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Comments
Some of the current government subsidies for PV install are, IMO, somewhat misguided. The global demand for PV panels is far outstripping manufacturing capacity and these subsidies are only agravating the situation. The result is that over the last 2 years the cost per watt has actually increased. The positive side is that manufacturers are increasing capacity at a rapid pace but this might have occurred even with slightly lower subsidies.
The comment that millions of EV owners charging their batteries is going to overtax the grid is unfounded. For one thing it will probably take at least 10 years for there to even be 1 million EVs on the road. Also, the people that operate our nation's electricity grid welcome these vehicles. I don't pretend to understand how this works but apparently it creates the potential for load levelling, which has a positive impact. Not to mention your vehicle can now be an emergency back-up power supply for your home.
How are the PV systems being subsidized by the State? Also, are the PV systems being installed supposed to fill all of that homeowners needs (regular domestic use + EV) or just reduce daytime demand on the power grid.
"Also, the people that operate our nation's electricity grid welcome these vehicles."
I think I can understand this.
Most recharging of EV's would occur at night. Typically, the demand to the system is currently much lower at night than during the day (when AC systems are running full blast, businesses are operating, etc.).
Under the current system, the power plants are constantly cycling up during the day to meet the higher demands and then cycling back down to a reduced level to meet the lower nightime demands. Perhaps the plants don't operate as efficiently as they cycle up and down?
Hadn't considered the possibility of using the EV as a back-up power supply for the house.
One of the nice things about this program is that it is scheduled to be phased out over 10 years with the idea being that is the amount of time it will take for solar energy to be cost effective. Whether or not that ends up being the case it is positive to see government programs that aren't designed to last indefinitely.
I'd say my biggest concern regarding the Tesla and all the other EVs is how these new Li-ion batteries will hold up. I know they've done extensive testing regarding safety and number of cycles but what about aging? My understanding is that Li-ion batteries lose storage capacity purely as a function of time, regardless of whether they are even being used. I'm not sure how well you can test this in the lab and I haven't read of any breakthroughs along these lines. If the Tesla, which is advertised at 250 miles per charge, can only get 150 miles per charge after 3 years I suspect there will be some unhappy owners. I hope this doesn't turn out to be the case but I think that only time will tell.
If we can't talk about how the electricity is generated in an EV car discussion, where CAN we talk about it? Are you saying that one simply CAN'T talk about electrical production ANYWHERE ON EDMUNDS?
Hmmm, well on the surface it certainly sounds like a reasonable plan. I'm not quite sold on PAYING for the plan through utility surcharges (in other words, millions of people who aren't seeing the benefit are subsidizing it for the other million homes who do). But, I suppose that's the nature of virtually ANY gov subsidy.
I like having the PV system tied into the grid.
I'm glad there's a term limit on the plan. After all the hoopla I've heard/read lately considering how PVs are supposed to get more and more cost effective, this is a good way for the industry to either put up or shut up.
Another benefit of this plan is that should/when an EV industry starts going more mainstream, the additional power generation doesn't HAVE to be either new power plants or PV systems at the same residence as the EV.
I know it's a very wide, very fuzzy line, but we have to keep it automotive related. The post that prompted my reminder with the question of cleaning up "dirty" coal powered plants is an example. While it's tangentially related to electric vehicles, there's not a lot in that question that has anything to do with the cars.
All I'm saying is that we have to keep it centered on the automotive. This is not the place to go off into coal vs nuclear. Those discussion on oil dependence have the same kind of problem when they swing off into side issues that aren't in our baliwick either.
I know, clear as mud!
If this program is successful I think everyone will derive some benefit. New powerplant construction probably would have resulted in new charges. If these million PV homes generating electricity for the grid can delay this then it might be somewhat of a wash for those not taking advantage of the program. Plus it accomplishes the same load leveling that charging EVs at night would. Only it does so by adding capacity during peak usage rather than adding load during off peak. The beauty of it is that the highest peaks tend to occur on the hottest, sunniest days when these homes will generate the most electricity.
I know. That was supposed to be a joke, since they kicked us off the Tesla thread.
That is what the icon with the blinky headlight was supposed to convey!
Ummmm.....YES!
I took the comment regarding 'dirty' coal-powered plants completely different. I had the impression the post was referring to upgrading older 'dirtier' coal-plants to newer, cleaner standards; not necessarily a sweeping generalization that "coal=dirty=sux".
The problem (as I see it anyway) is that any general discussion of electric cars can either assume that EVs will ALWAYS be a tiny, dinky little niche market in which case increased electrical production simply isn't an issue....OR, that EVs will (eventually) be mainstream.
Assuming the second scenario, we MUST have some discussion regarding where the electricity will (eventually) come from. Discussing the power production IS automotively related because the NEED for the additional power is driven (for the purposes of this thread) by future EVs.
Believe me, I'm not TRYING to be a PITA; sometimes it just comes natural....
I figure some early guidance, and a reminded that the topic title is Electric VEHICLES, shold help us not wander too far off.
A bit of drift and sidebars into related topics is natural and OK, as long as we don't go completely off the reservation.
It is very possible that personal transportation will take its first fundamental shift in almost 100 years (away from oil). The viability and cleanliness of the electric grid is one of two issues that will make or break a wholesale switch to electric from ICE (batteries is the other). I would vote that discussion as applicable to an auto forum.
They've had two articles in recent weeks regarding Tesla, the inventor not the Roadster. One had to do with what they called his "Black Magic" Touring Sedan. The other his works in wireless energy transmission.
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=1062
http://pesn.com/2006/08/03/9500295_wireless_transmission/
I can't help wonder if there is a relationship. If this "Black Magic" car actually existed was it being powered by energy being transmitted wirelessly? If something like this is possible then battery storage capacity becomes somewhat of a non-issue. It seems not completely outside the realm of possibility.
Thanks
http://www.teslatech.info/ttmagazine/v1n4/valone.htm
BTW, this really is relevant when it comes to the discussion of EVs, pros and cons, because the biggest con involves the limitations of the power supply for the electric motors.
While reading the articles I kept feeling like there was a shoe hanging somewhere that was about to drop. I can understand not having faith in a technology if no-one can explain the downside (negative results). What I don't understand is why we haven't allowed any large scale testing that would sufficiently prove that the technology does or does not work. After all, the technology either does work or it doesn't. There shouldn't be so much controversy that people without any special interest would actively work against trying something new. It seems unconscionable that we must rely on other countries to lead the way when the US has the greater need and would reap the greatest benefits!
It's called microwaves.
And it's perfectly safe at low power levels, but tends to FRY things when jacked up to the levels needed to transmit power to run EVs.
Conversion of wireless energy into useful work will probably occur right after we can successfully convert a Kansas tornado into useful work. Money would probably be better spent on superconductors or something with a known history of limited success.
Agreed. We may as well wish for the ability to suck all the naturally occuring electrical energy out of the atmosphere for useful work.
This has nothing to do with microwaves or harnessing tornadoes. It may very well be bogus science. However, Tesla's credentials should afford him the benefit of further research.
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http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6290392/
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Basically, the Chinese haven't much choice. They know there won't be enough oil to go around.
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Right around that time, I remember noticing that some Chinese Lithium-Ion batteries were becoming available to EV hobbyists like me (I drive a very old electric car.)
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Well, I just looked again this week, and these batteries have gotten really good, and really cheap. Check out this link:
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http://www.everspring.net/product-battery.htm
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If you look at the comparison chart on that page, they are claiming 1100 charge cycles (twice as good as the batteries in the Tesla) and a price/watt comparable to old-fashioned lead-acid batteries. That would put a 200-mile range battery pack somewhere around $5000. That is CHEAP, folks. 200 miles times 1100 charges means a 220,000 mile battery life!
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As to where this is leading, I found this Chinese electric car, boasting 'breakthrough Chinese Lithium-ion technology' apparently about to be imported to the US:
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http://www.milesautomotive.com/products_xs200.html
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It gets 200 miles to the charge, 80mph top speed, and an MSRP of $28500. Once the importer gets his certification and crash testing paid for, it's my guess that this car can get VERY cheap. Other Chinese EVs will doubtless follow.
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The next question: Is this even on Detroit's radar? Should it be?
The claims by that battery manufacturer are almost too good to be true. I'm a big proponent of EVs so when I hear about these battery breakthroughs I very much want to believe them. The thing is I've been hearing these amazing claims for the past few years and have yet to see any real world applications. I'll remain optimistic but with some degree of skepticism until I see the actual product with its capabilities verified.
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Here's someone who has been using the Thunder Sky lithium batteries for a year (not sure if it is exactly the same product as what they are selling now):
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http://www.speedace.info/lithium_ion_electric_car.htm
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Another entry in the 'interesting battery technology' department is Firefly Energy. They have a new take on the old lead-acid battery that gives it NIMH-like performance at a lead-acid price:
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http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/01/firefly_energy_.html
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This one could turn out to be vapor, but I hope not - I like it.
That firefly article was also interesting. 170 watt hours per kilogram is better than the NiMH batteries currently being used in hybrids. In the Toyota RAV4 EV the 28 kWh battery pack weighed a little over 900 lbs. Using batteries with this technology the weight would be less than 400 lbs.
I don't currently drive an EV but have made up my mind that my next car will be electric. I also plan on having a solar charging station. It won't be cheap or cost effective but at least I'll feel like I am no longer part of the problem. Not every decision has to be justified in terms of dollars and cents. For instance, I spend thousands of dollars every year on taking a vacation. Hardly a good investment from a financial perspective but still worth every penny.
Vacations, for their restorative powers, have been shown in thousands of studies to actually be more than "cost-effective" and one of the factors crucial to good work performance. That is why most major corporations require employees to take them.
If these guys get their battery in an EV, it would be a good thing. 60 MPG and 60 miles per charge.
Automotive application
LTC currently offers a battery system that powers an hybrid electric vehicle up to 50 miles per gallon. The company is constantly developing new innovations enabling their technology to break into the next frontier.
A leading contender in the hybrid electric vehicle (HEV) race, LTC is working in conjunction with an automotive manufacturer to develop a high-power battery management system designed to run a four-passenger HEV capable of 60 MPG, with a range of 60 MPC in electrical mode with zero emissions. This will be the furthest distance traveled by standard production line vehicle.
"The HEV battery will produce 12 kWh, which is about 100 percent more than what is on the market today for a comparable size battery," said Brandt.
I am considering building an EV and am looking for the most practical power source.
And to the writer who seams to think California wasn't ready for an EV a lot of EV1 owners would beg to differ.
http://ev1-club.power.net/
Thanks;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_vehicle
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http://www.everspring.net/product-battery.htm
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EV hobbyists have been able to experiment with versions of the Thunder Sky batteries for a few years now - but I think the low price is new. If you look at the chart on that page, the batteries now have a price per watt comparable to old-fashioned lead-acid batteries. If the data on the chart is correct, you could build a 200-mile range pack for somewhere around $5000 (not including charging and battery management, which could up the price a bit.) With an 1100 charge lifetime, that's a pack life of 220,000 miles!
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I don't have direct experience with these; but I know that charging Li-Ion batteries has to be done correctly, otherwise they can be dangerous. I'm pretty sure the Thunder Sky batteries are in this car, which will be imported here next year.:
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http://www.milesautomotive.com/products_xs200.html
http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2006/01/eestor_ultracap.html
In this particular case I am more than a little skeptical. I've recently read about cutting edge research coming out of MIT involving nanotechnology that allows greater surface area in ultracapacitors. In the lab they still haven't come all that close to achieving the energy storage capacity of a battery. The people involved do however think it is possible but probably 10 years off.
http://tyler.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/3/29/1849708.html
From the press release:
"This is a very sophisticated electric car, with 250 to 300 miles of range,” Richard Weir, CEO, president and co-founder of EEStor said. “It’ll take a full electrical charge in about the time it takes to gas up a regular car. Just plug it up for a few minutes and you’re off.” ... “This is just a preview of what’s to come. We have another major announcement for May. But seeing is believing!” he said."
Indeed. May has come and gone. Where's the follow-up announcement?
WHAT????
I'm not an electrical engineer but just out of curiousity, how many kW would be expended driving 250 miles? Now, what would the voltage and amperage need to be for the recharging station to dump THAT MUCH electrical energy back into the batteries in just a few minutes? I mean, the electrical energy needed to move a 2000 lb. vehicle at highway speeds for 250 miles is NOT a piddling amount of energy. And we're talking about dumping that amount of energy into a battery in just a few minutes?
Yeah, 300 miles, 55 MPH, lots of coasting.... no AC, no nothing. :P
I too shall join the waiting.
Granted, you would not be doing this at home! Charging at home would still take a few hours.
50KWH is about the size battery pack you would use to get a driving range of about 200 miles at 75mph.
That's just my personal preference. I realize there are many who prefer the rustic, spartan life.....