My girlfriend's sister and brother-in-law live in an upscale area of Connecticut and send their kids to private schools. They are, at best, ordinary middle class people, but feel they are entitled to live among the wealthy. They have a beautiful house they cannot afford. I got a Xmas letter from her sister and it says they have actually taken out a home equity loan to pay their mortgage. Huh? If I understand the letter properly, they are "robbing Peter to pay Paul." They came over to my place this past summer. My girlfriend's sister's husband pulls up in front of my modest place and parks his shiny new Bimmer behind my old Park Avenue. He looks like Mr. GQ as I greet him looking like I've been hit by a garbage truck. Somebody who didn't know any better would think it was I who had the messed-up finances and he had it all together. BZZZZT!!! WRONG!
The answer is NO. GM can't do it. Mercedes, BMW, Lexus and even Infiniti (in the G35/M35/45 segments) have too much of a lead. Doesn't Cadillac outsell everbody but Lexus?
Cadillac already has the trophy making them "standard of the world", so yes, been there, done that.... :P
The point is, just what is the meaning of "Standard of the World"? And who is the current "Standard of the World", and why?
I contend that no car company is the "Standard of the World", and probably no car will ever be "The Standard of the World" again. There is presently too much competition. Perhaps, if Toyota becomes the #1 car maker, with only Honda left in 2nd place with all other manufacturer bankrupt, perhaps Lexus would be the standard.
Exactly, selling more is not equivalant to being best. I think that this is where both Cadillac and GM have made a mistake. By trying to remain as the top selling company, they have become second rate in quality.
I'll match Cadillacs quality to any of the Germans any day. In the quality department Cadillac is light years ahead of Mercedes and BMW. The lansing plant that builds the cts, sts, and srx is the second best plant in the world for quality. Lexus of Japan is the only plant ahead of Lansing.
pch101: Absolutely right. I read these "Hyundais are just as good as Porsche" type comments and just have to shake my head.There is a substantive difference in these types of cars, as you've noted.
Cadillac lost its way when it failed to back up the image with substance...by 1973, a Caprice or Ninety-Eight offered everything a DeVille did, at a lower price.
Saying that the appeal of luxury cars is based solely on image is mistaken. It may take a few years, but buyers will ultimately discover which marques really do offer something "special," and which ones are gussied-up versions of something else, or are no better than lower-priced vehicles.
Where the sigma platform cars fall short is the interior material quality: the leather is not quite as good as what the Germans use, the plastics are not quite as good. I base my comments on what I have read in the magazine comparison test. I assume that the editors of the magazines can see differences.
I actually like Cadillac, and I am plotting to get a program SRX. However, they seem in very short supply as my dealer has not been able to find what I would like. There are a few available at distant dealerships though...
Vehicles do not give anyone class...behavior does that.
The choice of vehicle can show likes, preferences, approaches to driving (pure transportation or driving for fun) and knowledge about cars. It can also reflect financial success - or at least, aspiration to a certain level of financial success. Whether that level has actually been achieved is another question entirely.
The discussion about the Escalade is interesting, because around here luxury SUVs - particularly the Escalade - tend to popular in neighborhoods that could not be described as well-to-do, or even prosperous.
I will say, however, that those who "don't care about what others think" tend to be interesting for about three minutes, and then quickly reveal themselves to be either rude or boorish, whether they are driving a Yugo or not.
Cadillac first offered the "Automatic Climate Control" system. However, this was available on Chevrolets in the mid-sixties. I would say by 1963, nearly everything that you could get on a Cadillac was available on the Chevrolet. I do think that Cadillac's did offer a somewhat nicer interior in terms of material quality. The Impala was basically a nicer interior compared to the Biscayne...
But through the 1960s, Cadillacs were still better built than comparable Chevrolets.
There have been original condition full-size Chevrolets and Cadillacs from the 1960s at both the Hershey and Carlisle shows, and the difference in workmanship is readily apparent.
I have not looked at one as yet, although my dealer does have one in stock now. What I like about the program 2006 SRX's at some dealerships is the price tag, about $20,000 below list price, or more than $15,000 below.
It might make more sense to wait for the 2007 program SRX's to become available. The basic issue is do I want the six speed automatic more than the CD changer. The 2007's dropped the CD changer.
And I guess you are saying by the 70's this is no longer the case. Certainly the Cimarron was not better than the Cavaliers that were built on the same assembly line. When GM's divisions (Chevy, ..., Cadillac) were no longer in control of their assembly plants, quality control probably became generic.
Quality between Cadillac & Germans. Build quality: advantage Cadillac material quality: advantage Germans Engineering quality: slight edge Germans
Toyota & Gm set up a joint venture at NUMMI assembly plant in California back in the early 80's. Gm spent the next ten years just watching and learning how Toyota does it. The two new GM assembly plants in Lansing our identical to Toyotas system both in quality and productivity.
I'd give Caddy an edge in electonic engineering, because the Germans are needlessly complex and have historically beta tested their stuff on consumers. An early 2000s S-class is an automotive version of Russian roulette, for example.
My brother-in-law should know. He has a 2000 S430 that has more bugs than a beta version of a Microsoft product. In his case, it's Russian roulette with five bullets in the revolver.
That's the worst year of a bad series of cars. I wouldn't touch one without a very good warranty. If the comand and airmatic hasn't failed yet, it's likely going to soon. And of course, the countless little other electronic glitches. But when the car is 100%, it's excellent.
Where the sigma platform cars fall short is the interior material quality: the leather is not quite as good as what the Germans use, the plastics are not quite as good. I base my comments on what I have read in the magazine comparison test. I assume that the editors of the magazines can see differences.
I think you're exactly righ, sls - it's the interiors that turn me off from the Sigma cars. However, the DTS still offers the luxury I like in a car, soft leather, cushy seats and plush ride, (or is it plush seats and cushy ride) and room. They feel comfy to drive. However, I hate FWD and torque steer - still, the DTS is just a nice driving car. The Sigma cars 'perform' better, but I don't do the slolum all that much anymore.
The Germans need to put every bit of electronics they can in their auto's to justify the luxury price. You can get a Camry with Navigation, and Blue tooth for $30k. Most people don't need a car with adaptive cruise or the ability to park itself. Sad thing is I think Lexus is doing the same thing to be different from Toyota. I've meet a couple people with adaptive cruise and have never heard a good word about it. Yet the car companies keep putting useless technology that is eventually going to break. If it's not on the car it can't break.
I suspect Joe and Joanne Sixpack have no clue Lexus is Toyota, or that Acura is Honda or Infiniti is Nissan for that matter. The distanced marketing approaches of those brands have been pretty fantastic, and the average consumer seems to know nothing above what is shouted at them.
I suspect Joe and Joanne Sixpack have no clue Lexus is Toyota, or that Acura is Honda or Infiniti is Nissan for that matter.
It's not so much the marketing that have distanced them, it's the mentality of the public - most of whom, don't even know that Lincoln is a Ford, or Cadillac is a GM either - they don't care, they don't catalogue the differences. Also, Joe Lunchbucket drives a Dodge Truck, you know, with a 5 speed and a six cylinder motor, but all raised up and the smaller he is, the taller the truck..... He has no interest, or money for, a Cadillac.
Fintails right about the Japanese distancing themselves from their luxury brands. I just had a someone ask me who makes Acura when a commercial for one during a football game came on. I think more people know who makes Lexus then the other Japanese luxury cars. Cadillac is doing fine. They still hold the same market share as in 2001, and thats all you can ask for out of a brand. That means the Germans & Japanese have not took one sale from Cadillac. Someone bought 54,000 Escalades so far this year.
I have to agree with your point too. Many people don't pay attention; cars are appliances (or trucks).
And did the Scion get connected to Toyota in people's minds for the halo effect of most people's perception of the brand by advertising or is it considered a separate company that just came out of nowhere?
Scion was a intentionally linked to Toyota. Toyota was a huge player with a good rep when Scion was introduced. Back when Lexus came out Toyota had a lot to prove in the Luxury market.
I'll go with that. There probably isn't one standard of the world in everything, but Mercedes, BMW and Lexus are a lot closer to being such than Cadillac is. Cadillac isn't even close. They have no segment leaders, they don't lead in quality, performance, safety, reliability, build quality, sales, or anything.
Yeah, that's true. Wasn't GM going to start putting "GM" badges on their cars so people would know their origins? I don't know if that's such a bright idea.
Most Scion dealers are connected to Toyota dealers, right? The ones I have seen have been on the same premisis. So I am sure Toyota wants that halo effect.
Wasn't GM going to start putting "GM" badges on their cars so people would know their origins? I don't know if that's such a bright idea.
Matter of fact, they now do exacxtly that. I thought it was stupid when they announced it, and don't think it has bought them any positive recognition at all. But I understand Waggoner's idea - he's assigning value to the GM brand in an effort to get people to buy a GM, not a Pontiac or a Buick - which means he's thinking of consolidating brands. Hell of an idea in my opinion - I think he should consolidate all of them into 5 max. Three would be better.
Cadillac, including Corvette. Chevrolet, including trucks. Saturn Hummer SAAB
NOTHING just rebadged anymore.....unique sheet metal and interiors for all.
Delete the dumb "[professional grade]" GMC line. Nobody likes the looks of them anyway.
Consolidate Pontiac and Buick into Saturn.
On the topic of "standard of the world", I think Mercedes wrested that from Cadillac somewhere in the 80's, with the W-140. While Cadillac was rebadging Oldsmobuicks, Mercedes made an awesome luxury car, not just a well functioning but noisy and spartan car any longer. But with performance beyond anything Cadillac had. I think they still have the trophy, and the contenders are now BMW and Lexus. Cadillac has sure improved, and kudos to them for that but I doubt they'll ever catch up now. It's not just their fault either, while Cadillac was going to hell, Mercedes was working feverishly to improve, as they continue to do now. They're not standing still, so Cadillac has to keep running - can't catch up now unless Mercedes quits.
It'll be tough assigning GM its own identity with a little badge on the flank of a car. Those who care already know, and those who don't care will never bother. A TV and print campaign would be more effective. People need to care about the brands before they will care about relating them to one another.
MB has had some serious issues, but I get a more legitimate sense of wanting to right the ship than I did from Caddy until the past couple years. A 5-7 year bad spell won't kill them.
I'd have to give Mercedes a definite edge in build quality, although Cadillac has made huge strides in this area over the past 15 years.
I don't know if I'd give Mercedes an edge in build quality as much as I would in engineering. The S-Class is the best performing car I've driven. I think design is superior, and engineering is superior. But Build quality, that goes to Lexus. And Cadillac may even be a little better. They're all good, but MB still has their glitches....
There probably isn't one standard of the world in everything, but Mercedes, BMW and Lexus are a lot closer to being such than Cadillac is. As far as build quality, Mercedes & BMW both suck!!! Look at initial quality rankings for 2006. They finished 26 & 28 in the JD Power rankings. Lexus & Cadillac were 2 & 7. A Saturn or Kia has less problems per car. Lexus: .93 problems per vehicle Cadillac: 1.17 problems per vehicle Average: 1.24 problems per vehicle Mercedes: 1.39 problems per vehicle BMW: 1.42 problems per vehicle They start to add up when you multiply by 200,000. For every 200k BMW & Cadillac's sold, the BMW's got 50,000 more service repairs.
Just remember that JD powers doesn't quantify those problems. Suppose off those problems BMW's have are very minor and the problems Lexus (Lexi?) have are all major?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I know those numbers aren't a perfect measure of vehicle Quality, but if you multiply by per 200,000 cars you get a general idea about a cars quality. These numbers aren't new. The Germans have lagged for years in overall quality.
Apparently you don't know the difference between build quality and reliability. This is what happens when one depends on surveys to convey to them what a simple hands on examination of a car could tell them. That survey has squat to do with build quality.
Again, Cadillac doesn't lead or standout in anything, your post only shows that they have better reliability per the surveys than the German brands. Lexus beats them all, making them a leader in at least one aspect, Cadillac doesn't lead in anything.
Thats a heavy anti Cadillac slant. Would you rather be ranked 7th, 26th, or 28th? Build quality + Engineering quality = Reliability Build quality is how often a nut or bolt isn't tightened down.
But Build quality, that goes to Lexus. And Cadillac may even be a little better.
Please explain? Sure in the past years Lexus yes, but a CLS, SL, CL or S are built as good as any Lexus or better. Cadillac doesn't even compare to MB or Lexus in build quality.
Audi is usually seen as the industry standard though, not Lexus.
Audis have for years been considered the best built cars in the industry, physical build quality, but their reliability has been horrible for an equal amount of years.
If you can't see that then you simply don't know the difference between physical build quality and reliability, they aren't the same thing and one doesn't always indicate how the other will be.
I'm still waiting on someone here to tell me what Cadillac leads in or what they do better than anyone else. They need something in order to start even thinking about trying to be the "standard of the world" again.
Comments
My girlfriend's sister and brother-in-law live in an upscale area of Connecticut and send their kids to private schools. They are, at best, ordinary middle class people, but feel they are entitled to live among the wealthy. They have a beautiful house they cannot afford. I got a Xmas letter from her sister and it says they have actually taken out a home equity loan to pay their mortgage. Huh? If I understand the letter properly, they are "robbing Peter to pay Paul." They came over to my place this past summer. My girlfriend's sister's husband pulls up in front of my modest place and parks his shiny new Bimmer behind my old Park Avenue. He looks like Mr. GQ as I greet him looking like I've been hit by a garbage truck. Somebody who didn't know any better would think it was I who had the messed-up finances and he had it all together. BZZZZT!!! WRONG!
Doesn't Cadillac outsell everbody but Lexus?
The point is, just what is the meaning of "Standard of the World"? And who is the current "Standard of the World", and why?
I contend that no car company is the "Standard of the World", and probably no car will ever be "The Standard of the World" again. There is presently too much competition. Perhaps, if Toyota becomes the #1 car maker, with only Honda left in 2nd place with all other manufacturer bankrupt, perhaps Lexus would be the standard.
None of the competition have a rental fleet darling, either...
Cadillac lost its way when it failed to back up the image with substance...by 1973, a Caprice or Ninety-Eight offered everything a DeVille did, at a lower price.
Saying that the appeal of luxury cars is based solely on image is mistaken. It may take a few years, but buyers will ultimately discover which marques really do offer something "special," and which ones are gussied-up versions of something else, or are no better than lower-priced vehicles.
I actually like Cadillac, and I am plotting to get a program SRX. However, they seem in very short supply as my dealer has not been able to find what I would like. There are a few available at distant dealerships though...
The choice of vehicle can show likes, preferences, approaches to driving (pure transportation or driving for fun) and knowledge about cars. It can also reflect financial success - or at least, aspiration to a certain level of financial success. Whether that level has actually been achieved is another question entirely.
The discussion about the Escalade is interesting, because around here luxury SUVs - particularly the Escalade - tend to popular in neighborhoods that could not be described as well-to-do, or even prosperous.
I will say, however, that those who "don't care about what others think" tend to be interesting for about three minutes, and then quickly reveal themselves to be either rude or boorish, whether they are driving a Yugo or not.
The interiors of the 2007 models at the local dealer look MUCH better than the interiors of the 2006 models still on the lot.
There have been original condition full-size Chevrolets and Cadillacs from the 1960s at both the Hershey and Carlisle shows, and the difference in workmanship is readily apparent.
It might make more sense to wait for the 2007 program SRX's to become available. The basic issue is do I want the six speed automatic more than the CD changer. The 2007's dropped the CD changer.
That's another issue where confusion reigns supreme.
Build quality: advantage Cadillac
material quality: advantage Germans
Engineering quality: slight edge Germans
Toyota & Gm set up a joint venture at NUMMI assembly plant in California back in the early 80's. Gm spent the next ten years just watching and learning how Toyota does it. The two new GM assembly plants in Lansing our identical to Toyotas system both in quality and productivity.
Build quality?
That's the worst year of a bad series of cars. I wouldn't touch one without a very good warranty. If the comand and airmatic hasn't failed yet, it's likely going to soon. And of course, the countless little other electronic glitches. But when the car is 100%, it's excellent.
I think you're exactly righ, sls - it's the interiors that turn me off from the Sigma cars. However, the DTS still offers the luxury I like in a car, soft leather, cushy seats and plush ride, (or is it plush seats and cushy ride) and room. They feel comfy to drive. However, I hate FWD and torque steer - still, the DTS is just a nice driving car. The Sigma cars 'perform' better, but I don't do the slolum all that much anymore.
I've meet a couple people with adaptive cruise and have never heard a good word about it. Yet the car companies keep putting useless technology that is eventually going to break. If it's not on the car it can't break.
But a Lexus is a Toyota. They can try to change the image as something special but most people know... it is a Toyota.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It's not so much the marketing that have distanced them, it's the mentality of the public - most of whom, don't even know that Lincoln is a Ford, or Cadillac is a GM either - they don't care, they don't catalogue the differences. Also, Joe Lunchbucket drives a Dodge Truck, you know, with a 5 speed and a six cylinder motor, but all raised up and the smaller he is, the taller the truck..... He has no interest, or money for, a Cadillac.
Cadillac is doing fine. They still hold the same market share as in 2001, and thats all you can ask for out of a brand. That means the Germans & Japanese have not took one sale from Cadillac. Someone bought 54,000 Escalades so far this year.
And did the Scion get connected to Toyota in people's minds for the halo effect of most people's perception of the brand by advertising or is it considered a separate company that just came out of nowhere?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Heck no. The top luxury car sellers are Lexus, BMW, Mercedes and then Cadillac.
Being standard of the world has nothing to do sales either. Sales don't = best.
M
M
Matter of fact, they now do exacxtly that. I thought it was stupid when they announced it, and don't think it has bought them any positive recognition at all. But I understand Waggoner's idea - he's assigning value to the GM brand in an effort to get people to buy a GM, not a Pontiac or a Buick - which means he's thinking of consolidating brands. Hell of an idea in my opinion - I think he should consolidate all of them into 5 max. Three would be better.
Cadillac, including Corvette.
Chevrolet, including trucks.
Saturn
Hummer
SAAB
NOTHING just rebadged anymore.....unique sheet metal and interiors for all.
Delete the dumb "[professional grade]" GMC line. Nobody likes the looks of them anyway.
Consolidate Pontiac and Buick into Saturn.
On the topic of "standard of the world", I think Mercedes wrested that from Cadillac somewhere in the 80's, with the W-140. While Cadillac was rebadging Oldsmobuicks, Mercedes made an awesome luxury car, not just a well functioning but noisy and spartan car any longer. But with performance beyond anything Cadillac had. I think they still have the trophy, and the contenders are now BMW and Lexus. Cadillac has sure improved, and kudos to them for that but I doubt they'll ever catch up now. It's not just their fault either, while Cadillac was going to hell, Mercedes was working feverishly to improve, as they continue to do now. They're not standing still, so Cadillac has to keep running - can't catch up now unless Mercedes quits.
It'll be tough assigning GM its own identity with a little badge on the flank of a car. Those who care already know, and those who don't care will never bother. A TV and print campaign would be more effective. People need to care about the brands before they will care about relating them to one another.
MB has had some serious issues, but I get a more legitimate sense of wanting to right the ship than I did from Caddy until the past couple years. A 5-7 year bad spell won't kill them.
I don't know if I'd give Mercedes an edge in build quality as much as I would in engineering. The S-Class is the best performing car I've driven. I think design is superior, and engineering is superior. But Build quality, that goes to Lexus. And Cadillac may even be a little better. They're all good, but MB still has their glitches....
Rocky
P.S. I also think the GM emblem idea is a good one.
to not know a Cadillac is a GM product IMHO, right ?
Yes, I agree - but believe it or not, I know some girls who don't know.... They're fairly young, of course...
Rocky
P.S.
NV, I grabbed this pic from the 08' CTS forum.....
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/gallery/data/530/2008CadillacCTS.jpg
I'm very interested to see this new car, both inside and out.
As far as build quality, Mercedes & BMW both suck!!! Look at initial quality rankings for 2006.
They finished 26 & 28 in the JD Power rankings. Lexus & Cadillac were 2 & 7. A Saturn or Kia has less problems per car.
Lexus: .93 problems per vehicle
Cadillac: 1.17 problems per vehicle
Average: 1.24 problems per vehicle
Mercedes: 1.39 problems per vehicle
BMW: 1.42 problems per vehicle
They start to add up when you multiply by 200,000. For every 200k BMW & Cadillac's sold, the BMW's got 50,000 more service repairs.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"As far as build quality, Mercedes & BMW both suck!!!"
You can't be serious.
"Problems per vehicle" has no definite relation to "build quality".
I think he is, their quality has suffered in recent years. One of the reasons we passed on a reasonably good deal om a MB a while back.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
These numbers aren't new.
The Germans have lagged for years in overall quality.
Again, Cadillac doesn't lead or standout in anything, your post only shows that they have better reliability per the surveys than the German brands. Lexus beats them all, making them a leader in at least one aspect, Cadillac doesn't lead in anything.
M
Would you rather be ranked 7th, 26th, or 28th?
Build quality + Engineering quality = Reliability
Build quality is how often a nut or bolt isn't tightened down.
Please explain? Sure in the past years Lexus yes, but a CLS, SL, CL or S are built as good as any Lexus or better. Cadillac doesn't even compare to MB or Lexus in build quality.
Audi is usually seen as the industry standard though, not Lexus.
M
= misinformed at best.
Audis have for years been considered the best built cars in the industry, physical build quality, but their reliability has been horrible for an equal amount of years.
If you can't see that then you simply don't know the difference between physical build quality and reliability, they aren't the same thing and one doesn't always indicate how the other will be.
I'm still waiting on someone here to tell me what Cadillac leads in or what they do better than anyone else. They need something in order to start even thinking about trying to be the "standard of the world" again.
M