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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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    beachfish2beachfish2 Member Posts: 177
    "Any suggestions????? "

    About the brakes? Sure. Buy a 2006 Avalon XLS. The one I just sold with 46,000 miles on it had the original brakes. Knowing I was going to be selling it to a woman at work, I twice (2x) tried to get the dealer to redo the brakes, or at least the front pads. They wouldn't, said everything had at least another 10k to 20k miles on it. Go figure.

    Then again, if you're riding the brakes down all of these steep hills, well, nothing is going to last too long.

    John
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    What? They didn't wanna get paid?
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    jjadusjjadus Member Posts: 3
    The Wall Street Journal is reporting this afternoon that senior officials in the U.S. Department of Transportation are temporarily blocking release of findings that could favor Toyota in an unintended acceleration probe, according to a recently retired official with knowledge of the situation.
    The story is based on an interview with George Person, who retired from the National Highway Safety Administration (NHTSA) on July 3. Person was the head of NHTSA’s recall management division and was involved in the agency’s probe into the causes of accidents in which drivers said their Toyotas suddenly accelerated on their own. He told the newspaper that since March, NHTSA has examined 40 incidents, determined 23 vehicles had accelerated suddenly, and in all 23, the electronic data recorders showed the car’s throttle was wide open and the brake was not depressed at the time of impact, suggesting driver error. “It’s become very political,” he said.
    “There is a lot of anger towards Toyota,” adding that transportation officials “are hoping against hope that they find something that points back to a flaw in Toyota vehicles.”

    To read the full Wall Street Journal story, click on:
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703999304575399523349443634.html?m- od=googlenews_wsj
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    determined 23 vehicles had accelerated suddenly, and in all 23, the electronic data recorders showed the car’s throttle was wide open and the brake was not depressed at the time of impact, suggesting driver error.

    Does anyone but me see how silly that is? To think that someone would hold their foot on the throttle wide open until they crash is beyond belief. Now if UA was happening equally among the different automakers, they may be able to convince me. It is at least 3 to 1 against all other auto makers combined. Toyota has some serious issues. And I do not believe for a minute they are telling the truth about the EDR readings. They were top secret just a few months ago with only one reader in the whole USA. All lies put out by the Toyota PR machine. And the NHTSA are clueless.
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    obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Old news. Nothing to see there that hasn't been rehashed.

    George Person is RETIRED from the NHTSA and is in good standing. Let's see how long that lasts.
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    houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Just as I have always said, nothing more than confused, panicked drivers jamming on the gas instead of hitting the brakes. Sprinkle in a few would be scammers, a floor mat or a beer can or two jammed under the gas pedal and everything is explained.

    What a colossal tempest in a teapot !!! All those idiot congressmen should have to apologize to Toyota and pay damages !!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    George Person is RETIRED from the NHTSA and is in good standing. Let's see how long that lasts.

    Says who. He was in charge of recalls and dropped the ball several times over the last several years. Funny he just retired in July after more recalls came to light that the NHTSA should have been on top of. No comment on his retirement from the NHTSA. They will not say anything negative that can be turned into a lawsuit.
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    obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    He was in charge of recalls and dropped the ball several times over the last several years.

    Hey that's par for the course when referring to civil service employees.
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    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    edited August 2010
    Gary says, "To think that someone would hold their foot on the throttle wide open until they crash is beyond belief."

    Gary, please.

    That DOES actually happen. People panic and think they are holding the brake when they are holding the gas.

    Is documented in many, many accident cases.

    As "beyond belief" as it may sound, it's a proven human panic reaction.

    Q
    DRIVING AUTOMATICS SAFELY: Why do you repeatedly advocate left foot braking of automatic cars?
    A
    Because in the absence of a clutch to separate the driven wheels from the engine it's the only way to remain in full control of an automatic, especially when manouvering. An engine may surge at any time, either due to a fault, due the engine ECU protecting the catalytic converter from unburned fuel, or due to driver error or muscular spasm. In the time it can then take to get the right foot from the accelerator to the brake a child could be run over and killed (there were three such cases within days of each other in September 2003). In addition, elderly drivers are known to have become confused and instead of braking with the right foot have stabbed the accelerator.

    Furthermore, many elderly people wear thick, heavy, welted shoes that can be more difficult to move quickly and can catch under the brake pedal.

    That's why I recommend elderly drivers to to think very carefully before making a switch from a lifetime of manuals to an automatic. Often it's too late to safely make the change. The problem with automatic transmission is that, unless the driver drives 'two footed', he or she has far less control over the car than over a manual – which is why we read of many deaths and injuries caused by 'out of control' automatics. What usually happens is that during the engine's warm-up phase, or if the engine has been over-fuelling, the electronic control unit raises engine revs to above the point at which drive is taken up in the transmission, and the car starts to move. The driver may then panic, attempt to brake heavily, but hit the accelerator instead of the brake, and the car either crashes or runs someone over. (The phenomenon even has a name: 'Sudden Acceleration Syndrome'.) You cannot predict precisely when the car's ECU will increase revs independently, so my advice is to only buy an automatic if you can teach yourself to brake with your left foot at least while manoeuvring, which keeps the car fully under control. Skilled drivers left-foot-brake automatics – and even manuals – all the time, but not everyone can get their heads around the technique for everyday driving, especially if they switch between the two types of transmission.

    Three examples of death by right foot braking of automatics:

    A retired driving instructor was manoeuvring his Mini automatic in a supermarket carpark using only his right foot as he had always taught his pupils. Either the engine surged or he had a spasm. He quickly stamped his right foot on the brake, hit the accelerator instead and the Mini went into a wall. He died of his injuries.

    A man was parking his BMW automatic in a Hong Kong multi story car park. Either the engine suddenly surged or the driver had a spasm. He tried to brake. Hit the accelerator instead of the brake. Crashed through the safety barrier and plunged six floors to his death.

    An elderly gentleman was reversing his automatic car one footed, aided by his wife of 50 years standing behind it. Suddenly the car surged and he has unable to get his foot off the accelerator onto the brake before he had run her over and killed her.

    And:

    Glass Breakage

    image

    A slip of her foot had dramatic consequences for a pensioner trying to park her car.

    Instead of pressing down on the accelerator she hit the brake and appears to have shot off the road, up several steps, through a glass wall and into the lobby of an apartment block.


    And:

    Death by incorrect pedal

    ROANOKE -- A man was killed Friday night when a woman backing out of a parking spot hit the gas instead of the brake and plowed into a group of people.

    Steven Hodel, 60, was pronounced dead at OSF Saint Francis Medical Center in Peoria.

    Hodel was trapped under a car driven by Ruby Kennell, 85, of Roanoke. Kennell was backing out of her parking spot when she saw a group of people sitting in lawn chairs along the road. She attempted to hit the brakes, but instead stepped on the gas, speeding into the group.


    And:

    Police say a woman hit the gas instead of the brake and drove through the front windows at a credit union office in Aberdeen.

    Happens. All. The. Time.
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    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Google this phrase:

    hit the accelerator instead of the brake

    and see how many stories there are of that happening.

    FAR MORE instances of that than there are "supposed" cases of 'Yota SUA.

    True, the "full mystery" of what is causing 'Yota SUA has yet to be solved COMPLETELY - but some of them are most ASSUREDLY driver error.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Most assuredly some, maybe even the majority are driver error. I call BS when Toyota and rags like the WSJ claim all Toyota UA are driver error or floor mats and throttles. And I totally disregard their new claims using the EDR, that was not considered good enough for prime time when the Saylor accident occurred. Or how they used it with the Sikes case when it does not store data just a few seconds before and after a crash. No crash, no data according to Toyota, when it is convenient.
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    beachfish2beachfish2 Member Posts: 177
    Yes, it appears that it's only you who is obsessed and denying the facts.

    In other news, I see in the morning paper that the July sales numbers are in. The top two selling cars?

    Camry
    Corolla

    The top 10 selling vehicles last month:

    F-series
    Camry
    Silverado
    Corolla/Matrix
    Civic
    Accord
    Malibu
    Ram
    CR-V
    Altima

    Source: Autodata Corp.
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    luckysevenluckyseven Member Posts: 134
    Toyota might have better picture of Sikes "incident" simply because Prius that Sikes drove more technologically advanced and stores much more operating data then Saylor's Lexus LS 350 which is beefed up Camry.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Heavily discounted sales of Camry and Corolla will not help Toyota mend. I would say the brightest spot in the Toyota sales for July was the Tundra PU.
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    obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Tundra? If that's their brightest spot they are in for trouble. Tundra sales was up in terms of percentages but couldn't even beat the Tacoma much less the Sierra or Ram.

    Pickup truck sales
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You can bet Toyota makes a lot more money on a Tundra than a Camry. Tacoma sales are dismal. I have a Nissan Frontier and that is the reason for Tacoma falling down. The Frontier is a far better truck than the Tacoma. I would expect the gap to narrow. Ford and GM are not in the same league as the Frontier and Tacoma. Hard to argue with "F" series sales. Best selling vehicles in America.
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    houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Discounted? Hmmm..I wonder how they made over 2 Billion dollars profit in the quarter just ending. A real head scratcher, eh?

    So much for Toyota being doomed !!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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    iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    alas, toyota is doomed. Notice I spelled toyota with a small "t". It's all they deserve. And they are doomed. Done. Deal.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

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    luckysevenluckyseven Member Posts: 134
    they are doomed... we just need another media campaign saying that if toyota drivers will not experience SUA they will get a swine flu instead and die off.
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    popsavalonpopsavalon Member Posts: 231
    Alas, the mitsubishi owner has spoken...................................again!
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    kq0b1kq0b1 Member Posts: 14
    Ya gotta love these TOYOTA haters. Ya gotta love the media even more to get folks to watch and read their poor reporting and getting the public worked up. Weather is hot so bloggers redirect anger at a car company. The big 3 American companies have had more recalls and not this much effort to bring them down. Yeah I said it, the big 3 are doing nothing to bring down cost with electric cars and reducing size of cars, let alone cutting back on large trucks and SUVs. . Gas gushers are on the rise again thanks to the government bail-out. Appears only folks whining are those with non-Toyota cars. Audi folks went through the same thing years ago now have a great product still years after that crisis. This thread will go on and on. Is there something else we discuss in the mean time like gas mileage, paint defects or size of the Avalon throughout thee last 5 years ?? You KIA folks speak up -- we hear you.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    There are a lot of threads to discuss the many problems that Toyota has had over the last several years. This one is specific in it covers the FACT that Toyota has far and away more complaints of runaway cars than all other brands combined. The mere fact that the NHTSA ignored the complaints for years, is why it became such a media feeding frenzy, when a high profile cop was killed in a runaway Lexus.

    Not to mention the fact that toyota has recalled nearly 10 million vehicles over the last year, for SUA, steering, brakes, suspension, hoses, rust, you name it. The fan boys would like for the rest of US to believe toyota is above the laws concerning safety. Thankfully they have been exposed.
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    houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I don't know many people who would buy a vehicle that they do not like. Unless they are really dense or quirky. Buying a car is like voting. You vote for the person you like and you buy cars that you like. That is why you laid out $40 grand for a TOYOTA. Your Ford stock will do OK without you bashing your own car company. :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The difference is I see the flaws in my Toyota Sequoia. Many over look them in their blindness. Somewhat like blindly voting for a particular political party. I hold Toyota responsible for the decrease in value of my vehicle, due to their flagrant lies and deceptions. Thankfully I don't need to sell it though it takes up a lot of room in my garage. If I wanted or needed to sell I would have a real legitimate beef with Toyoda Japan for the way they do business. If I was buying today instead of 2007, I would not consider a ToyLex. Mainly because they have nothing I like. So I hang around here to balance out all the rah rah types that believe Toyota is still the top of the heap.
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    motorcity6motorcity6 Member Posts: 427
    Having spent 2 yrs back in the early 80s with a Japanese auto supplier operating out of Battle Creek, Michigan, this current situation of problems is solved by spreading money in the right direction...Our govt wanted to slow down their sales so GM and Chrysler along with their UAW buddies could catch up..It worked for a couple months, really not long enough, but the "shakedown" was successful..$$$$ changed hands, and we find out the drivers are at fault...

    Somewhere I read that 138,000 Lexus models were being recalled due to defective valve springs covering V-8s and V-6s from 2006 thru 2008..

    I have never owned an Asian nameplate, having spent a few million miles driving 51 Big3 creations and 2 Porsches..The third stall in the garage has a 2002 Camry XLE which I maintain, only driven 4k yrly, like new, however it ain't my pick, just a good city car..period..The latest addition is a 2010 Mustang GT, fun car, noisy, but swift and American to the core..The other one is a 06 Grand Prix, not the greatest, but the S/C V-6 moves it along..fit and finish could probably be better but it is an All-American car..

    Years ago our politicans got the Asians in the USA, money changed hands, your tax $$$$$ built their state-of-art assembly plts, and your purchase of their products helps the Japanese pay their retired workers in Japan..Keep up the charity work and I am sure you will enjoy watching our Big3 go down the toilet..Sorry if I sound Pro-Detroit..however, I am restricting future purchases of GM products mfgrd before the Obama takeover, so that eliminates any new GM rides in the garage, and forget Chrysler with the Fiat bunch, so Ford is my main source for new wheels..My first car was a 35 Ford w/modified V-8, fun set of wheels-----the good old days..

    Very sorry our driving public is really left with very few choices, $4.00/gal gas will be on the pump after election..Did you ever have "Turtle" soup????
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    imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,154
    edited August 2010
    > this current situation of problems is solved by spreading money in the right direction...Our govt wanted to slow down their sales so GM and Chrysler along with their UAW buddies could catch up..It worked for a couple months, really not long enough, but the "shakedown" was successful..$$$$ changed hands

    This sounds unreal, delusional in fact. So, the cash for clunkers was set up for the foreign brands to benefit most and that benefited the GM and C and UAW how?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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    houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I don't think he is talking about cash for clunkers, he is talking about the shakedown of Toyota and the mythical SUA.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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    imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,154
    >shakedown of Toyota and the mythical SUA.

    The only shakedown going on has been the toyota-lexus folks thumbing their noses at US laws and the NHTSA, toyota working to avoid the controls that were supposed to be in place to protect US drivers these many years.

    >shakedown of Toyota and the mythical SUA.

    The SUA has been real. Look at the data. Some of the toyota fans don't want to admit and have fallen for the toyota advertisements and their attempting so hard to hide defects through the years from recalls. That helps their reputation among those who go by word-of-mouth which is often based on cars someone had a decade before.

    That's what toyo is attempting in their current commercials with an oldSupra that the person has never had to buy a new muffler for? I keep expecting his to say he hasn't had to put in gas or oil either! Those toyotas just run forever is the premise of the commercials, of course they _run_away forever if you're the unlucky winner of the defect jackpot behind Door #1, #2, or Door #3.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Look...

    'Yota can't just throw their hands up and say " we make some sucky, unsafe cars."

    They, as a business who wants to continue selling cars and making money, are required to do "damage control" and we should not hold that against them.

    For every SUA incident, there are dozens of thousands of other cars without a problem.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The SUA has been real. Look at the data.

    That is an absolute fact. There are thousands of complaints filed with the ODI. The only ones researched involved injury accidents. Why would someone file a bogus complaint back in 2005 on a case of SUA, when there was no chance of getting anything. Most were filed out of frustration with the mediocre customer service offered at toyota dealerships. Saying all those 1000s of cases of reported SUA without an accident, are driver error is beyond belief. When an accident is involved it puts things in a different light. People being dishonest by nature will try to pass the blame for their own errors.
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    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary says, "People being dishonest by nature will try to pass the blame for their own errors."

    Second part true, but not for the reason you list.

    First part laughable. Dishonest by nature....HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!! HA !!!
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You can laugh. But you are showing how little you know about man. Every philosophy I have read agrees on that subject. Enough said as this is not the forum for philosophy. My point is a person claiming SUA in an accident is less likely to tell the truth, than someone that experiences SUA without an accident.
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    larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Humans are not genetically dishonest.

    Lying comes about for self-preservation and selfishness.
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    luckysevenluckyseven Member Posts: 134
    Every car manufacturer has cases of SUA, I experienced SUA myself on old carburetor car when gas pedal spring snapped. If SUA such widespread in Toyotas why nobody could reliably duplicate it or determine a root cause by now? At this point Toyota's SUA is just like an UFO phenomena that many people are talking about but there is not a single piece of evidence.
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    wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    The UFO phenomena is at the moment not considered to be a threat to life and limb.

    SUA that has been traced down, from a now KNOWN source of failure, is mentally easy for humans to adapt to...

    An UNKNOWN.....!!!
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    houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    edited August 2010
    I think you are still confusing simple surging with runaway acceleration! People can be deceitful, like in claiming SUA when it didn't happen !

    All the haters were screaming for an investigation, they got one, didn't like the results, and now they are screaming the investigators are crooks.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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    obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/20100807_SUV_accident_kills_2_Masons.html
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't think that qualifies as SUA as related to the 1000s of legitimate cases against toyota.

    They said the owner of the SUV, Sonny Nahale'a, had a stroke about two years ago and had his vehicle converted for left-footed driving, reversing the accelerator and brake pedals.

    The driver apparently was moving the vehicle out of the parking lot for Nahale'a when he pressed the wrong pedal and hit the four men, including the vehicle's owner, friends said.

    A good case for not modifying a vehicle for the handicapped. It becomes a dangerous vehicle. So was it a Highlander or a RAV4?
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    obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Lexus RX350

    http://www.kitv.com/news/24534942/detail.html
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Can't blame the car or the driver. Maybe the owner of the car that asked a friend to move it. Just a sad accident.
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    houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    A good example of how confused and/or ill informed some of the posters are here and another example of driver error.

    They want to blame Toyota for everything from global warming to unemployment !!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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    roho1roho1 Member Posts: 318
    Discussed before but just for the record here is the list of the highest domestic part content vehicles for 2010, so how does UAW twist these facts.
    1. Toyota Camry Georgetown, Ky.
    2. Honda Accord Marysville, Ohio;
    3. Ford Escape Kansas City, Mo.
    4. Ford Focus Wayne, Mich.
    5. Chevrolet Malibu Kansas City, Kan.
    6. Honda Odyssey Lincoln, Ala.
    7. Dodge Ram 1500* Warren, Mich.
    8. Toyota Tundra San Antonio
    9. Jeep Wrangler Toledo, Ohio
    10. Toyota Sienna Princeton, Ind.
    from cars.com
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited August 2010
    They pursue the workers in the toyota factories to join the UAW.

    Any statistics on the actual percentage of US content? I know it keeps getting less. And the UAW is a big reason more D3 vehicles are being built elsewhere.
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    explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,323
    1 fender (offshore), 1 fender liner (offshore), 8 fasteners (domestic). 80% domestic content.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
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    roho1roho1 Member Posts: 318
    You may not be far off. After reading more into this domestic content issue, there is no std. way of counting.
    Even NHTSA points out that the declared North American content of identical cars could theoretically range from 11 to 53 percent, depending on whether the parts suppliers are independent or owned by an automaker.
    An old example used is a Delco battery in a Geo Prizm counts toward the vehicle's North American content (because Delco is owned by GM), while the same battery installed on a Toyota Corolla-in the same plant-doesn't.
    Even the list I posted is massaged by cars.com and they don't reveal the formula only to say the contribution to the economy is factored in.
    This all seems like a waste of time and effort. We live in Global economy now and it isn't about to change. The 50's are over.
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    kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 237,266
    I can see how you could fudge what country a part is coming from, or what percent of the part is domestic... But, it doesn't seem that they would count the number of parts to determine the percentage..

    Logically, you would think dollar value would determine the percentages... So, 80% domestic would mean that 80% of the total value of parts would be domestic (whatever domestic means)...

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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Some charts consider domestic as North America. Which includes Canada and Mexico. I agree that it should be value based on parts. Yet when you look at a circuit board assembled in the USA it may have components from 30 countries. True content rating would be a nightmare. I would like to buy US made products. I am not going to take a financial beating to do so.
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    houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Thank you for posting that chart, it is very revealing.

    Notice how many people tried to downplay the main purpose of the chart by nit picking about minor issues while remaining silent on the blockbuster information that shows the Toyota Camry is #1 in domestic content.

    Obama and the U.A.W. must be seething at information like this. The U.A.W. won't rest until they can ruin Toyota also, so expect more attacks on Toyota.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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    kq0b1kq0b1 Member Posts: 14
    Yes the Camry is the sole seller competing against many US models. The Avalon is still selling and their commercials have picked up on the airways. Bumper to to bumper warranties from the dealers are increasing to 100k on the drive train for the Toyota. Honda has buried its head in the sand.

    Ask yourself why do so many complain when the Toyota is made in America by our workers.

    This is getting like the computer commercials where PC are waged against Macs.

    Surely could it be the fact that the Japanese and Koreans operate their factories in Right to Work States could be an issue? Is competition so bad with America Top 3 that it now resorts to bashing its foreign competition? In commercials the top three US car manufactures compare themselves to Foreign cars and not themselves. Look at the commercials. Does Toyota compare itself to Honda or let alone US cars -- NO. I guess if you are smart you don't admit you have a competitor to your product if you are number 1.

    I have owned all three of American cars times over but the sweet ride of my Avalon can only be compared to my old Park Avenue. Behind Toyota I would rank the US cars as follows: Chevy/GMC Ford Chrysler. Ford I respect more because they did not participate in the bail out. Chevy and Chrysler have been pimped by big daddy government.

    Ask a Toyota owner what he/she likes about their car and you will get resell value with dependability/reliability being mentioned. Look for Kia and Hyundai to start selling more cars than the US builders due to their warranties. I think Chrysler in the long run will not make it, but time will tell.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Ask yourself why do so many complain when the Toyota is made in America by our workers.

    That is a political issue, pushed by a Pro Union government. I don't think it is related to the issue of SUA. That got rolling with one high profile accident. The complaints over the last 10 years to Toyota were generally ignored by the NHTSA and Toyota. So when it burst into flames it was a big fire.

    I personally bought a Sequoia, and the fact it was built in the USA was a deciding factor. I think it is great that Toyota builds so many vehicles in the USA. Hopefully they can keep their workers happy, so the UAW does not get their tentacles into the operation. That will send Toyota packing.
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