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The Sonata starts at $20k, 3200 lbs, and 198 hp, rather than $27k, 3600 lbs, and 182 hp (at 6700 rpm). I think this strategy will work great for Hyundai, since that company is the very definition of "mass market," but Buick's efforts at premium positioning make this a risky move for the brand.
Let me add that I'd take the Regal turbo very seriously at $27k, and would consider the nonturbo a great deal at $24-25k, marketing strategy notwithstanding. A GS powered by the 260hp Ecotec from the Cobalt SS would be a good range topper at $30k.
Those who "feel the need for speed" will want to wait for the Regal turbo or go with one of the V6 cars with closer to 300 hp.
I see that the late '90s GM 3.8L V6 had 205 HP, actually. That was at only 5200 rpm and peak torque was 230 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm. I believe someone indicated that the 182 HP was at 6500 rpm, that engine will surely not be offering anything like 230 ft-lbs of torque at 4000 rpm.
While cars seemingly sell based on somewhat meaningless HP numbers at very high rpm, most drivers really seem to prefer not revving engines to even 1/2 of the rpm at which those HP numbers occur. The way a lot of people seem to drive, I think they are more likely to feel an engine to be adequate if it feels adequate at about 2500 rpm.
Most of the difference between 182 HP @ 6500 rpm and the TSX's 200 HP @ 7000 rpm is simply due to the higher rpm (the difference in torque is only 3 ft-lbs, based on those numbers).
I agree with that. The power ratings, the alleged zero-sixty times, the quarter mile times, the G-ratings, the super high alleged gas mileage ratings and all mean little to me. It's what it drives like when I drive one that will sell me. Frankly, for the cars with the wunder high mileage ratings I always take that with a grain of salt. I don't pay attention to the EPA ratings expecting to get that for my typical driving.
It's the driving experience which is a result of the gearing and engine capabilities at the speeds and in the manner I drive it that makes a difference.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It would be hard to make a profit selling only to one person!
No, I agree with you as well. My 1993 LaSabre had 170hp IRRC and it was fine and got 30-31mpg on long, xpressway only trips. I think smoothness has a little bit to do with it too when it comes to cars costing close to 30k and on up. A six does run a lot smoother and usually has more grunt to get moving. And I stand by what I said earlier, the vast majority of people buying cars for 30k plus(which the turbo Regal will most probably be) want some smoothness and 200+ HP IMO.
For comparison the 1993 LeSabre, which did have a 3.8L V6 with 170 HP (but at only 4800 rpm) had peak torque of 225 ft-lbs at 3200 rpm.
Nor do I. I expect to exceed the EPA ratings. In my experience, it is very easy to exceed the EPA numbers in any car, as long as some basic fuel-saving techniques are followed (light foot on gas pedal, anticipating stops, sticking to speed limits).
Absolutely Backy. I drive an '05 TL and it has plenty of power, but is a bit of a pig in handling next to my '98 Audi A4. With over 50 fewer horses, the Audi was a lot more fun to drive. And our current Mazda 5 (micro-minivan!) has much tighter, more responsive steering than my TL. But not nearly as much power. And you know what - the Mazda is more fun to drive.
You see how the painted alloys look against the silver paint and the foglights on and such? I love that on this car! And how the headlights look with the mirrored chrome inside and such. Looks great.
The GTS model shown is only $23,244.
Here's a review I just found that is making my mind up on getting a Kizashi. Check this out. I've been wanting to get a car with a manual transmission for a while and here's my chance to do just that. Check this review out, friends.
Vehicle
2010 Suzuki Kizashi GTS 4dr Sedan (2.4L 4cyl 6M)
Review
Haven't had this much fun driving a car since 1978! Great fun with 6 spd.manual transmission, great pick-up and performance...watch out...in 6th gear you can go from 75-100 in a split second without trying to! LOVE MY KIZASHI!
Favorite Features
Interior! Fosgate sound! Smooth ride! Mileage!
Suggested Improvements
None so far
________________________________________________________________
Here's another one I like.
Vehicle
2010 Suzuki Kizashi SLS 4dr Sedan AWD (2.4L 4cyl CVT)
Review
Iwas waiting for that car for more than a month. First i want to get GTS AWD CVT but they dont make it yet so i put order for SLS AWD CVT. I took delivery on 2/18 and the car had 24 miles on it. Now i can't say to much about acceleration because i have 350miles and still i am brake in a car but driving on high way taking few seconds to get to 80mph. So far i can say car is cool and fun to drive. On snow car feel steady. Interior its nice and it has a lots of room. Car has a lot of features for that price. If you will buy different car with those futures you will pay much more.
Favorite Features
stereo system, moon roof, AWD, paddle shifters, sunroof, push to stat button, auto wipers and lights.
Suggested Improvements
Blind spot warning, 6 cd changer, buck up camera should be standard in all trims and standard navigation in SLS will be nice.
Evidently Suzuki tested this car on the Autobahn. They have done a great job. I loved my test drive and longed for the stick shift version of the car during that drive. And afterwards, too!
I am thinking of returning to the Pacific Northwest and in Pullman one does have a lot of snow to deal with. Yes, the home of Washington State University, Pullman. We'll see, I have had a phone interview that went very well. I am going to check out Suzuki dealers in the Pacific Northwest in the Pullman region. I know there's one in Spokane. I miss my homeland, which is actually the Seattle area. But this hospital I'm applying for a job at is winning patient satisfaction awards and it is winning 'Top 100 hospitals to work at in the U.S.' awards as well. I'm very interested! And it does snow a lot in Pullman.
They do plow the streets there, but my 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS, though a great car, might have trouble in the snow, due to it's high-performance, low-profile Pirelli P-Zero Nero M&S Pinna tires. Don't get me wrong, they're great tires. But I suspect the tires with the Lancer suspension and racecar type setup might cause me trouble up in Palouse country.
I'm all excited about the Kizashi and the job in Pullman. Aw, schucks. Ya know I'll be keeping you posted. The Mrs. is going to have to be...umm...nurtured along with this for a while. I may want to wear my flak jacket at the appropriate times.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Also, any guidance on pricing? I wouldn't finance, it would be a cash transaction for me.
Since the stick shift Sonatas list at right at or slightly below $20k, you should be able to get one for something in the $18k range.
Check out http://cars.overstock.com/configurator.html?makeId=2235&modelId=443&upfrontPrici- - - ng=Y for pricing, they have some really good deals listed on there. They list the base Sonata for $17,509. Make sure you add Hyundai cable if you plan to use the iPod, the system is buggy with just the regular Apple cable.
Good point, this is why I gave up a 38 MPG Camry Hybrid for the Fusion Sport. I may be getting only around 22 winter 24 summer, but it is fun to drive, comfortable, and handles so much better than a Camry could ever dream of handling. After 16 months behind the wheel of the TCH, and 34K miles, I hated the car. MPG is meaningless if you despise the ride and comfort. This is one big reason I cant drive anything smaller than a mid size car, I don't feel comfortable in them, call it a phobia if you want, but when I had the Prius I felt vulnerable. Too many years driving OTR and seeing what the compacts and sub compacts look like after getting hit by anything other than another compact is scary.
18k? With a $2500 rebate already sitting on them, I was thinking I could get out the door for $16k if I search hard; fitzmall had some great deals on them.
That's only on the remaining stock of 2010s. In my area the only offers on the 2011s are a lease special, a $500 owner loyalty offer, and/or special financing.
Either way, all responses are welcome and appreciated. I'm wondering because the pics aren't clear; do GLS models have audio controls on the wheel?
http://hyundainews.com/Media_Kits/2010_Models/Sonata/Press_Release.asp
Just found for sure, optional on the GLS, standard on other versions.
http://hyundainews.com/Media_Kits/2010_Models/Sonata/Features.asp
I'm not sure I can give up my audio controls on the steering wheel. I'm already struggling with the thought of not having a moonroof. Might have to try and find a PEP model.
CD Changer Replaced
Rear-View Mirror Replaced
Gas-Flap Broken
A rattling rear strut tower that is driving me nuts
Now, my horn is broken. I'm just not confident that this will be nearly as solid as my '96 has been, and feel like it might be a fairly prudent move to get a leftover 2010 Sonata, while they are bargain-basement.
A big part of me really craves a stick-shift.
Lots of good stuff on the Sonata though--the std ESC (which your Accord doesn't have unless it's a V6), very nice dash, more interior room, bigger trunk.
1.) No audio controls on steering wheel, maybe a deal-breaker. Part of my motivation for car shopping is to move to a stick-shift. Finding a Sonata with a stick seems impossible enough, but one with PEP and stick just isn't happening. Its sad, because if I'm shifting gears, it'd be nice to be able to have one hand on the wheel that could adjust audio functions as well.
2.) Front-seat room must be at least as good as my Accord. My girlfriend has the latest-gen Santa-Fe and I feel cramped in it from head-to-toe. My Accord is fine if not ideal. I'm 6'5".
3.) I know the Sonata rides better and handles softer, but in reality, all of these cars are within a narrow margin. I do forsee missing little details that my up-level Accord offers, and for that reason I may not even make a move. Can't hurt to look though.
Question: does anybody know what RPM the stick-shift turns on the interstate? I'm hoping nothing about 2,200 or so at 60 MPH. My 5-speed auto Accord turns 2,000 RPM at 60 MPH.
I'm willing to spend $1,500 out of pocket combined with the net from selling both Accords ('96 and '06). I don't want a car payment if I can help it. If I can't get what I want for that, I'm not buying. I think I can get $3k for my old one and I'm hoping for at least $11,000 for the new one.
I need OTD for $15,500, were this to be the case. That's going to be hard to do on a 2010, much less a 2011. I'd like to test drive a 2011 to at least see what I'm missing, and whether or not I should put $ away for that instead of buying the 2010.
I'm not so much worried about depreciation because part of the reason for buying a 2010 for cheap is because the depreciation hit has sort-of occurred already.
How about a nice Optima? Same I4 powertrain as the 2010 Sonata, firmer ride than the Sonata (more like the Accord's), audio controls on the wheel, and even lower priced than the Sonata.
Both Mitsu & Suzuki are small players nowadays, but Mitsu sells 4-5 times as many vehicles and is a more likely long-term player in the US market.
it's that I love the Lancer GTS and the Suzuki Kizashi GTS so much more. I really liked our 2001 Kia Sportage 4X4, but don't know that I loved it. It was a very competent little SUV. Saved my butt 2 or 3 times getting out of stuck ice and snow situations. Which is why I even brought that up about going to Pullman, WA. It gets a bunch of snow.
First things first. I first need to get the job over there then I'll shop more seriously for a Kizashi. And I may very well just postpone it for a while. I got all excited about the 2007 Suzuki SX-4 then bought a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS.
So I will change my mind about what I want. It's just that an SUV is probably not going to fit in to our plans for the future. I have come to like the feel of sitting down lower in the pocket and steering through all the large pick-em-up trucks and SUV's. The Kizashi seemed to prop me up a tad higher from street level than our '08 Lancer GTS does.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I'd take a 3 year old *Buick* over a brand new Yaris or Fit. It's like comparing a slightly used Seiko to a new Timex. Except cars depreciate so fast that it's often possible to find a 3 year old car for half the price it was new. Even certified with a warranty if that makes you happy.
And how is his preference of buying new over used myopic? It's not. It's a preference. Personally, I'd rather take new over used if I had the choice myself. I'd rather get the vehicle that I want, without worrying about depreciation, previous issues, etc. I don't care how much my vehicle's worth if I enjoy driving it.
Maybe Grad has looked into the option of buying new or used, and ended up with the '10 Sonata as making the most sense for his specific financial and preferential situation. Is that so hard to believe?
Even certified with a warranty if that makes you happy.
Right. the $1500 "warranty" with a 20-page Terms & Conditions booklet typed in 6-point font that ends up not being used, or not covering anything..
I'd take a 3 year old *Buick* over a brand new Yaris or Fit. It's like comparing a slightly used Seiko to a new Timex. Except cars depreciate so fast that it's often possible to find a 3 year old car for half the price it was new. Even certified with a warranty if that makes you happy.
Well, as we've been talking. If you buy an American or a Korean, you can find good deals on those. You cannot get a 2007-08 Accord LX, an Altima 2.5S, or a Camry LE w/ a reasonable mileage for 9K. If it's certified, the price will be almost the same as the new car.
Re-read my post, selling both '96 and '06.
As far as the other posts go...
Yes, my Accord is starting to have that nickel and diming feel to it with rattles, etc. I do love it though, and won't buy a car unless I find something which I love more. I went to test drive a 2010 Sonata yesterday, but all they actually had left on the lot were V6 Limited models, stickers over $28k. The dealer's sales manager acted like he'd do me a favor, telling me he could sell me one of them for $25k. I laughed.
While I was there (pardon the unrelated-ness) I did test two Elantra Touring wagons, one with a stick, the other with the 4-speed. The stick-shift was peppy, but boy was the automatic a dog. I guess asking 138 horses to move 3100 lbs is just not a nice thing to do. My '96 Accord felt zipper than that auto. I did like the size, though. The salesman, about 5'11", could sit behind me without his knees hitting the seat. It was about the size of the last Accord Wagon sold.
I still plan to drive a Sonata, but now I'm more confused than I was before. A piece of me wants to drive the Forte or Optima, but silly as it sounds, I still have a hard time believing I'd have any sort of decent resale, especially if I don't drive the wheels off of it. Couple that with our one dealer having a bad rep (you know, the cheesy sleazy) and I don't get a happy feeling about Kia. Are Optima sedans available with bluetooth? I know Fortes come with them standard.
I really appreciate all of the advice and thoughts towards my decision here on the baords. I've been a member for quite awhile, and still enjoy it! :shades:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef040b2/6775#MSG6775
What first started me shopping was that I was seeing transaction prices for brand-new 2010 Sonatas at used-car prices. Best of both worlds there, because in a way, the large part of the depreciation hit has occurred already, but I don't have to give a thought to what the previous owner did to it or why they traded it in with such low mileage. Now that I've shopped, I'm interested in seeing what I can get for my dollar. In the end, I may just keep my dollar!
I like the Elantra Touring as well. I decided against for the same reason you decided against Kia--the local dealership's reputation is sleazy. Have you looked at the Fusion yet? Its feel reminds me a lot of the mid-'90s Accords.
That is the best way to do it, when the car is one you really like. In the last 10 years there have really been only 2 models of cars that I really liked and in both cases great deals were available at the time I considered them.
Back in 2000, I discovered the Contour/Mystique, just as they were disappearing. I ended up not buying a new one. But at one point a dealer offered to sell me a new Mystique for $12,500, I did not buy because it was white. I also walked out on a deal on a black one somewhere else when they changed the price by $500 over what I thought had been agreed to, I'm not sure, but think that one was going to be about $14K. (I ended up buying a couple cheap used ones each of which I drove for a few years and then passed on to kids when they graduated HS)
In 2006, I discovered the Mazda6 and decided I might like to buy one, rather than another used Contique, if the price was right. When I did finally buy my 2007, I think it was pretty close to used car pricing at nearly 25% below MSRP.
Yep; I really like the Fusion. They're priced a little beyond my reach currently though.