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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    so now they don't produce the Fusion in Mexico as well as many of their trucks and engines etc., and they didn't just make a wonderful decision to refit a truck plant down there to produce their new Fiesta?????
    Your continual company shill lines get very tiring and then you accuse me of not having my facts straight? :mad:
  • packer3packer3 Posts: 277
    Three years ago the economy wasn't as it is today so money becomes more important in peoples hands, they will be satisified with a second rat car because they belive what people write about the car especially CR, check out the banging noise from the front end issuse on the Sonta going over simple bumps, did CR report that.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,020
    I said they were refitting truck and suv plants to make more cars and you implied that they were only doing this in Mexico, which isn't true.

    You also conveniently forget that Ford moved Focus production OUT of Mexico and BACK to the U.S. exclusively back in 2005. It works both ways.

    One reason they build vehicles in Mexico is because they can be exported to Latin and South America without tariffs or restrictions.

    Don't gripe about the Fiesta not being built in the U.S. while the Fit, Yaris, Versa and almost all other B cars are also imported. I'm tired of seeing Ford get bashed while the imports get a free pass for doing the SAME THING.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    well don't get too tired of watching Ford get bashed - they deserve it for putting more Americans out of work than any other American based Co. (I can think of) They could have refitted one of the dozens of US plants they have recently closed to build the 'new' subcompact but no-o-o , let's support the Mexican economy. Toyota, Nissan, and Hyundai, for example, can spend literally billions building plants all over this country not to mention provided tens of thousands of employed taxpayers. Right now and apparently in the future the only country that may benefit from Ford's existence is probably Mexico - economically Ford probably does more damage than good in this country, and it's getting worse.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,907
    Thanks for the update on the Accord. I had no idea they were all selling for at least MSRP, since this is not a tough market for selling them.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I'm reading lots of stories on the Accord Prices-Paid and Buying Experience forum about Accords for at least $2,000 under sticker. :P
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,907
    So now it comes down to how wide a car is inside? If someone is tall, or of someone needs to carry two long-legged adults in back frequently, interior height or legroom could be more important than width.

    But if width is important, then I guess the Elantra is definitely mid-sized. It is within fractions of an inch of the width inside of the Mazda6. Plus the Elantra has more front leg room than the Mazda6.

    If you really need those extra inches of steel and plastic outside to call your car "mid-sized", go ahead. To me, it's what's inside that counts.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,907
    That seems very odd, since apparently this is not a challenging market for the Accord. Why would dealers give discounts like that on Accords when they don't have to? :confuse:
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,020
    I'm not even going to respond to such a ridiculous statement. Go find the number of vehicles produced in the U.S. and the total number of people employed by Ford, Honda and Toyota (including sales and service) and report back.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Perhaps the poster is a little optimistic about the model of car they drive.
  • 2002slt2002slt Posts: 228
    That seems very odd, since apparently this is not a challenging market for the Accord. Why would dealers give discounts like that on Accords when they don't have to?

    I was offered one at invoice. Decided the more than $5k savings for a similarly equipped Sonata was a much better deal. :) Not to mention I perfer the Sonata's driveability over the Accord's.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Lets not forget why the domestic brands are having trouble financially. It is not just from lack of product sales, but how much money they have to pay out to the money grubbing UAW Union!!!!! Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai workers here in the U.S. are not members of the UAW, and therefor, are not financially strained by the 85yr olds collecting benefits, pension and other little perks for being a fender stamper 40 years ago. Lets be real here, until the domestics can get rid of the UAW, they will never survive, regardless of how much they improve their product.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    You should tell Toyota that. Apparently they missed the memo about how easy it is to sell cars in this segment. Surely they missed it, since Toyota started offering $199 lease specials, special financing rates, only a few months after the Camry introduction.

    Just because Toyota is selling x number of its Camry units, doens't mean this segment is too easy for them. This is probably the toughest segment of all, especially now since every brand is likely putting their best efforts into their midsize product. Also, all midsize sedans are benefiting to some degree consumers trading down to a fuel efficient car from mostly SUVs.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    So now it comes down to how wide a car is inside?

    It certainly is an important factor, not the only factor. A car that is about 3 inches narrower inside, for most of the interior width meassurements, than the Mazda6 (which many call cramped) is not a midsize.

    But if width is important, then I guess the Elantra is definitely mid-sized.

    Ah, but don't forget that the outgoing Mazda6 is called "cramped" by many. ;)

    Edmunds classifies both the Elantra and the Prius as compacts. I tend to agree with their opinion on this. Maybe you'd like to try convincing them that the Elantra is misclassified, despite it's "compact" exterior dimensions.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    I heard from fairly reliable sources that Honda began offering current Accord owners $6000 off on a new Accord but current owners refused and insisted on paying MSRP because they didn't want to hurt their future resale value. Do you think it could be true???? :D
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    It's really straight forward - usable space. It really doesn't matter how big or small the car is on the outside, it's the interior volume and trunk space that count.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,907
    If Edmunds classifies cars by exterior size, then the Elantra is a compact by their classification scheme. That is one way to classify cars. Another way, e.g. used by the EPA, is by interior volume. Personally, I find that kind of classification to be more useful. And I really like the fact that the Elantra (and Prius and Sentra and Versa) is "compact" on the outside and "mid-sized" on the inside. With gas prices as they will be for the forseeable future, i.e. high, I bet we'll be seeing many more cars that are big inside and small outside--ala the trend in other lands, where gas has been expensive for some time. Classifications based on the outer dimensions of a car will have little meaning then. As I think they do now. :)
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    It's really straight forward -

    what you just said is just your opinion! If that was a fact it wouldn't matter whatsoever what the exterior looked like, a box for example, and that is simply not the case. Length of the car and it's wheelbase have a definite effect on how a car rides. Small cars ride choppier than bigger cars. I'm not saying they ride badly but they do ride different. They might scoot and park easily but I don't think that is what the majority of midsized buyers are looking for IMO.

    BTW, tall people usually have wide wing spans so to speak and appreciate elbowroom as well as headroom.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    they have to pay out to the money grubbing UAW Union!!!!!

    I don't appreciate the UAW all that much but unions were formed in this country for good reasons. They just got corrupted like many companies before and since. Remember it was the car company management that entered into the pension/retiree healthcare agreements with the unions. Why? Because they were making so much money that they believed it didn't matter and never would. Very short sighted I say.

    It takes two to tango and it's all coming back to bite them all in the butts.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    This is not the right place for this recent thread on the manufacturers. Please take it to the more appropriate discussions.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    I was talking soley on the measurement factor, nothing about how the car rides, or anything else within such regard.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    But in regards to measurement, isn't the wheelbase a measurement and doesn't it affect ride? So the "how big or small a car is on the outside" would matter at least to some degree, wouldn't it?

    I do agree that the interior dimensions, for most people, do have a more important role to play overall though.
  • moocow1moocow1 Posts: 230
    Actually I totally agree it's all about width and legroom to determine the REAL interior usable size. Height doesn't mean anything to most normal size people, only seriously tall people. And yes the Elantra really is mid-sized inside, unlike the prius, which is MOST CERTAINLY compact for all usage. Hell it's almost subcompact with how squished 3 tiny people are in the back. Meanwhile I've fit one big, one moderate, one small in the back of the elantra. So yes there is a huge difference between a real mid-size vs a prius.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Honda began offering current Accord owners $6000 off on a new Accord but current owners refused and insisted on paying MSRP because they didn't want to hurt their future resale value.

    Now that's funny. :D
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,601
    Yeah, it's funny because there is a good amount of truth in it when it comes to the mind set of some people's thinking regarding "resale value."
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,907
    Interior height means something to me, in three ways: 1) adequate headroom in the rear (I am only 5'10" but my rather short hair brushes the roof on some sedans); 2) enough headroom so that I can adjust the driver's seat up fairly high, both for good visibility and also to add maximum legroom behind me (for example, when I did this in a Versa there was nearly limo-like leg room in back); 3) enough headroom so that adding a moonroof doesn't cause a problem.

    Another plus for a fairly "tall" car, interior-wise, is that it usually means the seats are fairly high, which makes entry/exit easier, and makes the rear seat more comfortable (providing good thigh support, which is often lacking even in mid-sized sedans).

    A wide car is useful if you need to carry three adults in back on a regular basis. Since I don't, other measurements are more important to me. A wider car means to me that it's harder to fit in my garage, and harder to fit the car into parking ramp spaces that seem to be growing smaller every year. The real downer is a fairly wide car w/o folding mirrors, e.g. Fulan and Sonata.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Sure adequate height, or really adequate head room is important, more than that is not. What is adequate head room can vary for different individuals. But a car can be midsize and still be lacking adequate headroom for a particular purpose. For example the mid-size Mazda6 in hatch form lacked adequate rear seat headroom for my purposes, while the sedan had just enough.

    I think to be classified midsize, one thing a car should be able to do is fit 3 normal width butts in the back seat, on occassion. My Mazda6 can just do that and it is at least tolerable for a trip of a couple hours, in my wife's Jetta you need a shoe horn and then the bodies are kind of over-lapping. The extra ~3 inches make all the difference.

    I'm no fan of super-wde cars, either. Elantra, on paper (I've never been in the current one), looks like it is quite spacious for it's size. The Prius, otoh, is just another compact...that is not to say that it might not be more spacious than some other compacts.

    Passenger volume does not even tell the whole story on how a car feels when you sit in it. In 2005, when we compared the Volvo S40 to the new Jetta, the Jetta felt much more spacious. Yet EPA reports 92 cf passenger space for the S40 and 91 for the Jetta.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I also had a good laugh from a recent Hyundai compaign imploring people to pay more than MSRP for their cars to help resale value. :surprise
  • moocow1moocow1 Posts: 230
    Except for sports cars, I've never found a car where headroom was a big issue. But I've found tons of cars where width and legroom were issues. Adequate headroom seems a dime a dozen.

    The bigger issue is that a car that cannot handle 3 people comfortably is somehow classified midsize. Mid to me means 3 people should be reasonable. While large would obviously hold 3 people well. A prius does not do this. So it's a faux mid.

    The advantages of being exterior being wide or not do not apply in this discussion. It's about how legit the interior mid-size classification is for a prius. And it's quite clearly bs.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,907
    Lack of headroom in back is pretty common I've found, although moreso with cars with swept-back rooflines.

    Everyone has different needs. As I said, if someone really needs room for 3 adults in back on a regular basis, interior width is a big deal. It's just not a big deal for me. I can't remember the last time I needed to carry 3 adults in the back seat. What is a big deal for me is having enough leg room in back for a couple of tall teens (over 6') and a really small, slender girl. They fit just fine in a Prius (I know because we all took one for a long drive once) and even in a Gen 3 Elantra (my current daily driver). So in other words, I need a car with "mid-sized" leg and head room, but I can take "compact" sized width. How do we classify that kind of car? I see interior volume as being just as good as any other way to do that. Certainly if we judge only by exterior size, I have no idea whether everyone will fit inside. And if we judge by width, I have no idea whether there's enough leg room, or headroom.

    Maybe what I am talking about is not compact-sized or mid-sized, but "right-sized". :)
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