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Even if all of our cars had factory NAV, we'd still need a portable unit to cover those vacations that involve getting on a plane & picking up a rental car at the other end.
But there's an an option between factory and portable -- aftermarket in-dash. Recently I saw a double-DIN Kenwood NAV/Radio/CD/DVD/MP3 with a 7 or 8 inch LCD that had Garmin navigation. The NAV menus were just like other Garmins.
This is the first test I've seen of the 6-speed manual in a non-turbo model.
Bob
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=153789
This statement about sums it up for me:
But if you were hoping this new Outback was going to remain a tidy AWD wagon made smarter for you and roomier for guests, you'll be disappointed with Subaru's newest SUV.
I know that I, now age 64, look at cars much differently than when I was in my 20s or 30s (even though I drive a WRX!). Something to think about...
Bob
I just recently purchased a new Tom-Tom portable to replace my 5-year old Garmin, which I use while travelling. I find the new unit, a touch screen, to be very difficult to operate while driving. The older Garmin, with ATM style button control was much easier. Still, I find myself using my Nav almost daily to check traffic on the way to work, find a bite to eat, etc. Will I really be happy with the new higher-end portables? Has anyone seen a portable with weather service?
Bob,
You are still young. At 77 I know my automotive tastes have changed from Corvette,MGs motorcycles and engine-swap modifieds to wagons that permit good outward vision and hold large garden tools. But editors must attract young enthusiasts so youthful bias can keep automotive interest alive.
Dave
How does the CVT compare?
I remain a fan but at this time am a disappointed one.
My first exposure to factory Nav was in a loaner 06 Tribeca I had for a full week. That got me fascinated with it, but I also saw some limitations:
* OE option cost was very high
* could not even find gas stations while moving on a trip
* touch screen was far away from the driver
* no backup cam (fixed since, but Forester still lacks one)
Since then I'll add several more:
* map updates come seldom and cost a whopping $230
* residuals are worse with than without nav, because they get outdated quickly
* you cannot load custom POI databases
* can't take the with you to use in rental cars, which I do
* hard (impossible?) to transfer favorites from one car to the other
Dennis from the Subaru Crew introduced me to his Garmin StreetPilot c340, and I haven't looked back since. I've owned a c320 (sold it), c340, Nuvi 200w, and Nuvi 260w.
You list 3 cons, I'll react to each.
Operation while driving - actually it's better, because you can operate while driving. Take it out of safety mode, and your passenger can find the nearest gas station. To re-enter a desination in the Tribeca we had to PARK! :mad:
This is absurd. Subaru has a passenger detector in the seat for the airbags, so it knows there is someone there to use it, yet it locks you out.
The screen and buttons are bigger, yes, but they're farther away, you have to reach quite a bit.
What I did with my portables was I bought a vent-mount. On my mininvan and on my wife's Forester, this puts the GPS very close to you, within arm's reach, and much closer than the Tribeca's. That compensates somewhat for the smaller size. It is harder to see but actually easier to type on the closer touchscreen.
Having to remove the unit while parking? With the vent mount I put a hat over the entire thing so it's disguised. I'm still taking some risk but less than a suction cup on the windshield, which draws attention from far away.
Short-lasting mounting systems - I didn't like the suction cup because they would fall on those ultra-hot summer days, but the vent mount has resolved that problem and cost under $10. To be honest my wife still uses the suction cup and it has lasted for several years, but I prefer the vent mount.
Garmin > Tom Tom, I agree there.
Have not tried weather service or traffic service, but I'd like to.
Keep in ming the price levels - I paid $179 for my fanciest Garmin, so we're talking 1/10th the price of the 6" screen on the Forester.
We bought an 09 Forester and I sampled the Nav. 6" screen, no backup cam, no Bluetooth last year (fixed for 2010), can't use while in motion, can't take voice commands. No thanks. I'm not sure I would have bought it for half price, to be honest. It's very low tech and outdated for the price.
The Outback's is much better, 8" screen, backup cam, bluetooth. So at least it's complete. That I would consider, at least. Plus it's closer to you than the Tribeca's touch screen was. I'd like to see traffic integrated and maybe voice commands.
If I test drive an Outback I'll ask for one with Navi because I'm curious to see how much better it is compared to the Forester.
tlc mentioned the Kenwood in-dash head units, and they sell for $600-800, with Garmin navigation. Those have 6.5" screens IIRC, and you can add backup cams for $99 more, though you'd have to have it installed by a pro.
Still, for about 1/3rd the cost of the Forester's Navi, you'd be way ahead in technology. I think I'd do that.
I'd consider the Outback's simply because it's more updated, but the price would still be hard to swallow.
Bob (being anal, as usual) :P
You sure the visible image is 7"? It did not seem that big.
I took a photo of my 4.3" screen right next to the factory screen. The portable is closer, so that helps, but the difference in practice was fairly small.
I bet your 5" screen, mounted closer on a vent-mount, would be basically the same size.
Lemme see if I can dig up that photo.
I have not been able to personally experience the 2010 OB Nav yet, but I understand it is much improved from previous systems. Unless it can be used while driving and integrates to traffic (this should be a no-brainer since Subaru already works with XM!), it will unlikely meet my needs. I do also like the idea of a backup camera, a truly integrated bluetooth and ipod system that is also part of the OB Nav as well. As I have said before, I really want to buy a Subaru, but the techno gadgets or lack of them is worrying me. I appreciate that many drivers may not appreciate such conveniences, but I drive 25K + mi each year.
One comment on updating maps... I have been using portable GPS since they came out. You can easily go 3-4 years, without updating and still achieve full usage. In fact, I tend to replace my portables, rather than update. I find that the changes in POI's usually cause me to upgrade before the road changes.
Thanks again!
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f178d36/987#MSG987
Check it out closely. At the time I seemed to think the Forester's screen was 6.1", maybe that's the visible image size.
Check it out, the Garmin screen is 4.3 or 4.4", depending upon who you ask (CR says 4.4"), but mounted closer the OE unit is only very slightly bigger.
Honestly, Bob, I think your 5" screen would be the same size as the factory one in that closer position.
For $430 and with many more features, not $1800.
Bob
For $65 an update, no biggie.
For $230, ouch. At least you can split it in half if you find someone who wants the west coast DVD. $115 is acceptable, I suppose.
Still, for that much you can get lifetime updates from Garmin.
Like you, I replaced one of my GPS units, actually sold it to a friend, and bought a bigger screen.
I may do the same with my nuvi 200W. They cost $149 new, if I can get $99 for it (with 2008 maps), it would make more sense for me to buy a new one rather than spend $65. If so I may get either a bigger screen (5") or one with traffic, or both. :shades:
Check out p.18 (I think?) on the specs page under "Optional Equipment." It says "7-inch high-resolution touch-screen."
BTW, this is the brochure in which Lana is modeling.
Bob
To me, the integrated nav is worth the $2k (barely - $1400 seems more reasonable) strictly for the integrated nature of all the functions. That is, the audio mutes when the phone rings, the nav text-to-speach and Bluetooth phone plays through the speakers, the backup camera is integrated into the screen, etc.
I only played with the nav while parked, and the manual does state that some functions are disabled while moving (but doesn't specify which ones), but you can control virtually everything using voice commands while driving. Seriously, there's an appendix in the manual with like 9 pages of commands it accepts. You can even say things like "I'm hungry" and it will show you the closest restaurants. While driving. There's like 200 commands, and you can control the radio and change songs from the USB hub too with the voice commands. (Unlike Acuras, I don't believe you can control the climate control though. Oh well.)
That, and the fact that I'm sure someone will eventually figure out how to defeat the override anyway made me comfortable enough to go ahead and order it. (The Forester nav can be defeated simply by cutting one wire in the wiring harness which tricks it into thinking the e-brake is on. You can watch DVDs and all while driving (not recommended!))
Also, I timed the delay between starting the car, putting it in reverse, and actually having the reverse camera screen pop up. It was something like 10-12 seconds. This is way better than some cars and most aftermarket units that make you wait until the whole system is booted up, like 30+ seconds. I was very pleased.
As far as I know, the Outback nav does NOT have any support for traffic, but I could be wrong as I didn't research the XM Nav Taffic integration. However, I have not seen a single marketing mention of that being an available feature.
Probably the only thing that bummed me out is that the system does not have a 3D view, but I was relieved to read it can be easily togged between North always up and the road ahead facing up, so the latter is almost as good as 3D to me.
If anyone has more questions, I'll try to remember to post the answers when I take delivery in mid-October.
Elliot
I know they say 7" but marketing materials are often optimistic. They could be rounding up, at least.
I'm looking forward to the CVT also, supposedly the Outback is humming along near 2000rpm at 80mph! :shades:
I have traffic on my BlackBerry from Google Maps, portable Nav, seperate audio, and a fish-eye lens on the back window as my low-budget backup cam, but it would be nice to have one device tackle all of the above. $2 grand is still a steep price to pay, but as I said above, I would at least consider it.
The Forester is missing half those things (no backup cam, won't accept voice commands), so it really doesn't offer nearly as much advantage.
I don't get why Subaru has 3 systems (if you include the Tribeca). Time to standardize.
The better portables do some of those things, but not all, no backup cam for instance. No integration with the in-car audio, either, though there's a mute button on the steering wheel of the Forester (my Mazda also, but not my Toyota).
Elliot,
can you tell us the sticker/invoice vs. actual price?
Did you have to order because of the nav?
How long is the wait? 1-2 months?
Any comments from the dealer about lack of nav availability?
Thanks.
I ordered it because I had a very specific combination of features I wanted (Azurite Blue, nav, trailer hitch, puddle lights, interior LED lights, cargo nets) and I don't mind waiting. In fact, I prefer waiting in the hopes that they work out any early production bugs before mine is built.
Wait time for special orders is officially quoted at 6-8 weeks but I've been told to expect closer to 6.
I did not ask about nav availability. It's typical that early production runs include high-end models to satisfy the early adopters as well as the mainstream models expected to be top sellers. The rest will come later. I have seen several models on the lot with navs. I imagine they're just selling very quickly.
Elliot
So you aren't forced to look at the nav screen whenever the car is on if you don't want to, and I think you can completely power off the nav/head unit just like you power off the radio.
I would guess that when the car is on, the GPS locator is powered so that if you do choose to use the nav, it already knows your location.
Elliot
"Until your comments, I did not realize the Subaru bluetooth did not play through the audio, unless you have it with Nav... a biggie!"
That's not what I said. All Outbacks with the Harmon Kardon audio upgrade (with or without nav) come with Bluetooth and play through the speakers. Only the base models that don't come with Bluetooth and are upgraded with the "BlueConnect" accessory have a standalone speaker. I'm not sure if the BlueConnect accessory can also play through the speakers, but in the pictures it sure looks like it has it's own dedicated speaker.
Elliot
A VERY young 64, then, Bob
Bob
No hurry out and go find a cherry used 2005 Legacy GT wagon with a manual trans while there are still some left.
That was the epitome of a Subaru.
My old college roommate just bought one, it was very nice inside, like it in many ways, but I was surprised that it didn't have folding mirrors either.
Not sure about regular Camrys.
I haven't corroborated my theory very far, but my working theory is that decision is based on whether the cars are domestically produced in North America, which don't need the folding mirrors to squeeze closer together on the freighters from Japan. That's why the Forester and Mazda 3 do have folding mirrors.
Anyone care to dig deeper into this to see if my theory holds up with most other mid-size non-luxury family cars?
Elliot
Didn't know what thread to stick this into, but pretty funny...