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Is This the "Day of the Diesel?"
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You will notice that the calculator shows, given the fuel prices I entered, no fuel savings by buying a diesel. And, you can buy a lot of spark plugs and oil filters with $10K.
What will the extra maintenance costs be for the topping off the urea tank in some Bluetec diesels? I am assuming that people will not use human #1 to top off their urea tanks It only contains about 2.5% urea anyway.....Good thing this is a G rated thread.
Fuel cost (89-91 octane) of my V6 gasoline engine (2001-2006) per year was $861.23
Indeed there are a fair number of folks that get as low as 24/25 mpg. So there is a wide range.
The other is on a longer trip, (San Jose CA to Portland Oregon r/t) we got between 36-38 mpg cruising at 80--90. Bursts were to 85-95 respectively.
So my take: why does one need a V-6 with all that much more power, especially if one will only go 70 mph to save fuel!!??? Just go 70 mph in a Civic and one will be able to save MORE fuel with much less effort and cost!!?? Cost of acquisition is FAR less also! The difference in cost of acquistion between a like for like Civic and Accord alone will buy a LOT of fuel!
So because this is a DIESEL thread. The TDI in the same commute gets 48-52 mpg. On a recent short trip of 250 miles R/T, I got 52 mpg because I kept it SLOW. (under 85 mph)
Closer to the issue, VW (TDI line) for example does NOT recommend additives. Indeed Honda (Civic) does NOT recommend additives. Some folks do feel the need to do an additive regime in both diesel and gasser. So what!? However winter diesel is indeed blended for WINTER. Of course so is unleaded regular.
The 2003 TDI was designed to run on ULSD. So I am glad it is finally commonly available! So how well do you think your Honda Accord would run when they just changed from LEADED regular to unleaded regular in the 1970's!!??
The time to cool off is a gross misunderstanding of WHO WHAT and WHY. The real reason is the turbocharger. The truth is there are more passenger vehicle gasser turbos on the road than diesels. Again turbos are neither gasser nor diesel as tubos run off the exhaust gasses either produces. So if one has a gasser turbo the advice is the same. (Actually gasser/turbo run hotter and as a result have less durability than diesel/turbos, but that is splitting technical hairs)
When I bought my 2003 TDI, the premium over the gasser turbo was essentially, as I remember: 246 dollars more.
In the UK I have read the price difference between gasser/ diesel is $600. US.
FUEL CONSUMPTION: (urban) 44.8 mpg / (extra urban) 64.2mpg / 56.5mpg (combined)
So in case the conversion was not done:
37.3 mpg (extra urban)53.45 mpg 47.04 mpg (combined)
My GASSER) 2004 Civic EPA is 29 (city)/38 (highway).
http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/honda-civic-ctd-i-diesel-ra- - - - - - - - nge-1003265.html
So with a 600 difference, 2.60 diesel/2.45 ULR, 12,000 to 15,000 miles per year avg US driver, with 37.3/53.45 diesel vs 29/38 gasser, I am sure you can swag the B/E point.
So since I figured 20k miles per year is really when diesel begins to make sense, 26,000 miles per year is almost a no brainer for me.
When I compared the 1.8T at 31 mpg and the TDI at 48/49 mpg, with the above mileage, not only is it a no brainer but I am actually ahead. I B/E in the first 3 months. I save app 721 per year.
Message #55 ... carefully monitored (i.e. exact routes, 2runs) mpg checks seem to indicate 36-37 mpg in the 70 mph range. its true what they say about the i4 ...
Message #46 ... I'm about to load up my Accord EX I-4 to go to the beach, maybe this time I can crack the 40 MPG barrier? Probably not, since I'll have major A/C use, but I look for another 38 MPG trip! Woo ...
Message #20 ... I got 36 on a 5 hour trip to NC... "
Just to put some MSRP numbers:
6 cyl Accord EX 4 door sedan 27,400
4 cyl Accord EX 4 door sedan 25,050
4 cyl Civic EX 4 door sedan 19,500
27,400-19,500= 7,900 (difference in acquisition costs) buys a WHOLE LOT of fuel!!??? $7,900/2.42 per gal =3,264 gals.
At my 38-42 mpg that gives me between 124,032 miles to 137,088 miles of commuting. Since I use it for a 54 mile R/T commute, up to 9.6 years of commute miles.!!!
Mercedes will make keeping the AdBlue tank full as part of the normal maintenance routine and will probably cost next to nothing or nothing at all. Mercedes charges somewhat less than $1000 for the diesel option. Dodge charges a bit over $5000 for the diesel, plus whatever required equipment (trans, heavier front suspension, etc.) which in the long run still makes it cheaper than buying a large gasser. The other thing about that site stated something about X miles year after which point diesel starts becoming much cheaper to run. The calculator looks at first year only as I read it. You be interesting to see the return after five to eight years at 30K miles per year.
The diesels also seem to need time to cool off after running in hot weather. Ford suggests letting their diesel engines idle for 3 minutes before shutting them off. Sounds like a hassle to me.
Any turbocharged engine, gas or diesel, needs to be allowed to idle and cool after being run hard, such as towing at high speed or running at high speed in hot weather. Again, this applies to any turbocharged engine.
Cold weather starting. Your example smells like a GM product. (Does Ford use two batteries?) I had a diesel in the early eighties and I never plugged it in. It had one battery and would take 3.5 seconds to heat the glow plugs even at -20F! Always started unless the battery crumped. I have the Liberty and it lives outside without being plugged in. Glow plug preheat is two seconds or less in single digit still air cold. Starts first try and runs smoothly. The old diesel did too. I am off and moving in 15 to 20 seconds without a hiccough.
Since I am a relative newcomer to passenger vehicle fleet diesels, (actually my FIL had a 1985 MB 300 TD) folks can correct me on the history. But the real reason for the NEED/want for the cetane improver was because of the mistakes made in the 1970's by the regulators. Essentially as technology improved, vehicle cetane requirement ratings (on the diesel side a tad analogous to octane ratings) went up. So for example the 2003 TDI had a cetane requirement for a min of 49 cetane. USA law allowed (relative to Europe) much lower quality #2 diesel, with 49 state cetane of 40. CA had of late before the ULSD, had 45 cetane. ULSD I read in passing is now 50 cetane min. So not only does it have WAY less sulfur 15 ppm vs up to 500 ppm, but the cetane rating is UP.
I have also been in 20 degree weather and once in 20 degree weather with a wind chill of essentially ZERO (at altitude in the CO Rocky Mtns) and once the glow plug dash indicator light went out the car starts IMMEDIATELY.
I always use a anti-gel, lubricity, cetane additve year round. #1 reason I use the additive is for the lubricity additive for the injection system.
The old adage an ounce of additive is worth 10 hours labor @ $80/hr.
Yes, I also use the additive( Cetane booster Primrose 405C 1-3000 dilution,
http://www.primrose.com/Premium Select/405C Power- Master Plus.pdf).
I keep it in a 12 oz? bottle in the trunk and give it a quick shot just before filling (when I remember), little to no hassle.
I decided to use it in 2003 due to the VERY poor grade USA #2 diesel fuel. In theory, its use with the new ULSD is a complete redundancy. However, I still use it for the supposed extra lubricity to the fuel pump, as my longer term goals for this vehicle are a min of 500,000 miles and hopefully to 1,250,000 miles.
So if I were to keep the TDI like most people keep their gassers (to 250,000 miles), I couldn't be bothered. So in truth, I would have a hard time telling folks it does/does not work. Ask me at 500,000 miles or I will mention it if and when the fuel pump goes DOA.
Hopefully this will work. One will have to scroll down to the specific product (405C)
To the non diesel community:
Perhaps it also needs to be mentioned that those folks sell directly to retail and wholesale jobbers as well as distributors of #2 and #1 diesel.
When was the last time one heard of that happening on the unleaded regular premium side!!?? There is literally no way one could have access to the the same similar additive packages on the gasser side.
The upshot is this stuff can be SAFETLY shipped by UPS, Fed Ex, USPO. etc.
Some signals in the USA that the majority of segments are really serious about dropping consumption is when: diesel (alternative fuels) are tax less and cost less per gal RETAIL than unleaded regular. Curiously enough diesel is on par with premium, or in some places even less!
A target is 23.4 % of the passenger vehicle fleet being diesel (alternative) for discussion purposes. (235.4 M x 23.4% would be 55.08 M diesel (alternative) vehicles
The answer is really in the RATIO's of "What Does One Barrel Of Crude Oil Make?"
www.eia.gov
http://www.sanjosegasprices.com/crude_products.aspx
1 barrel of crude (42 gals) yields grossly
gasoline 19.3 gals 46%
diesel 9.83 23.4%
A grade school understanding of math is all that is needed. But if there are any questions.... Fire away.
Not commonly known, but refiners to get unleaded regular and premium start with the much less available and much more expensive "light sweet crude", "Texas Tea" call it what one will.
The upshot: to make diesel, the more common OTHER THAN "light sweet crude" is both more available and 30-40% CHEAPER.
This is for starters there is also an ancillary internal rate of return.
http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/whats_in_barrel_oil.html
Process GAIN is the last line item on the EIA figures. It is 2.47 gals/42 app a 6 % gain. Or the new figure is 44.47 gals. It is still 30-40% CHEAPER to buy "OTHER THAN" light sweet crude, which is more plentiful and available to process both unleaded regular and diesel. Indeed diesel's yield is still more both vol and %.
Seems like your post is making even a stronger case for HIGHER diesel use, i.e. greater percentage diesel passenger vehicle fleet. If we were processing ONLY (for CA) the new % of diesel passenger vehicle fleet would be 15.3%.
Again if you are not in favor of diesel (alternative fuel) you still haven't explained how using unleaded regular/ premium (97%) is going to make a dent in the LOWER % of unleaded regular/premium % use.
http://www.grinningplanet.com/2005/04-12/diesel-vs-gasoline-article.htm
Fully one half of ALL fuel burned in this country IS diesel/Jet fuel/ home heating oil.
A short list would include emergency generators, house furnances, air planes, industrial processes, farm equipment, construction equippment, shipping, military vehicles, mass transportation. Essentially diesel is the back bone of the energy equation.
Beatcha to it
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2945
What caught my eye was the following:
"These days, it’s common to hear of documented engine life of 500k miles and more. A fleet of Chevy gasoline V8 pickups pulling trailers delivering car parts overnight all over the Midwest has run a number of bow tie bombers to over 600K without failure. A 1987 Saab 900 just hit the million mile mark without an engine rebuild."
In the past super high mileage was the exclusive domain of diesels, or at least that was the conventional wisdom. It now appears that gasoline engines are starting to crash the 500K party.
I did double check to see what type of engine the Saab had in 87. It was either:
# 1986–1989 — 2.0 L (1985 cc) B201 Intercooled turbo, 138-155 hp/103-114 kW at 5000 rpm and 235 N·m (173 ft·lbf)
# 1984–1993 — 2.0 L (1985 cc) B202 16-valve turbo, 160-175 hp/118-129 kW at 5500 rpm and 255-273 N·m (188-201 ft·lbf)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_900
I would be interested to hear the actual cost. Do you really think it will cost next to nothing or nothing at all at a MB dealer? The luxury car dealers are pros at separating you from your money and making you feel great about it
Indeed it was like searching for a needle in a haystack to find out the VW (Jetta) TDI engine has a design parameter of 25,000 hours. So if my average mph is 50, then that would mic out to 1,250,000 miles.
Luxury car dealers are not the only ones happy to separate you from your money and make you feel good about it. Plenty of non-luxury dealers are very adept at the same thing.
I think they prefer to use the word exhale They also inhale oxygen at night.
I agree that biodiesel from algae has tremendous potential. The wastewater lagoons at Melbourne, Australia (largest in world?) are over 26,000 acres. If they could squeeze 5,000 gallons per acre -- well that's a lot of juice. And, the resulting discharges would have a lot less BOD and TSS (pollution). We have hundred of wastewater lagoons all across the US the could potentially supply algae for biodiesel too. Kind of like killing two stones with one bird!!
http://www.melbournewater.com.au/content/sewerage/western_treatment_plant/wester- n_treatment_plant.asp
With LOW SULFUR DIESEL (LSD up to 500 ppm, with a more regular less than 140 ppm CA diesel) I routinely ran 20,000 to 25,000 mile OCI's. With the advent of ULSD, 30,000 mile OCI's could be routine. (with oil analysis if one is particular) I have read in the literature that the TBN number, important with LSD is almost superfulous with ULSD!! REASON the ULSD runs WAY CLEANER!!! This in turn lets lessens the inevitable degradation of additives. ie stays cleaner longer. This is not to advertise but ELF puts out a 0w30 that meets VW 507.00 or good to go to 30,000 miles OCI.
Just for fun I calculated out how many years it would take a Jetta TDI to reach 1,250,000 miles going 9,000 miles per year (my current rate). I came up with 139 years. I am somewhat of an optimist, but living past 139, I don't know. I think the odds are against me. :surprise:
So to me the SOME of the practical issues are:
1 keep a larger % of (older) cars longer
2 drive same miles but use less fuel: better mpg vehicles
3 drive less and use less fuel
4 increase % and vol of alternative fuel vehicles
(like alternative diesel etc)
5. cure the revenue addiction at all levels to which governments are hopelessly addicted
6. etc etc
Given the salvage rate, the mileage mics out to 84,000 miles to 125,500. Given your (longevity 600,000 miles) gasser post!!? Given a TDI or diesel of 1,250,000!!??
Making new cars are RESOURCEs intense or intensely consumptive VS doing the repairs needed to keep an older car on the road
It is almost idiotically more resources intense VS building a car than is designed to LAST say 14-16 years/210,000 to 240,000 miles instead of 1 miles INXS of the normal warranty period, i.e., my 2004 Honda Civic of 3 years and 36,000 miles?
If one does not know or see that the energy issue is absolutely central, I could go on for pages just in numbered examples. Trust me you won't want me to do that!!?
But the messianic tearing of garments, the gnashing of teeth, the threats of ??, the ranting, the hyperbole, the "how many angels can dance on the head of a diesel" the flat out fairy tales, the back tracking, contradictions, inanities, non sequiters, the eight decimal point pointless posts, interspersed by the occasionally informative would be hard to replace; and the entertainment value is priceless!
I wouldn't miss it. Keep on drilling!!
Indeed the real news is that the "work horse line/s" which some are literally double length busses are in fact (unmitigated) DIESEL busses!!!
what in tarnation is mass transit?? Is that when cars travel in packs down the highway? Or is it just when I carpool?
Oh, I just googled it .... yeah, ain't got none of that where I live.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
by Gary Richards
"If you just bought a hybrid car but don't yet have your carpool lane sticker, two words: Forget it."...
SJMN Feb 3, 2007 A section
www.mercurynew.com/news
No more,... no go solo.
How does this relate to "is this the day of the diesel?" exactly, again?
:confuse: :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:
Doesn't this go in the "Hybrids in the HOV lane" forum?
If this is "the day of the diesel" which we are debating here, then people are going to have to decide if they want to use diesel OR gasoline in their cars and trucks, are they not?
If you want to talk Hybrids in the HOV lane, let's go there.
PS. The high mileage diesels are in that legislation for the HOV lane also. They just did not have any clean enough to be awarded stickers.