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However, the closest SEL Jetta was over 600 miles from here (according to the dealer), and quite frankly, the higher line options were limited on the Jetta. I the looked at the Passat, but it listed 3-4 grand higher than the loaded Altima that I finally purchased, and had significantly less options, along with better mileage
Maybe that explains why so few Passats are out and about, although I really liked the car a lot..
There was a show on the National Geographic Channel a couple of days ago on the Hyundai plant in Alabama. It also had a segment on air-bag manufacturing.
I feel sure it will be replayed 2 or 3 more time over the next couple of weeks....
The same will be true of the new Mazda6, when it comes out (5500 were sold in Feb this number may go up, but is not going to suddenly become a camryesque 15,000).
For folks looking for something less commonly seen in this class, maybe the Passat is it. Or Galant. Both are pretty low volume.
I see though that even though the Passat sells in very low numbers and is on the cusp of this class in terms of price, it has replaced the Optima on the links on the right. Farewell, Optima--we hardly knew ye.
I'd guess the entire 6 year run of the current Mazda6, might about equal about 1 year of Camrys...for the Passat (or Galant) it would take a decade or more.
http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/.eea54a5?@@
So the I4 powertrain is on par with what the Sonata and most other mid-sizers offer in their four-banger mid-sizers, but the V6 remains a weakling in this group--just 15 hp more than the I4. And ABS (and ESC) remains optional. Not up to snuff in this class. I don't think there's any other car in the class that doesn't have ABS standard, and several offer ESC standard either across the board or on some trims.
At least there's an SX variant for 2009 with a sport-tuned suspension--sounds kinda like the 2009 Sonata SE idea.
OTOH, her steering wheel does not telescope out enough to suit me plus mine is leather covered and has audio controls on it. I also have a power seat and alloys.
Not sure about being much more expensive to maintain, the only difference I have noted, so far, is the Jetta required a brake fluid change at 24 months. The Mazda6 does not specify any brake fluid changes on their schedule. The Jetta does require synthetic oil, but changing once per year for $55 will actually cost me less than changing the Mazda6 the required three times per year at $20-25.
Now on the mid-size Passat, with turbo, you might have to change the synthetic oil every 6 months or 5000 miles...so that would cost a bit more.
Go over to the board for the Passat for Prices paid. You will see a post for excessive cost to maintain and one person is complaining about an engine problem. I am aware that the Mazda6 board has a few engine problems.
My opinion on the Jetta is it compares to a Corolla and a Mazda3. I realize it was bigger than both of those cars; not sure how the new Corolla stacks up to a Jetta.
Brake fluid should be changed every few years in any car. Brake fluid absorbs moisture, and will eventually kill the master cylinder seals, if not some other brake components besides. I'm sure the brake fluid in the Mazda 6 is no different from other brake fluids.
To those thinking the non-VCM V6 is a lot torquier, it'll explain why.
We have an 11 year old, 110,000 mile windstar and have never changed brake fluid...other than whatever got changed during two brake jobs. Have had other cars that were 12-14 years old and never changed brake fluid (some were bought used, so it is an unlikely possibility that a previous owner replaced fluid at some point). We have never had a need for any brake work on any of our cars, other than pads, rotors, and shoes. So I really wonder how much truth there is to this idea that brake fluid must be changed.
Funny thing on the Mazda6, the schedules for the US, which also covers Canada and Puerto Rico, does not specify brake fluid changes but the schedule for Mexico does specify it every 2 years or 40K km. I planning to ask about this difference when I am at the dealer some time in the next year.
What about the other mid-sizes that are the topic here? Do the manufacturers specify brake fluid changes in the maintenance schedule?
A case in point: A child was killed in an accident when the five-year old minivan with 79,000 miles on it his parents were driving suffered loss of pedal and crashed while the family was driving in the mountains of Washington state. Fluid boil was blamed as the cause of the accident.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/bfluid.htm
There are many recurring maintenance items not mentioned in the owners manual. The manufacters do this to keep the projected maintenance cost down.
On my motorcycle, there are 2 independant brake circuits for the calipers and ABS control module.. The "wheel" circuit needs changing every 2 years. The circuit in the ABS module gets changes every 3 years.
The 03 Accord owner's manual states to change the brake fluid every 3 years, regardless of miles. You would be surprised to see how dirty the fluid was, despite having never opened the cover on the master cylinder.
The salesman couldn't find any 4 cylinders with nav in the main lot so he went to the back lot and found a clearly un-PDI'd gold EX-L with Navi after over 30 minutes.
The car was filthy and I was surprised he didn't bother to even clean the heavy layer of dust off the windshield in all that time he was gone before bringing the car around.
He knew nothing about the nav system, so I tried to play around with it to see what I could figure out without aid of the owners manual. I was able to get a few voice commands to work because I knew some phrases based on reading online message boards. It was a bit too complicated an unintuitive though. Most people will either need to read the manual or spend a lot of time in trial and error to even input an address.
On the test drive, he directed me to drive about 1.25 miles in a loop of 4 right turns back to the dealership. When he had me make the first turn away from the freeway, I was silently thinking: "You moron! This is not an acceptable test drive at all. Now I'm going to go to another dealer and get a real test drive to see how it feels on the highway and never come back here again."
2 minutes later, we were back at the dealership and I stepped out and told him "I'm going to look at other cars, good-bye."
However, even in that few minutes I was able determine that the car had rattles. There was a rattle/squeak coming from the navi disc drive area below the HVAC controls and another coming from somewhere around either the passenger door or passenger seat. I have heard rattles in another EX-L, so I give up on it now. 2 out of 2. I may still try an LX-P at another dealership to see if the simpler interior without sunroof and the extra plastic console pieces is less rattle-prone.
When I drove down the street I noticed a Chevy dealer and decided to take another look at the Malibu. The salesman who met me was stereotypical with a fake tan, hair gelled back, and he smelled like a combination of cigarettes and cologne. He seemed to be an old-school high-pressure type of salesman.
I sat in a Malibu 1LT 4 cylinder and immediately noticed it was less roomy. I fit in the back seat, but it was tight and my knees were in the seatback cutout designed for that purpose. It seemed to have about the same headroom without the moonroof as the Accord had with a moonroof. It was almost like a 4-door coupe because some space was sacrificed for styling (low-ish roofline).
The Malibu wasn't as comfortable to sit in the back seat because there was no room to stretch out. Then I drove it. We went on about a 15 minute drive out to the freeway then down a few exits before coming back on surface streets,
The Malibu just felt so much smoother and quieter without wallowing around like a Buick or Camry and I could tell it would be nicer to drive on a daily basis than the Accord. No rattles at all.
If I needed to carry tall people in the back everyday, I would lean towards the Accord so they could stretch out and experience the comfort of the flip down center armrest, but I don't need to do that, so now I'm leaning towards the Malibu.
I know the Accord is likely to have much better resale value when I sell it in 5 or 6 years, but I need to live with it for 5 or 6 years first, so that makes it a harder sell.
There is also the Camry to consider which will have close to the same room and resale value of the Accord with a smooth and quiet ride, but from what I remember of driving a Camry, the Malibu was still nicer to drive beause it handles better than the Camry, yet is just as quiet.
Regarding the Nav., consider a top level portable unit, no mater what make car you end up buying. (for example, you should be able to get a really nice Garmin w/ bluetooth for well under $500. ) Nice to be able to change it from car to car, take on trips or a local rental car.
What exactly is the reason for buying a car with a built-in nav unit, when I can buy a portable unit (Tom Tom / Garmin)???
With advancing technology, I'd bet that in 5 years time, any built-in unit will seem as modern as a built-in 8-track cassette player on a 1973 Oldsmobile.
I'd rather just buy a more basic car, and buy the latest portable nav system throughout the car's life.
What am I missing :confuse: ?
Sometimes people don't get it, see it later, and are then posting "I just rode in a car with factory nav and now wish I had the got the nav. How can I get it retrofitted in my car now?"
Now, I have seen it and know I wouldn't have any regrets skipping it.
The Malibu comes with a year of OnStar TurnByTurn navigation, that will likely have eNav on 2009 models which allows you to get your destinations by looking them up on MapQuest and e-mailing them to the car instead of always talking to a live operator after you get into the car. If I buy the Malibu, I may be able to get by with it TurnByTurn for a year and then I can buy the then latest portable GPS the year after that if I don't think renewing OnStar Directions and Connections package is worth $299 per year (or $100 extra if I was going to keep the basic "Safe and Sound" package for $199 when the trial expires.
Hopefully more car makers will come out with something like this...which is currently available for Nissan Xterras and Frontiers.......gives the portable GPS a fighting chance not to get stolen and a cool docking station.
A new map for a portable unit is more like $75 and you will be able to buy an entire new GPS with newer interface periodically for about the price of just the DVD for the factory nav. Some may just buy a newer generation portable every other year (or even every year) instead of buying map updates. In 5 years, you will have a much nicer portable that will do many things the 5 year old factory nav cannot.
There is also the up front cost of the factory nav. Not only is the option cost often $2000, it also requires upgrading to a top of the line trim level and/or getting mandatory options packages that will make the cost of the upgrade several thousand dollars for those who only wanted the nav and not everything else you need to get before factory nav is available.
You do not have to mount a portable on the windshield. In at least a couple states it's illegal. There are other mounts like the Nav-Mat that you can put on the dash and sometimes they can fit in the lower console or in a cupholder with or without the mount.
The only disadvantage is when you use the portable, you will have to take 5 seconds to pick it up and move it to the glove compartment or other storage compartment when you park. If you do that, then there is no sign of it and no theft risk. However, if you need to use your GPS every day and get in and out of your car several times a day, that might become a hassle. That's not my situation, so pulling it out a few times a week won't be a big deal.
If more cars had places to mount and store a portable GPS like in those photos, then that would solve the biggest inconvenience.
Much of it confirms what I presumed (people wanting an "integrated look")
As far as theft, I assume I would rarely need to use a nav, so I'd only pull it out when absolutely necessary, so hiding it repeatedly isn't a big issue.
FWIW- I spend my workweek on the road visiting businesses all over western Washington (many of which I've never been to before). If I really get stumped, I just pull out my old-tech Thomas guide.
It's really hard to imagine many people spending more time than I do searching for new addresses.
Admittedly, I'd like to have a nav system in a rental car when I'm in another state or country, but for my own vehicles, I can find much better spots to park my cash.
Just my $.02 :confuse:
If I had to rely on the portable GPS's portable bluetooth speakerphone, that would mean I would have to pull the GPS out all the time so it would be ready to receive calls even when I didn't need any map routing.
With factory bluetooth, I will be able to keep the portable stored away except for when I need to use it.
With the Accord, you have to either upgrade to the EX-L with nav to get bluetooth or have the dealer install the accessory bluetooth for about $700 that has less functionality (no steering wheel controls or stereo integration and caller-id).
So, factory bluetooth is much more important to me than factory navigation.
When I bought my Sebring last September it came with a MyGIG multimedia system that included GPS nav. I probably wouldn't have ordered it from the factory with MyGIG but it came with a car that had exactly everything else I wanted.
Harman Becker is the actual manufacturer of the unit and they've already released two application software updates. These are free to download. Gracenotes database updates for music files are also free. Factory Bluetooth, hands-free voice commands with a 1,000 word vocabulary, a 30 GB HDD for storing music and pics, a turn-by-turn GPS nav with real-time traffic routing, Sirius satellite, DVD movies and more.
I recently added a backup camera that I can view even if I'm driving 70 mph down the highway. That's interesting. It also turns on automatically whenever I shift into reverse, even if the MyGIG is off. Part of the camera addition now lets someone watch a DVD movie while in motion. Not that I'd watch a movie while driving - it's a passenger option.
MyGIG Multimedia System
At first I had a picture of your shifting into reverse at 70 mph to turn on the camera! :confuse:
What kind of process do you go through to download the updates for the system? This sounds like what's in a Town and Country a friend is thinking of buying and he's not very techcapable. Send email if you feel this is going off topic.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That did sound a bit misleading. I corrected the wording. You just have to be in FM mode and press the on/off button twice to turn it on whenever you want. It's part of an aftermarket kit called MyGIG Lockpick.
Here's a site for MyGIG updates: Unofficial MyGIG Information Site
To update the application software or Gracenotes you download the file to your PC. It can be as large as 370 MB or more. You then have to burn it to a DVD. The update installs automatically when you insert the DVD and takes around 15-20 minutes. Detailed instructions are on the website.
So far, the likelihood is:
2009 Malibu LT/LTZ 4 cylinder
2009 Camry LE with VSC and JBL (JBL required for factory bluetooth)
2009 Camry SE or XLE with VSC and JBL (less likely because no folding rear seat)
2008/2009 Camry Hybrid with JBL. (less likely because I would prefer a full sized trunk).
2008 Accord LX-P (less likely, because I would prefer something quieter and with integrated bluetooth)
2009 Sonata 4 cylinder Limited or GLS (less likely because no fully integrated bluetooth and Hyundai resale might be worse than even the Malibu). I might still buy it for the right price.
2009 Malibu Hybrid (less likely because the hybrid adds only a couple MPG and makes the trunk pass through a bit smaller, though much less of a problem than the Camry Hybrid's trunk). Why bother with it for 2 MPG?
Not really considering any other sedans like Altima, Sebring, Galant, Legacy, Fusion etc because they have deal breaker issues that I will not compromise on, so I won't even bother to test drive them.
The 2010 Fusion that comes out in January 2009 may be OK, but I may not wait that long before making a purchase.
Not trying to change your mind, but I was wondering what your issues are with these vehicles...just curious, I guess...
The regular 4 cylinder Altima isn't available with VSC, and the hybrid has a tiny trunk that doesn't even have a pass-through for long objects. At least the Camry Hybrid has a fold down rear seat with a small opening to allow you to car long objects that fit through the opening and you can stack more stuff on the fold down rear seats without damaging the cushions.
Several of the cars like the Fusion and Galant don't have VSC and the Galant is too ugly anyway. I don't like the way the Sebring/Stratus looks inside or out and reviews are mostly bad and resale will probably be worse than even a Hyundai Sonata. I don't need all wheel drive especially with a 4-speed automatic and so-so gas mileage of the Legacy that's worse than a V6 in some other cars.
I haven't test driven a 2009 4 cylinder Sonata yet, but it doesn't have full-integrated factory bluetooth and I will have to drive it to see how it compares to the others.
I can "live with" the dealer-installed bluetooth, so it's still on the list, but it's lower down the list since both the Camry and Malibu have all the features I want.
I won't use the back seat that often, so the advantage of a bigger back seat over the Malibu isn't a big plus and the Camry is quite roomy in the back, so the Sonata has no advantage over the Camry in that item. If I didn't have to order and wait 8 weeks to get an LE with VSC and JBL and it drove and handled as nicely as the Malibu, I would just get the Camry without hesitating or looking at anything else.
I might have to order the Malibu to get the exact combination of features I want in a specific color, but there is probably at least a 50% chance they will be able to locate it in stock from another dealer.
To get the Sonata, I will have to like it at least as much as the Camry and pay much less so the net after resale is still in it's favor.
I still don't get the idea of having a hard drive in a car. I couldn't believe how long it took to copy a CD to the drive. You also couldn't listen to the CD or any audio source while it was doing it.
One of the issues with all the systems is that they are very dependent on the meta-data associated with the audio file. When my friend put a burned CD, gracenotes couldn't find the songs.
I was also very surprised at the number of features that are locked out while driving in MyGig (and if you look at my posts on the cell phone debate, I am pretty conservative). I can understand blocking streaming video or an address entry task, but it wouldn't let me select playlists. I also don't really care for the way it organizes music.
SYNC doesn't organize anything it just uses the structure that is on your personal device (read: iPod).
Having a Garmin with a 3-4" display is helpful while traveling, but if you rely on a nav system a lot, I would think it would be worth the bucks for a simpler, easier to use interface.
There are some other differences too, like the warranty on the hand held units is like a year, and the one built in is 3-10 years depending on the manufacturer. There are also federal requirements that apply to the built in systems (and some other industry guidelines) that the hand-helds don't need to worry about (well, at least until they start getting sued).
I bought a portable Garmin with traffic for less than $400 last fall and it was very simple to use. I could get a nicer unit for the same price this year.
After seeing 2008 Accord's nav in action it wasn't worth the premium of jumping from an LX-P to an EX-L to get that system. That is several thousand dollars. Not worth that many bucks when you didn't want the EX-L trim's other extras and I would lose access to traffic service with it anyway. Then I was turned off by the EX-Ls many rattles and won't consider it with or without nav.
One thing I was surprised to hear is that many of automobile systems that do have traffic only "show" you the traffic, they don't route around it automatically like the Garmin does. A new generation Acura nav is offering that as a new feature and I couldn't believe their current system wasn't doing that all along.
I have never heard of any car that has a warranty on nav or even an extended warranty on it for 10 years. Not that you would want to be still using a 10-year old nav system anyway. It will be a very antiquated system in 10 years even if the manufacturer would still sell you updated maps for it after that period.
It takes around 10 minutes to copy an entire CD to the HD. I've been putting all my music CDs on the drive so I won't have to bother with carrying them around. The initial setup takes a bit of effort but then I have everything available in one place.
When my friend put a burned CD, gracenotes couldn't find the songs.
The Gracenote database is constantly being updated. Updates can be downloaded for free and burned to a DVD to update the MyGIG database. The dealer might charge to do this or I've heard Harman Becker (the MyGIG manufacturer) will mail out an update disc on request. I'm not sure if they charge for that.
I can understand blocking streaming video or an address entry task, but it wouldn't let me select playlists. I also don't really care for the way it organizes music.
Hmm...I don't have any trouble selecting albums from my playlist as I'm driving along. The only thing related to the playlist that it won't let me do while driving is to rename one. It has something to do with the keyboard screen being disabled while in motion. The same block also disables inputting street names while driving.
I've gotten around that by installing a plug-in module called a MyGIG Lockpick. Like the name implies, it unlocks features that would normally only be accessible when in park. When it blocks me from renaming a playlist after I've copied a CD while driving I just toggle the on/off button twice and the Lockpick overrides any blocks.
I can understand why it would block this feature. I'm surprised at how difficult it is to drive in a straight line while trying to type something on that screen. If a cop saw me I'd probably get pulled over, thinking I was drunk. I never use the keyboard when any other traffic is anywhere near me.
The reason I don't think the playlist select option is blocked by default while in motion is that I never have to toggle the on/off button to select an album. Also, the playlists are arranged in alphabetical order. I group things together by artist. For instance, I'll name any Eagles CDs "Eagles Long Road Home" or "Eagles Greatest Hits", etc. You said something about not liking the way it organizes music.
Verzion just announced VZNAV v4 with traffic and a ton of other enhancements for the same $9.99/mo. And I don't have to worry about updating my maps. :surprise
Way too clunky.
Each to his own, I guess...However, I disagree with you on this one.
To many, it makes a lot of sense. Built-in units are much more apt to remain in the vehicle (ie., not stolen), and quite convenient for those who use them in their everyday travels, such as salespeople. And, in many cars, they already provide the desire you stated above...a well integrated GPS system WITH handsfree bluetooth for your phone.
As for being obsolete, you can also use that logic with almost anything electronic...even radios. In a few short years, all cars will have HD radio as standard, and just like digital TV is eliminating analog TV in 2009, the same will happen to radio later on down the line.
I'm not trying to pick your opinion apart here, but attempting to show why, to many, a built-in system is "value-added".
In my opinion, its an option that I chose to buy. Yes, I paid more for it than a portable unit, but I also got more...so, for me, it was the right choice.
Its all in how you view it, I guess....
And you can just yank it from the cradle and drop it in your pocket or center console out of sight. 5 seconds.
It amazes me that people spend $2000 for something that you can buy at Best Buy for $200.
However, I would hazard to guess that many of the readers on this forum would disagree about the theft assessment. Some folks will steal anything that they can get their hands on, valuable or not....
You obviously have formulated the opinion that anyone who disagrees with you on this issue is automatically wrong and quite possibly somewhere between ignorant and stupid, and that is your right...so be it.
In any case, you don't have to look beyond the NAV-equipped new car sales figures to see that a factory installed NAV system is popular. If it wasn't a desired option, those cars equipped with them would simply sit on a lot and not sell...
So, I suggest that you enjoy your portable NAV system and let those who prefer a factory unit enjoy theirs....
No you don't and for my usage it's all you can eat navigation and minutes free while I'm using the application. My plan is about 1 year old and I don't have a data plan.
Cell phone navigation may not be for everybody, it works perfectly for me and I never have to worry about software updates. And my navigation device is always with me. And it supports bluetooth and mp3s.