Midsize Sedans 2.0

benjaminh · April 2012

backy: I think you're right that Altima might someday exceed the Camry in sales. I'd say that epic battle is already underway. Nissan is very ambitious and aggressive, and I think they would enjoy the shock value and headlines of toppling the car that's been number 1 for about the last dozen years.

But, living in KY, I think I read that Toyota has the capacity to build up to c. 500,000 Camrys in their huge factory here.

Does Nissan have that same capacity in TN? Maybe. I just don't know.

I do like the looks of the 2013 Altima, as well as the performance stats. 38 mpg hwy!!? For a car that big? That's truly amazing.

Honda will come back somewhat, I think, with the new Accord, but I don't see how they are ever going to get back to #2 right now. But they might make it back to #3.

But Ford will have something to say about that. The new Fusion looks great. I think Fusion and Accord will be locked in a race for 3 & 4 just like Toyota and Nissan will be battling for 1 & 2.

One certainty seems to be that the Sonata simply can't sell many more than it does now. The factory is going at full tilt already. They might get some more from Korea, but I still don't see how they can sell more than about 220,000 in calendar year 2012. Hyundai needs to build another USA factory asap...

benjaminh · April 2012

This is for the calendar year, not the model year. Here's my guess

Camry : 450,000
Altima: 440,000
Accord: 300,000
Fusion: 290,000
Sonata: 230,000 (10k higher than my guess of just ten minutes ago!)
Malibu: 190,000

These cars do offer amazing bang for the buck...

In 2013 I think VW will be joining this list with their Passat. They put an ad in my newspaper way up here in Louisville for jobs because they are hiring for a third shift. Once that VW factory is going full tilt I think VW will be able to sell maybe 200,000 Passats a year....

m6user · April 2012

Have you seen the new Accord? I saw some pics of the "very close" concept and I was not impressed and the website blogger thought the same. If they don't step up their designs they are going no place. Fusion will be huge I believe and is coming this summer, probably a few months before the new Accord which will give it a head start on the year. Add in the huge fire sale on the 2012 Fusions because of the new model and I don't thing the Accord will surpass it. But I see you have them close which it just may.

dodgeman07 · April 2012

Nissan is knocking over $3,500 off the sticker price of new 2012 Altimas in my area. That has to be bumping their 2012 sales figures way up.

Well equipped (moon-roof, dual zone climate control, alloys, fog lamps, etc) 2.5 S Altimas with the CVT sticker for over $27k and are advertised at $23,400. That's moving a lot of cars!

benjaminh · April 2012

m6user: I have not seen those pix of the Accord you mention. Bummer. I like Honda, but design after design has been a big let down for about 4 or 5 years now...

Probably should reverse that....

Fusion: 310,000
Accord: 290,000

benjaminh · April 2012

24k for a loaded Altima....that's a lotta car for the money. But I really like how the 2013s look. I'd wait...

crankeee · April 2012

dodgeman: Nissan following the old GM and now Chrysler pricing model. MSRP supersized with $5000 rebate/cashback to use the ole deal pitch.
Net transaction price ends up close to similar model with 6-10% off of MSRP. Guess the real way to buy value is net cost vs. features, quality, value and trade in prospects down the road that reflects all the other factors. We have some great car choices for relatively cheap prices. Coupled with our policy of cheap gas to maximize use and sell more cars, we really have it made - for now!

[Deleted User] · April 2012

Kirstie_H · April 2012

If you recently traded in a gas guzzler for a more fuel-efficient new vehicle, a reporter wants to talk with you. Please email PR@edmunds.com no later than Friday, April 13, 2012 with your daytime contact info and the makes and models of the vehicles.

dc_driver · April 2012

I spent numerous days driving lots of cars. Ford (Focus and Fusion), Mazda (3), Toyota (Camry V6 SE), and the Hyunda (Genesis Coupe, Sonata Turbo models).. Current car is a 2006 Mazda 3 bought new with zero issues. Had a very bad experience with a Nissan Altima SE previously (mechanical issues that Nissan would not standby), and ruled out VW to similar bad history with reliability and customer service. As a current happy Honda Odyssey owner, I was not really impressed with the Acccord at all just looking at it and did not bother test driving based on the prices I was seeing.

For me, I really liked the Hyndai Sonata. The fit and finish were excellent, and the turbo with the SE suspension and tuning is fun to drive. Lots of features for under $23k, and a great warranty. Great gas mileage. On paper the Sonata turbo has almost 130 more horsepower than my Mazda 3 and gets better gas mileage! Nothing not to not like, and the exterior styling is very masculine and attractive.

I really wanted to test drive the Kia Optima EX turbo, but there were literally none near me in stock. They are flying off the lots. My dealer had to get the SE 2.0T from another dealer because they sold them all this week. There were several Sonata Limited turbos, and I did drive one, steering was just too loose for me. The SE has much more engaging steering, but you definitely have a firmer ride and feel the road more, but I prefer that to loose and numb.

jeffyscott · April 2012

Haven't been here for quite a while, happen to have just spent 7 days and 1200 miles in a brand new (about 650 miles on it, when we picked it up) Sonata rental last week. (Enterprise, insanely, let me do this for only $128 :shades: , and $50 of that was taxes and fees)

The car drove better and was more comfortable than I had expected, but the ridiculously low front passenger seat would put it off the list immediately, were I shopping. I guess it'd be an okay car, if you don't care about the passenger side seat or your partner has a very long torso

.

While the seat was comfortable, I'd prefer a longer seat cushion as in the Optima. I'd also prefer a bit more telescoping of the steering wheel.

benjaminh · April 2012

dcdriver: Yeah, the Sonata turbo is a quite amazing car, esp. for the price. I've heard the rear visibility in the Sonata, right behind the driver, is only so so. Any observations there?

dc_driver · April 2012

I use my mirrors a lot and have not noticed any issues with rear visibility.

Kirstie_H · April 2012

An automotive organization would like to speak with used car buyers who bought cars that they later found out were not up to date on recall repairs. If you are willing to discuss your experience, please email PR@edmunds.com no later than 10 a.m. Pacific /1 p.m. Eastern Friday, April 20, 2012 with your daytime contact information.

naatz1 · April 2012

I also test drove ten new 2012 mid sized cars in late Feb & early Mar before settling on a Camry XLE. Close runner ups were Sub Legacy, Passat TDI diesel (can't get 'em especially premium models 4-6 mon wait) and here too the Optima EX w/premium pkg were flying off the lot (drove one once, it fit the bill despite a smaller interior but they never could get another one in stock). Did not look at a Altima due to prior bad experience w/a rental. Chrysler 200, Buick Lacrosse, Hy Sonata, Chevy old style Malibu, and Honda Accord also missing too many things we wanted like big trunk, b/u camera, dual/auto climate ctl. I was ok with the Fusion but wife didn't like it at all compared to the Camry. In fact I am not "dinging" any of those other cars, they all had pluses/minuses and half will be doing refreshes in the next year so this sub-set of the market is wildly competitive !

So far with over 1500 mis on our new Camry in a month we are still very impressed with the interior room, quiet, and features plus the MPGs are above the EPA figures. There are a few minor design misses compared to our many years of driving mostly Chryslers, but not enough to ding the car about (small side mirrors, auto lites don't come on w/wipers), especially if the reputed reliability holds up since we bought this to be a 10 yr 150,000 mi "road car".

gene84 · April 2012

Don't worry about your Camry XLE hybrid lasting 150,000 miles. My 2004 Prius has over 196,000 miles and is going strong - it's boring meaning no major maintenance problems; no belts, no hoses, no transmission service, no brakes, no shocks, no CV joints, no nothing except a water pump last month (forgot two light bulbs & a sunvisor). MPG is still great.

akirby · April 2012

If you have 196,000 miles on a 2004 vehicle and you haven't changed the belts or hoses you're just asking to be stranded.

stickguy · April 2012

especially odd if you just had the hoses off to do the water pump. Same labor, and hoses don't cost that much.

crkyolfrt · April 2012

It would seem that if a Prius was the car-equivalent of a loaf of bread, it's not only sliced, but homemade and hot.. fresh outta the oven.

Although..I guess the metaphor breaks down.. in that one lasts and the other doesn't.

It's hard to imagine Toyota getting this car so right on so many levels so early in its life. I guess it's not nearly as complex a build as I had presumed and obviously built with stellar components.

Too bad the same can't be said for all generations of the Camry. Specifically, the one previous to the new one.

gene84 · April 2012

Sorry. I forgot that the 2004 Prius has one short belt & one short hose - newer ones have none. Pumps used for cooling, power steering, & brakes, etc. are all electric. This is the future of all cars and eventually all ground transportation. Railroads & large mining dump trucks have been using this for decades.

crkyolfrt · April 2012

Perhaps, but I think the Prius (or Camry hybrid etc) could be even better if offered with a diesel option for those who prefer the efficiency of an oil burner as those very railroads and mining dump trucks use. A diesel option could especially suit a person who uses their Prius often filled with people (heavy loads) or one who lives in very hilly terrain or climates chilly enough that battery efficiency or loads on it are affected.

As a Prius owner, do you often frequent Prius forums that chat about the car?
If so and given the general content if they discuss any weaknesses with the car, in your opinion are you confident that the newer Priuses (to me sounds less silly than Prii) are as well built/dependable as the 2004's? What are the most commonly mentioned weaknesses?

As someone who has done all my own mechanical work over the years, no matter how involved it might become, I admit to being intimidated by a hybrid in that way. It is one thing to re and re an entire component at a potential substantial cost for the part, but quite another to repair that component if possible. The dependability of your Prius sounds almost too good to be true. Maybe it is indeed one of the world's better kept secrets?

benjaminh · April 2012

The Prius is used a lot as a taxi in Canada. I rode in one that had c. 500,000 kilometers on it. The driver said that maintenance issues had been minimal, and far less than any car he had previously had. Because of that and the high mpg it was a pure money maker for him....

The original Prius doesn't seem to be used as a taxi in the US, but perhaps the Prius V will catch on for that here.

benjaminh · May 2012

Toyota Camry / Solara 36,820 20.9 142,225 32.6
Honda Accord 35,385 25.6 96,517 2.3
Toyota Prius 25,168 101.7 86,027 55.7
Toyota Corolla / Matrix 24,804 2.4 93,232 -7.6
Honda Civic 24,423 -8.8 101,592 10.7
Honda CR-V 23,627 9.0 98,214 24.1
Chevrolet Malibu 21,906 -11.3 80,456 9.5
Ford Fusion 21,610 2.0 85,559 -0.8
Hyundai Sonata 20,521 -5.6 75,716 2.9
Ford Focus 19,425 12.5 85,468 57.3
Chevrolet Equinox 18,282 7.1 69,859 15.9
Chevrolet Cruze 18,205 -27.6 75,288 -0.1
Ford Escape 16,986 -20.0 75,590 -2.1
Hyundai Elantra 16,836 -23.8 61,237 -3.3
Nissan Altima 16,239 -5.8 112,599 29.7

Kirstie_H · May 2012

A reporter is looking to interview someone who is paying more than 10% interest on a new car loan. Please reply to PR@edmunds.com today, Wednesday, May 23, 2012.

backy · May 2012

Looks like Nissan is running out of Altimas! At current prices, I can see why. In the past few days I've seen/heard ads for 2012 Altimas (2.5 S) starting at $17k or $119/month for 39 month lease with $2995 down.

Will be interesting to see what happens to Camry and Accord sales once the new Fusion and Altima appear in volume.

stickguy · May 2012

for about $200 a month/nothing down, I might even be interested in one.

backy · May 2012

I saw another deal in the paper yesterday that topped the one on the Altima: $99/month for 36 months with $2995 down on a 2012 Optima LX. And that's a relatively new model.

Looks like the competition is heating up.

benjaminh · May 2012

You're right--the competition is incredible right now. Check out this Honda dealer in Nashville, which is offering 4,000 to even 5,000 off of most models of the Accord. That's a heck of a lot of car for the money. For instance you can get an Accord EX auto there, with a list price of c. 26k for just 21k. Or you can get an Accord SE for 19.9k. I'd go for the EX myself for the Acura engine they put in that model.

http://www.cresthonda.com/index.htm

In my local market in Louisville there are Nissan dealers advertising up to 6000 off of an Altima. The lowest priced ones seem to go for slightly less than 19k.

Of course the Altima and Accord are about to be replaced with all-new models, but if you need a car that is a heck of a deal. What's weird about it is that the huge discounts on the midsize models mean that for just about a thousand more than a Sentra or Civic you can move up to a whole larger and fancier class of vehicle. Not everyone wants or needs a car that large, but man what a lot of great deals...

Oh, and on the Accord you can also get 0.9 financing for 5 years. Not sure if that can combine with 5k off...

backy · May 2012

Kind of off topic, but since you brought it up (and the Sentra does have a mid-sized interior per EPA)... there's great deals on the Sentra now as it too is to be replaced soon, and there should be great deals available on the Civic before the improved 2013 models come out.

I bet you can't get $5k off an Accord PLUS 0.9% for 5 years, but if you can it's a heckuva deal.

While we're talking great deals... similar situation for the 2012 Fusion and Malibu. Great discounts available on remaining cars before the new models come out (for Malibu, the full line of new 2013s; only the mild hybrid is available now I think). And also in the great deals department... VW has some great lease deals on the Passat; e.g. I saw a lease that factoring in the down payment would come out to ~$200 a month, for an S model.

stever · June 2012

Are you an active duty member of the U.S. military in the process of shopping for a new or used car? A news reporter is interested in talking with you. Please contact pr@edmunds.com by June 30, 2012.

kdshapiro · June 2012

I'd sooner get the Camry.

backy · June 2012

If it's worth $60-80 more a month to you than the 2012 Altima, go for it!

[Deleted User] · June 2012

I finally got rid of my 99 Grand Cherokee V8. After 8 years of major service and maintenance costs paid out of pocket, it was time to make a choice to get rid of her. :lemon:

So, I shopped around for a midsize sedan, expecting to take home a new Accord....But the Kia Optima EX really caught my attention. I shopped around from Oct till the last sales day of December.
Fairfax Kia totally gave me the best deal on the Spicy red EX. The sticker was $24,540, but he agreed right away to sell if for $20k flat. I added Lo-jack and extended the warranty to bumper-bumper for 100k. Even my brake pads and tires are covered.

Out the door price, with 3% interest rate, NO DOWN PAYMENT, including tax, fees and tags was 24,000. So, 24k is my total of payments. Payment is 437 a month, 5 years.

So, now that I have had her for 5 months, I have had no problems whatsoever with her. Great car, good looking, and to prove her good looks, I have people walk up on me and say "man I want one of those!!!. The car ranks high in many magazines. I am TOTALLY happy with it!

badgerfan · June 2012

Am I missing something? $437 per month for 60 months totals $26,220, not $24,000. Perhaps your loan value was $24K and the rest interest?

stickguy · June 2012

I think he meant nothing down. You are right that 24K at 3% is about that payment.

justme5803 · July 2012

Bought this car in 2006 and put 5200.00 in it and now the resale value is down to 2000.00 Timing belt, rusted oil pain ( car sits in garage) yearly brakes, starter, sensor, Battery, Radiator and many more items I replaced. I will never buy a Kia again! Not built to last.Money pit! :lemon: :lemon:

stever · July 2012

A reporter is interested in talking to someone who had trouble getting a car loan but finally had success within the last couple of months. If you fit this description, please contact pr@edmunds.com with a brief description of your experience and your preferred contact information by the end of day Tuesday, July 17, 2012.

gene84 · July 2012

Sorry to hear that you had so many problems with your Kia. The Kias I've ridden in are not up to Toyota or Honda standards of finish. Example; my 2004 Prius with over 201,00 mile has had replaced except a water pump at 196,000 miles. There are no belts or hoses to replace or transmission adjustments/tuneups, outside of spark plugs, fluids, & filters nothing has had to be replaced except the water pump. My local Toyota garage doesn't even carry brake shoes in stock since they last so long. They have to be shipped in if and when needed.

fushigi · July 2012

For the record, reduced Prius maintenance is really the result of it being a hybrid more than it being a Toyota. The brakes last a long time because they're secondary to the regenerative system - they're simply used less. The same can be said about many of the traditional ICE components that exist in any hybrid: When being propelled electrically there's little to no wear on the ICE side of things so those components last longer.

That said, the Kia was more problematic that I would expect.

[Deleted User] · July 2012

On the Prius, the lack of wear on it's brake's is due to regenerative braking (which generates friction by spinning a motor backwards thus generating electricity..just like you said). However, I suspect that the lack of brake wear is due to many owners driving 20mph everywhere. "Look at me! I am saving the world!!!". LOL. :P

nyccarguy · July 2012

200K plus on a Prius is impressive! That's someone who gets his money's worth out if the hybrid!

andres3 · July 2012

Bought this car in 2006 and put 5200.00 in it and now the resale value is down to 2000.00 Timing belt, rusted oil pain ( car sits in garage) yearly brakes, starter, sensor, Battery, Radiator and many more items I replaced. I will never buy a Kia again! Not built to last.Money pit!

Didn't Kia's already have the Hyundai 10 year 100K warranty in 2006?

Or did you buy it used? In which case, you took the risk of buying used and you can't really blame the vehicle for that.

backy · July 2012

Well, even with the 10/100 warranty, most of the problems would have been covered only for five years or 60k miles.

Also this particular car, a 2006 Optima, is actually a tweaked Gen 3 Sonata, designed in the mid-'90s--before Hyundai's push for quality vs. only low price. Current Hyundais and Kias are a big improvement over the older cars.

[Deleted User] · July 2012

Yes, I recall the 2006 Kia Optima. My friend had a blue one that looked really nice. The interior was nice too. Nothing too fancy but it had lots of features for the money. Other than replacing the driver side power window motor he had no trouble with it until he sold it with 119k on it about a year ago.

He bought a 2011 and I recall him showing it to me. after researching it (it is STILL a Hyundai Sonata underneath); I found out that the chief designer at Audi AG designed the new Optima line.
Generating 2 cars with one solid uni-body shell and reliable drivetrain is called "Platform Sharing". It cuts development costs drastically, and allows more creative styling with the money saved. There are no body panels shared between the current Sonata and the Optima. Even the interiors are totally different. The suspension tuning is different as well, with the Optima being a bit more sporty and with a 2" wider track.
I purchased my 2012 Optima EX on December 31st 2011. It is a beautiful car to me...but isn't beauty really held by the eye of the beholder?

Thanks for letting me ramble! -Chris

crkyolfrt · July 2012

Wow, 2" difference in track is a lot for two chassis' based off the same platform. That much difference could provide significantly greater g's in corners if the suspension tuning is matched to it, which apparently it is. In theory, this wider track could also trickle down to more elbow/shoulder etc room and even easier to meet side-impact crash standards.

[Deleted User] · July 2012

Car and Driver May 2012 issue has a 6 car comparo called "Hot Six". The Optima EX came in 3rd, but only missed second by 5 points I believe. It defeated the Sonata SE as well.

Hyundai-Kia has come a long way since the 1999 Sephia, which tended to explode directly after leaving the dealership with a signed buyers order.

They are slowly closing in on Honda and Toyota, beating them at their own game. I am not saying they are hands-down the best cars, but they may be the best value on the market in the mid size sedan segment.

pod · July 2012

I don't usually feel one way or the other about a car's appearance but the Altima sedan design of the last 7 years or so struck me as awkward, even ugly at the rear end. Perhaps there is a very long overhang behind the rear wheel but all I think of when I see one is a baby with a loaded diaper. From any other angle the car is fine but in profile it looks very rear end heavy. That aside, why do they sell so well? Don't they all have CVTs? Is there any one remarkable aspect that drives so many people to buy Altimas.

backy · July 2012

They are reliable, comfortable mid-sized cars with exceptional (for 2013) fuel economy, good value (e.g. features like push-button start standard), and (for many) attractive styling compared to more staid designs like the Camry and Accord. Also they handle well for a mid-sized family sedan--at least the previous generation did, I haven't driven the new 2013 Altima yet.

When you think about it, there probably is not one remarkable aspect for any mid-sized family sedan that causes people to buy one. The possible exception might be Camry = reputation for reliability, but it has other attributes also such as a smooth, quiet ride.

pod · August 2012

Thanks for the reply Backy. I think you are right on with the Camry and Accord, they both ride in on a long history of reliability and relative affordability. I wasn't aware that Nissan had such a reputation but have never looked up the numbers. I have a 2010 Milan(Fusion) which is an excellent car in every respect but doesn't come near the Altima in sales despite a very significant refresh in 2010. The Altima has had consistent high sales numbers through the 6 years or so that it hasn't changed at all.
I guess that is a better way to state my puzzlement. The unchanged Altima outsold many of its substantially improved competitors over the past 5 years. That is impressive and puzzling. It certainly has demonstrated consistent appeal and very impressive sales numbers. I'll bet if you asked the man in the street which were the top three mid sized cars in sales numbers they would get Honda and Toyota correct but I doubt more than 25% would guess tha Nissan was consistently riding in third place and about a lap ahead of its other competitors in sales. Impressive. I'll have to drive one.

backy · August 2012

Another reason for strong Altima sales in the previous generation... they were pretty popular in rental fleets. Which is OK by me as they make good rentals, when I can get one. I usually have to get smaller rental cars--corporate policy. My last rental was a creaky Aveo. :P

Midsize Sedans 2.0

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles