Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

jaymagic

Hyundai has already gotten me away from the TL, when I got the Azera. I drove a TL before getting the Azera and it's interior size was a stopper for me immediately, compared to the larger Azera. Since navigation was not important to me, it was an easy choice to go with the Azera.

dborth

Re 4907: Looks like Motor Trend didn't research their Genesis information just published, or Hyundai fell asleep in not furnishing the information to MT.

Oh, and on the subject of Hyundai updated informative websites, try this one

http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/azera/azera.aspx

Tell you pals in Korea they should update to reflect that Azera is now available in a 2008 model.

allmet33

Hyundai always lags behind on their website. I mean...you would think with the upcoming Genesis launch...you would think they would have a "coming soom" link on there!!!

joe97

It is there:

http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/availablesoon/Genesis_Sedan.aspx

The Genesis is plastered all over the home page:

https://www.hyundaiusa.com

allmet33

It's actually listed as a concept/future car...

Hey...go click on the video, they make a really good point. Some car companies build cars for people that have more. At Hyundai, they build cars for people that deserve more.

I can go along with that!!!

allmet33

The Genesis video...the guy states that it was created to surpass the benchmarks of the likes of the E-Class and 5-Series.

I wish I could link it, but I can't, however...click the link below and in the upper right hand corner, click on 'Gallery'. Then over to the left, you'll see links that say 'Exterior', 'Interior' & 'Video'...click on 'Video'. After you do that, look to the right hand side and you'll see two above "Genesis Introduction"...click on the one on the right...

Hyundai Genesis

alexstore

Aren't you the same one that said your Max could keep up with a 3-Series in a straight line, but you would see his tail lights in a slalom or windy road

that was me actually

joe97

Yeah, this is the quote from Hyundai on it:

Genesis reduces interior noise levels and improves ride and handling with a stiffer, lighter body structure. The use of high tensile steel in critical areas in the unibody provides Genesis with 12-14 percent higher dynamic torsional rigidity and a lower body structure weight than the BMW 5-series and Mercedes-Benz E-Class – despite having a substantially larger cabin than either of those benchmarks.

And the concept | future section had to do with the inclusion of the concept models such as the Genesis coupe, which will turn into a future/upcoming model, like the sedan

captain2

it was created to surpass the benchmarks of the likes of the E-Class and 5-Series.
Yeah right - and I do have some swampland for you in Arizona - WOW indeed,but you are certainly entitled to believe what you wish.

alexstore

i agree with you and btw what's e class's and BMW's benchmark

dborth

"btw what's e class's and BMW's benchmark"?

Each other.

alexstore

for MB may be, but not for BMW

captain2

never have been able to figure out exactly why MB has taken such a hit on reliability issues but even BMWs (which do better) are known to suffer from some of the consequences of all that electronic sophistication. From a driver's perspective - MBs, IMO, have gotten more competitive in both the Cs and the Es. The E550 at almost 400hp is one helluva machine ( I'm guessing the AMG varaint might get closer to 500?) and the C350 is not too far off a 330/335. . To compare just the engine sophistications of the MB 3.5 V6, the MB and BMW V8s, and of course, that 300hp BMW inline 6 to anything Korean is, of course, ridiculous - although I'm sure those marketing idiots may try. What do those Korean engines compare favorably with? We don't really know much about the V8 yet, but the 3.8 and 3.3 are certainly preferable IMO to any 'Detroit' V6 except for possibly GMs 3.6. An interesting comparison should be - the Genesis 3.8 vs. the G8 3.6, both large RWD sedans with about 300hp - the Genesis more luxurious perhaps but the G8 should be cheaper.

allmet33

Hey...I'm just as amazed as you are. I mean...it's one thing to say you looked to the premium sedans for inspiration when creating a car, but to say that it's been created to surpass such sedans...well, they are certainly setting a high bar for themselves. It can definitely be something that can hurt them or, if successful in backing that statement up...be a good thing.

We'll have to wait and see come the 2nd half of this year.

allmet33

Actually...they are. The only thing is MB's goal is to give a driver the luxury to go along with performance. However...BMW is the performer between the two. However, that's not to say that MB isn't capable of producing performance vehicles. I saw a AMG C63 that was producing 507 hp...nasty lil bugger.

Everyone knows...if you want driving performance, you go for the BMW...just don't expect frills when it comes to the interior. If you want luxury, then you go with the MB...that's how they've always been.

allmet33

You know what Captain...I see the Genesis/G8 being like the E-Class/5-Series. One gives you luxury and the other is more athletic. Actually, from what I've heard...the G8 fully loaded in V8 form will be almost as much as the Genesis V-8, maybe a little less, but I don't think the G8 will be coming with some of the goodies you'll get on the Genesis either.

tjc78

I just had a minute to catch on the last day's postings and had a thought. Aren't people in this price category still thinking about MPG? I mean the G8 and Genesis are great on paper, but, are going to be pretty bad at the pump compared to the V6 varients of similar sedans. With gas really going only one way will these autos be slow sellers just based on MPG? Another thing I noticed is that Hyundai is only promoting the V8 Genesis, is the US definately getting the V6's?

louiswei

the G8 fully loaded in V8 form will be almost as much as the Genesis V-8, maybe a little less

I would say a lot less. A loaded G8 GT will come in around $32k and a loaded V8 Genesis should be close to $40k. However, the G8 will be nowhere near the Genesis in terms of luxury and tech gadgets though.

allmet33

I don't see the V-6 versions of either the G8 or the Genesis being any worse than the other V-6's in their class.

In most cases, when cars are advertised...they usually go with the top model of that car...USUALLY.

tjc78

My point is that IMO the V8s are going to be a "tough sell" in this price class.

However, think about this as well. The 3.8 in the Azera is already a little bit behind the 2GR in the Avalon. Adding about 40HP in a RWD heavier car figures to put it even further behind. Since I am ready for a new car in about a year the Genesis will be something I look at, however, (in V-6 form) if it comes in at 3 - 4 MPG less than my Avalon I may dismiss it. Unless its that good :shades:

allmet33

From what I've seen the Genesis will top out in pricing around $37K...at about a $5K difference and all that you'll get in the Genesis...I think it's justifiable.

From www.pontiacG8.com the GT starts out at $29.995...if you put everything in it as far as available options...I honestly see it being closer to $35K. I mean...you have a premium package (which I see a lot of folks going for), then a sports package on top of that (considering it's the GT...folks will want it to look like a GT, so they'll go for that too). Then...most will opt for a sunroof too. Trust me...I think it'll be more than $32K as you seem to think it'll be.

allmet33

Ummmmm...the Genesis won't be but a couple pounds heavier than the Azera and that 40 hp will make up for that. In terms of acceleration...the 3.8L V-6 version of the Genesis will probably be about as fast as the current Azera. The one I don't agree with is the 3.6L variation of the Genesis...what's the use???

The V-8 will be a tough sell, but maybe not as tough as you may think as I still see V-8 versions of a lot of things with paper tags on the street. If they are sold, people will still buy them.

In terms of FE...the V-8 will probably be in the mid-upper teens city and upper teens-maybe 20 on the highway. The 3.8 V-6...will probably turn in the same numbers that the current Azera is seeing.

For the money and what the Genesis offers (laundry list of standard features), you can't touch anything made by Lexus, Infiniti, MB or BMW for that matter...you can't.

The V-8 can't be dying a slow death for Toyota to jump out there and put two different ones in it's new Sequoia (which looks awsome might I add). However...if you want the top of the line Platinum package one...they start out around $55K!!! :surprise:

louiswei

The fully loaded G8 GT will come in at $32.895 MSRP.

Here's the source: Completely loaded Pontiac G8 will cost just $32,895

As for the V8 Genesis to top out around $37k, I'll believe it when I see it.

allmet33

Louis...you see the date of that??? I doubt highly that if the Pontiac website has the GT starting out at $29,995...having it top out @ $32,895 is a stretch.

2009 Hyundai Genesis

joe97

Well, if the new Sonata is anything to go by, which features the second generation of I4s (Theta) and V6s (Lambda), the mileage actually improved (further) when compared the current MPG, which is stellar already and among the leaders, even with higher hp.

As both of V6s in the Genesis will feature the second generation with higher hp and improved F/E, I would not be surprised if the mileage remains the same or better, similar to the Sonata. The current Azera is only 2 miles per gallon of its pace from Avalon's per EPA so the Genesis should be very respectable.

riker2

My profile might be interesting for people to consider. My situation is very unusual, but I think you can see whey the car might be attractive to me.

I live in Philadelphia in the historic district. I have a 200 year old colonial house without a garage. Although there are covered lots a couple blocks away, I usually end up parking on the street, as do most of my neighbors. On my block there's an Audi 6, Volvo S80, Jagaur XJ, Mercedes S550 etc. I have a Chrysler 300C that I bought loaded the week they came out in 2004.

Everyone on the street bitches about the little scratches and dings from bad suburban parallel parkers, tourists leaning on our parked cars and the general wear and tear of a vehicle always being parked outside.

Our household income is $250,000+ and we don't carry debt. But...I don't feel like spending $65,000 on a car that's going to be bumped around, sat on and found on a Sunday morning with an empty wine glass sitting on the hood.

My work is local, and I tend to drive a lot of visiting artists and local board types around. I also go to a lot of special events with "arrival" valet situations with meet and greets.

If I can spend $40,000 on a car that will be comfortable for me and the people I travel with, look the part of what others are driving, and contain all of the amenities of far more expensive cars, It seems like a natural choice for me.

But...I've tested an Infiniti M45 twice in the past several weeks. I'm holding off on buying it until I get a real look at the Genesis. I saw it at the Philly car show Friday night, and it looked perfectly fine. Not exciting, but very attractive, with a balanced and pulled together demeanor.

If I end up buying the Genesis, I think there will be some kind of market for it. If on the other hand, I drive over to the Infiniti dealership, and spend a lot more money for a loaded M45, Hyundai may be in for a tough sell.

I'm completely open to a non-luxury brand offering luxury. But it has to deliver. As much as the 300C has been fun, it doesn't have the real feel or amenities of a luxury car.

I'll post back when I've made the deal.

captain2

the Hyundai 3.8 is no wonder especially from a FE perspective , the Azera testing (CR) at 4 mpg LESS than the Avalon for example. The Genesis with more power, weight and because it has some extra frictions due to the RWD might figure to be another mpg or 2 less than an already low number. This even more than than the brand name, is likely what will keep me out of a Genesis.

captain2

at about a $5K difference and all that you'll get in the Genesis...I think it's justifiable
allmet - you better be careful you are beginning to sound like an Avalon buyer!

kdshapiro

I wouldn't get a new car to park on the streets as I'm very particular. It doesn't bother me in the least my subaru gets dinged. It's very fast, inexpensive, reliable and has AWD. One reason I was happy to get rid of my BMW is the agada from inconsiderate door openers. If I were in your shoes I would be driving a used Accord and would be happy. (No comparison, BMW wins)

captain2

for Toyota to jump out there and put two different ones in it's new Sequoia
what's a Sequoia, a truck, have to with anything? These are CARS. The Avalon/Maxima/Azera/Taurus all do quite well on more fuel efficient V6s and still don't leave much behind in the power dept. Makes you wonder, instead, on the motvations of the 300C/ImpalaSS buyer. The G8GT as well as the Genesis should suffer the same fate as gas prices go up even more.

louiswei

Louis...you see the date of that

Yes I did, but check the links, one of the links has the official GM price sheet.

Regardless of the date the price sheet should still be correct.

By the way, to save you some trouble here's the official price sheet from GM

allmet33

LOL You don't have to worry about that...I already have MY Avalon!

allmet33

We shall see, Louis...we shall see. I don't expect the Genesis, fully loaded to top out much over $37K. I think even Hyundai knows better than to push it to the $40K mark...not yet anyway.

However, like I said earlier...for what you would get in the Genesis, a lil more power, a longer list of standard features, more technology...I would certainly pay the few thousand more for the Genesis, rather than settle for the G8. On the flip side, if I were a tuner and interested in tricking the car out...the G8 might be the more appealing option as I'm sure there will be aftermarket stuff for it to push the HP up as well as do other things as well to increase performance.

allmet33

Captain, I was merely pointing out the fact that Toyota isn't worried about a V-8 suffering on the market. Once again...a point you simply missed.

louiswei

I think even Hyundai knows better than to push it to the $40K mark...not yet anyway.

You do know that the Veracruz tops off at $38,195 right? I don't expect to see the top of the line V8 Genesis to come under that. It might not break the $40k mark but IMO it'll come mighty close to it.

As for the difference between G8 and Genesis I completely agree with you. If one wants luxury with performance then go with Genesis, if one wants pure performance on a budget then it's G8 all the way.

I think the Genesis is going to eat into 300's sales and G8 to eat into Charger's, at the end the biggest loser might be Chrysler/Dodge.

tjc78

"I was merely pointing out the fact that Toyota isn't worried about a V-8 suffering on the market"

Maybe not in the truck market, but you won't ever see a V8 in the Avalon or Camry. GM/Chrysler and now Hyundai feel the need for V8s in these sub 40K sedans and I just don't see the point. Most people in this price class are still looking at FE. Not that I wouldn't appreciate 375 HP, but, I also feel that for the modest increase in acceleration that its not worth it Time will tell with the Genesis, I contend that I will seriously consider the 3.8 V6 model. However, in more departments than one it will have to be considerably better than my Avalon for me to buy (lease) it. Lets all just stay tuned and see more specifics as they become available. Heck, we still don't have final pricing, FE, or option availability. Another thing that could possibly be a deal breaker is saving all the good toys for the V8 model.

rpfingsten

I have to agree, while added HP is still a thrill, even for an old coot like me, the price at the pump still helps to dictate how I spend my money in the car market. For me, it was finding a blend of luxury, power and decent FE. I thought the Avalon did that, that's why there's one in my garage right now. And I gotta tell you, I traded in a Cadillac with a V-8 Northstar.. If memory serves me correctly, the Northstar cranked out 275 horses, while the Avy cranks out 268. Not much difference there, and with the Avy weighing less, that more than makes up for the 7 pony difference. The truth is the Avy has plenty of power even for the average consumer. After driving the big 8 for a couple of years, the 6 banger in my Toyota dosn't leave me wishing there were two more pistons under the hood. JMO

Roland
07 XLS

cobrazera

Aren't you the same one that said your Max could keep up with a 3-Series in a straight line, but you would see his tail lights in a slalom or windy road
Max, Avalon, Azera will all keep up with a 328 ( in a straight line ) which has 230HP, but not the 300HP 335 model.

tjc78

Why do we insist on comparing semi-lux large cruising cars to a 335? I know that at any price I wouldn't trade my Avalon for a 3 series. Its just not the class of car for me. I also know plenty of people driving a 3/G/IS that wouldn't be caught dead driving my "land yacht". IMO to compare the driving dynamics of a small, tight, RWD sedan to a floaty, FWD large car is nuts!

dborth

Re 4946: Why do we insist on comparing semi-lux large cruising cars to a 335?

I agree, way off topic for "mainstream full size".

kdshapiro

I know that at any price I wouldn't trade my Avalon for a 3 series

You are right it's ridiculous. But I agree, at any price I wouldn't trade in my 3 series for an Avalon.

allmet33

Exactly, but they won't take one over $40K...not yet anyway.

I agree with you on which cars will see a bite taken out of their sales...definitely.

allmet33

Well...like the video on the Genesis site said, "...for people that deserve more."

I think most folks that frequent this forum, if they did get a Genesis...would opt for the mid-level with the 3.8 V-6

Well...when it comes to options, I don't think we have to worry. Hyundai packages a mean deal where you really only have to decide if you want a moon roof and a few other things...most everything else would be standard on it.

tjc78

Hopefully you are right. I would hate to see all the best options be limited to the V8 model. However, with most manufacturers that is the case.

joe97

The same reason you won't see a V8 in the Avalon or Camry is the same reason you won't see a V8 in a(n) Azera or Sonata. The Genesis crosses over, however; in the sense it differenitates from the large FWD sedans. More importantly, it builds street cred for the car and the brand. The same reason the V6(I6)/V8 combination exists in cars like the E class, 5er is the same reason the Genesis has those powerplants. The V8 brings the crowd, while the V6 drives the sales.

This is why I feel the Genesis lineup is well stacked. You've got:

one V8 with 375hp
two V6s, one nearing 300hp, and the other around 265

joe97

Like you said, it's b/c the V8 Northstar only pumps out 275hp. I submit RWD with V8 performance in the negiborhood of 350-400hp, a lot more fun than FWD V6 250-300hp

allmet33

I think the one model that would suffer in terms of option packages would be the entry level Genesis with the 3.6 V-6. I think they would treat it like the Azera GLS with the 3.3. Basically...a level of trim that allows you to step foot in the car, but no frills.

I think the V-8 model will have option groups that would add in the moon roof, back up camera and 20" rims. Other than that...I see most of what has been described about the car as being stadard fare. Well...except for the 17 speaker Lexicon sound system...I think they may have that one for the V-8 model and a regular Infinity sound system for the lower models...however, I could be wrong on that.

Also...the nav unit could come standard on the V-8 and be an option for the V-6. Who knows...there's so much they can do with that.

joe97

Yeah the mid-trim should drive the most deliveries.

allmet33

I agree completely. I see the V-8 going to those that WANT a V-8, but don't what a hefty car note to go along with it. I mean...some may feel the money saved on getting the Genesis with the V-8 would mean they can afford to keep gas in it!

captain2

GM/Chrysler and now Hyundai feel the need for V8s in these sub 40K sedans and I just don't see the point
they feel the need because they can't seem to get the smaller engines right (the GM HF 3.6 seems to be an exception to this) - so let's attack the problem with displacement - big ole torquey V8s that obviously must leave something to be desired from a FE standpoint. Something that 'Detroit' has been doing ever since dropping a small block V8 into a Ford Falcon over 40 years ago.
I, for one, am not going to be impressed with 375 hp or whatever - tell me instead that an engine (regardless of size or # of cylinders or even fuel type) will get the 27 mpg overall I get on my 280/268hp Avalon and still give me the 6-7 second 0-60s (or better) AND DRIVE WELL - then I'll be impressed. As it is, there is certainly a market for those big ole V8s for those that remember the 60s/early 70s fondly - and also a market for those of us that grew out of it, and further understand that there is no 'need' for them as you say. It is possible to have our cake...