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Mercury Grand Marquis as entry level luxury? Sure, whatever floats your boat.
I'll take whatever on Wikipedia with A LOT grains of salt since you do know that everyone can go in and edit right?
Betcha I didn't have to.
No, it's real obvious to anybody reading this tread for any period of time. The thinly veiled put downs are a constant. I'm really getting tired of the pontificating.
Hyundai Mobis
More likely than not, simply an insulation against the weak American dollar although I do not know whether the Korean 'won' is holding its value better or not. The Euros have done this as well as the Japanese- this should be expected if Hyundai in this case wants to compete more effectively over here. Kudos to them and any company that puts Americans to work.
What will be more interesting is whether the Koreans will be able to hold quality using American labor, many of these plants (the Hyundai plant in Alabama, the Toyota truck plant in Texas etc) are state of the art, brand spanking new, and obviously non-union. The Sonata has improved recently 'despite' Alabama assembly, while the Korea built Azera is heading in the opposite direction. And Toyota has been making quality cars in Kentucky for many years, and continues to despite some problems handling ballooning demand. There does, however, remain a core of autobuyers that do think that there is a definite quality difference with those vehicles built over here vs. those built in their native countries.
I do see a plant being built for production of the Veracruz and Genesis as those are the largest vehicles they make. By having a plant here, it would cut down on shipping costs.
There you go again captain, another gratuitous, no facts, dog shot, when the evidence is to the contrary, lol. I notice after you dismissed the Strategic Value Award for 2007 given to the Azera over the Avalon as being paid for my the manufacturer, that you chose to then ignore the fact that Toyota had the most vehicles of any manufacturer (20 including the Avalon), that made their value list, while Hyundai only had 2. Apparently all the money that Toyota gave them was still not enough to convince them that the Avalon was a better value than the Azera. The award doesn't mean the Avalon is not a better car as you might define it, just that an independent judge finds the Azera to be a better value.
Legit criticism on this forum certainly has its place, but statements which are not only not supported, but in fact are refuted by the evidence, pretty much says where the posters are coming from and how much credence to give their arguments.
Research any 'cost to own' statistics you would like and then maybe you'll discover (horror of horrors) that 'cheap to buy' does NOT necessarily mean 'value'. 5 year costs for a Avalon XLS is $38170 BTW, the Azera Ltd. is only slightly HIGHER at $38587 - source: Intellichoice. I think you need to send them a nasty email, for having that kind of 'nerve'.
tell me about how or why 'Intellichoice' is off base or how or why CRs 1 million auto reliability surveys are all wrong - then I, for one, will be happy to believe precisely what somebody called 'Strategic Vision' says - right after they prove to me that there is 'nothing it in for them'. :P
Page 156: Genesis "promises to shake up the entry-lux sedan rank."
What I find interesting is the above comments of allmet3, one of the more vociferous Hyundai supporters. If you substitute "Genesis" for "Phaeton" and "Hyundai" for Volkswagon, even he would be making the point that the Genesis will not sell as a luxury car (Granted, we're talking perhaps another order of magnitude in price with the Phaeton. But Volkswagon certainly has a higher "quality" recognition level than Hyundai so I think the analogy applies)
Another argument against the luxury label is his statement: "Another key folks are leaving out concerning luxury...it's a feeling that you get...perception." Exactly. That perception is not yet there for the Hyundai brand name.
Maybe a better label would be "a luxury Hyundai", as oxymoron as that might sound to some....
The Genesis is going to be sold as a Hyundai in the US; much like the Phaeton was sold as a Volkswagen here.
I know that for 30-35 K, I will most definitely consider the Genesis. For 65-75 K, I would definitely look at all the other treats I could get for that kind of money.
Don't forget, you could buy his and her Genesises for the same price.
But, I'm jumping ahead. While I think the Genesis will receive strong initial reviews, I recognize that it could also be the dumping ground of industry pans.
That will be the true test: How well has it realized its aspirations.
Near lux / entry lux, grill with / without H, Hyundai dealers vs. seperate network, who cares? Let Hyundai ship a maxed 3.8 and v8 Genesis to the attention of Motor Trend for a pre US launch evaluation. If the product is as good as many people think it will be, MT would be a great source of information as to Korea hitting a home run or striking out.
The local newspaper received a report from the local C-D-J dealer who said Chrysler Corp. told him that they are going to eliminate all duplicate vehicles in the three lines. Then, they will eliminate 1/3 of dealers with the result of having one C-D-J dealer per area.
I think Ford needs to do this with Mercury. Either phase it out or have combined Ford-Merury-Lincoln dealerships with real differences between the makes.
Will be surprised if GM does not drop one or two of its brands within the next 5-10 years.
BTW, Motor Trend did an article, May 2007, on how impressed they are with what they have seen and been told about the Genesis. They refer to it as "Hyundai Builds V-8 Lexus Fighter" and classifies it as "sport-luxury sedan." The luxury designation is done, but now they need to test it for performance and "sport."
I think the whole luxury vs. not luxury discussion is beyond debate. Everybody has their opinion and everyone is right. Also, some luxury brands sell small econo- boxes in Europe. Does that make them luxury cars? Does it make the plush cars the brand sells over here non-luxury?
Exactly-
this from this mornings Houston Chronicle from their weekly 'auto' section and a question and answer column in which reader questions are answered by a couple of supposed car experts named 'Tom and Ray'. The column is called 'Click and Clack talk cars'.
The question: from reader that apparently thinks that he wants to buy a 70s vintage Plymouth Arrow for his 16 year old son and asks where could he find one.
The answer: The Arrow was 'real junk' and '99.9% of them of these cars have already been crushed , shipped to Korea as scrap metal , and sent back as Hyundais.
Now maybe these guys are just trying to be funny, and it certainly borders on gross irresponsibility and ignorance, BUT isn't this indicative of the type of attitudes that are still out there that are further going to make it very very difficult to sell a $40000 'luxury' Hyundai?
Too bad, the 07 Azera wins out with this company. www.strategicvision.com
Of course, the automotive area is not the only segment they look at and report on for value.
We all look for sources to back our opinions. Nothing wrong with that, and it keeps the discussions a little more real. Different sources will look at or research an issue in different ways and it seems reasonable that depending on their criteria, they may have differing results. Having had an Avalon and having considered one before getting my Azzy, I clearly think they are a great value and I car I would be happy to own. But, my choice was the 07 Azzy and I think it is the better value, by a slim margin. For 08, maybe the Avalon is ahead, or perhaps the Taurus, or some other car. But for 07, I think the Azzy wins out. And, clearly we both have sources on each side. Strategic Vision, JD Powers, CR, Intellichoice, and probably several others.
PS for the Avalon in this case, to be even in the same league as an Azera from a cost of operation point of view is kinda amazing - because it does cost a few thousand more to buy. Of course, the same thing applies, for example, when you are talking about an Accord costing more then a Sonata - it really doesn't.
we'll part ways on this one as well - why would Toyota pay to get on a 'value' list when 1) they already can sell every car they can make, 2) the award just reoinforces what everybody 'thinks' is true anyway and 3) they are not likely to promote the fact that they 'won' the award in the first place. Doubt very seriously that the Honda or Toyota execs. in California really give a damn about Strategic Vision or even FTM JDP - they don't need to!
Then why is Toyota trumpeting the Tundra's Motor Trend Truck of the Year award everytime I turn on the TV? :confuse:
Hyundai has a steady progression leading up to the Genesis. There's not gaping hole in the pricing of it's vehicles.
You're basing perception on name, my use of the word perception is the feeling you get LOOKING at the vehicle or acutally SITTING in the vehicle. The fact that the name 'Hyundai' doesn evoke thoughts of luxury just lends itself to the lack of open-mindedness folks truly have these days.
Really...I think the problem is that there is just a lot of hating going on. I mean...Hyundai, how dare they come out with a LUXURY type vehicle when the likes of Toyota, Nissan and Honda must market a luxury vehicle under different identities (Lexus, Infiniti and Acura). It's just totally beyond logical comprehension that a lowly, upstart auto maker could possibly be THAT progressive in it's thinking to even consider thrusting an affordable luxury vehicle upon the public. :P
You know what...I truly LOVE the fact that Hyundai is doing this. This is exactly the type of thinking that will get them out of the shadows of their past. This is the mentality of "Go big, or go home." Hyundai doesn't have time to sit back on it's laurels and play conservative...they want to shake things up. Well...considering all the back and forth generated in this forum alone...they've succeeded
easy - because pick-ups including the Tundra are not selling very well right now and further Toyota's position in the land of F150s and Silverados is inferior to their market position in the car business. They don't need to 'sell' Avalons or Camrys they do need a lot of help selling big ole gas guzzling trucks. I believe that both the F150 and the Silverado each outsell the Camry about 2 to 1. Sure do see a lot of Tundras, though, down here in the truck capital of the world (Texas). But, I will grant you that Motor Trend, in particular, that likes to grant their TOY and COTY awards on the basis of 'significance', is certainly keeping an eye on potential ad revenues when they make their decisions.
Had Toyota not taken a whole year to release the Tundra, it would have been fun seeing the Tundra pitted against the then 2007 winner Silverado GMT900. This year, pending the F-150 and Ram both go on sale this year (believe they are), looking forward to the battle.
*Naturally, this would exclude narrow-minded folks
There are a lot of intangible benefits selling this under the Hyundai brand - along with the Coupe, elevation of the brand is for near certain; not to mention the increased awareness of the public, which would lead to higher traffic in the showroom, and higher traffic generally leads to sales. That's the exact challenge Hyundai faces, they know, and we know (well, most here) their products are damn good, but it's up to the consumers to find out the goods. This process won't transform overnight, be we are already seeing a good progression of it. Toyota, Honda and others went through similar situations...
Or those that really understand this for what it is.
and perhaps, neither does Car of the Year? There are definitely fewer 'significant' entries in the annual TOY- so much so that you can pretty much project the 'winners' - like you say.
I guess the CTS won the COTY edging out the Malibu and the new Accord - something that surprised me a bit because you will probably see 20 or 30 Malibus and/or Accords on the road to every one CTS. The CTS is definitely something that GM can hang its hat on, but how can you get any more 'significant' than the 500-600000 Accords and Malibus that will be sold?
Exactly what they should do - increase the price (and change the name) if the car is even half what they seem to think it is. A very important part of acceptance into 'luxury' club we're talking about here is also the cost of getting you in!
This would not be something that I would expect a potential Genesis buyer to understand.
This is why I say what I said. I'd have no problem taking the same car without the 20K premium charge on the badge. Hey, I understand, if one feels the need for the emblem to be more imporant, all power to them.
That may be the case in your part of the country, but where I live, Toyota is offering $1000 rebates on top of your best deal and/or 0% for 3 yrs on Camrys (hybrid model included!) and Avalons!
Now maybe these guys are just trying to be funny, and it certainly borders on gross irresponsibility and ignorance, BUT isn't this indicative of the type of attitudes that are still out there that are further going to make it very very difficult to sell a $40000 'luxury' Hyundai?
Wow, that's quite a stretch even for you to pull a Genesis slam out of that article. Every car on the road is made out of old Arrows, Darts, K cars, etc. It's what all steel companies use to some degree in the steel making process.
Of course you wouldn't expect them to understand this because they can't very knowledgeable about anything involving cars if they are considering a... gasp... Hyundai!! They only market to the poor misinforming souls who haven't had the benefit of your enlightened posts on all things inferior regarding Hyundai. You certainly provide entertainment here. Makes me want to sell my Avalon.
I didn't write the article or make the comment- these 'Click & Clack' guys write a obviously irreverant column that appears in newspapers all over the country. Not a Genesis 'slam' at all - the actual car (like the Azera) may turn up to be well worth it, from a strictly 'what you get for your money' perspective.
What buyers understand is it's not the emblem it's what is behind the emblem and what has consistently been behind the emblem. And yes, what is behind the emblem means something to me. You have to feel comfortable with your purchase.
Genesis under non-luxury brand = 30K
The same Genesis under a luxury brand = 30K + 20K, for example
I am pretty sure there are people out there who would love to pick up a nice pre-owned Avalon.
Glorified Veracruz: $30k to $45k
Genesis Coupe: $28k to $38k
Seems to me that's a pretty good lineup for a newly formed luxury division. In this case they'll even have one more model than Lexus and Acura when they were launched.
I would also think handling should be at least good with five-link front and rear suspensions.
They could make it special edition in black-on-black and call it the Moonlight Sonata.
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If you look at invoice price on several different websites,you will find Toyota and Lexus discount their cars the least when it comes to TMV.
That's why I no longer buy Toyotas, unless the dealer discounts all the add ons.
2009 maxima