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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    edited March 2010
    2011 Hyundai Sonata GLS vs. 2010 Honda Accord vs. 2010 Mazda 6i Touring

    IL has finally called the Sonata the "benchmark" in this one. Congrats to them. The Mazda is considered the drivers car (no surprise), and the Honda, well, it just was there.

    They tested cars with manuals exclusively this time, that's bound to ruffle some feathers on this board... :P
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    OK, Now that I haven't heard, of course had I heard that before I posted, I wouldn't have posted ! :D In that case, give that sumbiotch a ticket for speeding and filing a false police report.

    Oh It has been 2 years since I drove a Prius, so I got the h backwards, but you can still press the park button while driving, and it will put it into neutral until it slows to under 3MPH. In a last ditch attempt if the car is running away, which after seeing what you posted(BTW Link to story would be nice), doesn't seem possible in the Prius, pressing the Park button is an option to get it out of gear.

    How do I know this? I did it quite by mistake one day, don't know what I was doing, but I reached out to do something on the MFD and pressed Park instead. Car went into neutral, did not engage the park pawl, I put it back into D. A couple times I hit the power button instead of park, and it put it in park before shutting down.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    I can tell you that the Fusion does hold one thing above all the others. The AWD version, none of the others have one. So when it comes to all the midsized sedans in this price range, only Ford can be #1 in that respect, since it is the only 1.

    V6 Camry vs Fusion Sport, Sport wins, the Camry may be quicker, but the Fusion out handles it. Camry=BORING Fusion Sport=Exciting. I have driven both, the Ford is definitely the better of the two. The one and only thing I miss about the Camry is the Smart key system. I certainly do not miss that overly bright center console, especially in foggy weather. The Ford does need some improvement, basically in ergonomics, too many buttons in the center stack, a little clean up in that area would go a long way.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I'm also getting tired of the masses of car buyers that default to Toyota and Honda, when just about every other midsize car on the market at least matches (if not exceeds) the ability/advantages that these cars supposedly have

    Here's the deal, when you buy me my next car you can buy me what you want and I'll drive it. Until then, I am entitled to have my opinions about what I want to buy and spend my money the way I want to.

    That post wasn't directed specifically toward me, but I find it funny that a remark would be made like that, given that nobody is stepping up to the plate to give the car of their choice to another fellow.
  • andyfromvaandyfromva Member Posts: 79
    On topic:There's a local car dealer that sells Hyundai, and his latest batch of TV commercials show him comparing a white 2011 Sonata bumper-to-bumper with a white Mercedes C-class. To me, they look nothing alike, nor do I think a Sonata would be mistaken for a Mercedes C-class. I know he's out to sell cars, hence the comparison, but do they really look alike? Opinions?

    There's a resemblance, but the Sonata has a more streamlined look.

    Those who've seen my black 2011 Sonata GLS are amazed that it's a Hyundai. I don't know if they thought it was a Mercedes but they sure didn't think it was the same old conservative, boring Hyundai Sonata
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    I don't think the Sonata looks anything like a C-class. To me it's more a cross between the E-class and CLS from the outside--haven't seen the interior yet. I'm looking forward to eyeballing it in more depth.

    In past years Hyundai has maintained a large presence at the Atlanta auto show, which will open this weekend. I'll post my reactions when I get back.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    The new 2011 Ford Mustang GT with 412hp was just rated by the EPA at 18city/26hwy. The 272hp Mazda V6 comes in with 17city/25hwy. People on here have often commented that the reason the Mazda6 doesn't do so well is the gearing. I would imagine the Mustang is geared for a similar type of experience. Why can't Mazda get better results?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    And the mustang weighs 200 lbs more to boot. Same axle ratio - 3.33. For some reason Mazda has never had good fuel economy. Ford is using Variable Cam Timing on both intake and exhaust and runs a higher than normal compression ratio (11.0 vs. 10.3 for Mazda).

    Expect the Fusion 3.5L to get the new engine tech at some point which will boost it to 280 hp or so.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    edited March 2010
    Same final gearing or not, the transmissions are different. I guess the Mustang runs a few hundred revs lower @ 60 MPH compared to the 6. Mazda has always kept their gearing higher so downshifts aren't a requirement when passing. I'm also sure that the V8 has plenty of low-end torque, vastly superior to the V6, and I'll also bet that Ford took extra care to maximize the highway fuel economy in the exact conditions that the EPA tests it.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Forget the V8 in the '11 Mustang. The new 305 HP 3.7L V6 in the '11 Mustang is rated at 19/31 city/hwy (auto tranny). This is nearly the same engine that only gets 17/25 in the Mazda6 but with about 30 more horses and more torque.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    That's nuts! :)

    My 166hp Accord auto is rated 21/31 under the new standards. Gotta love technology.

    The real test will be whether or not those numbers are achievable (think 2.4L Equinox).
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    For whatever reason Mazda chooses it sure seems to be behind the times in attaining MPG. I only have about 156 horses in my Mazda6 and I can understand keeping the revs high. But 272hp should have enough grunt to hold gears and still get decent mpg. :confuse:
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    The real test will be whether or not those numbers are achievable (think 2.4L Equinox).

    Oh they'll be achievable, but not commonplace by any stretch of the imagination. My '06 Mustang GT (manual tranny) was rated at something like 17 city and 24 highway. In the 2 years I had it I was never able to match those ratings. It's just too hard to do in a sports car. Having said that, it should still do better on gas than a Mazda6 which is pretty sad IMO.

    The new 'Nox is another story. I'm always able to get the EPA rating or better in our SUV/CUVs and I would expect the same from the new 'Nox. I'm still waiting for the first review that even comes close to averaging the EPA estimates in that thing.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    A lot of these road tests/reviews involve slalom runs, several 0-60 bursts, hard driving that a normal(read EPA) driver isn't going to do routinely. I have yet to hear from anybody that can't match or beat the post-2007 EPA numbers unless they have went through 3 sets of tires within 50k miles. :D

    I can easily beat the 2007 EPA estimates for my Mazda6 and the 2008 numbers are lower with basically the same exact car.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    I can easily beat the 2007 EPA estimates for my Mazda6 and the 2008 numbers are lower with basically the same exact car.

    Same here. I've easily beaten the pre-2008 numbers with my '04 6 with the V6, even nudging 30 MPG on long stretches of highway. In summer months, I easily get 25 MPG in everyday driving, which involves about 60% highway, 40% city.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    I have easily beaten the EPA in both the Prius and the Camry Hybrids, 65 MPG in the Prius and 43 MPG in the Camry. I have beaten EPA in my Fusion Sport to, 31 MPG. I beat EPA in the Veracruz, 26 MPG, but I don't think I can do that in the Flex with the Eco Boost, right now it is around 19 MPG, but I haven't really driven in on the highway yet for any length of time.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    I have beaten EPA in my Fusion Sport to, 31 MPG.

    31 MPG on a V6? I like that... :)
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    They tested cars with manuals exclusively this time, that's bound to ruffle some feathers on this board...

    :confuse:

    Why would it? That is the norm for "enthusiast" testing. They pretty much always test manuals (if one is available).

    I like how they claimed they chose to test 4 cyl, because that is what the vast majority are buying. But of course, they are not buying 'em with manuals. I suspect the real reason they chose to do this is the 4 cyl is the only way to get a manual on at least some of these cars.

    I was actually rather stunned by the stat they gave "manual-transmission cars make up only about 2 percent of the mix of sales volume for these cars". Seems like pretty solid evidence that the manual transmission in mainstream cars in the US is in it's death throes.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I think they keep manuals only to be able to keep a low price on the very bare bones models and to satisfy the very few that want a manual. I think you included the key word....mainstream. I think sometime in the future only the real enthusiast models will offer sticks. Even BMW sells a very low percentage of manual transmissions versus autos.

    Now that it's been shown that an automatic or DSG type transmission can attain higher mpg on the EPA tests than a manual can, CAFE pressures will probably prompt automakers to offer fewer and fewer standard trannies..
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    edited March 2010
    ...and, presumably more and more DSG type transmissions, since those are more efficient than a conventional auto (as is CVT).

    It will not be a mid-size (though it may be getting close) but I think I'll take a test drive of the new Focus with Ford's "power-shift", when it comes out. I think that'll be the first car with DSG that is both big enough and "normal" enough to potentially interest me.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    edited March 2010
    I think that'll be the first car with DSG that is both big enough and "normal" enough to potentially interest me.

    The Jetta GLI and TDI don't count?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Don't you have a Jetta and don't the new ones have DSG? Or don't you want another VW?

    I saw the new, I think it's going to be a 2012 model, Focus at the Chicago Auto Show and it looked pretty nice. From what I've read it should be an interesting car with all available bells and whistles and great mpg....supposed to be close to 40 if I remember right. It's kind of funny cause it will probably be similar in size as midsize cars were 10 years ago.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Why would it? That is the norm for "enthusiast" testing. They pretty much always test manuals (if one is available)

    I actually said that in jest, since the majority of midsize buyers only get automatics, which would make this test worthless to them.

    I like how they claimed they chose to test 4 cyl, because that is what the vast majority are buying. But of course, they are not buying 'em with manuals. I suspect the real reason they chose to do this is the 4 cyl is the only way to get a manual on at least some of these cars.

    ...Which IMO is wrong. Why penalize the enthusiast driver that likes a more-powerful engine with three pedals, but HAS to drive a midsize 4-door?

    I was actually rather stunned by the stat they gave "manual-transmission cars make up only about 2 percent of the mix of sales volume for these cars". Seems like pretty solid evidence that the manual transmission in mainstream cars in the US is in it's death throes.

    Sad but true. Us three-pedalers are a dying breed... :cry:
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    A lot of these road tests/reviews involve slalom runs, several 0-60 bursts, hard driving that a normal(read EPA) driver isn't going to do routinely.

    True, but there were one or two on the 'Nox that didn't and they came the closest. I don't doubt 32 mpg is possible in a FWD 'Nox but all the complaints about having to really gas it to go anywhere would make it hard. That's why I question a lot of the too good to be true ratings we're seeing lately.

    I did very well with my '04 Mazda6 S (manual tranny) compared to the EPA numbers. It was fun but it certainly wasn't a RWD Pony Car or an overweight cute ute.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited March 2010
    Why penalize the enthusiast driver that likes a more-powerful engine with three pedals, but HAS to drive a midsize 4-door?

    I don't think the automakers make their decisions based on "who can we penalize today?". They are making bottom line decisions. If I can make more money by not even having a standard transmission offering...that's what I would do. That appears to be the case. I guess you could say the end result is a penalty. Some people like convertibles but they aren't offered in all models either.

    There are plenty of midsize 4drs with a lot of power that offer sticks. BMW, Infiniti, Lexus, Acura, Cadillac, Pontiac GTO(can still be found). They just cost more and most enthusiasts are willing to pay for their fun. The mainstream family midsizers would probably offer them if people were willing to pay more for them. That's usually the case when someone wants something that is in very low demand....they pay more to get it. But I think you would find that so very few people would want to pay more that it would just not be worth it to the automakers.

    It will be interesting to see if Hyundai will offer the new turbo in a manual in all versions of theSonata. That may be something to change the game for people that do want more power but want to row but get really good mpg as well. Could be a win, win.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,204
    although the ford and mazda have the same size engine, from what i have read, the only thing they have in common is the basic engine block.
    mazda doesn't have to worry as much as ford about CAFE, so they may not tune their engines for max EPA test mileage.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I'm not so shocked by Camry winning the MT comparo. I think the Camry is sort of like today's mid sixties Chevy (sorry Lemko!). It combines a fairly reliable ownership experience with a quiet, smooth and comfortable ride, and a competitive and attractive out the door price. It even has a rather spartan and utilitarian dash, except with a round speedo.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    edited March 2010
    I realize that it may pad the bottom line, but it doesn't mean that I have to like it, or should pay upwards of $10K MORE just to get three pedals. Just a few years ago, this market had more than a few good choices with a V6 and manual. The previous-gen Accord came with one in it's later years, the Altima 3.5SE used to be a screamer with that brilliant V6 and manual, and Mazda kept the faithful within their family with a V6 and manual. Whether it was fully-optioned or bare-bones, the 6 could be had either way.

    Now? The Accord V6 with 6-speed manual is only available in the coupe, and good luck finding one of them. The 3.5 is now called SR and is saddled with a CVT (which IMO killed the V6 attached to it in terms of both smoothness and control), and Mazda, in it's infinite wisdom to try and appeal to a broader market, dropped what could have been a unique marketing item, and simultaneously alienated their enthusiast fans (and all but eliminated the fun that "zoom-zoom" was supposed to represent).

    "Bottom Line" or not, it's not cool.

    As for Hyundai, if (and that's a big IF) they offer a manual with the upcoming turbo, get ready to see a "limited edition". I can see it now: no options, a low-end CD player, and optional AC. No moonroof, no leather, no high-end stereo, etc. I'll also bet they have to be "special ordered" with no examples found on any dealer lots for 100 miles.

    On the other hand, they could surprise all of us and win over the former 3.5SE and 6 owners, simply by offering a manual as a no-charge option, with any package, and stealing the "four-door sports car" title from Nissan (which gave up on that concept years ago)...

    Hey, it could happen! :D
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    You can get a nearly new GTO for almost half what it originally sold for, and there are still a handful of V8 G8s out there with manual. (depreciation is a huge on a very very nice car. win-win)
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    mazda doesn't have to worry as much as ford about CAFE,

    Why is that?
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    edited March 2010
    Why is that?

    Mazda doesn't have to worry about a full-size pick-up, three different large crossovers/SUVs, or a cargo/passenger van to bring down their company-wide fuel economy.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I thought about the trucks. I thought large pick-ups were looked at separately but that could be just certain ones possibly. If that's the case then I can certainly understand it. However, Hyundai not having a V6 in it's bread/butter car is CAFE driven and they have no trucks or even body-on-frame SUVs. Mazda does have the CX-9 which kind of sucks gas and the Tribute but nothing like Ford though.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    edited March 2010
    Half-ton pick-ups are counted, but IIRC, the 3/4-ton and up models are not. Since Ford sells close to a half-million F150s per year...

    Hyundai also has the Genesis (the V8 sedan and V6 coupe), plus a new S-class fighter called the Equus, which will be out in about a year.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    $10K MORE just to get three pedals

    Well, you do get a little more than just the three pedals if you go with one those brands.

    "Bottom Line" or not, it's not cool.

    If it increases their profit....it's cool to them! :)
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I read someplace where Suzuki may bring a V6 to it's Kizashi and have a stick. That would be a pretty nice driving car from what I've read about it. I wasn't that impressed sitting in it though. However, that is all predicated on the theory that Suzuki will sell some of the 4cyl Kizashi's which is yet to be seen. I reading it's not going all that great for the brand in general here in U.S.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    By "normal" I really just meant cars that meet my requirements ;)

    This generally does not include turbo or diesel, or cars that are in the price range of the GLI/GTI that is why I would not consider the Jetta or Golf with DSG. The regular 2.5 does not offer it.

    Aside from price, my reasons for not wanting diesel are I want my car to start right now no matter how cold it is and I want heat, ASAP. Turbo, again, aside from price, I just don't want the extra maintenance or repairs.

    Also, I think the TDI and GLI/GTI may only come with leather or vinyl seat material. I only like cloth.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    It's kind of funny cause it (the new focus) will probably be similar in size as midsize cars were 10 years ago.

    Yeah, I think I need to find the compact car comparison thread. The midsize cars like the new Mazda6 and Accord, just look way too big. I've not driven them, just seen them on the road, etc.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    I see you haven't been around diesels much. I have a 3 cyl Kubota diesel that sits in the barn. I never used a heater block on it, it sat for a few months not started, went out on a -5* day, held the glow plugs on for 5 seconds and she popped right off. My F350 will start right up on a -15* day after a 15 second wait for the GP's to heat up. If you cant wait 15 seconds, well, that's just a silly excuse. I also get heat faster in the diesel than I do in the gasser. I would prefer diesel over gas any day. For $250 I boosted the HP in my truck 80 HP, took me 10 minutes to swap the PCM to do it. Diesels are easy to tweak, and can produce gobs of power, and get good fuel efficiency at the same time. Any temperature above 10* I can start the truck right up and go, and have heat within a mile of leaving the house. The car doesn't warm up until I have gone a few miles, and that is with it sitting there warming up for a few minutes first. I also love the sound the turbo diesels make.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited March 2010
    I read someplace where Suzuki may bring a V6 to it's Kizashi and have a stick. That would be a pretty nice driving car from what I've read about it. I wasn't that impressed sitting in it though. However, that is all predicated on the theory that Suzuki will sell some of the 4cyl Kizashi's which is yet to be seen. I reading it's not going all that great for the brand in general here in U.S.

    Maybe my local Tucson Suzuki dealer will lower Kizashi prices in time for me to buy a 2010 Kizashi GTS in Platinum Metallic Silver then. I loved the test-drive a couple days ago in Henderson, NV. I test-drove a Pearl Black 2010 Suzuki Kizashi GTS with an automatic transmission. Great car! I absolutely loved the driving mechanics. Solid and true steering and agility. I don't see how I'm gonna stave off a Kizashi purchase. This is what happened when I fell for my 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. I made it a reality.

    But if Suzuki doesn't sell them that means prices should drop in turn. Right?

    image
    2010 Suzuki Kizashi GTS in Platinum Metallic Silver

    This is the color I want the most. I want to test-drive one in 6-speed form before I buy.

    Oh, BTW. This thing zips right along with a 4-cyl motor. The hp for the manual-trannied Kizashi is 185 vs. 180 for the automatic transmission 4-cyl.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    He's not talking truck diesels, he's talking 50 state certified 2009 passenger car diesels, which I believe are subject to a different set of regulations. All new passenger car diesels have to use the new particle filtration technology, I don't know if trucks have the same requirement.

    There aren't many 50 state passenger car diesel engines that are new models after 2009. I can't think of any manufacturer except Mercedes and BMW.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You'd better wait until the 2011 Optima comes out before you buy a Kizashi. Otherwise, you'll buy the Kizashi, and the following week you'll see the new Optima on the road, fall in love with it, and have to ditch the Kizashi (and take a bit hit in $$$$) to get the Optima.

    :)
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Yep all new trucks need to meet the same requirements, and most now have Urea systems in addition to particle filtration. VW also has 50 state diesels.

    My only point was that diesels today fire right up even in cold weather, and warm up quicker than gasoline engines, once you start driving of course. I would love to see a turbo diesel hybrid.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    You actually indicated that you did have short delays, at times, before starting. According to another diesel proponent, they do take longer to produce heat:

    http://www.tdicurious.ca/2009/02/04/myth-3-a-diesel-engine-can%E2%80%99t-heat-a-- car-in-winter-driving-in-a-2009-jetta-tdi-clean-diesel-during-a-week-of-exceptio- nally-cold-weather/

    Since the saving on fuel would be very minimal for me (~$200 per year) and it adds some minor inconveniences, I'd not be willing to pay for a diesel engine.

    Anyway, in my case, there were several other reasons for not considering the diesel Jetta, besides the engine.

    Speaking of diesels, have the manufacturer's pulled back on plans to bring diesels to the US? I seem to recall claims that a diesel Accord was coming. A google search turned up a several 2007 stories (C/D, Inside Line) saying that would be here in 2009.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Hyundai also has the Genesis (the V8 sedan and V6 coupe),

    Good luck finding a V8. From what my buddies tell me at the Hyundai store next to me is majority of the Genesis takers are buying the V6, and the over all sales of the Genesis are not great. Sales of the coupe and sedan combined were only 1,700 for February
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    you make a valid point, man. I just loved the driving dynamics and the sporty ride of the Kizashi. It was quiet inside. I didn't get a chance to pop a CD in the player. It has 425-watts vs. our Lancer's 650.

    Oh, and the Mrs. might wonder why Mr.iluv is getting a buy itch already, too. Waiting is probably a good idea at this juncture. :blush:

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Good luck finding a V8. From what my buddies tell me at the Hyundai store next to me is majority of the Genesis takers are buying the V6,

    That's exactly the reason it is fairly easy finding a V8. When I was on a couple of Hyundai dealers lots on a Sunday a few weeks ago to look at the new Sonata I couldn't believe how many V-8 Genesis were sitting around. It was hard to find a V6 one!
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    The Accord diesel was scratched due to they could only meet the EPA requirements with the manual transmission and they didn't want to spend the money to get it certifed with the auto. I read that as I have no personal knowledge. It kinda doesn't make sense to me but that seems to be the consensus for their backing out.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The Accord diesel was scratched due to they could only meet the EPA requirements with the manual transmission and they didn't want to spend the money to get it certifed with the auto. I read that as I have no personal knowledge. It kinda doesn't make sense to me but that seems to be the consensus for their backing out.

    That and I think they had planned to put it in the Crosstour, which is auto only, and terminally ugly. Maybe it was a wise decision. An obese Honda...just what we needed.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    edited March 2010
    I spent several hours yesterday perusing the offerings at the Atlanta Auto Show. While several manufacturers (most notably Nissan/Infiniti and BMW) were not represented, I got plenty of time to browse the rest. There were few surprises in the ranks of the midsize sedan--Honda, Toyota, Ford/Mercury, Kia, Mazda, Chevrolet, VW, Chrysler all fielded pretty much the same stuff as last year. While the Fusion and Malibu remain impressive cars, there were two new entries that made a very positive mark on my memory--the Sonata (which will receive its own separate post) and the Buick Regal.

    Since the Regal was not available at GM's "ride & drive" booth, my impressions are based only on a "sit & stare" method, in which I sat in, fiddled with, closely examined, etc. Also, bear in mind the small sample size--there were only two Regals present. Here are the things that stood out to me:

    1. Interior quality. I'll admit to being easily swayed by the two-tone color schemes of the Malibu and the dramatic (some would say excessive) brightwork of the LaCrosse. The Regal's interior is more restrained, less likely to look out of fashion by the time the loan is paid off. It's better finished than I'm accustomed to seeing in European, American, or Asian vehicles at this price point. This may be the car's greatest asset in the market--it's distinctive without being gimmicky, and it definitely looks and feels expensive.

    2. Interior space. The only significant dimensional difference between Regal and LaCrosse is in rear legroom--yet the Regal gives an entirely different impression, that of a close-coupled European sedan rather than a sprawling American luxury car. The range of seat adjustment is astounding--I'm of average proportion for a fortysomething American male (5'10, 200 lbs), so I can get comfortable in most cars, but I was completely blown away here. Anyone from Larry Bird to Billy Barty should be able to find a good driving position in the Regal.

    3. Seating comfort. I've been impressed by the seats in both the LaCrosse and Enclave already, and I wondered how the Regal would compare. They're slightly firmer, and a bit more "sporty feeling," but not to the point of being confining. Again, it feels expensive.

    4. Marketing and pricing. Sitting still, the Regal definitely gives the impression of being a $27k car. I don't have a problem with it being four-cylinder only. But I am concerned about the decision to launch before the 220hp turbo version is ready. Since the Regal is offered at a premium price, the premium powertrain should have been the first one offered. Sure, the 182hp Ecotec is probably sufficient in daily driving, but lots of cars that cost less have sufficient power (four-cylinder Accords, Sonatas, Malibus, etc.) As the Regal's differentiation from these cars (and the LaCrosse) depends on its sportiness, there's a problem here. To launch the car with this engine as the sole offering is to invite comparison with similarly powered, less expensive mass market cars rather than the Acura TSX and Volvo S60 that Buick claims to be targeting.

    As near as I can tell, not one review of the 182hp Regal has been published--all of the buzz generated by the press pertains to the 220hp turbo, or to the "concept" GS. Is GM so desperate to book a few sales ASAP that they're willing to risk launching yet another not-quite-finished car?

    I really want to see the Regal succeed. But to do so, it'll need to perform like a premium product. All indications are that the turbo model will do so--at $29.5k, when it's finally available sometime next summer. As for the base model--we'll see.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Good write up on the Regal and agree on the most part re the marketing. However, it kind of follows(whodda thunk) Hyundai's marketing of the Sonata. Hyundai eliminated the V6 with the promise of a turbo.....later. Few people think it is a big marketing error. I realize the Sonata is so completely different, and seemingly better, than the previous version that it will work IMO. But you're right that Buick is trying to build the perception that it should be cross shopped against Lexus and not Mercury so your comment about not being immediately competitive against TSX and VolvoS60 are right on.

    Also, Infiniti is coming out with a G37 lite called the G25(2.5L engine instead of the 3.7) that will be right in the ball park with the Regal turbo price wise so it will have another solid contender. I think most people that are spending around 30k+ on a new car prefer 200 or more HP. TSX is right on that borderline and all the others are on top of it.
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