Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

194959799100134

Comments

  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Can't get it right? The Theta I4s and Lambda V6s from Hyundai are very comptent engines (for example, have a look at the 09 specs for the Sonata and compare the two engines to the 09 Camry powerplants); Ford has a very nice 3.5, as does GM's 3.6 (which you mentioned).

    The V8 Tau in the Genesis is the same reason most luxury models will continue to market their V8s. Of course they are not "green" engines.

    FWIW, my colleagues and I have gotten consistent high 20s in the Azera LTD and mid 30s in the Sonata LTD V6 when we had those vehicles in.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Funny thing...folks are saying the Hyundai 3.8 isn't great FE-wise (19/28) and yet, it's numbers are almost identicle to the numbers of the 3.5 in the Maxima (20/28). I've heard NOBODY make complaints about the FE of the Maxima, so why knock that of the 3.8???
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    I'm with you on this Cap. Although I feel I am talking out of both sides of my mouth. On one hand I am excited about the Genesis, on the other hand I keep comparing it to my Avalon. As I have said before I find it hard to believe the V6 model will get better FE or be faster 0 - 60 than my Av. Maybe I have to give a little in those departments to gain a little elsewhere? The Genesis does figure to be a notch above in handling and amenities than the Avalon for around the same money.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    "folks are saying the Hyundai 3.8 isn't great FE-wise "

    I think its more the issue that with 40 more HP and in a heavier RWD package the Genesis fairs to be worse than the Azera and even further behind the Avalon. Unless Hyundai has really tricked out the 3.8 with gadgetry I think I am dead on here.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I think the other sticking point with the Genesis as opposed to the Avalon will be, foul weather drivability. I mean...FWD is more desired than RWD in rain and snow and more folks may not want to come out of that comfort zone, regardless of the amenities offered. Even if the Genesis gets the same FE and 0-60 times are similar...I think the nod would go to the FWD Avalon in most cases. The RWD Genesis would appeal to those that want the thrill of RWD and what it offers from a driver's standpoint.

    Once again, the Azera is the better comparison to the Avalon...less money, a little less technology, but an overall solid value.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...the 40 hp increase will only have to tote an extra couple hundred pounds, i can see the FE being similar if not better. It is possible, I mean...the Maxima gets similar numbers to the Azera and the Maxima is much heavier than the Azera. Last I checked...curb weight of the Max is over 4K and the Azera is a little over 3600. The Max only has 2 more ponies than the Azera...so it's conceivable for the Genesis to fare better in the FE department...we'll just have to see.

    I do wonder what options will be V-8 exclusive for the Genesis. However, it would be nice if all options were available between the 3.8 or the 4.6. That would make either trim of the Genesis appealing from a value-for-your-dollar perspective.

    Everytime I've read about features and options on the Genesis, it's always with the 4.6. Nothing has come out about what will or won't be available on the 3.8 trim level.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    you are right, of course, if all you are looking at is spec. sheets,
    Refinement - get behind the wheel of an Avalon/Maxima/Accord/TL V6 some day and not know that the engine is running at a stoplight or that you even started the car or accelerate hard and start bouncing off the rev limiter (if you are not paying attention) , then you will understand what the difference is.
    Efficiency - FE is always going to be relative to the type of driving anybody does, I am sure there are plenty of folks out there that know that the Avalon, for example, will get in the mid 30s under the proper conditions, I just happen to see the 27 because I do spend some time on the highway. Like wise there are those that probably see only the 22 mpg overall CR has it rated at,for example and FTM the 18 that the Azera is rated at. So you can tell me about somebody who once got high 20s out of an Azera and it really means nothing, even though I have no doubt that it can be done.
    Despite what is about a 20% advantage in FE (22 vs 18) the Avalon, will still outrun an Azera that also happens to have a 10% bigger engine. This is what I'm talking about in terms of 'getting it right' - not that the Korean engine is particularily bad in any way, just not quite there yet - in refinement or in efficiency- although I will grant you that it is a lot closer in the former than the latter. I will also contend the same sort of differences incidentally if you want to compare a Hyundai 'world' 4 banger to one produced by the 'Japan 3', for example.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    The option packages will be interesting to see. What I am thinking is the V8 will come mostly all loaded up with maybe NAV being a standalone option. Most of the other stuff will most likely be available as options on the 3.8. I have noticed that 4cyl CamCordTimas can be had with equipment that was previously available only on the 6cyl models. See a trend?

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    curb weight on a Maxima (among the lightest in this group) is 3591 lbs. - maybe you should check again - if it did weigh over 2 tons it sure as heck isn't going to outaccelerate an Azera is it?. Those 40 extra ponies as well as those 200 lbs. you mention (RWD doesn't help either) are the primary reasons that the FE should be worse for the Genesis - not better - even comparing it to the Azera. Only makes sense, we'll know more soon enough.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    Like wise there are those that probably see only the 22 mpg overall CR has it rated at,for example and FTM the 18 that the Azera is rated at. So you can tell me about somebody who once got high 20s out of an Azera and it really means nothing, even though I have no doubt that it can be done.
    Despite what is about a 20% advantage in FE (22 vs 18) the Avalon


    Not to dispute your beliefs or nit pick, but from the EPA's website (www.fueleconomy.gov), the difference is only 2mpg.

    2008 Azera 3.8 17 city, 26 hwy, 20 combined
    2008 Avalon 19 city, 28 hwy, 22 combined

    ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Captain...your statement there just shows you haven't been behidn the wheel of an Azera...you DEFINITELY can't tell that the engine is running. Also...the 3.8 is a very spirited engine...only way I can describe is to tell you to take one for a spin. I think even YOU would be surprised.

    You make it seem like the Avalon will just literally pull away from an Azera, once again...statements made by someone that hasn't driven an Azera and is heavily Avalon-biased. My friend, please...before you make any semi-anti-statments on the Azera...go take one for a serious spin. I think, seriously, you would look at the car in a different light.

    As far as FE in the Azera...I've hit 29 mpg on the highway and that was cruising at about 65 with 5 passengers and a full trunk. When I'm doing all city driving (daily commuting to work), the mileage is around 17/18 mpg and I'm a bit heavy footed for the most part.

    Is Hyundai doing a bad job...hardly. Can they improve...indeed. Give them time, you'll see them catch up. Toyota and Honda have always lead the charge in the FE wars when it comes to the V-6's. I think a large part of what Hyundai does is based on the groundwork that the other two laid. At the same time, they must endure their growing pains as well.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I did sir, looked at Edmunds.com at the 2006 Maxima SL model...maybe it's a typo, but it showed a weight of over 4000 lbs. However, looking at the 2008 SL...it shows 3579, must be a typo. However...the Azera at 3629 is only 50 lbs. heavier than the Maxima. The Avalon is 19 lbs lighter than the Azera at 3610.

    Wait a minute...aren't RWD vehicles supposed to be better at accelerating??? Isn't that one of the reasons why RWD is a prefered platform for a sports sedan???

    The FE may not be any better in the Genesis as compared to the Azera, but I can see it being about the same. Like you said...well know more soon enough.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Right!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    was using CRs numbers - from their 08 Car issue - not that any of these numbers are really anything you can hang your hat on. It's all relative. But I will rephrase in deference to the EPA:
    despite a 10% smaller engine and a 10% difference in FE the Avalon will still outaccelerate the Azera .
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    It's got to be a typo, the Maxima SL has a curb weight of 3,579 lbs and the SE is at 3,591 lbs.

    Can you show a link to where it says 4,000 lbs?

    I can guarantee you that the Genesis FE will not be better than Azera, the best case is that both are the same.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    It shall, but it won't just walk away from one. ;) Which...considering the Avalon being a tad lighter with a few more ponies under the hood...it SHOULD be out accelerating the Azera. However...if you look at the MotorTrend comparo...the Avalon went 0-60 in 6.2 and they got the Azera to go 0-60 in 6.8. 1/4 mile run...the Avalon did it in 14.8 @ 96.2 mph and the Azera did it in 15.2 @ 93.6 mph.

    Not exactly a runaway, huh Captain?

    Wait a minute...the Azera stopped quicker (60-0) @ 121 ft, compared to the 126 ft on the Avalon.

    600 ft Slalom run...the Azera averaged 63.8 mph and the Avalon averaged 61.9 mph.

    Wow...here's an important figure that's even closer when compared...passing 45-65 mph...Azera needed 3.2 seconds and the Avalon needed 3 seconds flat.

    Captain...from a performance standpoint, it would seem that the Azera is TRULY a competitor for the Avalon, moreso than you care to admit or accept.

    Here, you can check for yourself, so you can see I didn't make anything up. Like I said, do yourself a favor and hop in an Azera and take it for a spin, and you'll start to understand how any of this is possible. ;)
    MotorTrend Comparo: Azera vs Avalon
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Nah...it's not a typo...went back and looked...they show Gross Weight AND Curb Weight and I glanced at Gross Weight. Okay, okay...tragedy averted. My bad fellas. :blush:

    Louis...I've already conceded that, you're late...as ususal. :sick:
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The Genesis will be using the second generation of Lambda engines (of its V6 applications), like what we have seen on the Sonata, where major hp increases were acheived, on both the I4 and V6, improvements on fuel efficiency were also the case.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Joe...you can't tell these guys anything...they are pro-japenese and the koreans just aren't capable in their eyes. They don't want or care to admit that it is possible.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    RWD cars besides generally being heavier than the same car FWD also is generally fighting the extra rotating frictions (like long heavy driveshafts etc). RWD in itself would have no special advantage in acceleration times either - only that it is a better way to get a lot of HP to the pavement (torque steer issues) . The tradeoff, of course, is the whole controllability issue (in bad driving cnditions) that you and others have mentioned.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Okay...so really...the biggest advantage of RWD is the lack of torque steer, okay...gotcha. ;)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    96.2 mph = 141.09 ft/s

    That means by the time the Avalon crosses the 1/4-mile mark, the Azera is 56.4 ft behind (141.09 x 0.4). Given that the length of the Avalon is 16.4 ft that's means the Azera is trailing by almost 3.5 car length by the 1/4-mile mark.

    Using the same calculation, it's also about 3 car length when Avalon reaches 60 mph.

    So yeah, not exactly a runway but Avalon did smoke the Azera in both acceleration contests.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Also, FWD cars have the tendency to understeer (in racing terms that means the car is "tight") and RWD car are more balanced. However, a little bit of understeer is actually a good thing for daily driving (so the car won't easily spin out) so most RWD cars are engineered to have mild understeer.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Which...at those speeds, the Azera will cover that distance in about .5 seconds (roughly)...like I said, it's not a runaway my friend.

    Boy...if you consider 6.2 vs. 6.8 smoking...you MUST be smoking something. Smoked is when you have one car that can go 0-60 in 5 seconds and another that takes 6.5...that's being smoked. At best, all you can say is the Avalon simply beat the Azera.

    Nice try though.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I consider everything more than 2-car length as being "smoked"

    As long as you can see my tail lights then sir, you've got smoked.

    ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...the one time FWD cars do spin out...while turning on wet roads from a dead stop, going uphill. I've got one street that turns onto a street that has an incline, any time it rains...you're guaranteed to watch cars pull out and spin until they get going.

    My tires start to spin, but then the good ol ESC kicks in.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You guys are just so funny to me! Smoked is when you pull away and the guy behind you can't even read the badging on your car.

    However, in the terms of Avalon vs. Azera...the way Captain makes it seem, the Azera shouldn't even be THAT close.

    I notice that he chose to ignore the whole 600 ft. Slalom course data! LOL I mean, it would indicate that the Azera handles a bit better than the Avalon. Go figure.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    AWD cars also spin out you know...

    I was talking about under normal driving conditions.

    FWD is naturally understeered and RWD is naturally more balanced while leaning toward the oversteer side. That's why under daily driving a FWD car should be just as good as the RWD cars but on a track and under extreme driving that's where the difference shows.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    They do, but the tendency is less. Our AWD Outlook handles that very turn with ease and no slippage.

    Oh...I know, just pointing a an instance, that's all.

    Right, right...I'm with you on that.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Ironically, we are talking about two fine FWD sedans made for comfort and not racing. Anyway, a 2-car length, for example, just means car A is slightly faster than car B. "Smoked?" a 10 second car vs. the Avalon, now that'd be a good example of getting smoked :)

    No, I am not advising racing is okay...
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    LOL You're right, but racing IS okay if done in the right envrionment, such as a drag strip or race track/course.

    However, the point I was making to el Captain (who seems to think that the Avalon is just so much more superior than the Azera) is that it's actually a closer competitor than I think he wishes to admit. I honestly believe it gives him the heebie jeebies to even consider the idea that a Korean product even comes close to his fine Japanese (American built) vehicle.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    "where major hp increases were acheived, on both the I4 and V6, improvements on fuel efficiency were also the case"

    Very true, lately it seems as if power and efficiency are going hand in hand. Lets see what the #s are when they are released and then whomever was right can say "I told you so" :shades: .

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Okay...so really...the biggest advantage of RWD is the lack of torque steer, okay...gotcha. ;)

    And the ability scale the horsepower way beyone front wheel drive.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    "Joe...you can't tell these guys anything...they are pro-japenese"

    I am not pro-anything. I buy whatever gives me the most value and what I conceive to be quality. The 2GR V6 has only one equal in this class of car and that is the Nissan VQ. The smoothness and eagerness to rev is exceptional and it still leads the pack in FE. I am not saying the Hyundai 3.8 is a bad engine, its just not the 2GR.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Actually Tjc...I wasn't referring to you. I have conceded that the Hyundai 3.8 isn't a Toyota or Honda equivalent, a fact I know very well. The only thing I've stated is that one shouldn't overlook it and think that it's not "refined" in any way. Especially if they haven't taken the time to actually go look at one and take an Azera for a test drive (at least).

    Have they started the Azera up to find that you can't tell the engine is running? Have they stepped on the gas pedal to find that their head would be crisply snapped back as the car takes off? Have they experienced how smoothly the car moves up through the gears? Have they experienced how lively the car actually accelerates and how easily it does so? The answer is, in most cases, "No." You just have folks voicing opinion and thoughts and then try to argue with someone that actually knows because they've actually driven and been in some of the other cars being compared.

    That...is all I'm saying here.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    re 4992: Have they started the Azera up to find that you can't tell the engine is running? Have they stepped on the gas pedal to find that their head would be crisply snapped back as the car takes off? Have they experienced how smoothly the car moves up through the gears? Have they experienced how lively the car actually accelerates and how easily it does so?

    Have they enjoyed the $3,000 savings, superior warranty, etc. etc.?
  • autokritikerautokritiker Member Posts: 65
    You guys really crack me up sometimes. When did we all start racing large sedans from 0 to 100 MPH? Really, come on now! The everyday use of acceleration is passing, 20 to 40, or 45 to 65, etc.

    There is a reason the Avalon has a slight acceleration edge over the Azera: The Avalon's transmission shifts quicker than the Azera's. Same when comparing other models. If you don't believe me, go drive an Avalon and an Azera. There's about a .2 to .3 second difference in the 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd upshifts. So add up the shift times, factor-in the slight weight difference, and that's where the slight acceleration differences come from. Has nothing to due with lack of engine refinement or engineering. Maybe Hyundai will give future cars "snappier" shift programming, or maybe they'll want to keep them a bit slower for other reasons.

    As far as MPG is concerned, most people who buy cars are not enthusiasts, and they go by what they see on the "EPA" portion of the window sticker. For the most part, a difference of 2-or-so MPG between the EPA estimates is usually not earth-shattering for many people. We'll just have to wait and see how the future cars actually perform in real life. Keep in mind, some engines continue to get better fuel mileage up to 20,000 miles, and reviewers testing the car at 1,000, 5,000, 10,000 miles are not getting optimal efficiency out of the car at that point.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Dborth...to some of those non-Hyundai types, the warranty is a gimmick. Then of course, they reason the $3000+ in initial savings is made up for by the fuel economy over time. However, what they fail to realize is...at a 2 mpg difference...it'll take a while to see that $3000+!!! LOL
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I know the RL doesn't belong here, but the latest update was revealed today at the Chicago Auto Show. Man, one-sided thumbs down from pretty much everywhere, which is hard to find.

    I bring this up b/c the Genesis was brought up a lot commenting on the RL, and this below about summed up the feelings most had:

    "The Hyundai Genesis is gonna kick the RL's [non-permissible content removed] 8 days a week and 6 times on the weekends! I am very disappointed to say the most...."

    What do you guys think of the chances the Genesis eating into RL's customers? Hardly a lot to start with but a start regardless for the Genesis to make a name for itself in the luxury segment...
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    No, let's not go there. As you noted the RL does not belong here. It is not in a price range that would make it "mainstream" in any way.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    a little bit of understeer is actually a good thing for daily driving
    yes it is, and yes most cars (even 50-50 BMWs) do understeer slightly at the limits because it is safer - the reactions required to keep the car under control is intuitive, meaning lifting the throttle and/or braking when you get in ' too deep'. Oversteering cars as you say are rare but can require more throttle to correct the same condition and are therefore not intuitive. Understeering cars will simply 'plow', scrub off speed, and' want' to straighten their paths. Overall I think it has more to do with the weight distribution than where the drive wheels are - those 60-70s RWD 'muscle cars' were also 60% or so front weight biased and also understeering 'nightmares' just like the FWD cars in this group really are, so being RWD is no guarantee of a balanced 'neutral' handling car, there is much more that goes into it. This is something that BMW in particular has succeeded at better than about anybody else in the industry - a 'balanced' and otherwise well engineered car.
    Reminds me of the 70s vintage 911s (rear weight biased) - handled phenomenally of course - but were very tricky at the limits and would spin out violently if you didn't know what you doing - damn near killed myself in one - more years ago than I would care to admit.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    actually we don't know that - Toyotas have a tendency towards very conservative VSC settings and really can't be shut off - in the Azera (to Hyundai's credit) it is easily disabled. If you actually read these slalom/skidpad 'handling' evaluations you have started to see a little asterisk appearing next to some results - the asterisk meaning 'stability control inhibited'. Ford can 'win' Ford sponsored challenges because of things like this.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    :)
  • manojnairmanojnair Member Posts: 1
    How would the market accept this?
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    MAx heavier than Azera???? 3432 in Maxima vs 3629 in Azera ( edmunds 05 max/06 ltd azera)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    allmet - that 'warranty' is not only a 'Hyundai' gimmick anymore but one shared by several brands of cars that otherwise have trouble selling these days, or are you really going to try to tell me that Chrysler/Hyundai , for example, warranties the 300/Azera that way because they have 'faith' in it. LOL
    $3000.00 BTW may be a little low because things like 2 year old Avalons can be worth $4000.00 more than the equivalent Azera (run the numbers on kbb if you don't believe it) - so then the FE bonus is really money saved , isn't it? LOL
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    is to tell you to take one for a spin. I think even YOU would be surprised.
    I did and I was, and never in any of my hundreds of posts have I ever said otherwise - it is simply not a Avalon (or a Maxima) engine wise. Not to be discouraged though, because that is awfully tall timber. The Azera Limited I did drive was extraordinarily 'soft' - thought I was in an old-fashioned Buick. Keep in mind I'm comparing to my 'Touring' Avalon because I would also tell you that the XLS/Ltd trims of the Avalon are also too soft for my tastes. FE and actual cost of ownership (like most folks I tend to keep a car 4-5 years) are also things that would keep me from buying one.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    aren't you the one who said in the past that you smoked TL?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Alex...calm down, I already saw MY error and I posted it.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I did, what does that have to do with the current convo? :confuse:
Sign In or Register to comment.