured it out
    I guess by this you mean that even Hyundai has discovered that it does create some problems, (High HP- FWD) and therefore even the Koreans know NOT to do it. The Germans, I would suggest, that while they obviously understand the implications of the the same wheels doing the 'pulling' and the steering, it may also have something to do with the front biased weight distributions inherent in any FWD car.
    The Impala SS - a sports sedan - hilarious - why just because it's overpowered? By that definition then the Avalon/Maxima/Azera must also be 'sports sedans' because they too are 'overpowered'. Yet another ridiculous contention. 154 mph in an Impala ( or any of these cars) - maybe if you have a death wish!
    The only reason that the Impala SS even exists is because it seems that GM (in this case) only gets 'competitive' HP by using those big ole antiquated gas hog V8s instead of a wheezy selection of pushrod V6s. Topping this all off, of course, is CRs recent nomination of the Impala V8 as its worst of the worst. No matter though, the car will be replaced soon - by its Australian brethren - and that will be properly RWD for the 350hp or so that it is due to have.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    I guess by this you mean that even Hyundai has discovered that it does create some problems, (High HP- FWD) and therefore even the Koreans know NOT to do it

    Correct.
  • carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    Based on the ads I see, is there any car that has NOT received some kind of JD Power award?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Exactly, if you have money left in your advertising budget and are willing to spend it to be able photograph a trophy with your car in the background - zap - you have an award - and if they don't have a category for it, they'll seemingly make one. 2 or 3 years ago, the Koreans seemd to dominate the Initial Satisfaction and Initial Quality categories, lately it has been Ford.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    1. Anyone who thinks the Impalas SS is a sports sedan doesn't have a slightest idea of what is a sports sedan nor has driven one in the past.

    2. Anyone who thinks a FWD with 300hp+ is a good idea has neither tried a RWD/AWD 300hp+ sports sedan nor has really stomped on the gas before.

    :shades:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the thing about the AWD is that it is not necessarily a solution to anything - many of these 'AWD' cars are simply FWD cars that will normally send 90% (or more) of that power/torque to the front wheels anyway and only send a portion of it rearward (maybe 50%) in the event of loss of traction. Systems like this do very little for normal driveability, add some unneeded pounds, burn some unnecessary fuel, and generally also does nothing to correct that 60-40 weight imbalance (which creates that heavy understeer condition) that most of us that drive FWD live with.
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    "those big ole antiquated gas hog V8s instead of a wheezy selection of pushrod V6s. Topping this all off, of course, is CRs recent nomination of the Impala V8 as its worst of the worst."

    If you are unable to appreciate the considerable virtues of the American small block V-8 with its delicious exhaust note and gobs of endless torque, you have my sympathies.

    The Chevrolet Impala received the Owner Loyalty Award Winner from R. L. Polk & Company. CR should stick to evaluating toasters for they know precious little about cars.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    actually, I do appreciate a good ole V8 'rumble', the car in this group that properly applies it, the 300C as I would imagine both the G8 and Genesis V8s will when they become available. The RL Polk what? A good example of a store bought invented 'award' that really means nothing. I find it difficult to believe that Chevy would even bother advertising something so obviously contrived and meaningless.
    As far as CR goes, they do certainly have their biases (FE, safety, reliabililty for example) and less on things like burning all the rubber off a set of front tires but nonetheless they are the only organization that I know of that's not in it for the money and likely remain the single most influential publication in this regard, whether you (or I) like it or not.....
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    1. Anyone who thinks the Impalas SS is a sports sedan doesn't have a slightest idea of what is a sports sedan nor has driven one in the past.

    2. Anyone who thinks a FWD with 300hp+ is a good idea has neither tried a RWD/AWD 300hp+ sports sedan nor has really stomped on the gas before.


    Aren't you being just a bit presumptuous?

    The Impala SS is very much a sports sedan with its on-demand V-8 engine that works seamlessly, its heavy duty transmission which performs smoothly and without hesitation, and its comfortable suspension that is adequate for most driving situations. Just because it does not fit your definition of a "sports sedan" in no way lessens its virtues.
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    actually, I do appreciate a good ole V8 'rumble', the car in this group that properly applies it, the 300C as I would imagine both the G8 and Genesis V8s will when they become available.

    And exactly in what way is the V-8 'rumble" in the SS not "properly applied?"

    The RL Polk what? A good example of a store bought invented 'award' that really means nothing. I find it difficult to believe that Chevy would even bother advertising something so obviously contrived and meaningless.

    Further, in what way does the Polk award mean nothing? Just how is it "obviously contrived and meaningless?"

    It seems that you have an ingrained bias against the SS. Like CR who, of course, are promulgating their publication out of the goodness of their hearts. LOL
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Let's see how much of a sports sedan the Impala SS is...

    1. FF setup - FWD is the last thing that a sports sedan wants to be associated with.
    2. V8 with 303hp - There are V6s that can put this V8 to shame power wise and returns better FE.
    3. 4-speed auto tranny - Not even 5-speed?
    4. Comfortable suspension - We are talking about "sports sedan" here right?
    5. 0-60 in 5.6 sec - So what? Why not talking about the slalom numbers, skid pad numbers and front-rear weight distribution as where a real "sports sedan" is defined?

    So what's your definition of sports sedans?
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