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Comments
The V8 Tau in the Genesis is the same reason most luxury models will continue to market their V8s. Of course they are not "green" engines.
FWIW, my colleagues and I have gotten consistent high 20s in the Azera LTD and mid 30s in the Sonata LTD V6 when we had those vehicles in.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I think its more the issue that with 40 more HP and in a heavier RWD package the Genesis fairs to be worse than the Azera and even further behind the Avalon. Unless Hyundai has really tricked out the 3.8 with gadgetry I think I am dead on here.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Once again, the Azera is the better comparison to the Avalon...less money, a little less technology, but an overall solid value.
I do wonder what options will be V-8 exclusive for the Genesis. However, it would be nice if all options were available between the 3.8 or the 4.6. That would make either trim of the Genesis appealing from a value-for-your-dollar perspective.
Everytime I've read about features and options on the Genesis, it's always with the 4.6. Nothing has come out about what will or won't be available on the 3.8 trim level.
Refinement - get behind the wheel of an Avalon/Maxima/Accord/TL V6 some day and not know that the engine is running at a stoplight or that you even started the car or accelerate hard and start bouncing off the rev limiter (if you are not paying attention) , then you will understand what the difference is.
Efficiency - FE is always going to be relative to the type of driving anybody does, I am sure there are plenty of folks out there that know that the Avalon, for example, will get in the mid 30s under the proper conditions, I just happen to see the 27 because I do spend some time on the highway. Like wise there are those that probably see only the 22 mpg overall CR has it rated at,for example and FTM the 18 that the Azera is rated at. So you can tell me about somebody who once got high 20s out of an Azera and it really means nothing, even though I have no doubt that it can be done.
Despite what is about a 20% advantage in FE (22 vs 18) the Avalon, will still outrun an Azera that also happens to have a 10% bigger engine. This is what I'm talking about in terms of 'getting it right' - not that the Korean engine is particularily bad in any way, just not quite there yet - in refinement or in efficiency- although I will grant you that it is a lot closer in the former than the latter. I will also contend the same sort of differences incidentally if you want to compare a Hyundai 'world' 4 banger to one produced by the 'Japan 3', for example.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Despite what is about a 20% advantage in FE (22 vs 18) the Avalon
Not to dispute your beliefs or nit pick, but from the EPA's website (www.fueleconomy.gov), the difference is only 2mpg.
2008 Azera 3.8 17 city, 26 hwy, 20 combined
2008 Avalon 19 city, 28 hwy, 22 combined
You make it seem like the Avalon will just literally pull away from an Azera, once again...statements made by someone that hasn't driven an Azera and is heavily Avalon-biased. My friend, please...before you make any semi-anti-statments on the Azera...go take one for a serious spin. I think, seriously, you would look at the car in a different light.
As far as FE in the Azera...I've hit 29 mpg on the highway and that was cruising at about 65 with 5 passengers and a full trunk. When I'm doing all city driving (daily commuting to work), the mileage is around 17/18 mpg and I'm a bit heavy footed for the most part.
Is Hyundai doing a bad job...hardly. Can they improve...indeed. Give them time, you'll see them catch up. Toyota and Honda have always lead the charge in the FE wars when it comes to the V-6's. I think a large part of what Hyundai does is based on the groundwork that the other two laid. At the same time, they must endure their growing pains as well.
Wait a minute...aren't RWD vehicles supposed to be better at accelerating??? Isn't that one of the reasons why RWD is a prefered platform for a sports sedan???
The FE may not be any better in the Genesis as compared to the Azera, but I can see it being about the same. Like you said...well know more soon enough.
despite a 10% smaller engine and a 10% difference in FE the Avalon will still outaccelerate the Azera .
Can you show a link to where it says 4,000 lbs?
I can guarantee you that the Genesis FE will not be better than Azera, the best case is that both are the same.
Not exactly a runaway, huh Captain?
Wait a minute...the Azera stopped quicker (60-0) @ 121 ft, compared to the 126 ft on the Avalon.
600 ft Slalom run...the Azera averaged 63.8 mph and the Avalon averaged 61.9 mph.
Wow...here's an important figure that's even closer when compared...passing 45-65 mph...Azera needed 3.2 seconds and the Avalon needed 3 seconds flat.
Captain...from a performance standpoint, it would seem that the Azera is TRULY a competitor for the Avalon, moreso than you care to admit or accept.
Here, you can check for yourself, so you can see I didn't make anything up. Like I said, do yourself a favor and hop in an Azera and take it for a spin, and you'll start to understand how any of this is possible.
MotorTrend Comparo: Azera vs Avalon
Louis...I've already conceded that, you're late...as ususal. :sick:
That means by the time the Avalon crosses the 1/4-mile mark, the Azera is 56.4 ft behind (141.09 x 0.4). Given that the length of the Avalon is 16.4 ft that's means the Azera is trailing by almost 3.5 car length by the 1/4-mile mark.
Using the same calculation, it's also about 3 car length when Avalon reaches 60 mph.
So yeah, not exactly a runway but Avalon did smoke the Azera in both acceleration contests.
Boy...if you consider 6.2 vs. 6.8 smoking...you MUST be smoking something. Smoked is when you have one car that can go 0-60 in 5 seconds and another that takes 6.5...that's being smoked. At best, all you can say is the Avalon simply beat the Azera.
Nice try though.
As long as you can see my tail lights then sir, you've got smoked.
My tires start to spin, but then the good ol ESC kicks in.
However, in the terms of Avalon vs. Azera...the way Captain makes it seem, the Azera shouldn't even be THAT close.
I notice that he chose to ignore the whole 600 ft. Slalom course data! LOL I mean, it would indicate that the Azera handles a bit better than the Avalon. Go figure.
I was talking about under normal driving conditions.
FWD is naturally understeered and RWD is naturally more balanced while leaning toward the oversteer side. That's why under daily driving a FWD car should be just as good as the RWD cars but on a track and under extreme driving that's where the difference shows.
Oh...I know, just pointing a an instance, that's all.
Right, right...I'm with you on that.
No, I am not advising racing is okay...
However, the point I was making to el Captain (who seems to think that the Avalon is just so much more superior than the Azera) is that it's actually a closer competitor than I think he wishes to admit. I honestly believe it gives him the heebie jeebies to even consider the idea that a Korean product even comes close to his fine Japanese (American built) vehicle.
Very true, lately it seems as if power and efficiency are going hand in hand. Lets see what the #s are when they are released and then whomever was right can say "I told you so" :shades: .
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
And the ability scale the horsepower way beyone front wheel drive.
I am not pro-anything. I buy whatever gives me the most value and what I conceive to be quality. The 2GR V6 has only one equal in this class of car and that is the Nissan VQ. The smoothness and eagerness to rev is exceptional and it still leads the pack in FE. I am not saying the Hyundai 3.8 is a bad engine, its just not the 2GR.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Have they started the Azera up to find that you can't tell the engine is running? Have they stepped on the gas pedal to find that their head would be crisply snapped back as the car takes off? Have they experienced how smoothly the car moves up through the gears? Have they experienced how lively the car actually accelerates and how easily it does so? The answer is, in most cases, "No." You just have folks voicing opinion and thoughts and then try to argue with someone that actually knows because they've actually driven and been in some of the other cars being compared.
That...is all I'm saying here.
Have they enjoyed the $3,000 savings, superior warranty, etc. etc.?
There is a reason the Avalon has a slight acceleration edge over the Azera: The Avalon's transmission shifts quicker than the Azera's. Same when comparing other models. If you don't believe me, go drive an Avalon and an Azera. There's about a .2 to .3 second difference in the 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd upshifts. So add up the shift times, factor-in the slight weight difference, and that's where the slight acceleration differences come from. Has nothing to due with lack of engine refinement or engineering. Maybe Hyundai will give future cars "snappier" shift programming, or maybe they'll want to keep them a bit slower for other reasons.
As far as MPG is concerned, most people who buy cars are not enthusiasts, and they go by what they see on the "EPA" portion of the window sticker. For the most part, a difference of 2-or-so MPG between the EPA estimates is usually not earth-shattering for many people. We'll just have to wait and see how the future cars actually perform in real life. Keep in mind, some engines continue to get better fuel mileage up to 20,000 miles, and reviewers testing the car at 1,000, 5,000, 10,000 miles are not getting optimal efficiency out of the car at that point.
I bring this up b/c the Genesis was brought up a lot commenting on the RL, and this below about summed up the feelings most had:
"The Hyundai Genesis is gonna kick the RL's [non-permissible content removed] 8 days a week and 6 times on the weekends! I am very disappointed to say the most...."
What do you guys think of the chances the Genesis eating into RL's customers? Hardly a lot to start with but a start regardless for the Genesis to make a name for itself in the luxury segment...
yes it is, and yes most cars (even 50-50 BMWs) do understeer slightly at the limits because it is safer - the reactions required to keep the car under control is intuitive, meaning lifting the throttle and/or braking when you get in ' too deep'. Oversteering cars as you say are rare but can require more throttle to correct the same condition and are therefore not intuitive. Understeering cars will simply 'plow', scrub off speed, and' want' to straighten their paths. Overall I think it has more to do with the weight distribution than where the drive wheels are - those 60-70s RWD 'muscle cars' were also 60% or so front weight biased and also understeering 'nightmares' just like the FWD cars in this group really are, so being RWD is no guarantee of a balanced 'neutral' handling car, there is much more that goes into it. This is something that BMW in particular has succeeded at better than about anybody else in the industry - a 'balanced' and otherwise well engineered car.
Reminds me of the 70s vintage 911s (rear weight biased) - handled phenomenally of course - but were very tricky at the limits and would spin out violently if you didn't know what you doing - damn near killed myself in one - more years ago than I would care to admit.
$3000.00 BTW may be a little low because things like 2 year old Avalons can be worth $4000.00 more than the equivalent Azera (run the numbers on kbb if you don't believe it) - so then the FE bonus is really money saved , isn't it? LOL
I did and I was, and never in any of my hundreds of posts have I ever said otherwise - it is simply not a Avalon (or a Maxima) engine wise. Not to be discouraged though, because that is awfully tall timber. The Azera Limited I did drive was extraordinarily 'soft' - thought I was in an old-fashioned Buick. Keep in mind I'm comparing to my 'Touring' Avalon because I would also tell you that the XLS/Ltd trims of the Avalon are also too soft for my tastes. FE and actual cost of ownership (like most folks I tend to keep a car 4-5 years) are also things that would keep me from buying one.