so then the FE bonus is really money saved , isn't it? LOL
Actually...no it isn't...the larger that gap, the longer it would take to make up that difference in FE.
However, looking at numbers on Edmunds...they have the Avalon & Azera listed with the same FE. Wow...imagine that, guess that would equate to NO advantage in the FE department.
So, to answer your question...the money saved is on the side of the Azera.
Actually...you take away the 50 lbs the Azera has on the Max or the 19 lbs it has over the Avalon and give it the same hp...the Azera would run neck and neck with both cars. The only department either would trip the Azera up in would be handling...ooops...wait a minute, only the Max would.
At any rate, you made a comment about starting a car up and not hearing the engine running is one sign of refinement (in so many words it was part of what you were saying). If you had driven an Azera, you would have found that to be true of the Hyundai 3.8. It is no louder than either the Avalon's or Max's engine!!!
The softness of the Azera suspension is about the only knock when comparing it to the Avalon and the Max. Even the Motor Trend comparo said the same thing and it really didn't hold it against the Azera, just basically said it was better suited for highway cruising.
If you're thinking in terms of resale value, I've already shown that to be a moot point. The Avalon will be worth more because it costs more to begin with. Now if you look at it from a percentage aspect, it's much, much closer than you think. I mean...look at what you paid for the Avalon and say 2 years down the road, figure how much it's worth...what's the percentage of difference? If you did the same thing with the Azera (for the sake of the arguement, say both cars have identical mileage on them and are in the same condition)...figure the percentage of difference between it's value new and what it's worth after 2 years...I guarantee you...you'll be surprised!
Okay...go back and find the post, I never said I smoked him...I said I beat him. I never said he couldn't see my tail lights. Hell, I could still see him in my rear-view mirror.
for your info, I took the liberty of going back to look at our previous discussion of my Azera beating a TL. I did not used the term "smoked" to describe what happened...I said I "outran" the TL. To clarify...anytime you are in front of someone else in a race...you are "outrunning" them.
I figured that's what took you so long to respond! LOL I don't know how you picked that out of my tone when I never said I flat out left the TL behind or anything like that. One thing you'll realize about me...I'm going to tell you like it is. It serves me no purpose to hype something up that isn't...if it really wasn't.
This event happening within the first few weeks of ownership of my Azera, just really impressed me. I mean...in MY mind...the TL is a good running car and I figured it to have some get up and go. So...wanting to see what my Azera could do...I went for it. Even the TL driver pulled up next to me when we finally did come to a light and mirrored my sentiments by telling me he was impressed too.
That's it...nothing more. I might have explained it differently if I had set out to race and beat a TL or something like that, but nah...it was just something that happned...right time and place, that's all.
it's worse than just that - the Fusion is not available with any kind stability/traction control so therefore is more 'fun' to drive on certain 'tracks' than things like softly sprung Camry XLEs and/or Accord LXs that did, of course, have the SC.
Actually...you take away the 50 lbs the Azera has on the Max or the 19 lbs it has over the Avalon and give it the same hp there you go dreaming again- what about the extra displacement the Hyundai engine needs to put out LESS HP. So lets reduce the Hyundai engine to 3.5 liters and then see if Hyundai can get the same sort of hp. Oops, if they could do that then they might actually have an engine as efficient as the 2GR - wouldn't they?
And yes the Avalon will be worth more because it does indeed cost more - BUT, as long as you get it back at trade-in time it didn't cost more at all - certainly not a 'moot' point. It's the only thinh that matters. Percentages of value mean nothing BTW, it is obviously total dollars out of pocket that we should all be concerned with - if you want to buy a car that holds its value real well on a percentage basis buy a BMW and then you'll understand. You Hyundai freaks seem to focus on how cheap Hyundai HAS TO sell its cars but then conveniently forget how cheap they remain 4 or 5 years down the road.
Wow...you will spin something any way you can to make your point valid, huh?
Why do you have to reduce the engine to 3.5 liters? They obviously can get that kind of HP out of their engines. If I recall...the 3.6 L V-6 that's going in the Genesis will produce 268 and the 3.8 will produce 290...what is your point???
Also...percentages of value mean a lot. Because in the end...the Avalon loses as much value as the Azera does over the same amount of time. So...it's relative to the fact that the Avalon costs more, which equates to being worth more. However...the loss of value is close to being the same.
So..out of pocket savings would be the advantage of the Azera. It cost you less to get it to begin with...remember?
Hyundai freaks aren't "focused on how cheap Hyundai HAS TO sell it's cars but then conveniently forget how cheap they remain 4 or 5 years down the road." We're focused on the value of what we get for our money. It's the Toytoa freaks that have to find ways of justifying spending the extra money by knocking the Hyundai. And get this...make it seem like there's a greater overall savings!!! LOL Face it...with a Hyundai, you get a viable option that's a solid contender in every segment.
Spin! :mad: If you can get out of your own 'I bought a cheap car' nirvana - LOOK IT UP, an 06 Avalon XLS has a $18.7k trade-in value, the 06 Azera Ltd $14.7 (source: kbb.com). That's $4000.00 bucks where I come from - did you actually spend $4k more for the Toyota new - possibly. This is remedial math - I give up on trying to teach it to you - 'spin' indeed!
he 3.6 L V-6 that's going in the Genesis will produce 268
The GM 3.6 V6 produces over 300 hp, granted with DI.
the 3.8 will produce 290...what is your point
The Nissan/Infiniti 3.7 V6 produces 330 hp.
Okay, I don't think there is anything wrong that Hyundai decided to go with 3.8 instead of 3.5 with the engine and I am sure they have good reasons to. However, I am just not a big fan of the "trading displacement for power" philosophy, that's why I was never a fan (and still not) of big domestic V8s.
I don't think Avalon owners need to justify themselves for spending the premium because I am sure in their minds, the purchases were money well spent. I also do not believe the Azera owners should keep insisting that there is no better value in this class because "value" to Azera owners might not be the same to say Avalon and Maxima owners.
Okay...and what did both cars start out as new? Let's say the difference is $4000 for both. That would mean the Avalon started out $22,700 and the Azera started out at $18,700. The point is...they BOTH lost $4000 in value...how does that give the Avalon the Edge here? So basically (Mr. Remedial Math) if it cost $4000 more when it was new and it's still worth $4000 more when it's used...how is that any better than the Azera??? Remedial indeed!
Oh..and the "spin" comment was directed towards giving the Azera the same hp and removing the 19 lbs extra it has over the Avalon. Regardless of the displacement of the engine...it would run right next to your Avalon, instead of slightly behind.
I noticed you didn't respond to my pointing out that Hyundai indeed can get greater hp from a smaller displaced engine. Thank you very much.
Why do you have to reduce the engine to 3.5 liters? another ridiculous question - to make it equal to the Toyotas (and Nissan engines) - obviously. Whether you know it or not, the smaller the engine the less the HP and vice versa. Using simple ratios, the 2GR in its present form would be putting out 20 MORE hp with a simple increase in size to 3.8 liters - and it would logically suck a little more gas as well. And before you get all excited that this 290HP out of this phantom 3.8 liter Toyota engine is the same as the 'performance' V6 in the Genesis - let me remind you that that Toyota is already getting 306 hp out of this engine without increasing its size - its called the IS350
Louis...the point is...the Captain seems to think that Hyundai can't squeeze more power out of their current engines. Thus, I pointed out how the current 3.6 and 3.8 will be utilized in the newest offering (Genesis) featuring some extra ponies.
I really believe they chose 3.8 for room to grow...as you see, it's the same powerplant that will be in the mid-level Genesis.
Ahhhhhhhhh...I never said that there is no better value than an Azera. My friend, I have merely stated that the Azera is a viable option and a contender in it's respective segments. If anything...I'm saying that the Azera is on par with Avalon as far as value is concerned.
Captain...merely changing displacement doesn't automatically equate to more power...there are other things that have to take place to accomodate that. If that's the case, then the 3.8 in the Azera would be currently producing the 290 hp it'll be producing in the Genesis.
The whole point of this conversation is...Hyundai is able to do the very things that Toyota is doing...just using different displacments to do so. Who's to say that they can't get 300 hp out of their 3.6? Who's to say that they can't get 350 out of their 3.8? Do you know that it's not possible?
Well, there is really no way to prove him wrong isn't there? The fact is Hyundai's 3.6 and 3.8 have less horsepower than some of the best 3.5, 3.6 and 3.8 V6s and with tiny bit worse FE. Unless I get more info otherwise I wouldn't speculate that whether or not Hyundai is able to produce the same horsepower with a smaller engine.
If "room to grow" is what Hyundai is concerned then they should start up with a smaller engine like how Nissan did it. Their 3.5 produces 306 hp and with little tweaks and increasing of displacement the 3.7 produces 330 hp.
I guess my point is that if there is a way to produce equal amount of horsepower with a 3.5 rather than 3.8 then I don't see why not to go that route.
Just had the dealer replace the rear brakes on my Montego Premier,29000 miles and they were paper thin and I constantly had to clean the rear wheels. this was a Factory Recall at no charge. Even with an appointment I waited almost 5 hours at the dealer,get a ride home and pick it up later. Look the car over when you pick it up. Mechanics put a 1"scratch on r.fender and edge of headlight. You have to have 10 eyes with these guys.Ken/Boca Raton FL Also/if your experiencing alot of road noise from tires have them high speed balanced and rotated,I did and what a difference.
Who's to say that they can't get 300 hp out of their 3.6? Who's to say that they can't get 350 out of their 3.8? Do you know that it's not possible?
Who's to say they can get 300hp out of the 3.6 and 350 hp out of their 3.8 since there is no Hyundai 3.6 that produces 300hp and 3.8 that produces 350hp?
How do you know that's possible?
On this topic we are all just speculating, including you.
how is that any better than the Azera??? can you read your own post #4995? You are the musing about how long it takes to get 3 grand back at the gas pumps - not me, all I'm pointing out is that you get your 3 grand back when you trade it in. Furthermore, IF there is 3 grand of difference (your number) at purchase AND a 2 year old Avalon is worth 4 grand more than a 2 year old Azera (Kelley Blue Book) - in fact, the Avalon would be about a grand cheaper to own wouldn't it? - and the gas pumps have nothing to do with it. Minus, of course, the cost of financing the extra 3 grand, of course, but I better not go into that - not so remedial anymore! Think there is more than 3 grand of difference BTW - they are really having trouble selling those Azeras apparently.
Captain seems to think that Hyundai can't squeeze more power Sure they can - put a super/turbocharger on it and you will be bragging on 400 hp (or more). Nissan's getting 450hp out of the VQ doing the same thing. All I did say (and it was more an implication) was that the Hyundai 3.8 is neither as efficient or 'advanced' as several engines - the Toyota 2GR among them. And you don't need to be a brain surgeon to figure this one out....
Actually...according to the info on Edmunds...the FE on Toyota's 3.5 in the Avalon and the 3.8 in the Azera are getting pretty much the SAME FE.
I mean...the fact that Hyundai is putting the 3.6, producing 268 hp in the Genesis proves it.
Hyundai has started with smaller engines. Before the 3.8 existed, they had the 3.3 and the 3.6. The only one that really was a dud in terms of growth was the 2.7.
It's obvious that Hyundai wants to be different...3.3, 3.6 & 3.8. Go figure.
Ahhhhhh...but they aren't doing that, are they? There's no super/turbocharger going in the Genesis.
Actually...el Captain...go check the numbers on Edmunds...the 3.8 is as efficient as the 3.5. I guess we'll have to see what the FE numbers are on the Genesis with the 3.8...if they remain on the same level as what the it produces with the Azera...I guess you would have to eat your words, huh?
Actually...you DON'T get your 3 grand back at trade in.
Dude...you're truly trying every possible way to make it seem like your point is valid, even by trying to confuse folks.
Let's run this down one last time...
If you have a 2006 Azera that you paid $26,000 for and a 2006 Avalon that you paid $30,000 for, right? (just using an example) Both cars equally equipped, same mileage and same condition.
Now...2 years down the road you go to trade them in. If both vehicles lost $4,000 in value in that 2 years, then trade in should bring the Azera owner $22,000 and the Avalon owner $26,000, right? The point I'm making here is that the numbers stay relative to that starting $4,000 difference. It cost more, therefore it's worth more. That is why I said if you go by the percentage of difference between new value and trade-in value...the numbers are close to the point it's no major advantage in the Avalon's favor.
If you want to take it on the level of financing, the Avalon owner will pay more even if the financing terms were the same on both cars. For giggles, let's use 5% over 60 months. Financing the $30,000 at 5% will cost you more than financing $26,000 at 5%...so again, where are your savings???
So...now explain to me how the Avalon will save you money vs. the Azera???
For normal driving of 15k miles per year that's $2,094 for Avalon and $2,304 for Azera. During the 5-year span the difference in cost is $1,015.
That might not seem to be a huge amount but why do I want to pay the extra grand if I can get the equal (or slightly better) performance through a smaller and slightly more fuel efficient engine?
I mean...the fact that Hyundai is putting the 3.6, producing 268 hp in the Genesis proves it.
Last I checked, Toyota already achieved that with the 3.5 2GR 3 years ago.
I'm not the one saying it can't be done, nor am I saying that it will be done. However...Hyundai is already showing that their current V-6's are versatile. I haven't speculated anything, I merely posed a question of how one could know what is or isn't possible, without being a Hyundai insider?
The question of a 3.6 producing 300 hp or the 3.8 kicking out 350...wasn't a speculative statement. It was a question intended to show that one DOESN'T know what may, or may not be possible.
The only one that really was a dud in terms of growth was the 2.7. and you know that this is NOT basically the same engine? That's a question BTW because I don't know for sure. GM and Ford both took ~260 CI V8s and used the same block (and several other things) for 50 years now and in the process had the engine 'bored and stroked' out all the way to over 400 CIs and many many claimed 'gross' HPs. The Toyota 2GR started life as a 4 liter 'high torque' 'stroker' truck engine, reduced its size by shortening that 'stroke' and in the process and came up with the 3.5 which is now used across the entire product line. The Nissan VQ started life as a 190hp 3 liter V6 (late 80s I think) and the VQ35 might be used in even more Nissan/Infiniti vehicles than even Toyota has found for the 2GR Oft times what is new - really isn't.
and now you are not understanding what Louis is actually saying either - relative engine efficiencies is what he's talking about - not a few hundred dollars a year in fuel costs.
Easier to re-work something already in existence More specifically - cheaper! Toyota increased their HP ratings about 30% with the 2GR as well as improving the FE about 10% and that would be the 'base' 2GR-FS. It is also said that they are spending $1000.00 less PER engine PER car. A remarkable achievement if you think about it, that translates literally into $ billions. FWIU the engine is built in MISSOURI. You don't suppose that Toyota is feeling any guilt putting that extra money in their pockets do you? IMO Ford would have been better off 'junking' the 'Duratechs' - but it was sure a lot cheaper to simply modify the old 3.0. GM has been hanging onto decrepid old pushrod V6s longer than you've been alive. So now we have a competitively powerful Ford engine that has many of the refinement issues that the old 3.0 has had for many years and an engine IMO that not only trails those Toyota/Nissan engines but also the efforts by that Korean' upstart' that you like to talk about so much. .
Hyundai doesn't have a 3.5, nor a 3.6, get it right please.
The 3.3L produces 264hp The 3.8L produces 290hp The 4.6L produces 375hp
Again, keep in mind the Genesis gets the second generation of its new engines. As evident in the 09 Sonata, its base engine not only gets a good bump in hp, it now achieves best-in-class MPG; ditto on the V6 engine, with gains in hp, and in the top of the pack as far as fuel efficiency is concerned. This is the trend the Genesis will be going, the engines will not be carried over from the Azera.
Hyundai does not make a 3.6L V6 engine. GM makes the 3.6L V6. The Hyundai V6 engines are 3.3L and 3.8L. According to Hyundai's official press release, the Genesis 3.3L V6 is rated at 264 HP, using 87 octane unleaded. The Genesis 3.8L V6 is rated at 290 HP, also using 87 octane unleaded.
Adding direct injection (as in the IS350 and CTS engines) appears to give V6 engines a gain of between 30 to 40 HP. Given direct injection, then, the Genesis' 3.3L should jump up to around 295 to 305 HP, and the 3.8L should jump up to around 320 to 330 HP. I wouldn't be surprised if at least the 3.8L got DI within a couple years.
Imagine my embarassment...you're right, no 3.6. However...Hyundai did produce a 3.5...go back and look at the '04-'06 Santa Fe and the '02-'05 XG350 had it.
What do you mean the engines won't carry over from the Azera...the 3.8 going into the Genesis is the one from the Azera.
Yeah...I can see just how much more efficient the Toyota 3.5 is as compared to the Hyundai 3.8...it takes 15 years to recoup the savings. Yeah...I would call that superior efficiency.
2 mpg is hardly a huge difference. It's really the result of an average because not every Avalon driver will see the same FE that you may see. Just as not every Azera owner will see the same FE. Different locations, different elevations, different terrain...different drivers. When everything is averaged out...there's really no big difference one way or the other.
Now maybe you need to hold on to that 2 mpg, just to justify to yourself the point you steadfastly stand behind...that the Avalon is a superior car. The Avalon is indeed a very good car with lots of history behind it. Again, and again....and yet again...the only thing I've said is that the Azera is, and will continue to be...a viable option and strong competitor for the Avalon.
However, I do like how you switched gears after being shown it would take 15 years to see the savings in terms of that FE...how it's not about money, but rather engine efficiency. Okay...for the sake of the argument, you're absolutely right...Toyota's 3.5 is more efficient than the Hyundai 3.8 simply because they get more hp out of .3 less liters. Does that make you feel better now?
the 3.8 is as efficient as the 3.5. not this year - power per unit volume is 76.6 HP/liter on the Toyota BASE 2GR and 69.2 hp/liter on the Azera BASE 3.8. More than a 10% difference to which you can also add another 10% or so for a FE difference. BTW I was checking the physical staTs on the Max/Avalon/Azera this morning in the CR 08 Auto Issue. Curb weights are listed as 3545/3600/3845 respectively - a 300 lb. difference relative to the Maxima. Makes some sense simply because the Nissan will outaccelerate the Azera - with LESS (rated) hp, and Hyundai has never been terribly good at buildings things light although I will grant you that the Maxima is the smaller car of the three. .
Funny...on paper, that 10% looks like a big difference, but when it translates into real world driving...it is no longer 10% my friend.
The Azera is definitely the porker of the bunch. It's not secret that Hyundai still uses more steel in building their cars as the use of aluminum would drive the cost of the cars up. So...aluminum is only used where they deem critically necessary.
In this case, for it to be 300 lbs heavier than a Max and over 200 lbs heavier than the Avalon...the acceleration numbers aren't that bad. If you shaved those lbs. The Azera would defintely be a bit quicker.
Hyundai could build them lighter, but then...they would probably end up costing as much as the rival Toyotas, Hondas and Nissans.
The Lambda engines are the same in the Genesis but as second generations for the 3.3 & 3.8
The Azera will get the second generation when the next facelift is due; this was the case on the 09 facelifted Sonata that is making its way to dealers.
that 10% looks like a big difference, but when it translates into real world driving...it is no longer 10% my friend guess that depends on how you look at it - right now it costs me about at 50 bucks to fill up my Avalon - just think I could have a slower car that has less resale value (and yes it was cheaper to buy) - and it could effectively cost me $55. What a deal.
I think that you might as well save your time and energy on this futile discussion that you're having. You have an Azera that you're proud of and rightfully so. You also have some Avalon owners who are equally as proud of the vehicles and don't like the idea of any car (especially a ...gasp...Korean upstart) being favorably compared to an Avalon. Everyone tends to want to justify their decision about their choice in cars. Some people even feel running down the competition is the way to do it.
Just so you know I have no dog in this fight, I've owned 3 Accords, an Acura RL, TL, 2 Camry, and 2 Avalon. When I bought my TL in 2006 I did a comparison of the Azera and I was very impressed. It's a fine car and I nearly bought one. The only reason that I didn't was the fact that it was a first year model, I had excellent history w/ my RL, and not having any Hyundai experience to draw from. Now two years later I am really excited to see the Genesis in person. This looks like one great car that I would be happy to own. I really like the styling of the Genesis.
The resale issue is a legitimate question, but the resale will come with time as more people begin to buy the vehicles and have first hand experience. The reality is that as the resale goes up, the list/selling price will go up too. The trick is to buy new right as the brand starts to trend up. I think that we may be getting close to the tipping point for Hyundai over the next several years. Enjoy your Azera.
Guess what...it costs me about $50 to fill up too? However...if from "E", it would cost a bit more as the Azera has a larger tank than the Avalon.
Once again, you fail to understand the resale value thing. That's okay, you've gotta one track mind, so I understand the problem here. The point of the whole resale thing that I was making...the Azera owner doesn't lose that much more in value when compared to the Avalon owner. Simple, cut and dry. I guess a better way to put it...the percentage of depreciation is close. So...technically, you're right...the Avalon will be worth more, however...in order to do so, it had to cost more intially. You wouldn't be saying that if both the Avalon and Azera were priced the same, and that would really be the only way you might understand what I've been trying to say all along.
Some people believe value is the number of gadgets/$. As an analogy, these people are not BMWs target customer. If I were buying a $100K car, I would want every gadget available.
Comments
Actually...no it isn't...the larger that gap, the longer it would take to make up that difference in FE.
However, looking at numbers on Edmunds...they have the Avalon & Azera listed with the same FE. Wow...imagine that, guess that would equate to NO advantage in the FE department.
So, to answer your question...the money saved is on the side of the Azera.
At any rate, you made a comment about starting a car up and not hearing the engine running is one sign of refinement (in so many words it was part of what you were saying). If you had driven an Azera, you would have found that to be true of the Hyundai 3.8. It is no louder than either the Avalon's or Max's engine!!!
The softness of the Azera suspension is about the only knock when comparing it to the Avalon and the Max. Even the Motor Trend comparo said the same thing and it really didn't hold it against the Azera, just basically said it was better suited for highway cruising.
If you're thinking in terms of resale value, I've already shown that to be a moot point. The Avalon will be worth more because it costs more to begin with. Now if you look at it from a percentage aspect, it's much, much closer than you think. I mean...look at what you paid for the Avalon and say 2 years down the road, figure how much it's worth...what's the percentage of difference? If you did the same thing with the Azera (for the sake of the arguement, say both cars have identical mileage on them and are in the same condition)...figure the percentage of difference between it's value new and what it's worth after 2 years...I guarantee you...you'll be surprised!
Did that TL trail so far behind that it couldn't even see your tail lights? Because according to you that's the definition of "getting smoked".
This event happening within the first few weeks of ownership of my Azera, just really impressed me. I mean...in MY mind...the TL is a good running car and I figured it to have some get up and go. So...wanting to see what my Azera could do...I went for it. Even the TL driver pulled up next to me when we finally did come to a light and mirrored my sentiments by telling me he was impressed too.
That's it...nothing more. I might have explained it differently if I had set out to race and beat a TL or something like that, but nah...it was just something that happned...right time and place, that's all.
there you go dreaming again- what about the extra displacement the Hyundai engine needs to put out LESS HP. So lets reduce the Hyundai engine to 3.5 liters and then see if Hyundai can get the same sort of hp. Oops, if they could do that then they might actually have an engine as efficient as the 2GR - wouldn't they?
And yes the Avalon will be worth more because it does indeed cost more - BUT, as long as you get it back at trade-in time it didn't cost more at all - certainly not a 'moot' point. It's the only thinh that matters. Percentages of value mean nothing BTW, it is obviously total dollars out of pocket that we should all be concerned with - if you want to buy a car that holds its value real well on a percentage basis buy a BMW and then you'll understand.
You Hyundai freaks seem to focus on how cheap Hyundai HAS TO sell its cars but then conveniently forget how cheap they remain 4 or 5 years down the road.
Why do you have to reduce the engine to 3.5 liters? They obviously can get that kind of HP out of their engines. If I recall...the 3.6 L V-6 that's going in the Genesis will produce 268 and the 3.8 will produce 290...what is your point???
Also...percentages of value mean a lot. Because in the end...the Avalon loses as much value as the Azera does over the same amount of time. So...it's relative to the fact that the Avalon costs more, which equates to being worth more. However...the loss of value is close to being the same.
So..out of pocket savings would be the advantage of the Azera. It cost you less to get it to begin with...remember?
Hyundai freaks aren't "focused on how cheap Hyundai HAS TO sell it's cars but then conveniently forget how cheap they remain 4 or 5 years down the road." We're focused on the value of what we get for our money. It's the Toytoa freaks that have to find ways of justifying spending the extra money by knocking the Hyundai. And get this...make it seem like there's a greater overall savings!!! LOL Face it...with a Hyundai, you get a viable option that's a solid contender in every segment.
If you can get out of your own 'I bought a cheap car' nirvana - LOOK IT UP, an 06 Avalon XLS has a $18.7k trade-in value, the 06 Azera Ltd $14.7 (source: kbb.com). That's $4000.00 bucks where I come from - did you actually spend $4k more for the Toyota new - possibly. This is remedial math - I give up on trying to teach it to you - 'spin' indeed!
The GM 3.6 V6 produces over 300 hp, granted with DI.
the 3.8 will produce 290...what is your point
The Nissan/Infiniti 3.7 V6 produces 330 hp.
Okay, I don't think there is anything wrong that Hyundai decided to go with 3.8 instead of 3.5 with the engine and I am sure they have good reasons to. However, I am just not a big fan of the "trading displacement for power" philosophy, that's why I was never a fan (and still not) of big domestic V8s.
I don't think Avalon owners need to justify themselves for spending the premium because I am sure in their minds, the purchases were money well spent. I also do not believe the Azera owners should keep insisting that there is no better value in this class because "value" to Azera owners might not be the same to say Avalon and Maxima owners.
Oh..and the "spin" comment was directed towards giving the Azera the same hp and removing the 19 lbs extra it has over the Avalon. Regardless of the displacement of the engine...it would run right next to your Avalon, instead of slightly behind.
I noticed you didn't respond to my pointing out that Hyundai indeed can get greater hp from a smaller displaced engine. Thank you very much.
another ridiculous question - to make it equal to the Toyotas (and Nissan engines) - obviously. Whether you know it or not, the smaller the engine the less the HP and vice versa. Using simple ratios, the 2GR in its present form would be putting out 20 MORE hp with a simple increase in size to 3.8 liters - and it would logically suck a little more gas as well.
And before you get all excited that this 290HP out of this phantom 3.8 liter Toyota engine is the same as the 'performance' V6 in the Genesis - let me remind you that that Toyota is already getting 306 hp out of this engine without increasing its size - its called the IS350
I really believe they chose 3.8 for room to grow...as you see, it's the same powerplant that will be in the mid-level Genesis.
Ahhhhhhhhh...I never said that there is no better value than an Azera. My friend, I have merely stated that the Azera is a viable option and a contender in it's respective segments. If anything...I'm saying that the Azera is on par with Avalon as far as value is concerned.
The whole point of this conversation is...Hyundai is able to do the very things that Toyota is doing...just using different displacments to do so. Who's to say that they can't get 300 hp out of their 3.6? Who's to say that they can't get 350 out of their 3.8? Do you know that it's not possible?
If "room to grow" is what Hyundai is concerned then they should start up with a smaller engine like how Nissan did it. Their 3.5 produces 306 hp and with little tweaks and increasing of displacement the 3.7 produces 330 hp.
I guess my point is that if there is a way to produce equal amount of horsepower with a 3.5 rather than 3.8 then I don't see why not to go that route.
Who's to say they can get 300hp out of the 3.6 and 350 hp out of their 3.8 since there is no Hyundai 3.6 that produces 300hp and 3.8 that produces 350hp?
How do you know that's possible?
On this topic we are all just speculating, including you.
can you read your own post #4995? You are the musing about how long it takes to get 3 grand back at the gas pumps - not me, all I'm pointing out is that you get your 3 grand back when you trade it in. Furthermore, IF there is 3 grand of difference (your number) at purchase AND a 2 year old Avalon is worth 4 grand more than a 2 year old Azera (Kelley Blue Book) - in fact, the Avalon would be about a grand cheaper to own wouldn't it? - and the gas pumps have nothing to do with it. Minus, of course, the cost of financing the extra 3 grand, of course, but I better not go into that - not so remedial anymore!
Think there is more than 3 grand of difference BTW - they are really having trouble selling those Azeras apparently.
Sure they can - put a super/turbocharger on it and you will be bragging on 400 hp (or more). Nissan's getting 450hp out of the VQ doing the same thing. All I did say (and it was more an implication) was that the Hyundai 3.8 is neither as efficient or 'advanced' as several engines - the Toyota 2GR among them. And you don't need to be a brain surgeon to figure this one out....
I mean...the fact that Hyundai is putting the 3.6, producing 268 hp in the Genesis proves it.
Hyundai has started with smaller engines. Before the 3.8 existed, they had the 3.3 and the 3.6. The only one that really was a dud in terms of growth was the 2.7.
It's obvious that Hyundai wants to be different...3.3, 3.6 & 3.8. Go figure.
Actually...el Captain...go check the numbers on Edmunds...the 3.8 is as efficient as the 3.5. I guess we'll have to see what the FE numbers are on the Genesis with the 3.8...if they remain on the same level as what the it produces with the Azera...I guess you would have to eat your words, huh?
Dude...you're truly trying every possible way to make it seem like your point is valid, even by trying to confuse folks.
Let's run this down one last time...
If you have a 2006 Azera that you paid $26,000 for and a 2006 Avalon that you paid $30,000 for, right? (just using an example) Both cars equally equipped, same mileage and same condition.
Now...2 years down the road you go to trade them in. If both vehicles lost $4,000 in value in that 2 years, then trade in should bring the Azera owner $22,000 and the Avalon owner $26,000, right? The point I'm making here is that the numbers stay relative to that starting $4,000 difference. It cost more, therefore it's worth more. That is why I said if you go by the percentage of difference between new value and trade-in value...the numbers are close to the point it's no major advantage in the Avalon's favor.
If you want to take it on the level of financing, the Avalon owner will pay more even if the financing terms were the same on both cars. For giggles, let's use 5% over 60 months. Financing the $30,000 at 5% will cost you more than financing $26,000 at 5%...so again, where are your savings???
So...now explain to me how the Avalon will save you money vs. the Azera???
2008 Avalon (3.5 V6): 19/28/22 mpg
2008 Azera (3.8 V6): 17/26/20 mpg
Cost to drive 25 miles:
Avalon: $3.49
Azera: $3.84
For normal driving of 15k miles per year that's $2,094 for Avalon and $2,304 for Azera. During the 5-year span the difference in cost is $1,015.
That might not seem to be a huge amount but why do I want to pay the extra grand if I can get the equal (or slightly better) performance through a smaller and slightly more fuel efficient engine?
I mean...the fact that Hyundai is putting the 3.6, producing 268 hp in the Genesis proves it.
Last I checked, Toyota already achieved that with the 3.5 2GR 3 years ago.
I'm not the one saying it can't be done, nor am I saying that it will be done. However...Hyundai is already showing that their current V-6's are versatile. I haven't speculated anything, I merely posed a question of how one could know what is or isn't possible, without being a Hyundai insider?
The question of a 3.6 producing 300 hp or the 3.8 kicking out 350...wasn't a speculative statement. It was a question intended to show that one DOESN'T know what may, or may not be possible.
and you know that this is NOT basically the same engine? That's a question BTW because I don't know for sure.
GM and Ford both took ~260 CI V8s and used the same block (and several other things) for 50 years now and in the process had the engine 'bored and stroked' out all the way to over 400 CIs and many many claimed 'gross' HPs. The Toyota 2GR started life as a 4 liter 'high torque' 'stroker' truck engine, reduced its size by shortening that 'stroke' and in the process and came up with the 3.5 which is now used across the entire product line. The Nissan VQ started life as a 190hp 3 liter V6 (late 80s I think) and the VQ35 might be used in even more Nissan/Infiniti vehicles than even Toyota has found for the 2GR
Oft times what is new - really isn't.
Well...considering Toyota has been doing it for a longer period and Hyundai is playing catch up...I would say they are doing pretty good.
In Hyundai's defense...they created the 3.8 as a brand new engine, so they need time to "evolve" it in their line up.
BINGO!!
More specifically - cheaper! Toyota increased their HP ratings about 30% with the 2GR as well as improving the FE about 10% and that would be the 'base' 2GR-FS. It is also said that they are spending $1000.00 less PER engine PER car. A remarkable achievement if you think about it, that translates literally into $ billions. FWIU the engine is built in MISSOURI. You don't suppose that Toyota is feeling any guilt putting that extra money in their pockets do you?
IMO Ford would have been better off 'junking' the 'Duratechs' - but it was sure a lot cheaper to simply modify the old 3.0. GM has been hanging onto decrepid old pushrod V6s longer than you've been alive. So now we have a competitively powerful Ford engine that has many of the refinement issues that the old 3.0 has had for many years and an engine IMO that not only trails those Toyota/Nissan engines but also the efforts by that Korean' upstart' that you like to talk about so much. .
The 3.3L produces 264hp
The 3.8L produces 290hp
The 4.6L produces 375hp
Again, keep in mind the Genesis gets the second generation of its new engines. As evident in the 09 Sonata, its base engine not only gets a good bump in hp, it now achieves best-in-class MPG; ditto on the V6 engine, with gains in hp, and in the top of the pack as far as fuel efficiency is concerned. This is the trend the Genesis will be going, the engines will not be carried over from the Azera.
Adding direct injection (as in the IS350 and CTS engines) appears to give V6 engines a gain of between 30 to 40 HP. Given direct injection, then, the Genesis' 3.3L should jump up to around 295 to 305 HP, and the 3.8L should jump up to around 320 to 330 HP. I wouldn't be surprised if at least the 3.8L got DI within a couple years.
What do you mean the engines won't carry over from the Azera...the 3.8 going into the Genesis is the one from the Azera.
2 mpg is hardly a huge difference. It's really the result of an average because not every Avalon driver will see the same FE that you may see. Just as not every Azera owner will see the same FE. Different locations, different elevations, different terrain...different drivers. When everything is averaged out...there's really no big difference one way or the other.
Now maybe you need to hold on to that 2 mpg, just to justify to yourself the point you steadfastly stand behind...that the Avalon is a superior car. The Avalon is indeed a very good car with lots of history behind it. Again, and again....and yet again...the only thing I've said is that the Azera is, and will continue to be...a viable option and strong competitor for the Avalon.
However, I do like how you switched gears after being shown it would take 15 years to see the savings in terms of that FE...how it's not about money, but rather engine efficiency. Okay...for the sake of the argument, you're absolutely right...Toyota's 3.5 is more efficient than the Hyundai 3.8 simply because they get more hp out of .3 less liters. Does that make you feel better now?
not this year - power per unit volume is 76.6 HP/liter on the Toyota BASE 2GR and 69.2 hp/liter on the Azera BASE 3.8. More than a 10% difference to which you can also add another 10% or so for a FE difference.
BTW I was checking the physical staTs on the Max/Avalon/Azera this morning in the CR 08 Auto Issue. Curb weights are listed as 3545/3600/3845 respectively - a 300 lb. difference relative to the Maxima. Makes some sense simply because the Nissan will outaccelerate the Azera - with LESS (rated) hp, and Hyundai has never been terribly good at buildings things light although I will grant you that the Maxima is the smaller car of the three.
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The Azera is definitely the porker of the bunch. It's not secret that Hyundai still uses more steel in building their cars as the use of aluminum would drive the cost of the cars up. So...aluminum is only used where they deem critically necessary.
In this case, for it to be 300 lbs heavier than a Max and over 200 lbs heavier than the Avalon...the acceleration numbers aren't that bad. If you shaved those lbs. The Azera would defintely be a bit quicker.
Hyundai could build them lighter, but then...they would probably end up costing as much as the rival Toyotas, Hondas and Nissans.
The Lambda engines are the same in the Genesis but as second generations for the 3.3 & 3.8
The Azera will get the second generation when the next facelift is due; this was the case on the 09 facelifted Sonata that is making its way to dealers.
guess that depends on how you look at it - right now it costs me about at 50 bucks to fill up my Avalon - just think I could have a slower car that has less resale value (and yes it was cheaper to buy) - and it could effectively cost me $55. What a deal.
The 2007 Strategic Value Award for "Larger Cars" went to the Azera, not the Avalon. Of course, the Azera also won the 2006 award, as well.
link title
But to each his own, both are good cars and good values. Obviously, the captain is brand oriented, nothing wrong with that. It's his money to spend.
Just so you know I have no dog in this fight, I've owned 3 Accords, an Acura RL, TL, 2 Camry, and 2 Avalon. When I bought my TL in 2006 I did a comparison of the Azera and I was very impressed. It's a fine car and I nearly bought one. The only reason that I didn't was the fact that it was a first year model, I had excellent history w/ my RL, and not having any Hyundai experience to draw from. Now two years later I am really excited to see the Genesis in person. This looks like one great car that I would be happy to own. I really like the styling of the Genesis.
The resale issue is a legitimate question, but the resale will come with time as more people begin to buy the vehicles and have first hand experience. The reality is that as the resale goes up, the list/selling price will go up too. The trick is to buy new right as the brand starts to trend up. I think that we may be getting close to the tipping point for Hyundai over the next several years. Enjoy your Azera.
Once again, you fail to understand the resale value thing. That's okay, you've gotta one track mind, so I understand the problem here. The point of the whole resale thing that I was making...the Azera owner doesn't lose that much more in value when compared to the Avalon owner. Simple, cut and dry. I guess a better way to put it...the percentage of depreciation is close. So...technically, you're right...the Avalon will be worth more, however...in order to do so, it had to cost more intially. You wouldn't be saying that if both the Avalon and Azera were priced the same, and that would really be the only way you might understand what I've been trying to say all along.
If you value "to get the most for less money" then Azera is the best value in the group.
On the other hand, if the value is "to have the superior (numero uno) car without paying too much premium" then Avalon will win hands down.