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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    If you get a new Sonata for $16,000, and it suffers the industry average 20% deprecation in its first year, you are looking at a car worth $12,800 after year one

    So it "cost" you $3200 in the first year. I suppose you think one is better off if they bought an Accord or Camry for $21,000 and it depreciates at only 80% of your average figure...meaning it loses 16% in the first year or $3380.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    It is an extreme possibility. The displacement seems to give us that idea, but, the Mazda built MZR and the Ford built Duratec usually have different internals, not to mention a different computer tune.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    In theory, yes. However, don't tell that to a Accord or Camry owner who thinks their car does not depreciate and think they can get 80% of original value after 4 years.

    The original questions was in regards to the resale value going up on the Sonata, not how much it "costs" to use it in one year.

    Since Hyundai's have been getting better, their value should increase over time. Lets be honest "it's a Hyundai" does not hold as much weight as "it's a Honda" just yet. The Sonata is a great bargain. Question is, would they sell as well if they cost just as much as an Accord or Camry? I don't think so. Mazda is about to find out if they can sell over the 100K mark with the new Mazda6 using this approach, and abandoning the bargain concept that the current Mazda6 is.
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    One significant factor with resale value is whether a car is sold primarily to individual consumers, vs. sold to fleets such as rental car companies and company fleets, which in turn end up being resold as "demos" or "program cars" at drastically lower prices.

    Honda sells virtually no cars to rental car or company fleets, while it is still relatively common to rent a Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, or many of the domestics. Toyota used to sell Corollas and Camrys to companies like Hertz, but they are doing much less of that today.

    One of the reasons why auto sales are down in 2008 is because many companies are cutting back and buying fewer cars in their fleets. Especially trucks, SUVs, and minivans. This is mostly hurting the domestics.
  • bwiabwia Boston Posts: 1,907
    It would appear that the Malibu is turning out to be a disaster for GM. I don’t know what GM sales projections were for the Malibu but it is way, way below the competition. Based upon June sales figures from the Wall Street Journal the Malibu is not a serious contender in the midsize class. No kind of excuses can explain such dismal sales numbers as shown below.

    Toyota Camry--- 41,572/ -10.8%
    Honda Accord--- 39,704/ +37.3%
    Nissan Altima --- 24,541/ -5.4%
    Hyundai Sonata-- 16,875/ +11.9%
    Chevy Impala--- 16,671/ -53.5%
    Chevy Malibu--- 13,650/ +86.4%

    By the way the Chevy Malibu May sales were 15,634 which was down from April sales. So the data suggests at that rate Chevy will have to give the Malibu away.

    The percentage changes are from comparable June 2007 sales.
  • 03accordman03accordman Posts: 671
    Can anyone explain the dramatic rise in the Accord's sales increase, while most others are going down? I would think that it would have a similar increase/decrease to the Camry at least.

    Good to see Hyundai gain - clearly they have wrought the right changes in the interior - and seeing the new Genesis, I think the next gen Sonata will be something to watch out for.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    It's not the total units sold that dictate a success, but, rather how it compares to what is replaced. In this case, the Malibu is up 86% over June 2007, when GM is at a double digit loss over last June. That tells me that the Malibu has been a success.

    Now, if GM had Camry / Accord sales numbers in their target, then obviously they were way off, and from that stand point, the Malibu is a failure.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Of course, fewer of anything will be sold the higher the price, that goes for Honda and Toyota as well as Hyundai and Mazda. This even applies to gasoline...though it had to go up a lot to cause any decline in consumption in the US. While demand for Accords and Camrys might be less price sensitive than that for Mazda6's and Sonatas, I don't think it is quite as inelastic as that for gasoline.

    I could be wrong, but I would assume that the Mazda6, unlike the Sonata did not start out as a "bargain concept". I think this developed over time...though I'd guess it likely always sold for less than a comparable Camry or Accord.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Yes, but remember, the original question was "I wonder if Hyundai's re-sale value will increase?" My point was that it really cannot if they continue to sell for thousands less then the competition. They will always be worth less then everyone else, which is a direct correlation to how much they paid for it, regardless of how reliable they are.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    Chevy Malibu--- 13,650/ +86.4%

    The percentage changes are from comparable June 2007 sales.

    A "disaster" for GM? Hardly. Not only have they increased their sales (by 86%) from the previous year, when just about all other midsize sales have dropped (even the coveted Camry dropped 11%), but a much-higher percentage of previous-year sales have been to fleets.

    To expect the Malibu to match the CamCord numbers on it's FIRST year of a redesign is simply ludicrous, and I'm sure GM has known this from the start.
  • packer3packer3 Posts: 277
    On paper for GM 86% is an increase over June 07, in real sales dollars (after the money that was invested on the new BU) those numbers aren't that great, when they are selling 40,000 BU's a month thats truly a success to the bottom line.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    If I've read correctly, the most recent problem with the Malibu has been a strike at a the manufacturing plant in Kansas, restricting production.

    Fairfax Strike on
  • 03accordman03accordman Posts: 671
    Well, the previous Malibu was a failure for GM, no wonder they were 86% less than this June. For the new one, I guess we need more time to be able to assess whether it is a failure or a success. Also, while we don't know what GM internal targets are for the new one, I am fairly sure they would be more than where they are today.

    We can probably call it at the end of the year.....
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the most recent problem with the Malibu has been a strike
    and a better but still second rate product - again. The last Malibu was supposed to be the car that 'saves GM' - and it sure did flop. Anybody remember PATCO?
  • 03accordman03accordman Posts: 671
    But I wouldn't think that the 'low' sales figures are due to Car shortages, I am sure like other models, GM has quite a few in inventory.

    This is the time for GM to really push; it has put out some very good cars out there in the last year or so (Malibu, Aura, Astra etc.) - high fuel prices should benefit all small cars (not that Malibu/Aura are small, but large SUV owners would see that differently). I do see a lot of Nissan Versas, Toyota Yaris and Honda Fits on the road these days.

    I really think GM should have (Sorry off topic) a parallel Chevy model for the Astra - that seems to be a heck of a good car.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I'd say the Malibu is no longer the bottom of the barrel car it used to be quality-wise. It's no Accord or Camry, but then again, to me, the new Accord and Camry aren't what they used to be either. The Malibu needs a fuel-efficient V6 and a 10% larger interior.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    granted it is improved - but, then again, almost anything would have been an improvement. It should tell us all something though when we can look at genuinely competitive efforts like the Sonata and then wonder why our own 'Big 3' could only wish to manufacture something that good.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I'd go so far as to call it "competitive" with the Japanese Big Three.

    Based on my limited time with the models, my ranking would be:

    Altima - Sporty character, right size, great 4-cyl acceleration and economy
    Accord - Comfortable size, best "drive" of the bunch, but too big and stodgy now for this young man
    Sonata - Value leader, pleasing ride and economy, but otherwise a yawn
    Malibu - Easily the most stylish to this young man, decent economy with the 6-speed/4-cyl combo, but lacking room and polish
    Camry - Do I even have to go there? I fall asleep typing about...ZZZZZZZZZZ
  • bwiabwia Boston Posts: 1,907
    To expect the Malibu to match the CamCord numbers on it's FIRST year of a redesign is simply ludicrous, and I'm sure GM has known this from the start.

    Perhaps you failed to notice that sales are trending down every month, not up. GM spent over $100 million on sales promotion on this new Malibu, a figure higher than for the Accord, Camry and Altima combined.

    Still, the 86% increase from June 2007 is not a valid comparison as the new Malibu is a totally different car that was expected to appeal to a wider audience including the coveted import buyer. Instead what they got with the new Bu is an older demographic. Well, it won't be long before they turn to the Impala playbook. Heavy discounting and other sales incentives such as zero percent financing and free OnStar and XM for life.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the Ecotec 4 banger I would suggest to you is the Malibu's biggest liability particularily in a class (and at a time) where the 4s far outsell the 6s. The Fusion and Sebring engines are further testament to Detroit's inability to produce good small engines.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,001
    The Fusion gets a new 2.5L I4 in December.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    even if it is better - too little too late? A good engine of any type is a lot more than what it says on a spec sheet.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    If it isn't too late for the Mazda 6, it isn't too late for the Ford Fusion.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    well now that's an interesting question - is it too late for the Mazda 6? - or more precisely can the Mazda ever be a major player in this segment - given its definitively limited market segment. The Fusion, at least, is a bit more 'mainstream' and therefore has more of a market presence.
    Wonder what ever happened to plans to put a decent V6 in the Ford. I guess the Mazda 6 gets blessed with something more competitive simply because it sells many fewer copies than the Ford version.
    I'm sure that akirby will be happy to fill us in on the latest 'promise' out of a long list of unfufilled promises.
  • moocow1moocow1 Posts: 230
    I think you guys read my question wrong. When I say resale value increase, I mean increase over current resale values. I don't mean having the same resale dollar amount as a Camry or Accord. I don't care about that at all. All I care is the resale amount in comparison to my buy price. That's the ONLY number that matters.

    Hypothetical Example:
    2009 Sonata bought at $16.5k, retail cost 20k, resale value after 3 years at 11k, 33% loss off buy price, 45% loss off retail
    2009 Camry bought at $19k, retail cost 20.5k, resale value after 3 years at 13k, - 31.5% loss, 37% loss off retail.

    Let's say these are the numbers for resale. On a dollar amount, the sonata is worse. On a percentage, the sonata is worse. On the ACTUAL costs, the sonata completely wins. You paid less to start, you paid less overall after selling.

    Nobody freaking actually uses these values. All I ever see is bs with resale percentages and resale based off retail and resale based off completely wrong "True market values". Sonata blows everyone away in costs using legit values that I've calculated myself. This doesn't even include the extra value of having cash from not paying more up front.

    Anyways my original thought is that the sonata might improve from selling for 11k in 3 years to being 11.3k or something. A sensible change due to a better car and increasing interest.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,905
    One of the reasons some mid-sized cars are not being sold as much to fleets is because of a choice by the manufacturer to reduce fleet sales. Hyundai has done this with the Sonata, Ford said it would cut back on Fusions going to fleets, and so forth. I still see a lot of Toyotas, including Camrys and Corollas, and also Priuses :surprise: in fleets (specifically Hertz, from which I rent a lot of cars). But since Toyota sells tons of Camrys and Corollas to private parties, the number of fleet sales as a percentage of total sales might be relatively low compared to other makes, even if the number of cars sold to fleets is significant.
  • moocow1moocow1 Posts: 230
    How can any car be too late unless it's actually worse than current models? The market will ebb and flow. I can bet you guys that in 10-15 years, the camry and/or accord will no longer be on top. At least one will definitely fall and be replaced by another top selling model. Who knows which of the current pretenders it is. But just like how the Camry and Accord took over the top spot 1990s, someone else could push them off. It's really a matter of gaining the reputation and loyal customers to keep buying your car. Toyota and Honda did that, but the tide seems to be changing for toyota finally. The mazda 6 looks like a very good car actually. Of course mazda itself doesn't have the mindshare or reputation to be a top seller....yet. If they make giant strides over the next 10-15 years, who knows?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,001
    Mazda is building their 3.7L in their own factory and in rather small volumes compared to Ford's 3.5L/3.7L which is going in the MKS, Flex, MKX, Edge and MKZ exclusively - that's close to 400K vehicles per year right there.

    The 2010 Fusion gets an improved 3.0L with 240 hp and better fuel economy. It is supposed to get a limited version with the 3.5L also. Add in the hybrid and the new 6 speed trannies for the 4 cylinder models and it's competitive.

    It's a solid car getting a lot of improvements after only 3 years. Nothing to apologize for.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,905
    On a dollar amount, the sonata is worse. On a percentage, the sonata is worse.

    Was there a typo in there? Using your numbers, I came out with the Camry doing worse in terms of dollars (loss of $6000 after 3 years vs. Sonata at $5500). Which illustrates the point I made earlier very well--the higher-priced car tends to come out well on depreciation on the percentages, maybe not as well as dollars out of pocket.
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